Jerry Hill Becomes an HSR Denier
Today’s San Francisco Chronicle has a big section on high speed rail. Some of the articles are up online, some won’t be until 3AM on Monday. Included are:
Jim Wunderman, president and CEO of the Bay Area Council, writes about HSR as The Test of Our Generation:
Today, our generation faces its test. Three years ago, voters approved bonds to help build the largest public works project in the state’s history: a system of high-speed, electric passenger trains. The project is under assault with almost the same words flung at the Golden Gate Bridge – it’s too expensive, it’s impractical and it will ruin the neighborhood. Some leaders, sensing shifting political winds, are working to find a way to get to “no.” The business community of our region disagrees. We want to find a way to get to “yes.”
This discussion takes place against the backdrop of a state population projected to reach 50 million by 2050. If we do not build high-speed rail at a current price tag of between $40 billion and $60 billion, we will instead be forced to build an estimated $100 billion worth of new highways, airport runways and departure gates.
This is exactly the right kind of vision for California, the one voters endorsed and embraced in November 2008. When HSR opponents said we couldn’t afford it, voters rejected their claims and realized we should build new infrastructure just as we did during the Depression. Jim Wunderman, who represents the Bay Area’s largest employers, is in no position or mood to be profligate or wasteful with the public’s funds. Those businesses wouldn’t allow it. And they understand very well that California needs HSR in its future if the state is to prosper.
And like good businessmen, they know a good deal when they see one. If HSR’s price tag is as high as $60 billion, it’s still a $40 billion savings to the state. These businesses are also well aware of the cost of oil, and do not share the blind ignorance of most HSR critics to the serious problems that our dependence on fossil fuels creates.
Bob Doty’s article isn’t online yet, but CHSRA board chairman Tom Umberg’s article is, emphasizing the better travel that HSR will inaugurate (and that’s a serious consideration given how digital devices and the growing inconvenience of air travel, along with the soaring cost of oil, are making existing forms of travel less ideal).
One important article is by Frederick Jordan and Darlene Mar, two advocates for minority contractors in the state. Ignore the bizarre title the article was given – their complaint is substantive, that the CHSRA has been excluding women- and minority-owned contractors. Their recommendations include:
That’s why small and minority business groups are calling on the state and federal government to:
– Demand transparency and accountability in the High-Speed Rail Authority’s distribution of funds;
– Insist that all potential contracting opportunities be opened up to all interested firms through broad public outreach and selection; and
– Put a stop to the Rail Authority’s practice of simply funneling contracting dollars to large international firms.
We also are calling upon the Obama administration to stop all federal funds to the project until the Rail Authority overhauls its restrictive procurement system and reassigns components of the mega-contracts already awarded to businesses that reflect the full diversity of our state.
It’s certainly worth looking into. And I’ve never been a fan of sending contracting dollars to large international firms if there are locally owned contractors that can do the same work. Of course, since the US has ignored HSR for the last 30 years, we don’t have a strong base of domestic expertise in the matter. But where local contracting can happen, it should happen.
The most important of the SF Chronicle articles is by Assemblymember Jerry Hill, who represents the 19th district based in the north Peninsula. In the article, Hill outs himself as an HSR denier – someone who refuses to accept the facts about the HSR project, its success in the US and around the world, and instead peddles often-debunked claims that he should know better than to repeat. It’s a sad thing to watch:
I voted for Proposition 1A because it seemed to be good public policy. Done right, high-speed rail has the potential to meet the future transportation demands of California’s growing population by providing a green alternative to new freeway lanes and airport runways.
But much has changed in the past three years, including the reliability and accuracy of the cost and ridership projections on which Proposition 1A was based, and ballooning costs and uncertain revenue potential.
Actually, the cost and ridership projections remain reliable and accurate. As the project proceeds in its engineering, the details become known more clearly, and the cost estimates become more reliable, not less. As to the ridership projections, we’ll deal with those in a moment, but the key is that their reliability has never been disproven, and the evidence from around the globe and the US is clear that HSR will have high ridership and high revenue. Hill appears to ignore that evidence, as most deniers do. The costs are rising, yes, but as Jim Wunderman pointed out it’s still a good deal.
Hill’s argument rests, as do those of most HSR critics, on a complete misunderstanding of the evidence. He doesn’t do himself any favors by completely misreading the situation in Washington DC:
California faces many challenges that are certain to be exacerbated by the gridlock in Washington and upheaval on Wall Street. Despite success in securing stimulus dollars, future federal funding will be reduced significantly in the coming years. Control of the House of Representatives has also changed, increasing the likelihood that funding for high-speed rail will be on the chopping block.
So too will funding for schools, libraries, public safety, old people, young people, middle-aged people, health care, pollution cleanup, scientific research, the arts, and so on. But what Hill doesn’t realize is that this is a temporary situation. Democrats lead the polling for the House of Representatives 51-44, which is about where they were at in 2006 when they retook the House and made Nancy Pelosi speaker. Speaker Pelosi is strongly committed to HSR, and she’d find a way to get the California project the funding it needs.
Hill is basically using the Tea Party reign of terror to justify killing HSR in California. That will look particularly stupid in January 2013 with Pelosi again wielding the speaker’s gavel, with Democratic control of the Senate and Obama still in the White House. (Of course, if Obama loses, saving HSR will be the least of our worries.)
Hill continues:
In Sacramento, the Legislature is evaluating state programs as we struggle to balance revenues and expenditures. California has had to cut more than $30 billion from its budget in the last three years. The state has important needs, including more than $20 billion owed to its schools and colleges.
The question we need to ask is: “Does high-speed rail make fiscal sense – and is now the time?” In 2008 we were told that federal funding would make up nearly half of the money needed to complete the first phase of the $33 billion project, with the private sector contributing 25 percent, and the rest to be picked up by state and local governments.
Jerry, let me introduce you to the concept of investment. It is a simple and effective concept. You spend some money up front and you get more than that in return. This is the same concept that led California voters to approve bonds to build the Golden Gate Bridge in November 1930 during the depths of the Depression. Hill apparently believes the Golden Gate Bridge shouldn’t have been built. That bridge, and the Bay Bridge, and Shasta Dam, and other projects put people to work in the near term building infrastructure that has lasted for nearly 80 years. That’s a good investment.
So too is HSR. I am sure that Hill would love to have new revenue for the state budget. He’s in luck. HSR will have a green dividend of at least $10 billion a year (for LA alone) and a lot of that money will show up in Sacramento via taxes. That more than covers the cost of building the HSR system. And in an era of rising gas prices (which Hill never once mentions) it will help individuals and businesses save a lot of money.
Hill continues down the road of delusion:
Information released this week indicates that the cost of constructing just the first phase of high-speed rail from San Francisco to Anaheim has swelled to more than $60 billion. Federal, state and local funds committed to date make up less than a quarter of the actual cost.
The Legislative Analyst’s Office reported that the “availability of the funding necessary for the new system is highly uncertain.” Were California to borrow money to fund the remaining 75 percent of the project costs without funding from other sources, opponents estimate it would create an annual obligation of more than $4 billion on our general fund for 30 years.
This would raise the state’s annual debt service payment to a dangerous level and siphon funding from other programs and infrastructure projects.
It certainly would, which is why it’s not likely to happen. If neither the federal government nor the private sector contribute another dime, we build what we can in the Central Valley, put people to work on building infrastructure that has independent utility, and wait for the Tea Party madness to pass so we can pick up where we left off. Hill’s nightmare scenario isn’t going to materialize, as much as he wants us to believe it will.
The anticipated operating costs for the system also appear improbable in light of the fact that under Proposition 1A, the project cannot have an operating subsidy.
The High-Speed Rail Authority’s 2009 Business Plan estimated that a ticket from San Francisco to Los Angeles would cost $105, which amounts to about 24 cents per mile for the 432-mile trip. However, in Europe and Japan, which successfully operate high-speed rail systems, the charge averages 44 cents per mile, according to research by the Community Coalition on High Speed Rail. The authority’s 2009 business plan was not realistic.
Ah, now Hill is quoting research by known anti-HSR folks. What CC-HSR didn’t tell Hill is that all those HSR systems have high ridership and cover their own operating costs. That includes the Amtrak Acela. But hey, it’s good to know that Hill just believes whatever bullshit people tell him without actually pausing to do his own research.
Ridership projections from the authority have been called into question. Studies conducted by UC Berkeley and the Federal Railroad Administration found the authority’s ridership projections may be highly inflated.
They said that the ridership numbers may be right, they may be too high, and they may be too low. But the notion that the numbers would be inflated is absurd to anyone who has actually looked at the performance of HSR around the globe. The Acela is packed. So is the Russian Sapsan high speed train between Moscow and St. Petersburg. So too is Spain’s AVE between Madrid and Barcelona. So too is Taiwan’s HSR. And so too are California’s own slower intercity trains.
Obviously the exact ridership projections matter, but only for figuring out the details of the financing. There is no reason at all to believe that HSR ridership claims have been wildly inflated. There is more than enough evidence from around the world to prove that won’t happen. Only a denier – someone who still refuses to believe something even after having been shown the evidence – would still claim HSR ridership could be low.
Hill goes on to dig his hole deeper:
Voters like myself were under the impression that if we approved the $9.95 billion in Prop. 1A, the rest of the money to complete the project would pour in. Now it remains unclear whether the private sector is willing to finance the project due to cost increases and other uncertainties.
If you were under that impression then you probably aren’t fit to serve in a state legislature. Money never “pours in” for any project, especially a big one. These days, getting funding for anything is tough. But the private sector is NOT yet saying no. They just want to see a strong federal commitment. In Florida the private sector agreed to cover cost overruns. They were that confident HSR was a good deal. A Tea Party governor, Rick Scott, rejected it anyway. Should we send Jerry Hill an application for membership in his local Tea Party organization?
Where do we go from here? The answer will come soon. The authority’s newest business plan – its third – is scheduled to be released in October. It will tell us if cost estimates have been modified and if the funding and passenger projections are sound.
I hope that this project can proceed for many reasons, including job creation, modernizing our transportation system and reducing our reliance on energy imports. We should explore combining existing rail infrastructure throughout the state with the high-speed rail system to help defray project costs.
But if the numbers in the business plan are unrealistic, the project should be put on hold to allow Californians to vote on whether they are willing to absorb the additional costs or want to pull the plug.
Nowhere in here did Hill acknowledge that the cost of new freeways and airport gates is at least $100 billion – and it wouldn’t help relieve traffic, reduce dependence on oil, or create a green dividend. Nowhere did he discuss the global and American success of HSR. He only tossed in job creation and energy independence as sops at the end to try and convince people he’s not really against HSR, despite his flawed and evidence-free attacks.
No, he appears to have instead been cowed by a few of his NIMBY constituents who have convinced him that HSR is a bad idea. That’s a shame. It’s up to us as HSR organizers to ensure that more legislators don’t get swayed by bad evidence and that Sacramento, like the people of California as a whole, remains strongly behind the HSR project.

1. Whatever happened to the post about the Spanish HSR conference up in Berkeley?
2. I would find it hard to believe that I am the only to find it inappropriate and offensive to use the terms “denier” and “denialism”with regards to HSR opponents when such terms are typically used to refer to Holocaust deniers.
3. Your rebuttals would do rather better if you got a bit more into the technical side of things. As it stands, most of it comes across as “Nuh-uh!” There is no reason for anyone reading this to believe your statement that the foreign HSR systems cover their own operational costs (which they do, you simply didn’t show it and expect to be taken at your word, which is only effective when preaching to the choir, in which case, why bother with such a post in the first place?). That’s not helpful at swaying opponents at all. Delving into the technical aspects and showing hard data would make that more helpful.
Additionally, had you looked into the CC-HSR claims, you could have easily blown their claims out of the water as they belong to the category of “lies, damned lies, and statistics.” 44 cents per mile is based on peak hour next day TGV/Shinkansen travel on the busiest routes and including VAT (at least in France). Average fares and other lines are substantially lower and more in line with the 24 cents per mile rate.
4. In line with the above, your statement about the ridership being proven by packed trains elsewhere is meaningless. Two trains per hour with four hundred passengers each does not mean that ridership models calling for six or more trains per hour of similar capacity is justified. Quite frankly, there are rather reasonable grounds for questioning the ridership models, unless you honestly believe that Anaheim will somehow outperform Los Angeles. The fact that the Phase 1 ridership models have substantial ridership from Phase II areas is also somewhat uninspiring in confidence.
Tom McNamara Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 7:16 am
I think Robert’s pretty busy with his day job at the moment. He hasn’t found a way to get on the payroll yet (j/k) and until then, commenting on what is in the newspaper is about the best he can do. It would be great if he could get people in Washington, Sacramento, etc…to write something every so often.
The blog exists as a tool of advocacy first, then journalism…as most blogs are. Still, I realize it does get tired if every post is about “lies” spewed by Bay Area politician X. But given that Robert is mostly reliant on the Fourth Estate to get his information…I’m not sure what else to expect.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 7:29 am
I’m reliant on much more than just the Fourth Estate, but I don’t always post on those matters since they’re not always fit for public consumption. And one reason I react to what’s in the media is that can shape the public narrative around HSR. So pushing back helps ensure that people like Hill don’t get a free pass.
As to Paulus Magnus’ question about the other topics, I can’t cover everything. Guest posts are always welcome.
Speaking of, I was able to look at your proposed post, and I have some edits I’ll get to you later tonight…
Tom McNamara Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 8:06 am
Que sera sera. Try to develop your contacts so that you can leak information in a predictable pattern for readers. I really don’t give a rip about what type of sandwich van Ark likes. What happened to Dennis and Rafael? Did they get told not to post anymore by their bosses?
I’ll look at your edits, of course, Let me know when you respond how often you would like to submit material too…I don’t want stuff to pile up on you if I’m churning it out too fast.
David Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 11:50 am
I see your point regarding “denialism,” but its most common usage today is in reference to climate change. The usage was generalized beyond the Holocaust by AIDS researchers to describe those who place belief over scientific evidence. Denialism as a concept does exist outside of discussion of the Holocaust.
VBobier Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 5:38 pm
Agreed, Denialism is someone saying that something like the population growing to 50 million won’t happen as is mentioned here…
Jerry Hill was also on KPIX TV (CBS ) in an interview with Phil Matier which can be seen at:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/video/6150960-is-high-speed-rail-stopped-dead-in-its-tracks/
As a Democrat he is one of the few of the party caucus who is even willing to take a realistic examination of what is happening here.
And BTW, the work of William Grindley and Bill Warren shows that costs to the public over around thirty years is of the order of $140 billion; numbers which have some real substance, not just numbers pulled out of thin air.
See: http://vimeo.com/26685394 and also
Robert, you’ve got this one wrong. This isn’t about Jerry Hill. It’s about CA’s Capitol Hill.
Messengers are easier targets.
Dear Mr Cruikshank:
There are many positive things about high speed rail, especially its convenience for business people. I use Acela and am glad it is there. However, I take issue with your and some others’ notion of “investment” and I especially disagree with the analogy you try to draw with the Golden Gate Bridge, Shasta Dam, or (elsewhere) the Interstate Highway system.
Your definition of a “good investment” above appears to be whether it is going to last a long time. That’s a poor benchmark — plastic bags would fit that description as does the Spruce Goose. Instead, an investment needs to be measured on the extra returns it will generate above baseline. The Golden Gate bridge enabled the development of Marin, a goldmine for modern California. Shasta Dam provides water and power, enabling economic development in a wide swath. The interstate highways (while actually justified on national security grounds at the time) have proven to be an enormous positive multiplier by reducing freight expense and moving people and goods orders of magnitude more quickly than before.
HSR, by contrast, does not enable (in the investment sense) anything that does not presently exist. It does nothing for freight. People move back and forth between SF and LA every day in about the same amount of time. And it may actually damage economic centers such as towns and farms through which it passes (I realize you disagree with that).
I think you are right to focus on this as an investment: possibly $100 billion to build the whole network and the same again in interest payments. So what is our return? Since HSR is not enabling anything new and it does not even support US technology, the marginal economic multiplier will be modest. Therefore, proponents seek to measure ROI in “oil saved” and “carbon not emitted” kinds of figures. That is fine, but then it seems to me you should address whether that $100 billion would not more wisely be invested in CA wind farms or solar thermal energy plants — which would not only provide a much higher ROI on these metrics for Californians over HSR, but which could also enable new technology companies right here in California, rather than Germany, Japan or China. And before someone says it, no, we cannot invest in both — there really are limits to how much borrowing the State of California can do.
I appreciate your posting a blog and opening for comment. I appreciate the sincerity of your advocacy. But if you want to talk about HSR as an investment, then I think you have to think like a real investor. HSR is a frivolity — from an investment ROI perspective — compared to the other infrastructure you cite.
Attacking Hill is trending toward desperation, as he represents one of the most successful areas in California and clearly is articulating the opinion of the majority of his constituents. He knows what he is doing. The question is rather does the CHSRA know what it is doing?
The CHSRA needs an “intervention” Calling Dr. Howard – calling Dr. Fine. The Stooges would have laid out a better route.
Robert: “and instead peddles often-debunked claims that he should know better than to repeat.”
When, where, and by whom have these claims been “often-debunked?”
How does one change the mind of Hills’ small but growing number constituents that believe that HSR will build a I-380 or Millbrae Avenue sized freeway overpass through the middle of Burlingame?
What about the “fact” HSR will cut down every tree in Burlingame?
What about the “fact” that HSR will destroy/take through eminent domain; every house and business along Carolan Ave. and along California Drive here in Burlingame?
This is what we are up against.
Once again, the anti-HSR folks are well organized and very good at getting their message out relatively uncontested. There are virtually no organized pro-HSR forces out there to debunk the claims made by CARRD, CC-HSR, Boondoggle, etc.
Tom McNamara Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 7:20 am
No, what “we are up against” is that redistricting is going to eliminate a couple Bay Area seats in the legislature and Congress on the Peninsula soon. So, every local politician is pulling their best very of the Tea Party attempting to act as if they are an “outsider” and that they fear change….
There’s so much hysteria at the moment its hard to take anything elected officials say seriously. Hopefully sanity returns in December of 2012….
tony d. Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 8:20 am
We had a vote in 2008 in which the voters of CA, including a vast majority on the Peninsula, said YES to HSR.
That’s all Hill should be concerned about, not a bunch of old hags who can yell and scream at town hall meetings.
By the way, if we get a blended system from SJ to SF which largely remains within the current ROW, what’s there to be against?
Save four-track ROW for after old hags pushing up daisy’s.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:00 am
And we had a vote in 2008 in which the voters said yes to Prop 8 and a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, yet I doubt you would be willing to advance that same argument.
tony d. Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:22 am
Apples and oranges (that was easy). Comparing improved transportation to discrimination? OK!
Spokker Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:30 am
The point is that things change. The people are not absolute or unchanging. There may be a mandate for high speed rail in California but it’s fading as time goes on. If the repeal proposition gets on the ballot, then we’ll see how the mandate has changed for sure.
synonymouse Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 11:27 am
The inherent problem with the CHSRA is its genesis – it is the spawn of a monolithic urban political machine lodged in power, like the PRI in Mexico not long ago. Incompetence and influence peddling are the inevitable outcome. Power corrupts and so on. The Palmdale deviation is as inevitable as BART broad gauge.
Politically, the US is a bandwagon country. Prohibition is a classic example, wherein a militant minority can impose its agenda on society. Institutionally the US is a juggernaut country. Nationally the Interstate Highway System is a good example; locally the BART empire. Manifest destiny on steroids. Generally these phenomena have to run their natural course. Whether they are maintained or not depends on their level of use and vulnerability. See Roman aquadects. Interestingly barbarians were able to starve out Rome early on simply by knocking out a section of the aqueduct. Something to think about when deploying stilts wllly-nilly.
Megaprojects also run the risk of being out-tricked by cheap innovation. Some techies are suggesting that robotics will allow “platooning” of automobiles in the near future.
Personally I predict quantum cybertech will upend society. Imagine what real time human behavior predictors would do to the stock market. Adios speculation.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
early on simply by knocking out a section of the aqueduct. Something to think about when deploying stilts wllly-nilly.
Something to think about when you are drilling tunnels across fault lines too
synonymouse Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:58 pm
A tunnel does not have to cross a fault to get taken out. All vulnerable
But those miles of stilts would be a perfect bullseye. Remember those newsreels of carpet bombing in Vietnam. Aerials would be one of the first to be targeted in a campaign to demoralize the civilian population. The railway would be put out of action for a long time, even if the resources were available to rebuild the viaducts in a war scenario or insurrection.
Peter Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 11:59 am
You’re expecting a major war to take place in CA anytime soon?
synonymouse Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
It’s a possibility. Faber suggests economic upheaval could result in a war in the near future. Of course that is where the Depression took us.
Civil unrest on an Iraqi scale is pretty hard to imagine stateside but a Watts or Rodney Kingnot so hard. Stilts are an ugly, noisy, dumb recourse, a Brutalist divertimento, and should only be deployed when a viaduct is genuinely indicated.
Meantime the airlines are cutting routes and schedules:
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre77f5h6-us-airlines-growth/
A bus operation like AC Transit can do the same when faced with fiscal problems. Muni too, and has even in the past taken down trolley bus wire that was not being used any more to avoid maintenance and energy costs.
Eventually BART may have to go to route trimming or mothballing if funds dry up. It all depends on how much money it can squeeze out of the public to baksheesh the bloat.
The CHSRA can only do this proactively, namely by choosing the shortest route. This highlight the problem with government transport projects. A private entity could simply ignore LA-Palmdale whereas PB-CHSRA will have to smack them down and take on the Chandles, Disney, et al as well. They probably don’t have the cojones.
Spokker Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
That’s some real talk, synonymouse.
Tom McNamara Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Give him a break. He has a lot of time on his hands now that Shark Week is over and Truck Stop Missouri wasn’t that great I hear.
Spokker Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Rather bigoted on your part.
Tom McNamara Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Bigoted? Where did that come from?
Spokker Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Forget Shark Week. Killer whales kill and eat Great Whites. They are the real apex predators.
Have Orca week.
Peter Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
Someday I’d like a tour through your brain, synonymouse. You could make it a tourist attraction and sell tickets…
Rick Rong Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Speaking of which, does this blog have a position on whether Proposition 13 and the Three-Strikes-Law should remain unchanged?
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
Let Me Google That For you.
Prop 13 (against, as any right thinking person would be):
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/08/high-speed-rail-will-save-you-money-and-create-jobs/
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/10/sacrificing-the-future-to-the-failure-of-the-present/
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/thoughts-on-the-palo-alto-hearing/
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/04/no-april-fools-joke-caltrain-in-serious-trouble/#comment-73239
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2011/05/ca4hsrs-op-ed-in-bakersfield-californian-a-train-to-somewhere/#comment-112294 (includes typical twisting of another’s position, as a bonus.)
Three strikes (against, as any right-thinking person would be):
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/06/hsr-and-the-november-ballot/#comment-47018
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/07/prop-1-and-state-bond-debt/#comment-47494
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/08/high-speed-rail-will-save-you-money-and-create-jobs/#comment-47947
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/10/pete-rates-prop-1a-a-yes/#comment-48924
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/12/hey-arnold/#comment-50930
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/12/two-quick-ones/#comment-50742
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/12/obama-and-congress-to-screw-up-the-stimulus/#comment-50797
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2009/02/squaring-the-california-budget-circle/
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2009/02/sacramento-meltdown/#comment-52154
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/09/obamas-new-infrastructure-push-likely-to-stall/#comment-85632
Paulus Magnus Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Why do conservatives even need to come up with strawmen when you liberals make ones of yourself so wonderfully?
If the will of the people as expressed in ballot resolution is irrelevant, it is irrelevant across the board. Surely one expressing the very nature of marriage is far more important than a mere transportation project after all.
Tony d. Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 8:16 am
Pot calling kettle black?
Hilarious that you’d be eagerly anticipating an article from HNTB revolving door consultant “CBOSS Bob” Doty.
This is the man who freely admitted that he could chosen to remove freight trains and thus the dead weight of FRA regulation from the Caltrain corridor, but instead decided that it would be “a fun project” to “work with freight”.
“A fun project” translates into $250 million of CBOSS pork for his special little buddies, it turns out.
The same guy who swore up and down that nine trains per hour of HS traffic into San Francisco (killed off the Caltrain service by which he was employed to further!) isn’t any sort of strategic misrepresentation while never once, in years of opportunities, lifting a finger to address any of the glaringly obvious and advertised capacity problems at SF Transbay.
Just the sort of World Class Transportation Professional that has made transit in the USA the unmitigated disaster and fiscal black hole it is today.
You’re truly scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for anybody with a pulse who isn’t a “HSR denier” (meaning an “unquestioning booster of mafia consultant public works fraud”.)
Reality Check Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Bob “CBOSS” Doty: California leads U.S. in high-speed train travel
Peter Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Link fail. Here’s the real thing.
Doty got LGV confused with AGV. That’s kind of amusing.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
The Chronicle’s editors failed hard here. Everyone makes mistakes; I once wrote a comment that implied Zurich was the capital of Switzerland. But when people go back and check the facts, if they care enough they fix the mistakes.
William Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
No, Richard, unlike you and me, people who actually conduct the negotiations, attend the meetings, make the decisions must contend much more than just engineering perfection. So they would always deserve my benefit of doubt.
I think you would agree that without political and popular support, nothing gets build, no matter how “perfect” one’s idea is. Please “try” to understand why other less technical people don’t agree with you, then maybe you can be more effective to convince other people to see your way.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
William, the problem with the engineering compromises is that practically none of them is made to satisfy any populist demand. They raise costs instead of decreasing them, and they raise community impacts. They’re there to satisfy a bunch of lobbyists, not ordinary people, not even NIMBYs.
William Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
I think for big public project like CAHSR, the engineering choices always follow the “path of least resistance”, i.e. not alienating powerful political supporters and not fighting FRA and CPUC for rule changes, and therefore ends up picking a “catch-all” design that’s not cheap.
I agree that accommodating lobbists won’t result in the most efficient or cheap design, but preciously because the project doesn’t have strong, passionate support yet, so that the project doesn’t have enough political capital to say no to special interest groups.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
CBOSS has nothing to do with CHSRA.
Caltrain’s worse than moronic San Bruno project has nothing to do with CHSRA.
Transbay’s blindingly obvious and fixable at any time in a seven year window design disasters aren’t due to CHSRA.
The Caltrain North Terminal project waste of cash has nothing to do with CHSRA.
The Caltrain South Terminal Project waste of cash has nothing to do with CHSRA.
Caltrain’s decade-long failure to even begin to address level boarding has nothing to do with CHSRA.
Funny how your biszarre idea of “accommodation” always results in the public being absolutely reamed raw, while the contractors and consultants and agency do-nothings get everything they dream of, every time. Some compromise going on here: heads they win, tails we lose. Let’s all be friends! Can’t we all get along?
William Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
Okay, back to Caltrain, is CBOSS even defined yet? Is Caltrain actually designing CBOSS itself or developing requirements for CBOSS? Okay, you seems to push for ERTMS, is there any data backing you up that ERTMS is better than CBOSS or any existing PTC in the world? Is there any ERTMS a propriety technology that’s controlled by very few company?
political_incorrectness Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 8:06 pm
CBOSS has been defined, Caltrain is the only one doing it, possibility of cooperation with UP. Utilizing ETRMS which is standardized in Europe would help when HSR comes up the Penninsula so the trains do not have to have two signal capabilities. Also, does it make sense to build a signal system exclusively for Caltrain at the cost of $300 million? Why reinvent the wheel when we can get it off the shelf?
joe Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:02 pm
So my limited understanding is that ERTMS defines an implementation of a safety system and therefore not a requirement for the CAHSR Project. It is used extensively in Yurp, and elsewhere. The assumption, however reasonable, is that the winning HSR design will use ERTMS. But that’s a design decision ahead of where CAHSR is today which is in the requirements definition phase.
CBOSS seems to have some CAHAR involvement – money enables involvement.
Whatever is being done is including the CAHSRA in some degree. They have 16M.
What limits the re-use of CBOSS elsewhere in the US or California?
Paulus Magnus Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:06 pm
The fact that everyone else is using entirely different systems perhaps.
William Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
Maybe UP will require commuter rail that’s sharing UP’s ROW to use CBOSS?
I don’t think any contractor for CBOSS will develop the PTC from scratch, most likely a modify version of PTC that already exists in the world.
joe Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:29 pm
Impossible, everyone isn’t running a PTC system right now.
Joey Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:39 pm
The CHSRA has expressed a preference for ERTMS. It’s built on many years of real-world experience, and I believe there are many vendors for the major components. There’s no reason for CalTrain to go developing their own signaling system right now, especially since they have specifically stated that they are doing ZERO cooperation with the CHSRA as far as signaling is concerned.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
Everybody, however, is developing and deploying a PTC system as it is legislatively mandated for passenger rail corridors by 2015. Nobody but Caltrain is using CBOSS, nor is there any reason for them to use CBOSS, especially as every other PTC system is further ahead in development and deployment.
Seriously, what good reason is there for Caltrain to develop CBOSS instead of simply using ETMS or V-ETMS?
Max Wyss Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 11:38 pm
“What limits the re-use of CBOSS elsewhere in the US or California?”
Assuming that the results are up to world standards, nothing.
However, as the development of ERTMS shows, it takes quite a long time, and quite frankly, the amount quoted for development looks rather low to me.
There is one additional aspect to bear in mind. In most requests for proposals, “proven technology” is requested. CBOSS does not fulfill this for a decade or so.
On the other hand, ERTMS is proven technology, and it is successfully used in high speed rail applications (Spain, France, Switzerland).
Jeff Carter Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Richard M: “Hilarious that you’d be eagerly anticipating an article from HNTB revolving door consultant “CBOSS Bob” Doty.
This is the man who freely admitted that he could chosen to remove freight trains and thus the dead weight of FRA regulation from the Caltrain corridor, but instead decided that it would be “a fun project” to “work with freight”.”
Quite interesting being that Richard at one time was all buddy-buddy with Doty and some Caltrain Staff, having private meetings with Doty/Staff, having an insider role in developing the Baby Bullet schedules. Richard knew the privileged 2004 proposed new schedules before any other member of the public; myself and Caltrain CAC members included. This is the same Richard that for years, prior to Doty’s’ arrival, frequently lashed out vicious, often vulgar, ad hominem attacks against Caltrain staff on ba.transprotation (Google Group/newsgroup) and sometimes at Caltrain/JPB Meetings. I guess this is the thanks Doty & Co. gets for being friendly with Richard and allowing him to help forge the 2004, 2005 Caltrain schedules.
On the other hand I have always been cordial and civil with Caltrain Staff even if I disagreed with them. Yet when I presented strong evidence that hefty increases in Caltrain ridership had a lot to do with increasing gas prices and numerous other factors aside from just the Baby Bullet service, Caltrain Staff gave me the cold shoulder. My questions/arguments were answered with a lengthy, rather patronizing letter from Caltrain Management, asserting the company line, to which I responded rather tenaciously. I was then threatened with censure/or any contact with Caltrain Staff other than at the monthly Caltrain/JPB Meetings, if I were to continue my tenacious arguments questioning the Baby Bullet/”reinvented” Caltrain service as the major, if not singular, reason for the hefty increases in Caltrain ridership beginning in 2004.
So go figure…?
joe Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Jeff;
FWIW http://usj.sagepub.com/content/48/9/1893.short
“What Affects Transit Ridership? A Dynamic Analysis involving Multiple Factors, Lags and Asymmetric Behaviour “
Off topic, but perhaps of interest; sections on China’s recent incident, a proposal to turn an interstate into a toll road, people in Atlanta, Ga., who want to raise taxes provided they get a rail system, the TECO replica trolleys of Tampa, Fla., and driving in Germany:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df3/df08152011.shtml
political_incorrectness Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
So much for people loving their cars, even in the auto dominated south.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
And Rhode Island considers tolling I-95 and making my city slightly less miserable for pedestrians.
Jerry Hill used to be a Republican. I don’t remember the year, but He switched parties in order to stay in elected office. See YouTube campaign commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvET_QrYMSc
and also:
http://www.giarrizzo-consulting.com/direct-mail/jerry-hill
Visalia/Tulare is in TULARE County. Your earlier blog post that”KINGS COUNTY was for HSR before they were against it” is false simply by looking at a map (something you were unable to do?) Visalia and Tulare is in TULARE COUNTY. Kings County sits NEXT to Tulare County and its Tulare County that wanted the station and has begged for a station from the beginning, they also voted FOR HSR. Kings County voted AGAINST HSR. Please fix this misinformation. I would have posted on this blog link but comments are closed. Thanks!
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2011/08/kings-county-was-for-hsr-before-they-were-against-it/#respond
Alan Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 10:09 am
Try reading the comments on that post. I believe that it was clarified that the reference was to the Kings County board of supervisors support of the project.
But thanks for playing.
IF high speed rail is built will it be operated under Amtrak California or a private operator? I’m new to this whole high speed rail talk so please no snappy remarks.
Tom McNamara Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:04 pm
That is not settled as of yet. The hope is that a private investor from outside the US would want to operate the system in exchange for putting up capital dollars. However, at this point, no one has done so.
elportonative77 Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:47 pm
Thanks for the response.
Tony d. Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:17 pm
No one has done so because the system is still in the design stage, with EIR,s still be completed. Will be interesting to see what the “mega-consortia” of 100 companies that Rod Diridon mentioned is all about. It’s not like companies such as Cisco, Apple and Google aren’t sitting on wads of cash.
elportonative77 Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Thanks.
Max Wyss Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
If infrastructure and operation are separated, selecting the operator about two years before planned opening of service would still be considered early, so selecting the operator is not of a high priority at the current state of the project. So, no need to worry at the moment.
However, as it has been said already, the building consortia may (or may not) have a potential operator on board.
IMHO, the current discussion about operators is just part of the Propaganda.
Drunk Engineer Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 3:05 am
Um, not really. Here is what the peer review group says about that:
A related problem is that high-speed railways are systems, not easily separable parts. Gradients, curvature, track components, signaling, electrification, and rolling stock must work together. Ideally the critical elements of all of these would be specified by the future operator of the system in order to ensure compatibility and safety of the system. Neither Caltrans nor the HSRA has the required operating expertise. HSRA’s consultants may have some of the required expertise, but cannot speak for the viewpoint of the future operator.
The importance of the operator’s input into the details of the systems design cannot be overstated. The operator should have major input into the design and siting of the maintenance facility, siting of high speed crossovers, line side signaling and the layout of stations, among other features.
joe Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:15 am
IMHO the Peer Review group conflated the importance of having “an” operator and “the” operator provide input into the design.
Max Wyss Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Operators are exchangeable. The task of the operator is to provide the service to the public, and therefore mainly commercial.
For the technical side of the operation, there are well-established best practices as well as standards all over the world which can be adopted.
The system components described in the message are essentially in the responsibility of the infrastructure manager. And then, it is the task of the rolling stock manufacturer to build trains which suit the system specified by the infrastructure manager.
OF COURSE, it makes sense if the infrastructure manager (I guess that would be CAHSR) is aware of operational practices and standards and takes them into account. But in getting information, it is much more recommended to consult rolling stock manufacturers (who know what can be done) than a marketing organization (the operator).
Concerning rolling stock, it is more and more common practice to not just buy “trains” from the rolling stock manufacturer (or even buy the carbody from one, and the electrical equipment from another etc.). The trend goes more and more towards a whole package, consisting of the vehicles, spare parts, maintenance for a given number of years (expressed in xx percent availability), and the financing.
Now, where the operator will have a word to say is in the interior design of the vehicles, interior design of the commercial spaces and so on.
So, again, there is no need to specify “the operator”, because there are best practices. It is irrelevant whether the trains running on the line are white with a red stripe, or yellow with a grey stripe, or blue with a grey stripe, or grey with purple stripes… All those trains have to comply to the specification of the line, and be certified for it.
This youtube video sez Jerry was a registered GOP member for 35 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvET_QrYMSc
synonymouse Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
Diane Feinstein used to be a Republican.
joe Reply:
August 15th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
And, as a progressive, she sucks.
OT: I have sort of been teetering back on forth between supporting Palmdale (at an extra couple $B + extra 10 min) or supporting the cheaper I-5 alignment. Here is another reason to support Palmdale: Harry Reid. It is not a bad thing to have 2 additional senators support HSR in CA since it will also benefit their state.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/reid-ready-to-railroad-anyone-in-pet-project-s-path-127677513.html
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:02 am
If Las Vegas interests are willing to front the additional cost, then maybe. If not, then why should California spend extra money to make service worse?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:22 am
Would they be spending extra money? Tunneling is not cheap.
Service has to be faster than driving. Not going through Palmdale means the half million people in Palmdale don’t get any service. How many people does Tejon serve? Keep in mind that there won’t be teletransporters in the remote stations along I-5. Most people wouldn’t call driving 50 miles to the station out of I-5 that would serve Fresno “better service”
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:54 am
Yes, it means half a million people in Antelope Valley don’t get HSR service. It also means that people in the Bay Area, Fresno, and Bakersfield get faster service to LA. There’s a big difference between going through Tejon on I-5, and going through the Central Valley on I-5. One is an alignment that may or may not be geologically feasible; the other is madness.
synonymouse Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Yeah sure , Steve Wynn, the casino mogul who called Barack a wet blanket, is going to pony up the scratch to build DX or any derivative thereto or thereof. He’ll be happy to use your money to build a train to ferry California suckers to Sin City to drop their rent money. Hey let’s send all our welfare cases along with our “lost wages” to Las Vegas.
Today Michelle Bachmann told Warren Buffett, the zillionaire with the “tax me more” t-shirt, he is free and encouraged to write a nice big check to Uncle Sam any time. Instead I suggest he write a check for a cool billion to PB so it can erect some stilts in Corcoran. Hey, why not go for the full bechtel and pour it to broad gauge.
bixnix Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 8:15 am
You can put money down that a Tejon alignment isn’t going to be 10 minutes faster. With possible slower than planned service possible in the Bay Area and unknowns about just how fast our purchased trainsets will be (380 km/h vs 350 km/h vs 320 km/h), as well the budget issues, the Authority is searching for the cheapest way, any way, to get it to run at 2:38.
Peter Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
They’re designing the system for 350 km/h operation. Whether any trains other than an SF-LA “super-express” would actually run at that speed is a different question. Now that China has slowed its trains to 300 km/h, I don’t think anyone other than the Germans and the French operate at faster speeds than 300 km/h.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
JR East is planning to speed up to 320 in 2013.
Donk Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
My point was that by continuing to dangle the LA-Palmdale route in front of Nevada, that state’s congressmen might continue to support HSR for CA. We need to congressional support of HSR, and CAHSR, to get our system funded.
jim Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Just as a matter of interest, when did Palmdale become the connection point for DX? The last I heard (several months ago, since my level of interest in DX is fairly low) it would connect via a wye near Mojave.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
DX plans to connect in Palmdale. Mojave is better in every way, but DX wants to build its first phase from LV to Victorville, and doesn’t want to split train frequency by having a way in Barstow. In that sense Palmdale is an okay compromise, assuming LV-Victorville is built before LA-Bakersfield. If DX can connect to LA without needing a first phase in Victorville, there’s no excuse for Palmdale.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
How do they get to LA without going through Palmdale?
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 3:24 pm
They don’t. But they go LV-Barstow-Mojave-Palmdale-LA, instead of LV-Barstow-Victorville-Palmdale-LA. The distance is about the same to LA, but it’s much more useful for service from LV to the CV and Bay Area.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
I got confused with “there’s no excuse for Palmdale.”
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Palmdale as the location of the wye. If the passes through the Coast Range weren’t named, we’d be talking about Chowchilla vs. Manteca instead of Pacheco vs. Altamont. I hope that if someone said “Chowchilla is a complete disaster” you wouldn’t ask how to get from LA to Manteca without going through Chowchilla.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 11:46 pm
They aren’t currently planning on building a station in Chowchilla or Manteca. On the other hand they are reexamining Tejon. Which would mean no HSR in the Antelope Valley.
DX has different priorities than you. They want to build parking garages closest to their prospective customers. Since they have different priorities they come up with different answers.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 16th, 2011 at 11:51 pm
To be honest, given the current state of DX, Tejon is much better than Tehachapi assuming equal costs (and this includes equal cost risk). If DX could actually open in 2012 as originally planned it would’ve been different, but it won’t, and it’s still struggling to get financing. But, if Palmdale is selected anyway – either for the correct reason that Tejon is indeed too expensive or risky, or for the incorrect reason that LA County is lobbying for it – then to make the best of it, it’d be better to buid the DX connector from Barstow to Mojave rather than from Victorville to Palmdale. Again, it depends on what can open first, but at this stage it’s equally likely to be CAHSR as it is to be DX.