Reason Foundation to Convince Florida to Abandon HSR?
When right-wing anti-rail candidates won gubernatorial elections in Wisconsin and Ohio and promptly killed HSR projects there, many wondered if Rick Scott would follow their lead. A wealthy right-wing extremist, Scott was elected governor of Florida in November and pledged to slash government spending of all kinds. But it wasn’t yet clear whether he would include the state’s fully-funded high speed rail project as one of his targets.
A recent report suggests he just might. One of Scott’s advisers is Robert Poole, who works for the Reason Foundation, which as we know is funded by oil companies, giving it a strong incentive to attack passenger rail. Poole and notorious train-hater Wendell Cox have authored a new report that claims Florida’s HSR project will cost twice as much, and won’t attract riders.
As usual, this “report” doesn’t actually prove either conclusion. Instead it infers that conclusion though the use of leaps in logic that are, at best, dubious. For example, here’s what they say about construction costs:
Robert Poole, one of Scott’s transportation transition team advisers, helped write the report, which states that the rail line that would connect Tampa and Orlando could cost $3 billion more than the current official estimate of $2.7 billion. The report even recommended abandoning the project altogether.
Florida’s cost estimate of $32.1 million per mile is more than doubled by estimates for a section of California’s high-speed rail line, which put the cost at $67.8 million per mile. Poole used a 64-mile stretch in California’s Central Valley, with flat lands comparable to Florida’s, to contrast the estimates.
“If the Florida project is low-balling the cost estimate to that extent, the cost could be double. And there are many reports in California saying those estimates are too low,” Poole said.
First of all, this does not at all prove that Florida’s HSR system will indeed go over budget. The only thing that could make such an indication is an assessment of the plan in Florida and, based on construction plans, materials costs, and labor costs, determining whether those are sound. It is not legitimate to say “well it costs so much per mile in CA, so obviously it will cost that much in FL.”
The estimates they arrive at for California are themselves based on projections, not on certainties. And the California Central Valley route includes two things the Florida route doesn’t – significant ROW acquisition costs, and a long, tall viaduct such as the one being built in Fresno. Most of the ROW for the Florida HSR system is already in state ownership, along the route of Interstate 4. And to my knowledge, no long, tall viaduct is being planned. Even if it were, one would need to compare materials costs, labor costs, environmental regulations, and so on in order to make an accurate comparison between the two proposals.
Poole engages in similarly ridiculous and flawed reasoning when examining the system’s ridership:
The Florida Department of Transportation points to two independent studies on ridership, one of which was conducted using population figures updated through 2009, to say that operating revenues will cover costs. According to those studies, about 2.4 million riders will use the rail in its first year, paying between $15 and $30 for a one-way ticket and generating $49 million.
But the Reason Foundation’s report is skeptical of those figures, noting that 2.4 million riders is two-thirds the ridership of the Amtrak Acela Express service, which serves New York, Washington, D.C., Boston, Philadelphia and Baltimore — areas that have eight times the population of Orlando and Tampa.
This is bullshit. Poole should be embarrassed to have put his name to this dishonesty. You can’t say “well because Florida proposed ridership that is 2/3rds of the Acela, there’s no possible way FL’s ridership can be accurate.” You would flunk a college logic course if you tried to make that claim. It is entirely plausible that FL HSR will have that kind of ridership. Unlike Acela, Florida’s system won’t share tracks, and will have far greater speeds. That means more trains can be run along the route, and can therefore serve the projected ridership.
What needs to be kept in mind about the Acela is that it is not anywhere close to having the capacity to properly and effectively serve the needs of the NEC. Dedicated tracks that can handle 220 mph trains would dramatically increase the Acela’s ridership, and in that case I might agree that FL HSR will not get 2/3rds of that kind of true HSR service. But as it stands now, the Acela is pretty much at capacity, and requires significant infrastructure investments to be able to carry the kind of passenger load that the corridor is capable of hauling.
Of course, these are all just smokescreens for the basic assumption by Poole and Cox that “nobody will ride trains”:
Besides the possible capital cost overruns, Poole and his co-author, Wendell Cox, are concerned that the gap between the rail’s yearly revenues and expenses could lead to a built-in annual subsidy for Florida taxpayers.
“History tells us that cost overruns could run into the billions and ridership shortfalls will likely leave taxpayers with an open-ended bill for operating subsidies,” Cox said.
Funny, the private companies proposing to operate the system don’t expect ridership shortfalls. That might be because they have actual experience with HSR, and take the time to look at the system closely, whereas Poole and Cox have long ago decided they hate HSR and are going to avoid looking at the actual details and instead just make up shit in order to try and derail the project.
What’s more, the companies have themselves said they’ll cover any cost overruns and are even willing to cover the state’s portion of the funding. Why would they do so unless they were convinced they would make money operating the system?
It’s obvious that Poole and Cox are simply fishing for reasons to kill the Florida HSR project before it can prove to America that HSR will be a success here. And while I’d love for some of Florida’s HSR money to come to California, I also recognize that we need national support for HSR, and that can be achieved by building successful HSR systems around the country.
Who knows how Rick Scott will react. He may use this report to justify killing Florida’s HSR project. If so, that would reveal more about Scott’s ideological agenda than it would about Florida’s suitability for HSR. We’ll take their money if it comes available, but I’d rather it stay there and help show America that HSR is an idea whose time has come.
I would be shaking in my boots if I was a FL HSR supporter. Until they break ground, this thing will be teetering like Byun-Hyun Kim in the World Series. But as flawed as the FL project is, I really hope it moves forward, for the sake of HSR in this country. I will also be shaking in my boots a bit until they break ground in CA on the CV line.
Chris G Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
As a NYer and Yankee fan, I just wanted to say I loved the BHK reference.
YESONHSR Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
CAHSR will be a go..totally different mindset then FLA with Scott
“But the Reason Foundation’s report is skeptical of those figures, noting that 2.4 million riders is two-thirds the ridership of the Amtrak Acela Express service, which serves New York, Washington, D.C., Boston, Philadelphia and Baltimore — areas that have eight times the population of Orlando and Tampa.”
2 points:
1. As you noted, this comparison is apples and oranges. The study should have examined all rail ridership on the northeast corridor, divided by 8, and then factored that FL rail will be cheaper and fast than anything in the northeast right now.
2. The population might be 8 times higher, but this ignores the fact that thousands upon thousands of tourists will use the train for Disney (I believe they said that when built, Disney would discontinue bus service).
It should be pointed out that the report is only talking about Acela express and not all the other acela services. Combine them together and you will get a picture where the NE corridor ridership is much higher than the projections for the FL system. Major distortion once again.
Clem Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Right. Acela Express is an all-premium service, i.e. business class and first. There is no coach / cattle class on the Acela Express. This premium product is sold at premium prices, and thus achieves only premium levels of ridership.
jimsf Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
all acela business and first only as far as I know.
jimsf Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
and acela and acela express are the same thing.
StevieB Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 6:39 pm
Acela 2010 projected ridership is 3.1 million but does not have exclusive use of the tracks in the northeast corridor. Amtrack ridership on regular rail service in the NEC in 2010 is another 8.7 million passengers. Projections for 2020 are 5 million Acela passengers out of 16 million total passengers on the NEC.
Alan F Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
The Amtrak FY10 ridership numbers for the Acela were 3.2 million, the Northeast Regionals 7.15 million (on the NEC), Keystone service (covers NYC to Philly on the NEC and the Keystone East corridor to Harrisburg) 1.3 million and probably a million or so more when the various corridor and long distance trains that run on the NEC to/from NY Penn Station are taken into account.
But the NEC is also shared with MARC, SEPTA, NJ Transit, Metro-North, SLE, MBTA commuter operations. Which according to the NEC Infrastructure Master Plan report from last May have a total of around 246 million annual commuter riders. And a grand total between Amtrak and the commuter lines of an average of 2,361 trains on a weekday. The NEC is a VERY busy corridor.
These reports on projected HSR numbers that only use the Acela ridership numbers for comparisons show that the authors of those reports don’t know how the NEC operates. The NE Regionals and Keystones operate up to 125 mph on the NEC and carry a lot of business travelers. If the purpose is to compare intercity travel numbers using the NEC, at a minimum they should be adding up the Acela, NE Regionals, and Keystone ridership numbers. Those numbers also don’t include all of the intercity traffic on NEC because a lot of people going between Philly and NYC to save money will take Septa to Trenton NJ and NJ Transit express trains to Newark or Penn Station in NYC. Not as comfortable or as fast as Amtrak, but it works.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:27 pm
That annual commuter traffic figure of 246 million sounds high. The “non-Amtrak” figure for FY 2009 was about 70 million. The 246 million figure could be “operator totals.”
“These reports on projected HSR numbers that only use the Acela ridership numbers for comparisons show that the authors of those reports don’t know how the NEC operates.”
The “alternative hypothesis” is that “the authors of those reports” know full well how the NEC operates – but misrepresent it because few away from the NEC know, or care, about how it operates. Besides, given the extremely short attention span of the “blogosphere,” it’s possible to get away with a lot – given a sufficient supply of gall. As I’ve said before: I believe that O’Toole, to give just one name, will resort to lying if he thinks he can get away with it. Just my opinion, of course, but I believe that the evidence is clear.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:42 pm
I just checked the source: 246 million for commuter traffic is “way” too high. The list of operators includes the Long Island Rail Road. OK, Penn Station and the East River tunnels are part of the NEC “infrastructure,” but I think this is a stretch.
Alan F Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:49 am
Yes, the 249 million number is probably due to Amtrak and the NEC working group padding the total passengers on the NEC. OTOH, the LIRR operations through Queens, the East River tunnels, and in Penn Station certainly impact and effect Amtrak NEC operations. The NEC interacts with SEPTA commuter trains from a number of lines at Zoo Interlocking leading to 30th street station. A lot of NJ Transit trains, not just the NEC corridor trains to Trenton, run on the NEC through Newark, Secaucus junction, and the North River (aka the Hudson River) tunnels to Penn Station, and then there are the LIRR & Metro-North operations. But these are the commuter lines which for the CA HSR system would run on a TBD combination of parallel tracks or shared tracks for Caltrain in SF and Metrolink & Surfliner in LA.
CA HSR is an intercity rail system (which can mean cities 30-40 miles apart BTW), but to keep the NEC comparison legit, any comparison has to include all the Amtrak intercity trains that run on the NEC, not just the Acela.
Of course, the NEC is not all that fast. The Amtrak NEC ridership numbers would clearly be higher if the NEC Improvement Program funding had been sustained in the 80s or 90s, rather than to get cut as the years went on. If Amtrak had been able to:
1. get the Acela trip times from DC to NYC down to the goal of 2:30
2. somehow managed to get the NYC to Boston trip times down to the long set goal of 3 hours,
3. replace the low swing/draw bridges in CT so Amtrak could run more than 39 trains a day (total, not round trip) between NYC and Boston,
4. and had gotten, IIRC, the original plan of 25 or more Acela trainsets, not the 20 they have,
NEC intercity ridership would be more than 12-13 million in 2010. While the trip times would not be hugely faster, the Boston to NYC faster times with more daily trains would make a marked difference in Boston to NYC, Philly, and DC ridership numbers.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 10:00 am
It isn’t outrageously high. The commuter railroads in metro NY carry over half a million passengers on an average weekday.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 11:10 pm
You’re using the wrong tense.
Clem Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 8:48 pm
Ah, right, it is now. Back in the day, the Northeast Regional was known as Acela Regional. It appears Amtrak found a branding clue since then.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:28 am
most of us miss metroliner which is a much better name than acela which is ridiculous and forced. metroliner flows much better. But this marketing crap come from marketing agencies that get paid to come with stuff. Stuff i could come up with while Im sleeping for gods sake. I mean do people actually make a career out of that?
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:36 am
“Miss Metroliner”–what could we do with that, along the lines of Pheobe Snow?
People do make careers of it, how I don’t know.
Sometimes I think the people in that business get frustrated, though. They have to come up with something “new” to justify their commissions, yet if they are honest, they will sometimes have to admit that what is there is best left alone–actually, that can justify your salary, too. I mean, a train named the Super Chief, the Empire Builder, or the Golden Arrow (there were trains with that name in England and the US) still has a resonance to it, still has cache, style, but then these people either have no confidence in saying “what you have is great,” or they have to make their mark just out of ego.
I wish I knew the secret to getting ahead besides being born into the lucky-sperm-and-egg club.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:06 am
The classic names do resonate. I would love it if they gave names to cali’s hsr trains.
Otherwise “the high speed rail” is what californians are going to default to calling it ( with our unexplainable penchant for attaching “the” to everything… the bart the amtrak the 101 the muni the light rail )
hmmm if amtrak’s not using the metroliner brand, maybe we can use it out here for hsr. ideally though Id prefer a system name with a california reference.
california express, golden state…., pacific …. etc. hmmm maybe the monarch, ( our state butterfly) but it would be even better to name each individual round trip departure. Regualr travelers would be able to reference their favorites by name. ” Sometimes I take the monarch, but I usually take the grizzlybear because it gets me home 15 minutes earlier.”
of course no one will agree with me on this because that now how they do it in japan so we can’t be allowed to think outside the box or be unique when creating things for california.
but my way is best.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:33 am
or in an ironic twist we could name it after our state mollusc The banana slug which, interestingly , somewhat resembles the color and shape of ca hsr renderings!
Yes I think this is indeed the way to go!
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:37 am
>a href=”http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=banana+slug+logo&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1680&bih=930″>Bananaslug 2309 now boarding…
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:38 am
bananaslug 2309 now borading
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Banana slug–ugh! Actually, I do see that at least some people out there think the creature is cool (it’s used in a number of logos for things like fire departments and at least one town), but I have to wonder why. No wonder some easterners think Californians are nuts!
Your idea of naming specific trains in a timetable is the traditional way of naming trains, although it should also be mentioned that many trains never had names, only numbers, and sometimes the name was unofficial or only semi-official, as in the case of the Pennsy’s Clockers (they departed at certain minutes on the hour, much like the Weather Channel’s “On The Eights” forcasts).
Some historic names with California associations included the Argonaut (SP), Arizona Limited (SP-CRI&P), California Limited (AT&SF), California Zephyr (CB&Q-D&RG-WP, later Amtrak), Californian (SP-CRI&P), several City series trains (City of Los Angeles, City of San Francisco, City of Las Vegas, all UP), assorted Daylight trains (Coast Daylight, Noon Daylight, and so on, all SP, the name is not strictly California, but the brand is so associated with SP as to make it a California-centric name in my opinion), El Capitan (AT&SF), Golden Gate (AT&SF), Golden Gate Special (UP), Golden Rocket and Golden State (SP-CRI&P), the Lark (SP, overnight train, not necessarily California-specific, but strongly associated with operator SP, like the Daylight), the Prospector (actually a D&RGW train in Utah, but it fits here, too), and others–and I have to include a Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines train, the Quaker City Express, which is a reference to Philadelphia, but could also be a reference to earthquakes! That’s no more ridiculous than the SP’s Sun Tan Limited!
Have fun with this link, which includes not only these trains, but others from around the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_named_passenger_trains
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Finally, what would be a good name for the railroad itself? Los Angeles & San Francisco (LA&SF reporting marks) is certainly descriptive and looks tradtional, but sounds unimaginative to me.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:53 pm
shasta is my favorite namesake. The mountain itself is the most grand you’ll find in america, and its sits with predominance at the very top of the state. I think there was a shasta daylight.
Peter Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
I personally like CalExpress, for California Express Railway.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Ooh, ooh, ooh–SP ran your train:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasta_Daylight
That train name link is cooler than I thought–if it has the train name listed in blue, that means there is a linked article to it; that’s how I found this one.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
as it is right now, all “california car” rolling stock is named with cali referenced names. all the rivers, mountains, counties, etc are represented.
James Fujita Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Naming can be a tricky business. We have to be careful to avoid using names already protected or already in use. For example, Golden State Express is a trucking company. Amtrak has sometimes had trouble getting permission to use names of “classic” trains.
Personally, I’d like to see some new names to represent this completely new generation of trains.
For the time being, until branches to Sacramento and San Diego get built, all trains are going to follow the same route from Anaheim-Los Angeles-Fresno-San Jose-San Francisco. Therefore, the more important job is going to be distinguishing between local all-stops, limited, express and superexpress non-stop trains; rather than giving individual names to every train within the service.
It could be something as simple as “San Francisco Express” or “Los Angeles Limited” would indicate destinations and the relative speed of the train. (“Los Angeles Limited” would even pay homage to history, to satisfy the D.P. Lubics of the world).
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:37 pm
First step would be to introduce Californians to the concept of express service. They frequently have difficult time grasping the concept. They seem to think that because there’s a platform all trains must stop at it all the time.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
^thats because we hate to see life pass us by.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
how bout ICX. intercityxpress or IntraCaliforniaXpress
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
ICX would meld nicely with DX ( desert xpress) as well. and could could break it down…
ICX for express runs
ICL for limiteds
ICV or ICR (IntraCaliforniaVitesse or rapide) for regualr service
plus DX
then later when the full system is built out
you can add
ICG (IntraCaliforniaGrande)
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:22 pm
a direct ( no transfer) SF-SD run would be an
ICGL ( IntraCaliGrandeLigne)
James Fujita Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 2:18 am
I hate all of jim’s naming ideas.
first, it’s an alphabet soup of unremarkable acronyms.
second, you’re using French in a state where English and Spanish are prominent. Rapido, not Rapide. Linea, not Ligne. Velocidad, not Vitesse. To be honest though, I don’t like “Rapido” either.
third, it doesn’t even say “California”
Japanese trains are forces of nature, but the train which goes to Tokyo International Airport is Narita Express. No confusion there and California Express would work.
Also, see my above comment on naming services, not individual trains.
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 7:40 am
well id ot like yours either and french is a lot nicer language than english or spanish. california express is what I said. CX or intra califoria express ICX because three syllables flows better
so ICX and ICL for express and limiteds does work and again, will blend nicely when DX is thrown into the mix.
If you just call it california express, long version, the first thing californians are going to do is make up six different ways to abbreviate it and the put “the” in front those. Don’t argue with me I know what Im talking about. just you watch.
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 7:46 am
in fact I can tell you exaclty the first misnomer they ( californians ) will come up with and itll stick and itll be really annoying… if you dont give it a name and shorten it for them, into a a three letter version that rolls off the tongue (ICX for instance) they are gonna call it “the speed rail”
“hey im taking that speed rail thing” “oh yeah I took the speed rail the fresno last year its so cool”
mark my words. this is what will happen. then you’ll be hearing it on tv called that my newsmodels.
youll see, then we’ll all be sorry. the speed rail. yep. I can hear it now.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Three-letter acronyms remind me of FBI, CIA, and NSA too much.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Speedrail does have a historic lineage:
http://www.trainweb.org/twerhs/speedrail.html
Where this is from; Nathaniel will like this:
http://www.trainweb.org/twerhs/index.html
James Fujita Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
I’m going to start calling it “The Speed Rail” just to annoy Jim French.
seriously, “California Speed Rail” might work.
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
oh no you di’ int
James Fujita Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:41 pm
I fail to see how The Speed Rail is worse than “Icy Ex”
I’m riding my icy ex to Los Angeles! :D
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
hmmm
well theres the TTX trans tehachapi express.
or the TCX trans cali express
or the
49er (gold rush)
grizzly (state flag)
Eureka ( motto)
golden state flyer
( in missouri they had a contest to name the new amtrak runs a while a back the missourians chose missouri river runner — bleh but they chose it)
hmmmm I guess the “goldrush” could work, implies being in a hurry…
the starlette ( if its stopped in hollywood)
or maybe just the Star hmm i like that. ( a favorite bette davis movie too)
oooh I know, we can name the trains after all the stars
the Stanwyck, the Crawford, the Hayworth,
or MetroCal
I still like ICX. intracaliforania express Its like the german ICE
I suppose we could even use ICE if we don’t mind being copycats.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
Riding your icey ex–naughty, naughty! Sounds like you do better than George Strait, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMNw_-yUm_0
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:48 pm
I had a icy ex once. haven’t we all.
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:52 pm
i still like,, from an ironic cali sense of humour standpoint – the slug.
im telling you our state slug, the banana slug looks just like those yellow cahsr train renderings.
If not the official name, i hearby declare it the unofficial nickname. I call it based on seniority.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:59 pm
TTX is in use–those are the reporting marks for Trailer Train (flatcar leasing outfit).
I think there was a train named the 49er, I’ll have to check that train name link to confirm. . .
Star names–certainly original, and with a California heritage, too. Of course, we could also go astronomical, with Aurora (actually an Alaska Railroad train), Orion (also a studio in California, Charles Bronson made a number of films for that outfit over the years), the Mercury (hey, that one was on the NYC), and of course there are other mythical (Apollo), astonomical and star names that might be worthwhile, but I think I would avoid Betelgeuse, which is pronounced “beetle juice.”
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Off topic, but on the subject of unusual railroad names, there is the Head On Collision Line, reporting marks HOCX; it is or was a tank car leasing firm based out of Chicago.
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
i like the astronomical names you mentioned too.
But the star, or starlette (speaking of) is good. ( “but not to be had for the price of a cocktail, like a salted peanut” of course)
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Well, if you like slugs, I guess I can’t change your mind, perhaps it’s not as bad as the South Lake Union Streetcar, or South Lake Union Trolley, or S.L.U.T., a trolley line in Seattle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lake_Union_Streetcar
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
thats awesome
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:09 am
Once Caltrain is defunct we should use that name for CAHSR.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:13 am
I don’t like the caltrain name. its lame for one, and two, everyone confuses it with caltrans. they cal it caltrans all the time around here and it bugs the hell out of me.
people can’t even read I swear.
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
I guess I couldn’t come up with any other descent names that incorporated CA. Caltrak? Calrapid? Caliliner? Goldrail? Goldtrack? Muirrail? The only things people can agree on in CA that they like are gold and John Muir. How about other great things that are common to CA or that CA is known for? Urban Sprawl-rail? Mini-mall-rail? Boob-job-rail? Rhinoplastytrak? Hippie-rail? Granolarail? Obviously I am completely out of ideas…
The only good name for a rail service in CA is Pacific Surfliner. Some of the others, like The Sprinter, The San Juaquins, and ACE are just lame.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:26 pm
oh i do like granolarail. lol pretty funny. its need to be catchy, and create a good acronym
James Fujita Reply:
January 10th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
The official name for Amtrak is National Rail Passenger Corporation. The official name for Metrolink is Southern California Regional Rail Authority. Clearly finding a catchy OFFICIAL name isn’t that important and California High-Speed Rail Authority can remain once construction is done.
As far as a nickname is concerned, what’s wrong with Bullet Train? California Bullet Train. I’m taking the Bullet Train to San Francisco. It works even if the trains aren’t shaped like bullets, because they are “faster than a speeding bullet”
What’s that, you say? The Japanese already use that name? Well, that’s partially true, but that’s a nickname given to it and primarily used by Westerners.
Sports frequently transposes names from one region to another or even from one sport to another. Tokyo borrowed the name and colors of the New York/ San Francisco Giants. MLS has (Manchester) DC United, Real (Madrid) Salt Lake, FC (Barcelona) Dallas and an American version of Chivas.
so… California Bullet Train!
jimsf Reply:
January 10th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
i never cared for bullet train, even way back in olden times when we first heard about the japanese endeavor. I prefer high speed train to bullet train.
of course, one day it may just be “the train” when traveling at 125-220 becomes common place throughout cali. some day.
until then, I think Ill go with Star. or “California Star Service”. implies something special about it overall and resonates with our culture.
James Fujita Reply:
January 10th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
you’d better hurry up and promote that idea then, because “bullet train” is already in common usage…
jimsf Reply:
January 10th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
well then Id better hurry and call up the california department of naming crap ( aka the CDNC) and let them know pronto.
Peter Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 7:57 am
I’d go with CalStar, if it didn’t already stand for California Shock Trauma Air Rescue…
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 8:34 am
has a nice ring.
http://www.ladowntownnews.com/articles/2011/01/07/news/doc4d2758c5d489f875035934.txt
One might wonder if CAHSR has funds to purchase LA Union station at this stage in the process if they are not also proposing a completed usable segement to the legislature for Prop1A appropriation? How much? and from where?
Bret Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
also makes you wonder if they will push to connect Bakersfield-Palmdale-LA sooner if they have a stake in the station.
Peter Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 7:08 pm
I don’t think they need a useable segment to make critical land acquisitions, even using bond funding. If the Legislature says they can do it, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to make the purchase.
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:12 am
I am all for CAHSR and Metro owning Union Station. But I think CAHSR should be out of the station business and focus on the track business. They already blew $400M on Transbay Terminal and should save every nickel to pay for building tracks. This is a bad precedent. Local agencies should pay for stations. In this case it should be Metro and the City and County of LA.
While I agree FHSR is poorly designed using i4 ROW and putting stations there and not in town and not even going into Orlando proper, Cox is well a….
I can only hope the Feds and the Pres pull the money asap from FL and give it to states that want to use it. Be is CA or IL or NY or NC/VA.
YESONHSR Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:27 pm
If he pulls the plug on it I sure hope they will be able to divert the money to the other projects at this point..thou they should be able. Im hoping it will be built and then on to south Fla to really make it a postive outcome
The Poole-Cox-Otoole-unReasonables are at their worst and loudest before construction begins. Right now is the time for pushback. Losing Florida HSR would be a tragedy of national impact.
That said, the narrow chance of getting some of that money is alluring.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
How do you effectively push back? I tried years ago with a light rail line, but failed terribly. What ideas might you suggest? I’m hoping I might see something different from what I tried back then.
One thing we have in our favor when compared to Florida—-Jerry Brown won’t be taking much advice from the Reason Foundation.
YESONHSR Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
really!!! strange as it is their HQ is WestLA..left overs from Cali past!!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:38 pm
Ho, ho, ho, ho!
Donk Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
Christmas is over, enough.
How can anybody doubt that FL HSR will reach 2.4 million annual riders? The train will directly serve Disney World, which gets more than 25 million visitors a year. There are already 2.2 million riders on the the Magic Express Shuttle Bus from the Orlando airport. And, if they manage to build it, what self-respecting parent would take their kids to Disney and NOT treat them to a ride on the bullet train?
Spokker Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:42 pm
Note that they only mentioned the populations of Tampa and Orlando, not the number of tourists that visit.
Andre Peretti Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:37 am
Ignoring the tourists when predicting ridership is really moronic.
If I take the example of Corsica, where I now live (Corsica is an island in the Mediterranean, 150 miles off the French coast):
Population: 299,800
Passengers in 2009: airports 2,790,063. Seaports: 4,727,035. Total: 7,828,478.
That’s more than 26 times the local population.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:42 am
wow you live there? kewl!
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:44 am
so what’s the deal with this thing
Andre Peretti Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 10:45 am
It was built in 1890 by Compagnie Gustave Eiffel, like the Eiffel tower. It is 84m high (275.59ft), and is the highest viaduct in Corsica. The view from the train is really breathtaking.
The piles, made of local granite, were so perfectly assembled that they are still like new, after 120 years.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:14 am
well I couldn’t possibly more envious of you. born in france but not a citizen, I have always wished I lived there instead of here.
Andre Peretti Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
American tourists often say Corsica is a little California, with the mediterranean climate, the blue sea on one side and snowy mountain tops on the other. So, you have nothing to regret: California is a big Corsica.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
yes ive always thought that california and france ( and italy as well and maybe spain to some extent) are very similar in the med climate, the sea, the high mountain ranges and the abundance of fine produce, beef, dairy, and wine products available. There is a lifestyle that goes with all that. we just don’t have the 1000 year old chateaux and roman aqueducts and such.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
Or the good health care systems, or the good eating habits… California is still America, contrary to what Sarah Palin says.
jimsf Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 7:34 am
” California is still America, contrary to what Sarah Palin says.”
well i’d certainly love to change that.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
It doesn’t matter – an independent California would still be culturally American.
synonymouse Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Plus California is regionalized. Don’t forget the Jefferson movement. The state probably should have been divided in the beginning, just as San Mateo County should remained part of SF County.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:47 am
oh I see its chemin de fer de corse TER. So they have their own complete network on the island.
Andre Peretti Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:53 am
It has nothing in common with the fast TERs on the mainland. It’s single narrow-gauge (1m) track. As the island is very mountainous there are many curves and trains have to go slow.
The network is less complete than before the war. At the end of the war, the Germans destroyed all the viaducts on the straightest and fastest line. This portion was never rebuilt. The rail were hastily ripped off and sold as scrap metal and the ROW was sold to farmers. When people realised trains would never return, it was too late.
Corsican trains are crowded in summer and half-empty the rest of the year. They are operated by the SNCF on 9-year contracts.
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:14 am
I love how you feel the need to explain where Corsica is to all us morons in America.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:19 am
well, if I go outside right now to the corner of market and 8th and 500 people including the suburban ones standing outside the orpheum theater and asked if they know where corsica is, exactly 500 of them won’t have any idea.
The only ones who will know are the many french tourists who stay across the street at the whitcomb
Andre Peretti Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
You know, I am in charge of booking American musicians for a local guitar festival and I always have to explain where Corsica is. They are excusable. It’s so small on the map.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
i know about it cuz i took years of french in school which included some french geograpahy.
In other news, Robert and this site are on the Transport Politic, in a discussion on Florida:
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2011/01/07/a-fiscally-conservative-approach-is-the-right-one-for-florida-high-speed-rail/
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:36 pm
And in other Florida rail news, the Tampa streetcar line opened a short extension recently;video clip partway down in this line, looks very good at full-screen:
http://www.tamparail.org/
This trolley line is an example (along with the streetcars of New Orleans and the cable cars of San Francisco) of what I call a “dual service” transit line, in that it hauls both tourists and regular commuters and other local passengers. Interestingly, it’s my understanding that the Washington Metro, with its ultra-modern equipment and design, does the same thing, and in fact tourists at times outnumber its regular commuters–all of which leads to more traffic to pay the bills, with a cost recovery much better than the bus system.
Nathaniel will like this (as do I)–and it is amazing how this line, with its palm trees, stucco and art-deco architecture in places, sunshine, and yellow cars, reminds me so much of the Los Angeles Railway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLBczog8Sig
It’s the weekend, time for a bit of fun.
oooh we just had a 4.4 quake. I love those things!
GoGregorio Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Jim, I was 10 miles from it! We kinda freaked out here. My sister said she could feel it as far away as Berkeley.
jimsf Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Imm on the 23rd floor in sf. New construction.. Been in a couple in this building since I moved in. The building acts a certain way. It felt like a 2 or 3 here because we are 60 miles away. That morgan hill area calaveras fault is fairly active.
wu ming Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
4 is a pretty modest little quake. things don’t start breaking until you get up into the 6s.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:24 am
unless you are right on top of a shallow 4 like the one that did some damage in the alamo area a few years ago.
The forida high speed rial site kinda sucks. I cant even find a map of the system there.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Does this help?
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/fast-facts/
Someone had a Florida site here recently, had a lot of engineering stuff on it in considerable detail; I wonder if it is here anywhere?
jimsf Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:48 pm
yes that helps. I couldn’t find it on the horribly dull, poorly designed florida site.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:56 pm
This is one site you have to poke around to find things. Lot of good material here, though, as I think you’ll find out. Main problem is that some of this stuff is, well, not adequately labeled. That can be frustrating.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Ah, I knew it was around somewhere–go to “Procurement and Contracting” on the home page, which will take you to here:
http://flhsr.squarespace.com/procurement-contracting
Then go tho “Key Map” link, which takes you here:
http://flhsr.squarespace.com/interactive-map
There is this, too:
http://flhsr.squarespace.com/early-works-projects/
I’ll let you explore from here. Have fun.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:23 am
and why is everything in blue. Is that the only color they have access to in florida? website=yawn. but then what can you expect from a place like florida. oh sure their orange juice is good, but who wants to live there.
Japan has offered to help fund a Washington-Baltimore maglev line:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iZ0pxrDpi9r8t0zOLX-z2NTbCCOg?docId=CNG.a873154189fae54fc673166df8ae65f2.d81
Alon Levy Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
I’d like to say that it’s stupid and gold-plated, but the reality is that the Chuo Shinkansen’s per-km cost is the same as that of Amtrak’s Next-Gen HSR proposal.
MGimbel Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
And faster. I’m usually against maglev because of its high initial cost and incompatibility with existing rail. But if it can be built for the same cost per km as Amtrak’s plan, then it’s definitely worth pursuing.
Drunk Engineer Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 7:56 pm
The way things are going, one is tempted to say the same for the CA HSR project. Esp. if they end up building SF-LA as one long concrete aerial and no interoperability with existing lines.
Alan F Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 8:15 pm
The newspaper article loses points when it says:”…, link Washington with Baltimore some 60 miles (100 kilometers) to the north and currently an hour’s train ride away.” No, DC to Baltimore is about 35 miles and a half hour on a non-stop Acela.
But with only several operational maglev systems in the world, none of them covering that much distance, any projected cost estimates to build, maintain, and operate a intercity maglev line have to be taken with a truck load of salt. Maglev is a technology that has been in development for decades with numerous proposals with little to show for it. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Besides, if the NIMBYs in California freak out at the idea of a 220 mph steel wheel HSR train – leaving a shock wave of destruction in it’s path!!! – what is going to be the reaction of the NIMBYs in Maryland to a proposed 340 mph maglev train? 340 mph is going to create a significant amount of noise, even without wheels.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Meh. Think of it the other way: it’s not that maglev is good because it costs the same as Amtrak, it’s that Amtrak is crap because it costs the same as maglev.
synonymouse Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 9:56 pm
Can the Japanese iteration of Maglev climb the Grapevine at grade at high speed?. Could it round 101′s curves? Is it driverless?
Go for it, JNR, or whatever passes for it now. Why not, PB’s hsr scheme is just another BART money pit on a more grandiose scale. Boy, would driverless piss off the TWU, or Amalgamated, or whatever.
Peter Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:12 pm
“Can the Japanese iteration of Maglev climb the Grapevine at grade at high speed?”
Yes, as could Transrapid, IIRC.
“Could it round 101′s curves?”
Not any better (worse, in fact, IIRC) than standard HSR could.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
I don’t know about JR-Maglev, but Transrapid is capable of much higher cant and tilt than conventional rail. In Shanghai the lateral acceleration peaks at 3.6 m/s^2, corresponding to a total equivalent cant of 517 mm. And Siemens claims that the technology is capable of about 4.3, i.e. 600 mm.
Technically, maglev is strictly better than conventional rail. The problems are that the cost escalation risk is too high and it’s completely incompatible with existing infrastructure.
Peter Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:29 pm
Doh, sorry, my bad, I was thinking about that-other-gadgetbahn, tube-rail, or whatever it was called.
In terms of building it along 101 on the Peninsula, you’d still have the same constructability problems that you do with conventional rail.
synonymouse Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:32 pm
It occurred to me that there is an upside to the cretins at PB having spurned the optimal California north-south route in favor of the Loop detour. It leaves the best alignment available to a maglev scheme, vastly faster than the circuitous CAHSR, thoroughly hobbled by a politicized regional mass transit focus. I could conceive of Branson and other notables investing in such an undertaking, as it has true profitability potential. Of course it would have to remain strictly under private control, with sappers like Bechtel and Palmdale kicked smartly to the curb.
Maglev over Tejon, I-5, Altamont to SFO. The airlines might even be interested.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 11:11 pm
To SFO but not Downtown SF?
Joey Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 11:31 pm
He wants to make it even more airline-surrogatey.
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 12:44 am
Exactly – no particular need to be compatible with legacy systems. Look at stupid BART, which could have benefited from compatibility and standardization.
If the higher speed pans out to maybe 225 and with the much shorter route the time savings could be on the order of an hour. The UP CEO estimated the CAHSR to top out at around 160-180, which I suspect is about right. Maglev will have trouble with snow, heat and dust but so will the CAHSR.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
The point of reaching SF is not to be compatible with legacy systems. It’s to get people to their primary destination, rather than to be a diamond-plated airport feeder.
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 5:57 pm
“A diamond-plated airport feeder” could be profitable and attractive to investors. The key question is whether the Japanese maglev is truly ready for prime time and, if so, is this Japan, Inc. making the NEC proposal. They have the billions on hand to build a 500 mile maglev, no problem. Especially, if it is a Japanese consortium that does all the engineering and construction.
What is the distance between Livermore and Valencia? What, somewhat over 400 miles? AT an average speed of 200mph two hours(maybe better)is pretty damn attractive. There are a whole lot of people with money for a maglev ticket who would find their way to either loading point. Connecting airporter type buses would connect well too. They would have to come to an arrangement with Caltrans over the ROW but with enough coin many things are possible.
Peter Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
” ‘A diamond-plated airport feeder’ could be profitable and attractive to investors.”
Not if there’s an operating competitor (CAHSR) that actually gets passengers to where they want to go (the downtown). I don’t know anyone whose destination is an airport.
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 6:20 pm
Well, if you are in Santa Barbara, Ventura or Simi Valley, etc. the maglev would be closer.
Exotic tech, high speed, smooth and quiet, express – no problem, no question, no brainer. Adios PB
Alon Levy Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
In case anyone cares, at Chuo Shinkansen costs, connecting LA to SF would cost $140 billion.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:32 pm
for what it’s worth, railroads, buses, ferry boats, all over the world are diamond plated.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Diamond_Plate.jpg
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 10:58 pm
But if the maglev construction costs remain totally exorbitant how can the Japanese propose to build NYC to DC? Something doesn’t compute.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 11:23 pm
They’re only talking about Baltimore to DC, i.e. really fast commuter rail.
By the way, I just realized I eyeballed the costs wrong. Instead of $140 billion, it would likely be $110 billion. Apologies to JR Central for implying something negative about the construction costs of an intercity subway.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:32 am
Really fast commuter rail if it doesn’t make any stops where there are commuters – the suburbs between DC and Baltimore. If it makes all the stops MARC does it won’t be so fast.
The 110 or 140 or whatever account for the all new ROW through places like Baltimore, Philadelphia, Newark, Manhattan – the new tunnel from West New York to the Bronx is going to be expensive – Fairfield County and Boston? Even if you use the existing NEC it’s going to have to be teetering on an elevated structure between New Haven and Trenton.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Yes, the $110 (for the NEC) accounts for the all-new ROW. It’s the same as in Japan, where the Chuo Shinkansen is more than 60% in tunnel, including under all of Tokyo and through the Japanese Alps. Japanese rail construction is expensive, but there’s usually a reason.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 5:34 am
BART’s oddball track gauge has certainly not turned out to be a wise decision. Out of curiousity, how big a job would it be to refit the system to something closer to normal standards, i.e., like the Washington Metro?
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:20 am
well at this point bart is close to being fully built out. Once the livermore and santa clara extensions are done. all that remains is the peninsula if that happens. So the gauge is only an issue when procuring rail cars and that only happens every 20 years or so. There’s no point in changing it now.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 10:03 am
The track doesn’t last forever. Everything that goes on below floor level has to be done the extra special BART way. That’s very expensive.
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
I suggest the only way existing BART track would be materially altered would be if the basic technology were changed. Unlikely at this juncture.
On the other hand an entirely new line, say out Geary and over the GG Bridge, could be built to standard gauge and even ocs. BART might like to branch out, as with ebart.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
one there will never be in a thousand years… is a bart line or any other alteration, to the golden gate bridge. this I can assure you. its never going to happen. not now. not ever. as is never.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
“one thing” i meant. oh my typing and the lack of edit feature!
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
A thousand years is a long, long time. It was only a few decades ago that highway interests(namely the GG Bridge District itself)were planning a second deck for autos. The new decking is much less weighty and the bridge can accommodate light rail. The bridge has to be put to the most efficient and intensive use feasible as it is steel in saltair and requires constant and expensive maintenance. Adding a deck for light rail won’t affect its aesthetics but meantime adds to its utility and raison d’etre.
Peter Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:39 pm
I’ve been trying to find the results of the 1990 feasibility studies on a second deck. Does anyone know what the results of the studies were?
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
laying hands on and altering the gg bridge in anyway is akin to desecrating the shroud of turin in these parts. it won’t be allowed. they’ve propsed things before to public outcry. even lighting the bridge back in the 80s caused a public ruckus. as has a decades long battle over a moveable divider and the same with the decades long battle over a suicide barrier.
synonymouse Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
The mood of the populace can do an absolute about-face in the course of one generation. Don’t put too much credence or substance in any report generated by the Bridge District as they are well aware of how much more lucrative a second deck for autos would be over a non-toll-paying
rail facility.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
not here. not on that.
Joey Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
jim – a second deck, especially for light rail/rapid transit would create minimal aesthetic modification to the bridge. It would be built below the existing deck, not above, within the support structure under the roadway. This was the original BART proposal, which was canceled not because of public complaints but because of an assertion by the Bridge District that it was not structurally feasible (questionable at best, especially since rapid transit trains are so light).
Peter Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
From what I can gather, the main structural problem was not added weight, but the additional loads from wind with the additional deck.
Joey Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
There were even later proposals to put another road deck in that space, which of course would require many more modifications and add a lot more weight.
Joey Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Substantial. Ballasted track is relatively easy to replace but there’s a lot of slab in tunnels and on viaducts that you’d have to rip out and redo. Oh, and new, less proprietary signaling, and probably platform height modification to be more standard. Ultimately though, if you were undertaking a project of this magnitude, it would make more sense to built something compatible with mainline rail (25kV OCS, ETCS, etc), though that would probably be even more expensive as you’re looking at tunnel widening and different weight requirements on viaducts.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
one imagines it could be simple as leaving everything in place but just moving one rail closer in. assuming everything else would still line up ok using standard equipment. yould have to move the the third rail and and adjacent rail in to standard gauge and leave the platform side rail as is? of course, the third rail and platforms switch back and forth throughout the system. or you could lay and additional rail inside the two existing rails and operate two types of rolling stock at once. maybe?
Although I don’t think much of the Florida line, I wouldn’t be happy to see it go, unlike the Midwestern lines. The money California would get out of it would be immense, but still not enough to do LA-Bakersfield, and the national politics of HSR would become toxic; it would be viewed as only for coastal elitists. Politically, I’d rather take my chances with FLHSR and hope it doesn’t flop too badly than reduce what was called a national pot of money to a California-only grant.
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 12:01 am
Aren’t FL people also coastal elitists? Or because they are a purple state are they not considered elitists?
Screw the middle of the country.
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 12:03 am
Except Chicago. They have good pizza.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:27 am
the best.
Al Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 10:35 am
Is that… elite pizza?
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
best pizza in town imo closest we have to it.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Coastal = West Coast, plus East Coast from DC north; Chicago is optional. People in Jacksonville, Savannah, and Tidewater North Carolina will be puzzled if you lump them together with people in New York and Boston.
Also, Chicago-style pizza isn’t real pizza. You may like it, but that doesn’t make it real pizza any more than my liking tofu makes it into real meat.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
it is real pizza actual italians were involved.
As a supporter of FLHSR and a resident here in FL I have to say that this report is bullshit. The “Reason” Foundation is so far libertarian and out of the mainstream (even for Florida). A lot of local and state politicians still support HSR. Because of the strong support from foreign companies that Robert alluded to, I believe that Rick Scott will actually listen to them. I honestly don’t think Scott is that partisan (unlike Ohio and Wisconsin). He is actually from California for gods sake! On the plus side, the FDOT (IMHO) has done a decent job so far on the project. If Scott can be convinced of the ultimate plan to build to Miami then it is very likely he will not be easily influenced by reports such as this.
Also, some have mentioned website design. The FLHSR website might not be ideal, but in my opinion the amount of detail on it far exceeds anything on any other US HSR website (and that includes CAHSR).
Victor Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:29 pm
Well lets hope Governor Scott keeps the money, After all free money and operators that would pickup any costs above the money already put down can’t be scoffed at, Tampa(airport?) to Disneyworld ought to increase tourism to there I’d think.
Peter Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
It connects to Orlando Airport, not Tampa Airport. Both endpoints are controversial, IIRC.
Victor Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Oh, Ok, Tourists will still use HSR to go to Disneyworld, As It’s easier than renting a car and driving there I’d think.
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:17 am
no ca site is much better. I couldn’t even find a basic map on the florida site. There are no videos. No interactive map. Nothing. Its very dull and basic.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 7:29 am
Jim, did you get to check out the other links I posted from the Florida site? There’s a fair amount of technical detail there, including profiles and proposed track arrangements. Not always pretty or animated, but a lot more in the way of hard technical stuff.
And please don’t forget that Rick Scott won by only 50000 votes! He does not speak for the majority as more Floridians are Democrats than Republicans.
Peter Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 7:47 pm
Well, he speaks for the majority of Floridians who voted in the last election…
YesonHSR Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 8:25 pm
Nationwide a very poor 42% showed up to vote..compared to 68%+ in 2008..voting does have results when you dont care to show up
Matt L. Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:46 pm
Elections have consequences. Sadly for HSR, they did in FL too. More telling, though, is Scott’s poor job approval rating compared to the rest of the 2010 Governors.
http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2011/01/rating-new-governors.html
I haven’t found many good scientific polls of the state, but I suspect the project is popular.
I have been following the progress of the Florida High Speed Rail line since the original funds were awarded. I am originally from Central Florida, so it is of particular interest. I am also a licensed and practicing civil engineer.
While the Tampa to Orlando line (as a stand-alone route) is not ideal from an engineering perspective, the decision to initially allocate so much of the stimulus money to the route was still very wise in my opinion. This line can be built relatively quickly and serve as an excellent demonstration project for the rest of the country.
Rick Scott’s words and actions have been troubling. While I am heartened he did not outright kill the project as the governors of OH and WI did, he seems to have engaged in all too much verbal walk back and goalpost moving anyones’ comfort. I was particularly discouraged to learn that the “Reason” foundation is connected to his Administration, the same “Reason” foundation funded by the Koch brothers and other oil interests.
Is Rick Scott being a shrewd businessman, trying to get others to cover as much of the cost as possible?
Or is Scott trying to turn public opinion against the project before he kills it with these thinly veiled “Reason” foundation studies?
Scott’s approval is pretty poor among new governors in the Class of 2012, and he boxed himself into a corner waiting for the upcoming feasibility study.
With foreign investors offering to cover extra costs, is there any reason to expect large surprises in this feasibility study?
Given that they went to the same school of dishonesty that John Kasich did, they won’t stop with FL. If anything, they may have their sights on CA next.
Matt L. Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
Oh, I believe they most certainly will set their sites on CA. Even though the political climate in CA is more favorable, this attempt to smother HSR in its crib isn’t entirely about partisan politics. Look no further than the donor list to the “Reason” foundation, and see that the Oil industry has a vested interest in killing off rail projects, as they have done for decades.
The nice thing about Florida is that there is a narrow window in which to kill the project. Miss that window, and Florida HSR could be the gateway project for more around the country. It becomes increasingly hard for Big Oil and their think tank front groups to argue that what works in places A, B, and C won’t work for you.
I suspect that libertarian moonbattery may be more appealing in the Central Valley than in FL, and with such a long and often invisible construction (i.e., the train to nowhere argument), it can be very easily to start turning public perception against the project. Especially if cost overruns and design problems arise.
Donk Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 12:06 am
They are probably going to publish something saying that the route goes to Borden, with a quadruple decker station in downtown Borden, ie next to the Terrible Herbst mini-mart.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 5:38 am
I’ve never been west of Columbus, Ohio–looks like I have to get out there one of these days to see the sites. . .
http://www.terribleherbst.com/
wu ming Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 12:27 am
“they” don’t have anywhere near the votes in CA do do much of anything, thankfully.
Off topic, but interesting article in the Epoch Times:
When it Comes to High-Speed Rail, Chinese Negotiators Play Hardball
Jerry Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Great article. Thanks.
Just because the Reason Foundation has a pro-oil agenda doesn’t necessarily mean that they have adjusted their agenda to thank the oil companies; often times it works the other way around.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Yeah, you’re probably right. Reason’s style of libertarianism is always supportive of the current dominant industries, especially against claims of social or environmental damage, predatory business practices, and the importance of luck. Thus Reason has argued that VHS is superior to Betamax and QWERTY is superior to Dvorak. It chose to be a shill for big oil and big auto (and before them big tobacco) on its own, based on an independently-derived ideology.
Spokker Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
I write my crap posts so much more quickly on a Dvorak keyboard.
I still need QWERTY though because my typewriter jams all the damn time.
Andre Peretti Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 4:48 am
Our inner brain treats any change as a danger signal while our cortex analyses situations.
I suspect Reason and Cato of being inner-brain-oriented. By short-cicuiting people’s cortex they also manage to create enduring subliminal links like “rail=boondoggle”.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 5:44 am
“Our inner brain treats any change as a danger signal while our cortex analyses situations.
I suspect Reason and Cato of being inner-brain-oriented.”–Andre Peretti
That could explain a lot of things. When I was trying to promote that light-rail interurban in West Virginia, a county commissioner said I should do it if I could raise the money to run it as a business. I challenged him back, saying, “OK, you do the same for that highway as a private toll road.” He exploded in reply, “You can’t do that!”
This particular commissioner once ran a gas station and convenience store (he had gone out of business some years before, however). I was later told his education was relatively limited (high school only, no college), and that he could become “frightened” of “smarter people.” Those are quotes by someone who knew him far longer than me. Oh, he was a Democrat, so this “disease,” if that is even a correct name, is not restricted to Republicans!
I look at the other things around (criticism of Obamacare, the deficit, the claims from years ago that I was trying to take people’s cars away and bring back the horse and buggy), and you’re right, what stands out is that everyone is afraid. The “take people’s cars away” argument looks especially crazy and fearful; I never said that, and wouldn’t want to do it, I just wanted another choice. At most, I want to deemphasize cars, for oil reasons, traffic reasons, and so on. Yet these others jumped right to that conclusion of confiscating their cars, their “freedom.”
This whole business, and the criticisms of your own HSR project, sounds so different from how the country seems to have been in the 1940s through the later 1960s. It is as if this country has lost its nerve, its confidence. I’ve mentioned it before, but a coworker of mine commented that he thought a lot of this “came from people seeing the wrong changes” over time.
If that’s so, it’s no wonder so many are fearful, but at the same time, I wish we would also take the time to think out the options–and local (trolley), commuter, regional, intercity, and high-speed rail are all a part of what we are going to need, along with those electric cars and some (expensive but usable) alternative to jet fuel.
P.S.–Just saw my first Chevrolet Volt on the road the other day, a 4-door job in red paint, still had dealer plates on it. Actually a pretty little car, should sell decently if people can get the money for it and the price is right. But if enough people do buy them, we will need that alternative highway finance model quick!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:03 am
Another thought: Are the oil companies and car companies afraid of rail? They are so dominant that it doesn’t seem possible, yet could this be so? They are in a very competitive position; maybe the pressure is greater than we think?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 6:42 am
Yet these others jumped right to that conclusion of confiscating their cars, their “freedom.”
Ah yes the freedom of making car payments, insurance payments, being stuck at home when it breaks down or stuck in traffic when it’s running. Ah yes “freedom”. If I lived in Manhattan all I would need is a MetroCard to do everything I wanted to do for months at a time.
I think the deep seated fear that is revealed when they blurt out “take away our cars” is that they might have to encounter other people. . . there’s a nugget of truth in “no one goes there anymore, it’s too crowded” That can be rephrased into “No one I know, all of them just like me, goes there anymore because it’s filled with scary strangers, some of them more strange than others” …Cars give them the freedom to be antisocial.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 7:20 am
“That can be rephrased into “No one I know, all of them just like me, goes there anymore because it’s filled with scary strangers, some of them more strange than others”–Adirondacker
That strikes me as funny–every time I ride the MARC train into Washington, I either see people I know, meet interesting people, or observe people who know each other in coversation, and sometimes in card games. Others, like Joe Biden, are long-timers who know the crew members, and there are others who just read a newspaper, a book, or work on their portable computers. Doesn’t seem so scary to me.
It’s as if the anti-rail people are afraid of. . .their neighbors?
I wonder if my wife is right, that we have had too many strange chemicals in our food over the years, and the result is an epidemic of some sort of low-grade mental illness.
Certainly something was wrong with that young man in Arizona the other day. . .and if you take a look at the reader comments on the stories of this assassination attempt, it seems a lot of other people have thinking that, well, just isn’t straight. How else do you explain some who claim this is the result of “liberal” mismanagement of the country over a long period of time? I mean, a Democrat got shot, not a Republican!
(For the record, I am an independent. This gives me the wonderful luxury of throwing rocks or roses in either direction, and sometimes in the same direction at the same time!)
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 7:45 am
It’s as if the anti-rail people are afraid of. . .their neighbors?
Some of them, yes. Mild to moderate agoraphobia. The ones with extreme agoraphobia don’t leave the house.
I worked with someone who didn’t like going into Glens Falls. Far too many people around for him to cope with. He’d go to Saratoga Springs if he absolutely had to. He’s been to Albany twice in his life and it scares him. Me on the other hand will go to Saratoga Springs and make two laps of downtown just for the fun of being downtown. . .
so anyway, when florida screw up, how much money can we expect? Let’s get this thing moving people.
OK, this would have to be considered off-topic, but it’s fun and, interestingly, it can still be useful today. It’s an instructional film from the 1950s by British Rail on the subject of safely lifting heavy objects (i.e., railway parts, luggage, etc.), with a strongwoman (i.e, female bodybuilder) named Joan Rhodes doing a musical interpretation of safe lifting in the opening sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVvQ9pIo6_I
Jim SF, you’re responsible for this! It’s your fault! You’re the one who found and posted that lounge act clip a while back! :-)
jimsf Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 9:27 pm
thats freakin awesome. lol the precursor to our current “move smart” safety program.
Im going to have to pass this on to management. hehe
D. P. Lubic Reply:
January 8th, 2011 at 9:35 pm
Ho, ho, ho, glad you liked it! I wonder, is it possible your recently retired governor knew of this person back in the day? According to the comments under the video, she was born in 1920 and only passed away this past May.
Somewhat off-topic, but possibly of interest; comments by a normally pro-HSR person in Great Britain, expressing a certain amount of doubt about the HSR-2 project, and also arguing for a return of branch line and other local rail services in addition to the new HSR line.
http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/how-will-high-speed-2-help/
meanwhile some just in railnews tidbits
metro buys union station confirmed
http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/09/3310406/farmers-say-itd-be-hard-to-cope.html“>valley famers ruckus
scott meet with japanese