Poll: Californians Still Strongly Support High Speed Rail
Maybe the problem isn’t the American political system at all. Maybe it’s just that HSR critics refuse to listen to what the people are telling them.
In November 2008, California voters approved $10 billion in funding for our high speed rail system.
In April 2010, a poll revealed 77% of respondents on the Peninsula supported high speed rail.
In November 2010, California voters sent the anti-HSR gubernatorial candidate packing by a resounding 13-point margin.
Today the trend merely became clearer, as a new Harris Poll shows.
In California, a whopping 70% of respondents support state and federal funding for high speed rail, with 21% opposed.
In Florida, where Governor Rick Scott today made a highly ideological decision to reject a workable, locally-backed plan to save the state’s HSR project, support was similarly strong, 67-21 for HSR.
Governor Scott’s absurd decision will mean a windfall for California, the Pacific Northwest, and other parts of the country where political leaders still understand and accept the benefits of high speed rail. Expect California’s political leaders in both Sacramento and Washington, DC to step up their efforts to land that money.
Those leaders have the backing of the people of California. While there are some vocal HSR critics and opponents, they need to accept that they are badly outnumbered. And the media needs to realize that Californians really weren’t kidding when they said – repeatedly – that they want this project to get done.
California isn’t turning away from high speed rail. In fact, as the right-wing ramps up its attack on the project, with silly scare stories on Fox News and ridiculous editorials, all that will happen is Californians will stiffen their backs and fight for the project even more strongly.
Conservative Republicans in Congress and their oil company paymasters may feel emboldened to attack the California HSR project more openly. That’s fine. It should be both expected and welcomed. The public is on our side. And while there’s still some details to get right, those are in the end just details. The big decisions have been made, the project will get built – and it’s because the people of California are sick and tired of wasting time on Interstate 5 in the Valley, in traffic to and security lines at LAX and SFO, and of ever-rising oil prices. Haters are gonna hate. We welcome their hatred.
Is the deadline for Florida to change their mind tomorrow? If so, I expect a redistribution announcement next week, although the exact timing will depend on the budget agreement. It would be unwise to follow “government shut down to do budget disagreement” with “and California welcomes 1 billion in new fed funds today”
And yes, the majority clearly support HSR. There has been vote after vote supporting HSR. The opponents are the same few, creating an echo chamber.
O’toole says “high speed rail sucks” and Cox says “as pointed out by o’toole, high speed rail sucks” so samuelson writes an editorial about how “two leading transit people think high speed rail sucks” and then the reason foundation cites the editorial as proof of “a rising backlash against high speed rail”.
Jack Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 10:28 pm
Brilliant! Then MB comes on here and posts every article as a “Tsunami of Backlash against HSR”
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:51 am
Because robert lets him..but never bash that old rich bitch
StevieB Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:59 am
MB makes me laugh. He does represent a point of view of a small minority and the opinions of the opposition to rail provoke thoughtful counterarguements.
TomW Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 6:29 am
Please don’t use such language… MB manages to make his arguments without resorting to gutter language, and there is no reason why we can’t do likewise. If he’s wrong, there’s no need to be insulting. If he’s right, then insults are pointless.
dave Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:53 am
Hey you gotta give the guy some credit for his dedication & devotion. He’s our equivalent, except he’s on the other team. We can become cheerleaders here sometimes, so let the guy post his “opinion” even if you think it’s BS. I enjoy a good laugh every once in a while from him. Facts always triumph any name calling, let them talk for you.
Andre Peretti Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 5:03 am
I’ve often noticed how these people always refer to each other’s “studies”, indirectly quoting themselves in the end. It’s what computer programmers call a recursive procedure. If uncontrolled, it snowballs and swamps the whole memory, obliging you to reboot the computer.
Can you reboot public opinion?
Jerry Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
Can you reboot public opinion? Good question Andre. Professor James S. Fishkin of Stanford University describes the problem:
Citizens are often uninformed about key public issues. Conventional polls represent the public’s surface impressions of sound bites and headlines. The public, subject to what social scientists have called “rational ignorance,” has little reason to confront trade-offs or invest time and effort in acquiring information or coming to a considered judgment. His answer is Deliberative Polling. The way his process reboots public opinion is explained at their website:
http://cdd.stanford.edu/polls/docs/summary/
Otherwise, blogs such as this one helps interested uninformed people learn more about the many issues involved. Including me.
Note that this poll never asks: “would you pay higher taxes, or cut other government programs to pay for high-speed rail.”
This is a common polling technique. Similar polls have shown near-unanimous support for universal health care, reduced class sizes, free drug coverage, etc, etc. Well, who wouldn’t want those things if there are no costs involved?
synonymouse Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 11:23 pm
Do you favor world peace?
But if the public is so gung ho to pour concrete why so worried about a re-vote on PB-Rail?
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
That battle was already fought and won.
tony d. Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:39 am
Whatever! Nice reach by the way DE at trying to degrade the poll results (can you say sour grapes?).
dave Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 9:07 am
People obviously know that this project is gonna cost money. They didn’t ask “do you support the idea of HSR?”, they did asked “do you support HSR in your state?” and “Do you support Federal funding for HSR?”. Obviously taxes are involved, nothing is free.
@ mouse
“Do you favor world peace?”
Can you guarantee it? How much do you want? I’m sick of Wars.
Drunk Engineer Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:10 am
dave:
Don’t assume respondents believe taxes are involved. Poll results in this country are very contradictory. On the one hand, voters say they want more government services, on the other hand they say they want lower taxes, and cuts in government spending.
dave Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:57 am
Example: Regardless of what you think of what’s going on Federally regarding taxes, loans, money, etc. Prop. 1A specifically said, $9.95B for this project, YES or NO? A required majority said YES to that regardless of the total cost wich like I said is seperate, Federally. Someone who say’s yes to nearly $10 Billion doesn’t later say, wait nevermind if it’s $43-$50 Billion overall. Someone who is that concerned over spending $10 Billion on a rail project with a short summary on a ballot WILL NOT vote in favor of it because of it’s uncertainty. If you are concerned of the costs to something the safest thing to vote is NO.
This example is shown regularly from people stating that they “voted in favor” and then say that they regret it. I don’t buy that, because these people are usually very vocal and have zero chance that they ever did vote for it because of their innitial stance of “no spending”.
In my opinion, Government can better provide public services by halting subsidies to wastefull major programs like the monopolized oil based transportation industry to start and then cutting down defense spending. That tax money could go to improving the lives of citizens not only through transportation but other services that benefit the health of society, NOT lining the pockets of Corporations or paying Contractors to make more bombs for us. Despite their reckless defense spending, I feel as safe as if they didn’t spend that money. Maybe then people will want to pay taxes when they can see the results. Maybe we can provide for the Homeless to get off the streets and turn their lives around, put drug addicts in rehab instead of prison, legalize MJ and use that money for things we need to progress and not stand still and keep non violent people out of jail. IDK, stuff like that.
joe Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 11:09 am
Wanting more services for less cost isn’t a contradiction, it’s basic market force.
HSR is a service and people are price sensitive – build it cost effectively – so that means no free tunnel for the Peninsula.
When given an opportunity to direct funding and vote, they approved HSR.
Drunk Engineer wants pollsters to spin their surveys to disfavor HSR.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 2:25 pm
It’s normal on some issues to include price figures in polls. For example, in the mid-2000s, one of the poll questions about health care put a concrete $400 billion/10 years pricetag on extra Medicare funding (it was supported 2-1). Not including price figures can tell you about what people would ideally like, but is not as good at predicting how they’ll behave in elections.
Ken Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:23 am
Note that on polls conducted by conservatives that say many are opposed to HSR, they never mention: “do you plan to pay $5.00 per gallon on gas?”
Now, with this support, might we get another bond measure passed? Or sales/gas tax increase?
Something to give us even more of an edge going forward.
If we can just get this system running we’ll give all those Luddites a good view of what HSR really is and how it isn’t a scary Communist boogeyman.
synonymouse Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 11:47 pm
Survey says: public natural born foamers
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/market-crash-2011-it-will-hit-by-christmas-2011-02-22
Somewhat off topic but why do people on here hate PB and Bechtel?
Who would they prefer to be in charge of the relevant jobs?
Caelestor Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
Some people here have a strong distrust of corporations who they believe are out to maximize their profits by maximizing the taxpayers’ costs (of course, some of the design doesn’t help allay these suspicions). They really don’t give an alternative though. RM would probably say the Germans.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 6:44 am
If I owned a company, or a share of one, whether it was a hot dog stand or multi-office international company…. That would be my objective. Maximize the bottom-line while remaining within the legal parameters. Also, try to fit in some environmental objectives… Being green to a reasonable extent.
But, what I would not advocate as an owner, is a socialist agenda and a bottom-line that ended up being zeroed out at the end of the day, or being negative.
@ Travis D
Quantm Engineering
Herrenknecht
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:53 am
Shot your self in the head Synn…and put yourself and WE out of your hemmorid pain
synonymouse Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:09 am
Uh, are we one toke over the line tonite?
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:30 am
I bet you wish you were old queen??
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:32 am
Any Dome cars you and Tomolach can foam over..together
More information on the Amtrak pat downs that are happening right now. A woman made a call to Amtrak and recorded it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usa-qX_7J_M
Here is the original video of what Amtrak is doing at random, before and after passengers make their trip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1B3AubsTBo
In the video, a woman is gone over with a wand and a child is made to take off his shoes. All passengers were inspected after they had reached their destination.
Spokker Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 11:59 pm
When they start doing this in California, I will be done with Amtrak permanently. If they do this with high speed rail, I will not be using it either.
synonymouse Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:07 am
@ Spokker
Wasn’t the slogan at one time “You go easy; you go Greyhound”?
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:28 am
Go unmolested. Drive.
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:56 am
like a “real American”
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:04 am
Well, yes, actually.
Andre Peretti Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:14 am
And what about car bombs?
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Government doesn’t seem to care about care bombs.
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
*car
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:52 am
Hey look: http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/the-new-greyhound-metal-detectors-scanners-pat-downs-introduced-at-bus-terminals_12022010
synonymouse Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:12 am
Of course Greyhound might be as worried as much about some of their regular patrons going postal as jihadists.
Wad Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Let’s hear it for Synonymouse for his/her/its first good point ever.
Remember this?
http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2275742/Greyhound-bus-killer-beheads-victim-and-then-eats-flesh.html
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:56 am
Then suck eggs.com
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:04 am
Good luck with those balls.
YesonHSR Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:37 am
I like en big buddy
The goal?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tschaut/5476274524/in/pool-57953347@N00/
thatbruce Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:23 am
I suspect we’ll see something more like this, with a ‘secured’ zone surrounding the HSR platforms.
Alex M. Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Well, to be fair, the Eurostar is an international train>
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
To be fair, the Basel S-Bahn runs through to three different countries.
David Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Yeah, none of them are ENGLAND though, are they? England has just as big a fetish with security theatre and nonsensical rules as America.
Joey Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 12:24 am
Almost, but not quite. What I remember from my last visit there is that airport security is significantly less paranoid than here…
thatbruce Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 5:52 pm
@Alex M.
The Eurostar (not the Italian variant) has passport control as the rationale for the secured zone illustrated in the picture. The ICE pictured in Spokker’s link, and the Swiss service which Richard links to, both travel through multiple Schengen countries, and in their regular operation, stop at regular unsecured and not-dedicated-to-that-service platforms. When passport control is (rarely) applied on the latter two, they do it on-board the train as it is travelling across the border.
Unfortunately, there is a mindset amongst the planners retained by the CAHSRA that the CAHSR needs a secured zone (ie, security theater) at each station, even though it is remaining within one geopolitical area, and at the most it would require a separate fare enforcement zone (ie, tickets please) from the non-HSR services using the same station, which can be applied on a per-service basis at each station (eg, if capacity restraints prevent the shiny HSR train from using its regular platforms).
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 6:36 pm
Why would they even need fare enforcement? Real live Americans cope with trains from different operators arriving on the exact same tracks as other operators right now. There’s no fare control to speak of.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 7:29 pm
Reason 1: Building the massive extra duplicative infrastructure of paid/unpaid airside/landside passenger areas with redundant circulation plus the jackpot score of building entirely duplicative and separate and unequal adjacent train stations (because they are “required” by the “technical requirements” that the profiteers authored themselves) is a multi-billion (more likely multi-tens-of-billions) dollar bonanza for the engineering and construction mafias. They’d have to be totally insane to not require secured areas when they write their own tech specs.
Reason 2: Fare gates (acquisition, replacement, maintenance) and the back end systems “required” to support them are a multi-hundred-million bonanza for contractors. Just to be sure, it would be wisest to include that also, just in case, wouldn’t you say?
So, all perfectly logical. From the people bringing you HSR to Los Banos and BART to the San Jose Flea Market.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
but but think of all those lovely turnstiles people will have to go through!
Spokker Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
The general consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of fare gates, as if there’s something wrong with a system that relies on proof of payment. There is also a crazy amount of people who think mass transit could operate in the black if they just stop all those fare dodgers that they claim are taking free rides in massive numbers.
“I never see anyone pay for their ticket!” they say. Partly hyperbole, I suspect, and partly because many people have day passes, monthly passes or transfers. I have never paid for a Metro Rail ticket in Los Angeles in my life. That’s because I’m coming in on Metrolink which includes free transfers. I don’t even tap anything because there’s nothing to tap. The hysterical paranoid people who think everybody is beating the fare would probably look at me with scorn.
My own paranoid side thinks these are all white people who thought it would be neat to visit Hollywood and take the train. They end up seeing all these Mexicans with monthly passes not purchasing tickets and getting so angry that their TAX DOLLARS are supporting ILLEGALS WHO RIDE FREE and it just makes them SO GOSH DARN ANGRY THAT IT MAKES THEM WANT TO POST ON THE OC REGISTER ABOUT HOW ALL THE ILLEGALS UP IN LA ARE RIDING FOR FREE. But that’s just me.
TAPPA TAPPA TAPPA!
Alon Levy Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
Whatever. The general consensus in your neck of the woods is also overwhelmingly in favor of the Foothills Extension.
Spokker Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
The SGV got theirs.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Basel S-Bahn (and Genève RER, and Genève’s TPG trolley bus routes, for that matter!) operated cross-border before Switzerland was part of Schengen-land.
Meanwhile, in USA the Land of the Free, internal passports are required for travel. Remind me who won the Cold War again?
Eric M Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 11:51 am
For a second, I thought you found one of my pictures. That looks exactly like the one I took in Nürnberg. LOL Got to love those ICE trains.
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Here’s another photography I want to highlight.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nobbiusa/1726496651/in/photostream/#/photos/nobbiusa/1726496651/in/photostream/lightbox/
Now, I am only observing what I see in the photo. I do not actually know what’s going on here. But here’s what I see and correct me if I’m wrong.
Just to the right of center, I see an ICE train and what looks like a slower train. It appears that riders can detrain the local and board the ICE with virtually no obstacles (and vice versa). They just have to walk to the other platform, which looks like a very short walk. I assume they already have their ticket to transfer. It’s also a short walk to the red double-decker trains on the far left.
The point is that the two systems aren’t separated. And look at that mob of people on the right. Do you want to slow them down in any way? Do you want them to have to look into their luggage for their ticket, thus creating an obstacle?
So what happens if you don’t have your ticket for your connecting train? Here’s another angle: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tossmeanote/2426707906/sizes/l/in/photostream/
It looks like there are ticket machines on each platform. You don’t have to walk all the way to a ticket booth that is God knows where in the station. It makes it simple for people who aren’t familiar with the station.
Looks like a good station based on these photos alone.
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:26 pm
Some more questions.
In Germany, do you have to show your government ID when buying an ICE ticket, even if you are traveling within the country, even if you are a citizen? On Amtrak you have to show photo ID either when you purchase a ticket from an agent or when your ticket is collected.
So what is security like on German trains? Do they bring bomb-sniffing dogs onto the train? Do they have random bag checks? Do they harass photographers?
Kevin Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
You can purchase an ICE ticket online, from a station agent, or from an automated kiosk at the train station. My last online ticket (bought for a Hamburg-Munich trip last year) says it’s only good when presented with a valid ID, but that seems to be at the discretion of the conductor who scans your ticket onboard the train; I wasn’t asked to present anything other than the ticket. The kiosks take cash, so if you want to be fully anonymous, you can.
Security is relaxed. When I lived in Hamburg, I saw police at the main train station all the time (usually dealing with fights between the local drunks), but never on trains. No bag checks, no bomb-sniffing dogs. Stations were very photographer-friendly; the bookstore in the Hamburg station has a large foamer section with railway magazines and related ephemera.
(In the ultimate illustration of the difference between Germany and America, I once accidentally left a duffel bag on the platform while boarding an ICE train; when I went back to collect it, it was waiting for me in the office of the porter who was responsible for that platform. He handed it over with nothing more than a light scolding — no evacuation of the station, no bomb squad hauling the bag outside to be destroyed by robots …)
bleh Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 5:30 am
> In Germany, do you have to show your government ID when buying an ICE ticket, even if you are traveling within the country, even if you are a citizen?
No, this isn’t 1933.
> On Amtrak you have to show photo ID either when you purchase a ticket from an agent or when your ticket is collected.
Yes, this isn’t 1933.
> So what is security like on German trains?
HSR trains make bad targets because you won’t kill many people. Terrorist attacks (e.g. Madrid) were generally on metros and regional trains and you can’t secure those because there’s too many stations and too many people.
Wait for the first time a terrorist gets creative with a tank truck. You won’t be able to leave your county without them X-raying you and fondling your kids.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Last time I was on Amtrak, I didn’t have to show ID, either. I bought a ticket online, printed it at a kiosk, and showed it without ID to the ticket puncher.
Spokker Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 1:33 am
When you purchased/picked up the ticket at the kiosk, the kiosk took your photograph. Perhaps that’s why they are a bit more lenient. Also, if you purchase with a credit card, they do have some kind of paper trail.
Did you also swipe your AGR card?
Alon Levy Reply:
February 28th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
I swiped a debit card. I didn’t even know the kiosks take photos – they never say things like “Look at the camera.” If they do, it’s a major civil liberties issue for them not to bother to mention it.
What’s AGR?
Spokker Reply:
February 28th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
The camera is in the hole directly above the screen and Quik-Trak logo: http://www.romesentinel.com/dailyImages/2009/08/26/20090826-141258-001_medium.jpeg
AGR stands for Amtrak Guest Rewards.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 28th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Your picture is taken quite frequently whether you are using your debit card or not.
Spokker Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 1:33 am
I ride the Surfliner and my ID is not always checked, but they do ask from time to time.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 9:56 am
When you buy a ticket from the clerk, the clerk is suppose to ask for “valid government issued photo ID” when you bypass the clerk and use the quiktrak, the conductor knows the difference between clerk issued and QT issued tickets and is suppose to ask for ID. They don’t always ask for ID on clerk issued tickets because presumably that has already been done.
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:44 pm
Wow, these photos are really enlightening me. I can’t believe I didn’t do this before. Here’s another example.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alendri/4753801266/sizes/o/in/photostream/
That makes the proposed Transbay Terminal look like dogshit. It just looks like the German station tries to make it as easy on the rider as possible.
Joey Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 12:30 am
Quite so. Though CalTrain-HSR transfers at Transbay are likely to be minimal (though the design is deficient for many other reasons as well). I would be much more concerned with places like San José and LAUS where major transfers are likely to occur.
Kevin Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 10:34 am
It does, doesn’t it? Easy connections to regional and commuter trains (all on the same level), S-Bahn (the two tracks on the far left, or one level down), U-Bahn (both ends of the station), and buses (across the street).
And for the PB ‘engineers’ who need a diamond-admantium wall and a 150-foot no-man’s-land with moats and barbed wire separating HSR and anything else, note that anything (including freight!) can come through the station on any track.
Looks like revisions to the Transbay Terminal rail alignments:
http://transbaycenter.org/uploads/2011/02/2011-02-15-CAC-mtg-50-CD-Overview.pdf
Dublin Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 7:40 am
Can anyone interpret these for the layperson. I think the green plan is the new and improved? One of the tracks at the top looks shorter than the others, is that one for caltrain only? It mentions platform height but I cannot find the specifics or if the heights are all the same. Thanks
Joey Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:10 pm
They have moved the CalTrain platforms (low) to the northern end of the station because there is a building in the way of making the northernmost track full-length.
As for improved, that’s rather questionable. There appears to be a new curved turnout connecting the two CalTrain tracks, but the layout indicates that those two tracks merge into one without any other connections to anything else, basically eliminating the utility of the crossover and still limiting CalTrain to a single approach track.
Donk Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:33 am
This design isn’t grand enough. They need to add at least two more levels, have four more mezzanines, and add more glass. I don’t think there is enough glass. And maybe some gargoyles too. They shouldn’t stop until they get to $9B, this way they can siphon off all of the CAHSR funds.
mike Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 11:19 am
It seems like they have realigned the curves at the throat to have a larger radius. Am I imagining that?
Jon Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
I don’t think there is anything new over the changes that were discussed here: http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2010/12/progress-at-transbay.html
Red is old design, green is new design. Basically they eliminated the tail tracks and flipped the Caltrain platforms from the south edge of the terminal to the north edge.
jimsf Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:11 pm
I just want to know where my ticket office will be and how much back office space I will have.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
I dunno why there needs to be a ticket office at an Amtrak bus station. Can’t the driver collect the fares?
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 10:03 am
No the driver cannot collect fares. There is an amtrak ticket office in a major tourist city because we do transactions beyond selling bus tickets. In fact, we don’t sell bus tickets. We sell rail fares with bus connections, make reservations, dispense information, do exchanges, upgrades, downgrades, refunds, takes complaints, sell and book usa rail pass travel, sell and book california rail pass travel, check luggage, do accounting, coordinate and log buses, re accommodate passenger during service disruptions, sell group tickets, call cabs, make hotel reservations, and a host of other general customer service activities. The amtrak space in tbt will just replace our current space on the waterfront, where we moved from a previous location in the ferry building, where we moved from a previous location in the old transbay terminal where we did all of the above.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 10:29 am
All of which could be done at the the train station in Oakland ya know, where the trains are.
YesonHSR Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 10:54 am
Actually no… we need some kind of Amtrak office here in San Francisco which technically is one of the largest American cities without direct Amtrak service. most people don’t know that.. though I’m sure you do. The current Emeryville station is starting to be overcrowded as train usage increases ,every time I take the Amtrak bus over there to catch the capitals or Zephyr hardly any seats and always a line at the ticket counter .
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:02 am
People all over the US manage to take care of their train station business in the train station. An extreme example is New York City. More people than all of the Bay Area and only one station, ticket office etc.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:05 am
you’re ridiculous.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:08 am
Then why isn’t there an Amtrak office in Brooklyn or out in Queens? Or an Amtrak stop in the Bornx? Amtrak trains go through the Bronx twice an hour in each direction. More people live in the Bronx than in San Francisco.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:11 am
IM not even having this ridiculous conversation with you youre just being an asshole.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:18 am
And I don’t recall ever seen Queens or Brooklyn on any Conde Nast global top ten list. much. or ever.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
Two of the world’s busiest airports are in Queens.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:09 am
you do realize that people are doing amtrak business here and not necessarily taking a train anytime soon right? Thats why its not a bus station or a train station, its a ticket office.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Isn’t that what Amtrak’s website and Quik-Trak kiosks are for?
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
no.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 11:04 am
Exactly. Why would we send all the international clientele who are visiting SF, over to oakland to do a transaction. Thats the last place they want to go. And what about the office assistants from the fidi who come in and do transactions for their bosses, and how bout the sf school groups, should we make them go to oakland for their group tickets? We should probably close down all the airline ticket offices in dowtown SF too and make everyone trot out to the airport to do transactions. While we’re at it, since so much banking is done online, we should close all the bank branches in town and convert the space to housing.
jimsf Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 10:10 am
In addition to the phase one location on the second level, where we will be located to serve the bus level, ( amtrak buses will temporarily use the AC transit bus level) when phase two ( rail service opens) is ready, we will actually be moving down to the rail mezz/concourse level ( one level above the platforms) where there will be a new dedicated bus below ground bus loading area for greyhound and amtrak. The bus deck will be for AC transit only. This will put the amtrak counter in the rail area which will allow caltrain sales if we happen to have that contract at the time, and hsr sales should we happen to get that contract at the time. There is also an underground taxi stand.
Donk Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
They already have 4000 sqft allotted to the Amtrak bus ticket office. It only costs $50M for that portion of the station.
Subsidy Scope has more info on highway subsidies including a state by state breakdown.
http://subsidyscope.org/transportation/highways/funding/state/
Clem Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Interesting. I bet most people didn’t know that road spending in California amounts to ~ $17 billion PER YEAR, or that only 30% (that’s right THIRTY percent) is covered by actual user fees such as gas taxes and vehicle fees. That sure puts things into perspective…
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
The gas tax isn’t a “user fee”. It’s simply a (grossly inadequate, un-indexed) sales tax which, through the miracle of ballot box legislation, is redirected into the pockets of a politically juiced sector of the construction industry, to great macro-economic and environmental cost.
After all, when I pay sales tax on a bottle of wine it doesn’t go towards building more vineyards.
Clem Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Point.
Also, these numbers only count the direct cost of roads. There are indirect costs that we are all paying, such as taxes for policing and emergency services, and health insurance that covers all the road carnage.
Joe Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:15 pm
And it costs $0.50 per mile to operate your private vehicle on these subsidized roads.
synonymouse Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
But all that doesn’t matter. Sadly but solidly the public continues to support highway expenditures. Two reasons stand out – most people can take advantage of the roadway system and local contractors are often used. That is why in liberal enclaves like Marin County you don’t see any opposition to continuing highway projects. IMHO it is a waste of time to bemoan this reality, however how inequitable and dumb it may appear.
For transit and railroad advocates the best recourse is to get the most utility and the most value out of the funds that are available. The CHSRA scheme is most manifestly not that. On the other hand the TRAC fill the gap via Tejon plan is precisely what is indicated.
The current California political picture is pathetic. Even the machine mouthpiece SF Chron admits today that Jerry Brown is being led around by the nose by the CTA. He doesn’t dare to contrary them.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
WHy would Jerry Brown have anything to do with the Chicago Transit Authority?
synonymouse Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
California Teachers Association – I believe that is their correct title. Definitely not the CTA of George Krambles.
Peter Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
And why are they relevant to HSR?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
No doubt they have a secret plot to build a teacher’s college in North Palmdale where they can inculcate their students with radical thought. The 3Rs, civics lessons and the evil Palmer Method.
synonymouse Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Their intransigeance gives the lie to Jerry’s phony budget cuts. The GOP realizes their continued existence, even as a minority party, depends on their ability and willingness to present a
distinct alternative to the patronage machine’s agenda to spend like there is no tomorrow. The CHSRA is central to that profligacy; it is incumbent upon the Repubs to counter the PB juggernaut with a sensible, incremental approach(enter TRAC).
Alternately if cost is truly deemed by the establishment elite to be no object and all is to be on stilts, go with maglev, which is much faster and thus competitive and benefits from an air bearing. Steel on steel can wear out fast, especially with deferred, SF Muni union style maintenance, as the Chinese example attests. In fact the China model is probably more appropriate than Japan or Europe to what will obtain in California. After all the Palmdale caper shows our functionaries we are every bit as corrupt as China’s and noisy BART affirms how crappy is our maintenance. I wonder how corrugated rails will sound at 220 mph. They won’t, because management will have to cut down the top speed due to wear they can’t afford.
Spokker Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
“Whoever said that, whatever the yield of these taxes, and whatever the poverty of the country, we were to build roads, and nothing but roads, from this yield? We might have to cripple our Trade by increased taxation of income, we might even be unable to pay for the upkeep of our Fleet. But never mind, whatever happens, the whole yield of the taxes on motors must be spent on roads!” -Winston Churchill
And then he raided Britain’s Road Fund.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Wait… I still can’t figure from the description whether they’re including local streets or not. If not, they’re still counting gas taxes generated by local streets as user fees for state routes.
Clem Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Yes it includes local roads.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 9:58 pm
All of them, or just the ones eligible for state funds? The underlying national data from the FHWA says total local property tax funding is $8.3 billion a year, which is way, way, way too low.
O/T: Van Ark will be speaking to the Madera County Farm Bureau shortly (9:45 AM) followed by Rep. Denham (10:45) – it is being streamed live:
http://www.maderafb.com/Events/Water-Conference%202011.html
Victor Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 10:44 am
Nice, So that’s Van Ark, Their supposed to resume at 11:00 after a 17 minute break.
Victor Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 11:21 am
Repugnican Rep Denham really sucks, He still wants to defund what as a Farmer He doesn’t see benefiting Him and to sell off State and Local buildings and Sites to Private interests.
How often does 70+% of the public agree on anything, much the allocation of tax dollars? This is staggering. One would expect news coverage would generally reflect a 3 to 1 public support for the project. Opposition of HSR in CA is a lower than the percentage of GOP membership who believes the President may be the Anti-Christ.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris_Interactive_Poll_Politics_Wingnuts_2010_03.pdf
synonymouse Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
70% of the electorate is so thoroughly naive as to approach retardation. They could be brainwashed into sampling Jim Jones’ Kool-Aid.
But the rich aren’t – they know they won’t be paying for hsr or any other of the other undertakings of the welfare state. The present system is not sustainable. The Republicans recognize this fact – that’s why they can afford to take the hard line. At this point it appears there will be no deal with Jerry Brown as he wants an outright capitulation on the part of the GOP. Jerry will probably have to go the initiative route with his tax proposal unless the machine can intimidate or payola a few rogue Repubs.
I expect the Republicans to break up into Wall Street and Main Street factions anyway. We’ll be better off with multi-party system European-style so that more diverse points of view can be repersented.
nslander Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
So, the US has somehow become a welfare state without universal health care and its lowest overall tax burden since 1950; the CA GOP is suscetibel to outright capitualtion to comandeering Democrats at the state level while significant numbers of elected GOP politicians are going to turn their backs on their coporate donors and advocate “main street” to the extent it will cause the US to break from the 2 party system.
Or maybe people just want trains.
Off topic again here, But: As I kind of had a feeling this would happen…. Sec. LaHood has given Rick Scott one more week to change his mind on FL HSR. Seems after Scott has 90% of the FL politicians and probably businessmen after him, he appears to have suddenly gotten more curious about the local plan to save HSR from the state governor. The soap opera that is FL HSR continues. I don’t know if I, as a HSR supporter here in FL, can take this any longer! I really hope to see Rep. politicians SUE the gov for crossing the line as some have suggested.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/feb/25/lahood-gives-florida-another-week-to-save-high-spe/news-metro/
Paul H. Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
I think this means Florida is probably gonna get this system, with Amtrak taking the responsibility for the financials. The week time frame is to cover for Gov. Scott so its *seems* like he’s deliberating about this decisions, but really, its a political move. He knows he isn’t gonna go far as a politician if FLHSR is killed AGAIN. He got some terrible advice before, and now he’s seeing the light, hopefully.
Brian Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
the way I understand the governmental entity that would disperse funds (set up by the cities of Tampa, Lakeland, Orlando, and Miami), it would be independent of the state and of the private consortium that would design, build, operate, maintain and finance it. amtrak was floated as an entity early on in the discussions that could dole out the funds. however, local gov’ts here in FL wanted it to be independent of any potential bidding group. i am not too optimistic about Scott changing his mind – especially after he called the proposed system ‘obamarail’ just 2 days ago. i am thinking it is a shrewd move by LaHood (and also by Sen Nelson, he has been doing alot of behind the scenes work i have read) to give Scott’s opponents more time to figure out how to defeat Scott in the courts. what Scott did is highly suspect, possibly illegal (but then this is the Rick Scott of HCA/medicare fraud fame) under FL statute. and alot of republicans in the statehouse don’t want his HSR decision to set a precedent for other decisions for the next 4 years i am assuming. plus, there is alot of support both by the citizens and from BOTH political parties at the local and state level here (excepting the teabagger nuts). it will definitely be interesting to watch! one good thing is that if it passes, the fact that local government will be running the HSR show will insulate it from statewide politics in the future. especially when it comes time to fund Orlando to Miami segment. Look at the list of cities involved, it covers alot of the population of FL. and the proposed entity is bipartisan in its makeup.
Risenmessiah Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
It’s very conceivable that Scott will say he simply can’t stop the money being awarded to Amtrak. His strategy is that if the budget compromise strips HSR funding except for the CA project and Florida, then it will pit those politicians who won’t benefit from FLHSR against those communities that only benefit from other Amtrak services. That way, if there are any cost overruns and delays at all or service reductions for regular Amtrak services in Florida, Scott can wring his hands and say, “this is why I didn’t support it, not because I am against everything, but because this project lacked the correct level of oversight.”
Brian Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 6:40 pm
this has absolutely nothing to with Amtrak at this time. It has become part of the national partisan HSR political issue. you can thank the teabaggers and their republican supporters for that. Scott, I believe, wants more than anything to appeal to the teabaggers that got him elected (maybe even beyond FL as some have reported). Mark my words, even with another week, Scott will not agree to anything put forward – no matter how reasonable it may be. i must repeat, i truly believe the only way FL HSR will proceed is to bring this to the courts. read the following article
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/florida-gets-more-time-to-vie-for-high-speed-rail-money/1153859
of what Scott said about his meeting with LaHood today. it leaves me to think that both gentlemen were obviously not in the same meeting! Scott is clearly an ideologue and will not change his position on such a political issue this early in his political career. As I said before, I think LaHood made a clever decision to add a week so that FLHSR supporters could get their lawsuit ready to challenge the legality of Scott rejecting the HSR money. LaHood obviously must understand where Scott is going with this – as LaHood is not stupid. Unless I am really misreading Scott, this is headed to the FL supreme court. And, I think LaHood and the Obama administration will wait it out to the end. If Obama really wants to see HSR in the USA before he leaves office, FL is the only place it can happen in that time frame. That is ultimately what is driving this whole game being played right now. As much as I hate to say it, CA HSR will be affected by what happens in FL in the next month or two. I really believe that without FLHSR, CAHSR will be somewhat orphaned politically (unless CA can go it alone somehow). FLHSR in my mind is kind of like a test bed for CAHSR on a smaller scale as far as private investment and how much support government (local,state and federal) will give – especially since FL is a purple state. It would be a damn shame if FLHSR is stopped as both projects are viable and need to be built.
Risenmessiah Reply:
February 26th, 2011 at 12:42 am
I understand what you are saying. I was simply suggesting that Scott doesn’t have much say if Amtrak undertakes the project. At that is probably what he dearly wants because he figures that will put the squeeze on other Amtrak operations somewhere else. Don’t forget that the AutoTrain is also a big deal to Florida (and is unlike any other long distance train profitable I believe) Scott would love nothing more than have Amtrak choose between building FLHSR and keeping its service otherwise intact.
That said, I have no doubt that Scott wants a legal confrontation. But in the end, he has to sign any future bills that would allow completion of the project, so I’m not sure what purpose the lawsuit has.
A Fresno County lobbying delegation is headed east next week to discuss several HSR related issues and other regional issues with members of Congress and various federal agencies.
The 35 member delegation includes representatives of both the private and public sector in the region.
The Fresno group will discuss the importance of streamlining the environmental permitting process for HSR. They will point out that a streamlined process will reduce costs and allow funds to be used to build more miles.
Fresno’s delegation will also request that Fresno County be named the “National High Speed Rail Development Center”. They want that regional designation to include federal testing, certification, training, and research/development for HSR.
They are also requesting $50 million for planning, design, land acquisition, and ROW work for Fresno’s “Multi-modal High Speed Rail Station”. An additional $50 million is being sought for improvements to Golden State Blvd (the original highway 99) which would include a BRT corridor from the Fresno HSR station to the towns of Fowler, Selma, and Kingsburg. The funding requests seem difficult in the current economic and political climates.
Nice to see a local region include HSR in their lobbying efforts.
Their policy and project request talking point brochures:
http://www.fresnocog.org/files/OneVoice2011/2011%20Printable%20OV%20Regional%20Issues%20Brochure.pdf
http://www.fresnocog.org/files/OneVoice2011/2011%20One%20Voice%20Printable%20Project%20Brochure.pdf
Joe Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Fresno has a lot to gain.
Chicago is a good meeting city due to the airport connections.
Fresno would be fairly easy to reach from SF, LA and Sac. I could see it as a good place for a 1-2 day meeting where all need to travel a few hrs and can work that day, stay near the station and head back the next day.
JJJ Reply:
February 25th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
Thats the first Ive heard of a golden state BRT route, but it makes a lot of sense. The valley grew out of the UP tracks, so towns like Selma and Kingsburg are centered around them…but Amtrak uses BNSF, so it misses all those population centers. Meanwhile, golden state is straight, has few grade crossings (as it was the original highway) and is extremely underused because 99 is literally 15 feet away. Buses could easy do 55mph (the signed limit, I believe) and never have to deal with traffic.