Why the LA Times Should Continue to Support California High Speed Rail
Today the LA Times opinion page asked the public whether they should continue to endorse the project or not:
What do you think? Should we come out in favor of this in Friday’s pages, or opposed to this? Make your best argument, pro or con.
The flippant answer would be to tell them to read all 1,216 posts on this blog since March 2008. But even I wouldn’t want to wade through all that. It’s reasonable to want a short answer.
So, here it is: Like Boulder Dam, the California Aqueduct, and Interstate 5 before it, the high speed rail project is an essential element of getting out of this economic crisis and building lasting prosperity in California. Current infrastructure is not getting the job done, and expanding what we already have would cost significantly more than building HSR. By providing savings on transportation and environmental costs, the HSR project will spur billions in new economic activity that the state desperately needs. HSR has been a proven success everywhere else it has been tried and there is every reason to believe it will succeed here.
We can go into some depth on these points:
• HSR is essential to lasting prosperity in California. The LA Times has supported the project before, and they know as well as anyone that California is changing. In the mid-20th century the state turned to freeways and cars to meet its transportation needs. That may have worked for a while. But with rising oil prices, building transportation alternatives is absolutely necessary to avoid prolonged economic weakness. After all, it’s rising oil prices that helped get us into this economic crisis in the first place.
The numbers speak for themselves:
Unemployment is sky high and showing no signs of coming down:
One big reason for the crisis is the soaring cost of our dependence on oil. California spent 60 years building a transportation system where people had to burn fossil fuels to drive or fly to their destinations, literally ripping out the efficient and electrically-powered rail systems that had fueled growth and prosperity in the state for 100 years before that. Because oil is not a renewable resource, the price will eventually rise as supplies peak and global demand soars. Sure enough, that’s exactly what happened in the last 5 years:

And all the evidence suggests gas prices will keep rising. In 2009 Deutsche Bank came out with this projection of where gas prices are headed:

When gas hit $3/gal in 2006, it burst the housing bubble and sent the state into recession. An economy built on suburban real estate serving long-distance commuters became unaffordable and in some places has literally collapsed. And it’ll keep rising, strangling recovery in the crib.
The effect would be catastrophic for the state’s already weakened economy. The effect of peak oil – the declining rate of new oil discovery combined with ever-increasing global demand – will push prices upward until there is significant demand destruction. There are two ways demand destruction can happen – either we build alternatives to driving and enable people to use mass transit to continue getting around, or people just stop driving with no alternative in place, and economic activity falls dramatically as a result.
• HSR will spur long-term economic activity. We’re not the only generation of Californians to face a profound economic crisis that required substantial change. In the 1930s, we built bridges, dams, and aqueducts even in the face of higher unemployment and a deeper Depression. We did those things because we knew not only would it create immediate jobs (estimates from the California High Speed Rail Authority suggest there could be tens of thousands of jobs created as a result of just the construction alone) but that it would also serve as the basis of long-term prosperity.
And so it has. LA still turns on the lights with electricity generated at Boulder Dam. It eats food grown with water conveyed by the Central Valley Project (a Depression Era project). Its neighbors to the north in SF use the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges to commute and move goods. And infrastructure built in subsequent years, like the California Aqueduct and the interstate freeways, merely added to the long-term economic activity.
But because oil is becoming too expensive, an alternative is needed. High speed rail from SF to LA and Anaheim isn’t the only electric passenger rail we need. But it is an important part of the need.
There are specific ways this works. One is called the green dividend. The concept is simple: money not spent on buying and burning oil is money that is spent on other things in the local economy. Portland’s green dividend is about $2 billion per year.
A 2010 US Conference of Mayors report found Los Angeles alone could reap a green dividend of $10 billion a year from high speed rail – both in the jobs it creates and the spending on oil it would allow to remain in the community, redirected toward more beneficial projects. Statewide that could reach $25 or $30 billion a year.
We also know from global experience that HSR spurs the development of mid-line cities. In California that is crucial, given the sky-high unemployment in the Central Valley. That unemployment costs the state government billions and acts as a drag on the economic potential of the entire state. California’s recovery requires a Central Valley recovery.
HSR can help provide a boost to places like Gilroy, Fresno and Bakersfield. It brings those cities into the globally competitive coastal economy, allowing residents there to get jobs on the coasts and allowing coastal businesses to set up shop inland where land values are cheaper.
• HSR is the fiscally conservative thing to do. Some “fiscal conservatives” think we should just run away from anything with a big price tag, that spending less money is always good. This is delusional. As the charts above show, we know gas prices will rise. So spending more money on oil-based transportation is absurd if there’s a more affordable alternative. And we know that California’s population will continue to grow. So spending $170 billion to expand freeways (which do not pay for themselves) and airports (which are very inefficient) on top of the increased cost of using those systems is also absurd if there’s a cheaper alternative.
I get that people wish we could just make everything that we have right now cheaper. That we could just continue along with the systems we have in place, just make them work again like they used to.
But those days are over. Cheap oil is never coming back. California will never again be able to rely on freeways and airplanes alone as the basis of our transportation system. Our choices now are to either stick with the failing system we have now and pay huge costs as a result, or invest over the next 20 years to lower our costs for the next few generations.
• HSR is a global success. It’s not like California is proposing to do something radical and untested. We’ve known for 50 years that high speed rail works. And it turns a profit – in Japan and France, Spain, Russia, Taiwan, even the Amtrak Acela. And California compares favorably to those globally successful routes.
Many HSR critics and opponents are motivated by their belief that nobody will ride trains in California. Those arguments are completely baseless, fly in the face of the available evidence, and should simply not be taken seriously. Amtrak California is setting ridership records. Remember that the independent peer review found the HSR ridership numbers to be sound.
And of course, the business plan took those numbers and showed, using extraordinarily conservative assumptions, that HSR will turn a profit. Just like every other HSR line around the globe.
• The new business plan shows a sensible path forward. One could look at the above and say “sure, that’s nice, but will THIS plan work?” The new business plan answers that convincingly. It shows how the system will grow from an Initial Construction Segment in the Central Valley to a system carrying passengers from SF to LA. It is a sound, conservative plan.
The LA Times wonders about federal funding. I do too. But it’s not just HSR that Congress is threatening. Under the Republicans, the House of Representatives appears not to want to fund anything of value at all. They don’t want to create jobs. They don’t want to provide health care or teachers or cops.
Republicans won’t control Congress forever. In fact, as soon as January 2013 Nancy Pelosi may be back in the Speaker’s chair. We need federal HSR funding, but the best way to get it is to be persistent. That’s a problem to solve, not a reason to quit.
Ultimately, the LA Times has to decide a few things for themselves. Do they think the status quo of 12% unemployment and nearly $4 gas is working, or that we can and should do better? Do they think California should be a place that builds and innovates, or a place that stagnates while living on past glories? Do they think investing in the future is a good thing or a bad thing?
I can’t answer it for them. All I can do is show them that a better future never comes cheap, but the rewards are substantial. I hope they make the right choices.

Tastes are changing
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/01/is-americas-automotive-love-affair-over-w-poll/
At first glance, Kerry Jenkins might seem to be a perfectly normal California girl, with her wispy blond hair and tanned complexion. But in a part of the country where getting an automobile has long been a rite of passage, the 19-year-old Los Angelino is quite content to live without a set of wheels, even though her parents offered to buy her a car when she graduated high school.
“I just don’t see why,” she says, ending her sentence with the Valley Girl’s upturned lilt. “I can always hitch a ride when I need it from my folks and friends. I have my bike. And I just wish more people would stop driving everywhere.”
While it’s easy to dismiss Jenkins as an oddball, the fact is she’s anything but unique these days. A number of her friends at college have also put off buying cars and industry research says that’s becoming increasingly commonplace.
….
…..
A 10-year study by the Nikkei Research Institute of Industry & Regional Economy, titled Hoshigaranai Wakamonotachi, or “Young People Who Don’t Want,” found that a generation rejecting their parents’ traditional values is especially turned off by the cars that clog the island nation’s roads.
…..
There’s also the issue of America’s economic realities. “This is likely to be the first generation to have a lower standard of living than their parents,” short of those who grew up in the Great Depression, points out John Mendel, Honda’s chief U.S. executive. The automobile has been a symbol of aspiration for those who lived the classic American dream. The Millennials, on the other hand, have to rein in their desires.
…..
While it’s unlikely the U.S. will have a widespread mass transit network capable of giving its populace an alternative to the highway anytime soon, the slow expansion of regional rail and bus lines could play at least a small factor. And for those who don’t find the need to park a car in the driveway there’s the fast-growing alternative provided by carsharing services like ZipCar.
HSR is essential to lasting prosperity in California. Read Fogler on the railroads and US GDP growth in the nineteenth century.
Unemployment is sky-high… If you want to pump money into the economy, it’s best you do it on jobs that can be done quickly and have high multipliers and immediate benefits, like rehabbing schools and other public buildings. CAHSR’s timeline’s far too long for it to be considered a recession alleviation project.
Because oil is not a renewable resource, the price will eventually rise as supplies peak and global demand soars. Good thing Californians built their way to lasting prosperity with Interstate 5!
HSR is essential to lasting prosperity in California. Re-read Fogler on the railroads and US GDP growth in the nineteenth century.
HSR is the fiscally conservative thing to do. As is not adding runways to airports, not adding lanes to roads, implementing congestion pricing and letting people adjust their travel patterns accordingly.
HSR is a global success. True, but as is CAHSR looks nothing like those systems. It’s going to take so long to build that its initial tracks will have significantly depreciated by the time LA is finally connected to San Francisco, and the likes of Japan, France and Spain wouldn’t be building HSR if it cost as much as in California.
I think CAHSR can turn into a project that Japan or France would consider building, but only if the serious threat of cancellation hangs over its head—and cheerleading isn’t going to lead to that conclusion. And after building good HSR—not the bloated system being planned right now—the second-best alternative is cancellation and focusing energies making transportation more sustainable in other ways, not supporting bad HSR.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 9:51 pm
I read that book, and I wasn’t impressed by Fogler’s views. The big difference, the big shortcoming, as I see it, was crossing the Rockies and the Sierras. That would be damned hard with a canal, if not absolutely impossible. Then there is the much better all-weather capability of rail (canals would freeze up and close in the winter), and speed that a canal couldn’t begin to match.
On top of this, in terms of overall environmental impact and overall efficiency, a railroad can approach these advantages of the canal, yet offers the better performance that comes with powered transport.
Most people don’t realize how difficult and slow travel was before railroads. To cover 20 miles per day was an amazing feat back then. Canals had a better ride quality compared with a coach, but didn’t improve on speed at all, and likely wouldn’t, considering the washing problems the C&O Canal had with powered vessels that required limiting their speed to the same as mule boats.
http://www.amazon.com/Railroads-American-Economic-Growth-Econometric/dp/0801811481
Alon Levy Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Those of us who didn’t learn that the Gang of Four were great men to be emulated and who use the destruction of the Plains Indians as a reference point for how America screws up sometimes are not going to be as enthusiastic about this whole westward expansion thing.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
On the contrary. The Gang of Four entirely agree with you that history’s not made by great men.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 10:02 pm
Knew this was around somewhere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZJR-TdH4ec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipcTYhLl83A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WY9nJ1Vq0M
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 10:06 pm
Seven days to cover what the Capitol Limited, even today, can do in a few hours. . .
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 10:23 pm
Ten days between Buffalo and New York was astounding back in the the day. I’m sure 7 days was astounding too.
Risenmessiah Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 7:51 am
Comparing 19th century railroad construction to HSR is an unfair analogy and here’s why:
Until the 1970s the Federal Government had an expansive land policy that encouraged and subsidized people moving to uninhabited parts of the country. Railroads were an important way to accomplish that and naturally created property bubbles where they went.
The shape of the network and its development is pretty unsurprising. First Baltimore to the Ohio River, then Chicago to the Mississippi River and then at last but not least Chicago to San Francisco.
All this expansionist mentality has brought up to the point today of needed a method of retrenchment. That’s where HSR comes in, as it is not tied to fossil fuels per se, and it encourages energy efficiency and density.
The other side of the coin, however, is that retrenchment reinforces the economic and political clout of San Francisco, New York City, and Chicago both regionally and nationally. (The South, meanwhile, is still up for grabs….) Now it’s easy for people in Detroit and Los Angeles and the like to criticize this as some sort of liberal fantasy… but it’s not. Because the strength of San Francisco and Chicago (for example) aren’t tied to Nancy Pelosi or Rahm Emanuel but instead their strategic geographic position.
So to quell your fear, the new business plan opens the door to upgrading other Midwestern services so that Chi-town can still realize its dreams too..
The only possible way to get the Republicans on board is to convince them that this will turn a profit and that it will benefit California economically. The argument about how this creates jobs only makes Republicans think of how this will benefit the unions. People showing up in yellow shirts always has the opposite of the desired effect. I agree with Beta and many of the other posters that there are many other better ways to create jobs, just for the sake of creating jobs.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 10:20 pm
The Republicans don’t want things to benefit California. They only want things that benefit Real America(tm)….even though Real America(tm) sucks money out of California at a prodigious rate and California won’t be able to do that if it doesn’t prosper.
StevieB Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 11:49 pm
The Republican party represents those who have wealth and power and want to keep it. The party is older as explained in the PBS Newshour report Will a Generational Divide Define 2012 Election?
As the newest generation of americans replaces the older generation there will be a political push for change. The older generation which has gathered wealth over their lives will push back. The older may hold political power for a while longer as they tend to vote more often. The report ends on an ominous note.
Donk Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:01 am
Yeah. I meant Republicans/Conservatives in California.
Andre Peretti Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Sacramento Business Journal:
The authority’s board on Thursday approved a policy guaranteeing 30 percent of the work will go to companies that are small or classified as “disadvantaged business enterprises”
That should appeal to conservatives.
Romney seeks to eliminate Amtrak. I guess we know where he stands on HSR. Although he is obviously trying to gain tea party support for the primary.
http://www.freep.com/article/20111104/NEWS07/111040352/Romney-seeks-arts-Amtrak-cuts
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 3:55 am
In other news, a possible glimpse at how things might fare in the Senate:
http://t4america.org/blog/2011/11/02/attempt-to-eliminate-funding-for-safe-walking-and-biking-fails/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+transportationforamerica+%28Transportation+For+America+%28All%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
Of particular note is who the Republicans are who voted against their own party. I suspect these people, based on what little I know of them, would be considered RINOs, at least by some, anyway.
Alon Levy Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
After spinning my hypothetical scenario about stimulus plus HSR cuts with Perry, I realized it’s actually a much likelier scenario with Romney. Romney’s 2008 advisor (at which time Romney ran as a conservative rather than as a moderate) was Greg Mankiw, a Keynesian who advocated a large fiscal stimulus consisting of tax cuts and monetary stimulus coming from commitment to inflation. In addition, Romney has no principles. As a result, it’s natural for him to throw rail and transit to the dogs to appease rural and exurban Republicans while otherwise governing in exactly the same way Obama would.
“California’s bullet train agency on Thursday formally requested a multibillion-dollar appropriation to start construction next year…The request now goes to Gov. Jerry Brown’s administration and then the Legislature, where it will face tough scrutiny by lawmakers concerned about where they will find more than $90 billion to finish the system — described as the largest infrastructure project in the nation.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-high-speed-rail-20111104,0,1321051.story
YesonHSR Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:33 am
Dont be bitter …it can be something really nice …trains…nice ones
Robert..it does not take a lot of Brain power understant that HSR is the future of our state..and you know it…work on Lowenthale the real enemy of what we want…and his PA nimbys..love YesonHSR
Robert, Clem Alon and others might want to take a look at this article by Stephen Smith:
The Day the Engineers Turned Against California HSR
A lot of people around here were mentioned.
Donk Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 9:54 am
That’s great, but nobody on Forbes.com is going to read an article about a bunch of internet commentors. He should have focused instead on the details of the cost escalation and the opportunity to cut costs.
StevieB Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:29 am
That will have to wait for the subsequent book on HSR blog posters which will necessarily require a larger scope.
Donk Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:36 am
I’ll keep an eye out for it on the NYT Best Sellers List. That book is going to be what gets HSR over the hump!
Stephen Smith Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:46 am
Unfortuantely the book is gonna hafta wait, because I’m working on a deal with Universal for a life and times of Richard Mlynarik biopic. Stay tuned!
RisenMessiah Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:58 am
Called “The Anti-Social Network”?
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Bingo.
RisenMessiah Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
Steve–
Please note that your comment about a “transportation industrial complex” is well taken BUT the ship sailed 30…40 years ago. The entire American economy was in World War II nationalized and slowly trying to make itself market oriented. That’s possible when you sell shoes and cars (which regular old people buy) but near impossible when it comes to trains, aircraft carriers, missiles…hence the similarity. It’s not a new phenomenon but a very old one…..
Beta Magellan Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:18 am
I, for one, am basking in my echo chamber pseudo-fame.
Stephen Smith Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Believe it or not, that post got more hits in one day than all but one that I’ve posted since getting the blog about a month and a half ago. (Not sure if that says more about the post, or the blog…)
Whaddya know – some people are actually interested in what smart people think about California’s $100 billion spending plans!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
“Whaddya know – some people are actually interested in what smart people think about California’s $100 billion spending plans!”
Hey, I think that’s great–we have a lot of interest in this! Of course, as noted, where there is a lot of interest, there is also a lot of controversy and argument. I guess it comes with having more people and more opinions around.
I do find it a bit unusual, though, that you had all those views, but nobody has posted comments on the Forbes site. I wonder why that would be so?
Also, have you been following this blog (and assorted links) long enough to take note of other things, like the costs of alternatives, the cost of highway subsidies (many of which are hidden), and an apparent generational break in opinions about trains and transit in general?
Stephen Smith Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
I do find it a bit unusual, though, that you had all those views, but nobody has posted comments on the Forbes site. I wonder why that would be so?
Try to post a comment and you’ll see why – it’s virtually impossible. That’s by far my least favorite part of blogging at Forbes (but unlike at my old blog, there’s [minuscule amounts of] money involved).
Also, have you been following this blog (and assorted links) long enough to take note of other things, like the costs of alternatives, the cost of highway subsidies (many of which are hidden), and an apparent generational break in opinions about trains and transit in general?
See my old blog. There’s about 300 posts on those themes. (You’ll have to dig back a while, though, to get the ones posted under my name rather than by Emily Washington.)
Spokker Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 12:34 am
“Believe it or not, that post got more hits in one day than all but one that I’ve posted since getting the blog about a month and a half ago.”
Everybody loves a good circle jerk now and then. If I had known about it I would have brought the lotion.
Peter Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 9:55 am
In the grand scheme of things, the opinions of Robert, Clem, Alon, Yonah, et al are completely irrelevant. As the article pointed out. I’m still not sure what the point behind the article is.
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:43 am
The article does introduce welcome focus on the compulsion to overbuild and gold-plate.
Meantime small-time scandals pop up:
http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/280451-120-per-hour-high-speed-rail-meetings-called-into-question
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:51 am
I think the author should have included a mention of the Altamont discussion site where one poster, Old Pole Burner, who obviously is heavy into railway signalization, has made numerous damning and specific remarks about the high cost of all transit projects.
OPB brings a different perspective in that he stresses that the “pigification” of the Acela was necessary to keep passengers from being squished in wrecks. He makes a strong argument in favor the the AAR-FRA “dinosaur” regs. Refreshing to hear a diiffering pov.
Peter Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:54 am
Not all people get all their news from altamontpress. It’s interesting that shortly after I see something on there, you post about it on here.
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:01 am
yep, I plead guilty.
I don’t think the GOP will kill Amtrak; it survived Ronald Reagan, who was from the McCarthyite generation which had been indoctrinated that railroads were obsolete.
I suggest a lot of Repubs will support filling the gap between Bako and LA via Tejon. Especially if it can be made to accommodate some freight as well.
Beta Magellan Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:23 am
Although they were willing to kill subsidized flights to rural (I’d guess GOP-leaning) areas, although I don’t know if that was just political maneuvering or based on an actual conviction that those should have been cut. If Amtrak cancellation can’t be used as a cudgel against Democrats, there’s some chance they’ll lose interest in it.
Peter Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:23 am
Has Old Pole Burner ever watched the FRA videos comparing an FRA-compliant passenger train crashing into a simulated freight train with a passenger train modified with some CEM elements?
FRA-compliance didn’t help much in the Glendale or Chatsworth accidents. CEM would have gone a LONG way to reduce casualties in those accidents.
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
http://www.altamontpress.com/discussion/read.php?1,63362,63453#msg-63453
OPB seems to favor the traditional heavy rail approach to safety as it is time-tested in the field. It is an argument that has to be considered.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
The FRA is considering it and coming the the conclusion that crash energy management is the way to go. They same way automobiles moved to it in the 70s.
Footage from FRA tests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVpcfZeokUI
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
Sorry to be so dumb, but what is the “CFR”?
Eric M Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
CFR
Stephen Smith Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Duh, obviously it means Căile Ferate Române – the Romanian national railway company!
Peter Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
“time-tested in the field”
As in has been shown to be a complete failure in saving lives.
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
The argument is that structural reinforcement, which does come at the cost of more weight, will lessen the tendency to telescope. Seems logical to me that extra strength would lower the body count.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
If an American “professional” is making an statement about passenger rail engineering, s/he’s wrong. End of story.
FYI Pacheco “seems logical” too. Just as it “seems logical” that 1 ton weights should fall faster than 1 pound weights.
synonymouse Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
The rr’s went from wood cars to steel to stainless steel with positive results. I suppose there is a limit to the benefits of structural integrity but the exact point where the trade-off begins is debatable.
Joey Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
There’s a lot of actual evidence to suggest that for passenger trains, it’s much closer to the UIC spec than the FRA spec.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 5:57 pm
“The rr’s went from wood cars to steel to stainless steel with positive results.”
The story is a bit more complicated than that. Equipment was, as noted, built in wood, and was actually quite refined by the enc of the wood car era around 1900-1910. Most people don’t know it, but later wooden cars (after 1875 or so) had some form of a wooden truss side in addition to the well-known and visible truss rods under the car, and used quite a bit of glue in their construction. Later cars could stand at least derailments surprisingly well, although telescoping always was a serious threat.
The introduction of metal cars came about partially because really large timbers for the underframe were becoming harder to get (at least in initial construction, it was preferred that these be continuous, a bit of a problem when you’re looking for a straight piece of wood that’s almost 80 feet long), and also out of concerns for fire protection in the tunnel approaches to a then-new Penn Station in New York.
There were also concerns about buff strength. The original requirements came from the Post Office. Mail cars were very usually at the front of the train, and being between a heavy locomotive and a string of heavy Pullmans was not a good place to be if the train hit anything solid, or even in a derailment. The postal workers apparently had some clout in this matter by the late 1890s, and were motivated by a relatively high mortality rate among their members in wrecks. They were also apparently able to obtain sympathy from the public and their management, and the result was the first buff strength laws. As the car builders had to build new mail cars to this standard, it made sense to use the same standard for all cars. This would be the era of the classic heavyweight passenger car, with some of the cars approaching 85 tons in weight and running on six-wheel trucks. The steel was often an alloy that included a bit of copper to help keep rust under control.
These cars, particularly the early ones, had a serious flaw in that much of the strength was concentrated in a massive underframe. The bodies above the frame were (relatively) weak tin boxes; ironically, you could still have telescoping incidents in serious wrecks. Heavy collision posts and platforms that were designed to crush and absorb some of the shock helped, but the cars were still very heavy, requiring a lot of power to move, and particularly to accelerate.
The streamline movement was as much a revolution of lightweight construction as anything else. As noted, the Budd Company was a pioneer in this with stainless steel construction using a special welding process. The non-rusting characteristics of stainless steel enabled Budd to eventually design an underframe that had some enclosed (i.e., tubular) sections, and in addition to this, Budd also reincorporated the 19th century truss in the car side (in stainless steel, of course), and was also able to use its characteristic corrugated car roof as a structural member. The net result was the ability to typically cut weight from over 80 tons to about 50, which I believe was approaching the weights of the wooden car era.
Budd had a patent on that welding process (stainless didn’t take to normal welding techniques), so the other builders tried to use other materials and fabrication methods. Pullman went in for Cor-Ten and high-strength carbon steels; American Car and Foundry tried aluminum. Both materials were great when the cars were new, but both also suffered horribly from corrosion as the cars aged. These flaws were serious enough that Amtrak usually passed on anything not built by Budd when it was originally formed, and today, almost all of its equipment, with the exception of Horizon cars, is of stainless steel, utilizing the now commonly available shot-welding process pioneered by Budd.
Max Wyss Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 3:07 am
@D.P. Lubic: The biggest issues with aluminium were in its early years of use that it was used just like steel, meaning that the design was the same as if it were steel (no matter whether stainless or “regular”). Only with the time the designers learned how to design with aluminium. With a good design, you achieve better longitudional strengths of a carbody using aluminium than using steel…but you have to know what you are doing.
About CorTen steel: this is a pretty ingenious type of steel, because it builds a thin layer of corrosion products which is non-permeable for water. In order to do that, it has to get wet and then dry again, over and over. This is well the case in railroad application (as opposed to buildings).
However, one of the advantages of stainless steel is that it can do it without, or with little, paint (from the technical point of view). So, maintaining a proper paint coating is less an issue.
Alon Levy Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
1 ton weights do fall faster than 1 pound weights, assuming they’re of similar shape and made from the same material. Think air resistance.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Thank you, Captain Aspergers! But do note you neglected other important corrections.
Stephen Smith Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Richard – I might question the sanity of anyone on this form who doesn’t have an autism or OCD spectrum disorder. (That might be a fun off-topic comment thread – what’s your diagnosis?)
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Simple diagnosis (save on your 64gb smartphone for handy reference):
Y chromosome → social impairment.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 11:19 am
That’s because the ones without a Y chromosome are defining the standards.
RisenMessiah Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:41 am
We’re famous!!!! Not.
I think it’s up to Robert to decide how to handle this, but one solution is to just allow the “Usual Suspects” to be linked on the blog roll in exchange for using their real names in the comments.
I agree that this particular article is only going to be used indirectly (Fox News Headline: “Train Geeks Turn on HSR”) but it might be good from a branding point of view to let the casual commenters here associate with the “known” entities. And if synonymouse is feeling it, maybe he can come out of the shadows too.
http://www.calwatchdog.com/2011/11/03/real-cost-of-high-speed-rail-22-trillion/
:)
Are other HSR routes around the world as nightmarish as the California one seems to be, with multiple mountain passes, and the most profitable route segment so long? Do the Europeans have HSR routes like this? In Spain, I’ve been told the trains run mainly on the plains, so it’s not Spain. Maybe Japan has mountains. They certainly have earthquakes. I don’t know. Bottom line – maybe you guys are being a bit rough on the CaHSR Authority.
One factor that surprises me about California is how primitive the existing rail system is, considering that California is our most populous state, and most of our consumer goods arrive via west coast ports. Looking on Google Satelite View at the twisty route over Altamont Pass, and that precious UP track along SR 99, it’s hard to believe that these are important routes, and not tracks for excursion trains. They’re nothing like Chicago, where BNSF alone has a 3-track line and a 2-track line coming into the city, and the UP has umpteen lines.
I think the CaHSR Authority had big problems on its hands, even before it had to deal with angry Republicans, angry farmers, angry suburbanites, angry high schools, and now angry bloggers. Give them a break.
Stephen Smith Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Don’t quote me on this, but I’ve been told that there’s a molehill or two in this place you call “Japan.” (I’m personally not so convinced that such a land exists, but the pirates and slave traders I’ve spoken to all swear up and down that it does.)
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Pretty much all of them. The low hanging fruit has been harvested (with the obvious exceptions of the comparatively-straightforward-if-you’re-not-Anglophone SF-LA-SD and Sydney-Melbourne corridors.)
You really owe it to yourself to learn about teh googles.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 6:13 pm
An important question: Do any of these mountainous routes have tunnels crossing earthquake faults, as one of the proposed routes does here (which has been heavily promoted by a blooger on this site)?
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 6:15 pm
!!@#$%&!!! No edit function!! I meant to write “blogger,” not “blooger!”
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Jesus Christ.
J … a … p … a … n … space … e … a … r … t … h … q … u … a … k … e
joe Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 8:09 pm
F … a … i … l
Beta Magellan Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 6:28 pm
This took me a grand total of eight seconds:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_High_Speed_Rail#Civil_works
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikan_Tunnel#Surveying.2C_construction_and_geology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwate-Ichinohe_Tunnel
D. P. Lubic Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 9:18 pm
All challenging tunnels, but it doesn’t look like any cross faults as such.
Did a little more looking myself, and some tunnels do cross faults, but from what I see, it’s not something you really want to do. . .
http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/rockreinforcement/edition2pdf/page91.pdf
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/tunnel/pubs/nhi09010/13.cfm
http://shake.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp/seismic-fault/workshops/papers/01.pdf
Clem Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 9:42 pm
There’s a nice BART tunnel through the Hayward Fault (near the new Caldecott bore now being built through an active fault…)
I guess it’s all about braking distance when a wall suddenly slips in front of you.
Michael Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:27 pm
The BART tunnel crosses the Hayward and creep has happened in the tunnel for years. There is a paper on the process that I’ve read but don’t know where I’ve have (if I have) saved it. BART can’t really fix it, if I remember the conclusion of the paper.
The highway tunnels are much further up the hill, beyond the fault.
For aerials, the 280-92 interchange above San Mateo is about as close as there is to something on top of that fault.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 12:13 am
BART’s plan for the (inevitable, but unpredictable) failure of the Berkeley Hills Tunnel is __________. (There is no plan.)
Note that the major ($$$) contemporary seismic retrofitting program focussed on the Transbay Tube and priority to the A- and M-line structures necessary to provide access to the Hayward and Colma yards. That’s the core that believed to be most survivable.
Here is a little ancient BART engineering history I managed to salvage from the web oubliette.
Joey Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 12:27 am
No. Don’t say that. You’ll make me think that the opportunity to widen the tunnels and replace the Pittsburg-Baypoint line with something that could actually integrate with other rail systems isn’t just some rail fanboy’s pipe dream.
Andre Peretti Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 7:55 am
“Are other HSR routes around the world as nightmarish as the California one seems to be”
Marseille-Nice, TGV Med’s last leg, is even worse. It has it all: sprawl, rich NIMBYs, protected zones, no plain between the mountain and the sea. 1/4 of it will be tunneled and the rest mostly elevated with lots of long viaducts, all anti-seismic.
RFF estimates the cost at €11.5 billion for 100 miles. Others say €16 billion is more realistic. No private firm has shown any interest for a build-and-operate contract since the line is very unlikely to ever pay for its construction costs. And the state and region are endlessly discussing about their respective shares of the costs.
Thus, the problems are not unlike California’s, with one difference: in spite of the wrangling on financial details, there is political unanimity about the project itself.