Sunday Open Thread
Talk amongst yourselves.
As some have noted, with the opening of the Madrid-Valencia AVE line last week, Spain now leads Europe in HSR trackage. Their first route, opened in 1992, connected Madrid to Cordoba and Sevilla. It took another 10 years for the system to get expanded, but that starter line was enormously successful, beyond the projections of Spain’s leaders.
Spain is very similar to California in several ways, including population density, landscape, and distance between its urban centers. Most intercity trips within Spain were done not by train but by airplane or by car until the AVE began expanding. Earlier this year the AVE between Madrid and Barcelona took a majority of the travel market in only its second year of operation – an air route that had been one of the world’s busiest.
Spain’s HSR system has always been one of the most similar to California’s planned system, with city-center stations and dedicated trackage. Spain’s HSR success can and will be repeated here in California, and I look forward to the day when the USA leads the globe in HSR trackage.
In what Universe?
Madrid-Valencia is $5 billion Euros for 391km (i.e. 242 miles for $6.5 billion). That is for a complete project (i.e. one that runs actual trains). For comparison, Fresno-Bakersfield is little over 100 miles.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
Well why .. outside of the Parsons Brinckerhoff ranting.. is the American standards for construction way overregulated overdesigned built?. I can’t believe that European construction workers are out there making minimum wages or Third World temporary workers are building these things. If that’s the cost they’re doing over there and that’s what we should be doing here as we certainly should follow exactly what they’re doing.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 9:01 am
PB is completely irrelevant; its European projects cost like all other companies’ European projects, and not at all like its American projects. The exceptionally low costs in Spain come mainly from two sources, according to both Madrid Metro and a separate consultant study:
1. Careful choice of contractors, for quality and good track record and not just cost. Management and oversight are tight and extremely competent, designers and builders are kept separate, and instead of lump sums the contracts specify a bill of goods so that it’s easy to allocate extra cost in case of overruns.
2. Standard designs – either off-the-shelf, or an in-house design that’s very similar to off-the-shelf. The larger the project, the more leeway an agency has with rolling stock and other technology.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Spain’s decision to build an enormous amount of HSR pretty much all at the same time did get them some major economies of scale, reflecting on Alon’s point #2. I think they opened their own factories for rails and sleepers just to supply the HSR. If California were doing things on that scale it would probably save money too.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:57 pm
It’s not just the HSR – it’s also the subway extensions. Despite the large expanse of the construction, the sums of money involved are small by the standards of big fish like New York and Paris and Tokyo.
I love steam trains.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
That’s funny, you seem like a really young guy (saw what looks like a profile of you on some other site a while back–at least I think it was you). Most younger guys aren’t “supposed” to be into that old iron. What got you in on that?
Spokker Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Uh, I think you have the wrong picture. Here’s my real photo: http://tinyurl.com/26vmtwd
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
LOL
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:38 pm
he’s referring the pic that was on the old blog. Remember when we could put avatars or pics on our profile names. I miss that.
Spokker Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:09 am
That was a picture of Huell Howser I believe.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
bad boy!!
Andre Peretti Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 5:37 am
Those who haven’t known steam era trains can’t understand. In my youth Marseille-Paris trains still had big (US-made!) steam locos. They were beautiful. Even when stopped they were alive. They breathed and sighed as if impatient to get moving.
At the time, every driver had “his” locomotive. They formed a couple and some wives even complained their husbands were in love with their machines.
By contrast, an electric locomotive looks like a long metal box on wheels. When stopped, it’s dead and silent, except for the hardly sexy ventilation noise. It’s no longer called a locomotive. It’s a “traction unit”.
Who can be in love with a traction unit?
brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:28 am
Indeed. There is still a steam train in revenue operations in England. It is well maintained and will probably last forever. It links London to Hogwarts.
Rollo Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
You may well joke – but a newly built steam train entered service in the UK last year. It’s not running scheduled trains, but it’s still a fascinating engineering conceit. There are also fairly regular tourist steam services on the scenic mainlines.
(And Hogwarts is in Scotland, by the way.)
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Oh, yes, the “Tornado”. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Peppercorn_Class_A1_60163_Tornado
It is interesting how this engine, running a winter excursion in December of 2009, “rescued” about 100 passengers whose modern trains were disabled in the bad weather due to ice on the third rail and other problems.
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/tornado-steam-locomotive/facdfffc9a7c1707a566facdfffc9a7c1707a566-303260172580?q=steam+locomotive+tornado&FROM=LKVR5>1=LKVR5&FORM=LKVR1
Victor Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:17 am
My favorite steam era loco is the C&O 2-6-6-6 Allegheny(Considered the most powerful steam loco ever made, Able to do about 7500hp), It’s too bad there are none running, There are though 2 around still, one that’s not worth restoring(#1604) cause It had been left to sit and rot outside for Years and the other? The #1601 has been stored in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn Michigan and #1601 is reputedly in excellent shape, But then this unit came to the Museum under Its own steam, But It’ll never leave there either as It’s too rare.
Victor Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:19 am
The Link above in My comments should go here.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
The magnificent Allegheny! A wonderful if somewhat flawed giant, with an axle load well in excess of 40 tons! Don’t think an H-8 would be something to use in HSR service, although the engines did pull some passenger (troop) trains in WW II. Years ago, I got to speak to an engineer, at that time a road foreman of engines, who recalled that one of these monsters, on a troop train, could accelerate the 40-car train to 60 mph on grades in excess of 1% in less than 5 miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-6-6-6
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/allegheny/
The C&O’s No. 614, which has had a video clip posted here recently, was a passenger running mate to these big coal haulers. The J-3 and J-3a engines were designed to haul a 12 car train of 80-ton cars up grades approaching 2% at 50 mph or better, and be able to start such a train from a stop on such a grade. On more level track, the same engine can handle trains in excess of 20 cars in the 80 mph range, and is supposedly capable of more than 120 mph where track would allow it.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/co.shtml
Victor, I have to ask–how did a California fellow like yourself find out about and take a liking to these engines that labored in West Virginia and Ohio on coal trains?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 9:17 am
mmmm. 7,500 HP…. the same as the ALP46a that hauls around commuters in New Jersey and occasionally Connecticut. Hmmm.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
This is amazing! I get caught up in Christmas shopping (courtesy of my wife), Christmas decorations (“Honey, the tree needs to move just a little to the . . .”), and of course an audit assignment with troubles (I have learned to appreciate boring, no-trouble assignments), and when I check back here I find other steam enthusiasts, or at least those who appreciate those mechanical beasts.
‘At the time, every driver had “his” locomotive. They formed a couple and some wives even complained their husbands were in love with their machines.”–Andre Peretti
Ho, ho, ho, ho! And this is with those pretty French girls! What does this tell us about steam?
In the WW II film, “The Train,” the character played by French actor Michel Simon, Papa Boule, is first seen in an engine shed, as he bellows his disapproval at his fireman who is preparing the locomotive for its run, something like “What the hell do you think you’re doing? This locomotive has been pulling trains since before you were born! She’s like a woman, you have to treat her right or she’ll make you miserable.”
The big US-built engines Andre mentions would have been the famous class 141-R. These “Reconstruction” engines were built to replace power destroyed and damaged during the war. At a time when French locomotive design was very heavily into efficiency at the cost of mechanical complexity, these American engines were extremely simple, but also extremely sturdy and dependable. This does not mean they were crude; most would have cast frames, well-ballanced drivers to reduce pounding, and many were shipped with roller bearings for reduced maintenance. The result was an engine that ran with minimal maintenance, could be serviced quickly, and both running and heavy repairs were comparitively quick and simple to perform. These simple, robust, well-steaming, and typically American sounding (noisy) dual-service locomotives would finish out French steam operations around 1975.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_141R
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/141-r-1199-lorient-nantes/40125a8cfc0d85ca84da40125a8cfc0d85ca84da-276068892931?q=141+r+locomotive&FORM=VIRE3
American railfans who got to visit France in the late 1960s loved these engines, too. For them, it was like placing pages back on the callender. Their only complaint was that these engines should have had a proper melodic American chime whistle instead of the squeaky “peanut” (European) whistle they had!
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:38 pm
I love electric trains of all sorts. My first love was subways, followed by streetcars (arising from visiting Boston at the age of 4, which has both…). Mainline EMUs are pretty cool too, though, and I’ve warmed to push-pulls, and even loco-hauls and freight.
I still find it hard to believe that streetcars, stylish, smooth-riding, good-sounding, powered by overhead electric lines (zero emissions at the site!), predated *indoor plumbing* in much of London. And yet they’re largely gone now, in favor of nasty polluting buses…
That smooth, nearly silent whirr of the electric engine… front windows you can look out of… acceleration as exciting as an airplane, but smoother… no smell apart from an occasional blast of ozone… what’s not to love about electric trains? :-)
When I first started researching them I was astounded at how old the electric locomotive was. They’re practically as old as steam engines — steam only won out in the 1840s because nobody had invented the electric generator yet!
I’ve become rather a fan of electricity in general, actually, amazing stuff, the best method of transporting energy over long distances. If you *have* to have a steam engine, build a cogenerating district steam plant running the combined cycle and feed the electricity to the trains. ;-) Why carry your power plant onboard?
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:22 pm
That’s true about electric traction being around for a long time. The first successful mainline operation was Baltimore & Ohio’s Howard Street Tunnel operation (a unique helper district, actually) that was started in 1893; the first successful street railway was the operation in Richmond, Va., in 1888! So many early names in the field who should be better known, too–Charles van de Poel, Leo Daft, Werner Siemens (yes, the company he founded is still around) and Frank J. Sprague. The last one could be considered a human dynamo for all he contributed to electricity, including MU control and all sorts of devices used in elevators as well as trains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_J._Sprague
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=775&bih=300&q=leo+daft&aq=f&aqi=g1g-v2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=462ef5dfdccf6e9e
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram
The electric lines I regret being too late for would be the classic interurbans, such as the West Penn (which was broad gauge, by the way), Indiana Railroad, Oregon Electric (I think a part of the Portland light rail line runs on its former right-of-way), Nothern Ohio, Pacific Electric, Sacramento Northern, the Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis (its last freight motor survives and runs in a trolley museum in California, where it went after the WB&A was abandoned), the Bamberger Railroad (Utah), Cincinnati & Lake Erie (one of its Red Devils survives in that same California museum, in its Cedar Rapids & Iowa City colors it wore after abandonment of the C&LE), and so many others—what a mistake we made letting all this go. . .(to be continued)
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Part of the appeal of those interurbans was some of the classic equipment, particularly the wooden cars from Jewett, Niles, and Brill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interurban
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niles_Car_and_Manufacturing_Company
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&biw=775&bih=279&q=interurban+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=RyoRTY7WDoGB8gbU_YzJDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQsAQwAA
Is it too soon to start picking trains?
I’m partial to the German ICEs myself. I think they are Siemens Velaros. It just looks both fast, and practical at the same time.
The JR500s from Japan Railways look futuristic. Too futuristic.
Japan has another train that looks pretty cool too; the E259. It’s not HSR though.
You can search for all those trains on Youtube.
Anybody else have any favorite HSR trains?
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
Ive already chosen the zefiro. Thats the one we are getting. Just so you know ;-)
YesonHSR Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
Well I like the AGV..thou it looks like were going to get a train that comes with a lot of financial backing and for some reason that seems to have a Chinese flavor to it.. possibly a Siemens looking train
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
oh well the AGV is my original favorite so thats good too. ( but for real check out those zefiro pics.. I mean hello, niiiice!)
MGimbel Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
The AGV would be my preferred choice, but I also like the N700.
brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:32 am
I think the Chinese equipment should be avoided, regardless if it comes with financial backing. They stole the intellectual rights from others to enable their ability to build and operate such trains… Unless they offer a licensing fee to those affected, I would tell them “no thank you”.
MGimbel Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:02 am
Did you know that the Shinkansen was also based a great deal on American technology when it was first developed? Almost everyone steals another’s technology and perfects it.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:06 am
@ MGimbel
> Did you know that the Shinkansen was also based a great deal on American technology when it was first developed?
No we don’t know that because that’s not true.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:17 am
Which is why it isn’t anything at all like the service the PRR was running between New York and Washington.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Of course the Shinkansen was based on US tech.
The worry about the Chinese designs is that large amounts are outright *copies*. There is a difference between studying someone else’s design, grasping the principles, and building your own, versus simply lifting blueprints. The worry is that the Chinese companies don’t actually understand what they’re building; this happened with the Chinese “clones” of the 737 back in the 80s, which appear to have been somewhat thoughtless copies, and suffered from fuselages which warped continuously in flight by almost a foot (I know, I rode in one).
Victor Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:24 am
I agree, The Chinese have No Legal Rights to export technology licensed only to China to a 3rd party country, So We should say No Thanks, Unless they can get US Patents for their Technology maybe and prove what they say, Otherwise forget It, They’d be just expensive knockoffs.
wu ming Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
well,we could always try to do a joint venture and then steal their stolen tech. from them. fair’s fair, it’s a long american tradition.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:42 pm
I rather like this idea. Remember, the US was built on ignoring foreign patents and copyrights. That’s why we have Hollywood, and nobody else does; all of Europe respected the French patents on moving pictures, the US ignored them.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
feel free to continue browsing of course. But let’s face it. My choice is the best. I mean just look at that!
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
its like a big bowl of candies! mmmm
James Leno Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Oh no, no, no! It looks like a dunce cap that fell over on it’s side! That’s why i didn’t like the JR500. Where’s the SOUL, man?
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
what? you’re crazy. Which one do you like? Not that ugly nosed one I hope.
James Leno Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
My all-time favorite is the Velaro
Sorry, can’t post links for some reason…
http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/en/pub/interurban_mobility/rail_solutions/highspeed_and_intercity_trains/velaro.htm
And no, i don’t like the duck-billed platypus looking trains if that’s what you mean.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
velaro is like the dullest one of all though. really. zefiro is way hotter than velaro. come on now.
James Leno Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
VELARO!
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Booooorrrriiiiiing. so over.
Alex2000 Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
This is probably a pointless discussion, but for what it is worth: you guys know that the 500 series and even the 700 series Shinkansen are old models right?
The 500 dates from the mid 90s. They aren’t even in Nozomi (limited express) service any more.
The (“duck-billed”) 700 and even the updated new N700 will be a 15+ year old design by the time
California is ready for delivery.
The newest in-service Japanese train is the E5. Not “duck-billed”, but it does have a really long nose: http://bit.ly/eozl00
But even that will be a 10 year old design by 2020. So will Jim’s Zefiro actually…..
Alon Levy Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
There are a couple of designs that will be completed soon that are already looking beyond what California needs. JR Central already has the N700-I, Rotem is working on a 400 km/h EMU, and CAF is assembling a prototype of a super-powered 320 km/h train.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
…and by 2016 or so Rotem is going to have that shiny almost new assembly plant in Red Lion PA, just sitting there waiting to assemble something. Siemens should be finished up with the ACS-64 contract too…..
jay taylor Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
The E6 is out and about, the first production E5 has hit the rails already…
Alex2000 Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
yes, I was going to mention the E6, but it is a “mini” shinkansen for JR East’s
Akita line.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
well this is worth watching just for the music. Chsra needs to step up their PR like this. a commercial like this during football season for instance or wwf.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
er this I mean
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
I’ve had some of these up before; these are ads by British companies, including the old British Rail system. I think some are pretty cool, and it’s also apparent they spent a bit of money on them.
First up, though, is one that’s a new discovery to me, with a spokesman for Southern Railway of
Britain who looks to be inspired by Jack Black’s “Nacho Libre” Mexican wrestler. Alas, it is sad to see how this “Loco Toledo’s” “Mexican rail service” looks so distressingly like the US. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuWbVw-zWQg&feature=related
“Now you’re motoring” ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gclawRWIqK8&NR=1
Sound quality from this copy of an ad is awful, but I think you’ll like it, with its BR Class 37 “police car.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7naLLeB0A
Who needs to be creative? There are so many promotional ads for rail out there that we can adapt. . .of course, if you’re good enough to be really original, that’s even better!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
More British Rail ads; first up, a promotion for the then-new Intercity 125 trains, whoich were about the fastest diesel trains ever built.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFiti6h_uPg&feature=related
Sleeper service promotion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFiIyl2MyHM&feature=related
British Rail had a package express service called Red Star; naturally those Brits had fun with a “Communist” ad. Something like this might be fun to use to annoy the Republican-conservative crowd. I mean, if they are going to call you “Communist” or “Socialist,” why not have fun with the idea?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR7chibyCMQ&NR=1
I like steam, and think it has a wonderful role to play in marketing; someone in British Rail understood that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMa02qn8Elc&NR=1
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
One last batch:
Another BR ad; we see BR pointing out the problems of driving, with which many Americans are familiar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH8XQ_K2jCg&feature=related
Not an ad, but it looks like one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl4pJwcE7JI
Another from 1970:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPIaG644jsI&feature=channel
Enjoy.
swing hanger Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:39 am
I like the BR Intercity ad with the Penguin Books character reclining…
Anyway, here is a JR East ad thanking the public for their 20 year patronage of the Tohoku shinkansen services- with the motto “Because you ride, we run”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDZXj3nO60&feature=related
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:32 am
Thanks for posting, that’s a cool ad with a catchy jingle, and the motto is great, too.
Makes me wish I understood Japanese!
Looking at it almost makes some of the British ads look a little stuffy by comparison (of course, the British ads are mostly a good deal older, too). I also can’t help but look at the ad, at its soundtrack (rythm patterns in the music), photography, and overall “feel,” and I can’t help but imagine this being here–can’t help but see how the Japanese learned lessons from us that we ourselves have forgotten, or perhaps have suppressed.
I was talking with a coworker recently, and we discussed how it seems giants walked in America and the world in the 1930s and 1940s, both evil (Hitler, Stalin) and good (Roosevelt, Churchill). One wonders if an Einstien would be able to get an audience today as he did with Roosevelt, which was part of the beginning of the Manhatten project. My coworker commented that while she thought there was as much genius around as then, if not more, it is smothered. I agree, although I am not entirely certain it is the fault of the government (her conclusion) as it is of a combination of ineffective government, combined with certain politicians (who can be local, by the way) and big business that don’t want you to know better. . .and in some of the local cases, seem to be frightened of you if you do propose something better. . .
Are we as free as we used to be? Are we as well off as we once were?
And what do you do? How do you win?
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:46 pm
I think the prevalance, and indeed worship, of short-term thinking among the “big money men”, is a major part of the problem. In previous eras the “big money men” often thought *long-term* and that led them to invest in great projects. When they’ve been brought up to think no further than three months ahead, you have problems.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
But, but, but … those first class sleeper chairs seem to be mostly designed for [b][i]sleeping[/i][/b]. The translucent cabin walls are too dang, well, translucent.
Emma Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Forget it. Not another slow elephant.
The CRH380A is the one that will run in California.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_CRH380A
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
zefiro is not a slow elephant. its top speed is 236mph its brand new. and its not some chinese knock off
Emma Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:10 am
Give me a break. In how far is the CRH380A a knock-off? There currently is no train with the same features and the same design. Do I have to drag you into the 21st century to make you realize that China is able to invent its own things now? They will work on the CRH380A and by 2016, you will have a product that is superior and cheaper than the competition.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 7:02 am
@ Emma
> In how far is the CRH380A a knock-off?
Car body from Shinkansen E2 and bogie from Velaro.
> Do I have to drag you into the 21st century to make you realize that China is able to invent its own things now?
They do? News to us.
> They will work on the CRH380A and by 2016, you will have a product that is superior and cheaper than the competition.
It takes 10 years to design, test, and verify a bullet train from scratch. If Chinese start now, they might get a bullet train ready by 2021.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:43 am
Yeah, right. It’s not even worth to reply to you, but here we go.
“Car body from Shinkansen E2 and bogie from Velaro.”
Since when can you patent aeordynamics? The form is based on computer calculations which find out which form is best for that particular speed. It has nothing to do with design. Thus it’s a given that trains will resemble each other, the higher the projected top speeds.
“They do? News to us.”
Yes, I noticed that, too…
“It takes 10 years to design, test, and verify a bullet train from scratch. If Chinese start now, they might get a bullet train ready by 2021.”
Who said anything about designing a train from the scratch? CRH380A reaches 220 mph without any issues. In comparison, European and American high speed rail still can’t get passed 200 mph operating speed.
Useless Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:27 am
@ Emma
> Since when can you patent aeordynamics?
I am talking about car body structure like truss and floor.
> Who said anything about designing a train from the scratch?
You must if you want to export legally.
> CRH380A reaches 220 mph without any issues.
You will soon learn why Kawasaki bailed out of CRH2 enhancement project and demanded a legal waiver holding them not responsible for any accident related to CRH2 and its derivatives, when they learned that Chinese were speeding E2 beyond its design limit.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:38 pm
I ask you again: Could you please provide some evidence that suggests that China violated any patent rights of Kawasaki and Siemens for the construction of CRH380A?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:54 am
What is the Zefiro, if not a European high-speed train that can get past 200 mph?
Useless Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:25 am
Chinese market Zefiro model doesn’t meet UIC crashworthiness standard and cannot be sold in the US or Europe.
UIC-compliant Zefiro V300 runs slower.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Zefiro was designed by Europeans. But if your worry is about UIC-compliance, check the top speed of the AGV and Velaro.
Nice try, though. What’s the going rate for a flak comment, anyway – fifty Won per word? One hundred?
Emma Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:29 am
And we all remember what a poor job Bombardier did on the Acela trainsets. The result was a ridiculously heavy train that takes forever to accelerate.
swing hanger Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:59 am
That was not Bombardier’s fault- it was to comply with ridiculous FRA regulations- they actually had to weigh down the locomotives with cement- earning the nickname “the pig”.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:34 am
It’s my understanding that another challenge thrown at Bombardier is that the changes in regulations for HSR equipment came after construction had actually started. Talk about a budget-breaker!
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:56 am
That wasn’t bombardiers fault. That was FRA. hello!. And Id much rather do business with our neighbors than some chinese place.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:40 pm
“And Id much rather do business with our neighbors than some chinese place.”
Now what is that here? There is no place for meaningless, irrational bias and favoritism. We don’t have $100 billion grant from the federal government. We need safe, fast, state-of-the-art technology for a low price. China is perfect.
Useless Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:10 am
@ Emma
> We need safe, fast, state-of-the-art technology for a low price. China is perfect.
Shinkansen E2 is roughly three-generations behind E6 that kawasaki is offering to California. And even E6 doesn’t meet US FRA regulations.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:59 am
@ Emma
> CRH380A is the one that will run in California.
0% possibility of CRH380A in the US. US laws don’t permit it.
MGimbel Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:07 am
How do laws not permit it? The FRA doesn’t even have regulations for trains faster than 150 mph.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:04 am
@ MGimbel
> How do laws not permit it?
1. Intellectual Property Rights Law : US IPR law does’t permit sales of a product that infringes on another’s IPR. Since CRH380A infringes on kawasaki and siemens IPR, its sale is banned.
2. Safety Regulations : FRA is expected to settle for UIC crash standard for high speed train, which disqualifies Shinkansen E2 and its offshoot CRH380A in the US.
bleh Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
2. is completely brain dead. The UIC crash standards are designed to protect HSR trains in low speed collisions on legacy tracks. If the trains only run on grade separated lines and everything on those lines has PTC there is no point to UIC standards.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
@ bleh
> The UIC crash standards are designed to protect HSR trains in low speed collisions on legacy tracks.
Almost all US HSR system requires bullet trains to run on shared legacy tracks a part of time. Lone exception is Florida. This is why Shinkansen is also ruled out in the US and Kawasaki is developing efSET in its place.
> If the trains only run on grade separated lines and everything on those lines has PTC there is no point to UIC standards.
The US can’t afford to completely separate tracks.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
In FRA-land, PTC is functionally equivalent to complete time separation.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:51 am
Could you please provide some evidence that suggests that China violated any patent rights of Kawasaki and Siemens for the construction of CRH380A? Siemens and Kawasaki were complaining about the Chinese exporting rail technology, not train technology! Why is it so hard for you to admit that the Chinese get something done that is state-of-the-art, fast and save?
You know, this is exactly what people said when Japan began to boom: “Oh, computers from the Japanese? They must be crappy, gna gna gna.” Today, Japanese technology is famous for being the top.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:49 am
Because he’s a Korean flak.
Useless Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:59 pm
@ Emma
> Could you please provide some evidence that suggests that China violated any patent rights of Kawasaki and Siemens for the construction of CRH380A?
Well, you hear a lot of bitching and teech-grinding from Kawasaki and Siemens on CRH380A laetely. The actual evidence is in the hands of Kawasaki lawyers and only the judge and CSR lawyers would be able to see them during the trial.
> Siemens and Kawasaki were complaining about the Chinese exporting rail technology, not train technology!
Kawasaki and Siemens are train set vendors, not track design vendors.
> Why is it so hard for you to admit that the Chinese get something done that is state-of-the-art, fast and save?
I do complement Chinese when I do see an original Chinese effort, like Chinese maglev program.
CRH380A on the other hand is not an original Chinese effort, or there is nothing outstanding or unique about this model. It is simply a Kawasaki E2 oversped with uppowered motors. nothing more than that.
> “Oh, computers from the Japanese?
Japanese never exported computers, except for a few vector supercomputers.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
I’m still waiting for evidence. Don’t try to talk yourself out of this. You made an assumption, now stand to it.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:53 pm
let’s not forget the coke incident.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Japan doesn’t export computers? Did Panasonic, Sony, and Toshiba disappear?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Did Panasonic, Sony, and Toshiba disappear?
No but like all the other computer … assemblers… in the world they have their PCs assembled in low wage countries like China. Very often on the same assembly lines their competitors use.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Not all of them.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Toughbook aims at a niche market. I’m sure many of the components come from many different places in the world. The CPUs come from the United States. Wander down to Best Buys and pick up a laptop, any laptop and they are made in China. Wander into your locally owned and operated PC emporium, the one where they carefully evaluate your needs wants and desires and they will assemble a PC especially for You outta parts made in China and Indonesia and Mayasia and Belize and Honduras and…
Useless Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:13 am
@ Alon Levy
Ok, I missed Panasonic Toughbook, but their numbers are insignificant.
Toshiba laptops and Sony Vaios are engineered and manufactured outside of Japan by non-Japanese people. The only thing Japanese about them is that they have Japanese brand stickers on them.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Is it too soon to start picking trains?
Yes. When California goes shopping for trains in 2016 the ones available today won’t be available anymore. It would be like walking into a car dealer today and expecting a brand new 2004 to be on the showroom floor. Or buying one of those CRT television sets at Walmart. The ones with 480i resolution.
Spokker Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
Standard definition material, of which there is still a lot of, looks better on a CRT than any plasma or LCD screen.
The high definition CRTs may not be sold anymore, but CRT technology generally has better color reproduction, black levels, fast motion and accepts a myriad of resolutions without having to concert them to some native resolution (which introduces lag if you are a video game player). Plasmas and LCDs are only catching up. My CRT may weigh 200 pounds, but it’s still the best consumer set you can buy today and it’s six years old and discontinued.
The point is that tomorrow’s technology is not always better than today’s. I don’t know what the 2016 models look like, but you don’t have to buy them. We can move people today.
Spokker Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Too add, we could scrap high speed rail altogether and focus on all-electric commuter routes in dense cities and we wouldn’t be that much worse off, even if we used yesterday’s technology. We might even be better off if $40 billion were spent on Caltrain, Metrolink, Coaster and Amtrak.
Not that I think that’ll ever happen. Those projects aren’t sexy enough.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
or we could stop traveling and stay home and watch old tv. Thats ok too.
Spokker Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
I’m fine with that. There is only a Blu-Ray only offers a marginal benefit over Blu-Ray. Unless you have a 50 inch plasma and sit four feet away from a thing, DVD is appropriate.
Spokker Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Without an edit button I sound retarded.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
I have a 52″ lcd I like it cuz it was a 2k floor model onsale for 1199, and, its big enough to watch from bed without my contacts in… oh, and its on the wall so its a space saver. Its kind of like the debate between vinyl records and cds and mp3s that is still raging today in certain circles. But what can you do. At some point you make a choice. Same goes for the trains. We’ll pick a model, we’ll use it for a while, then when the time comes, we’ll make a change. and at the same time refurbish.
There can be several types of trainsets using the system at once so long as they are compatible.
Spokker Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Well, no one really denies the shortcomings of LCDs and plasmas compared to CRTs. People simply value weight and power consumption and trendiness more than picture quality. Nothing wrong with that. I may not like it, but I defer to the masses on this one.
Andre Peretti Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
This opinion is more and more prevalent in the “Europe-Ecologie” party. They say if you want to take people out of their cars the solution is not HSR but more frequent trains and more local transit. If people can’t choose the time they depart and arrive, they’ll drive.
They have calculated (but show no data for it) that for the cost of the projected new high-speed lines all remaining level crossings could be removed, thus allowing 125mph trains on most of the French network. That would ensure fast trains for everybody instead of ultra-fast trains for a few. They consider trains faster than 125mph are energy hogs and make it impossible for France to abandon nuclear energy.
Their advice to Alstom: scrap the AGV, build more pendolinos.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Oh, Spokker’s more into nostalgia than I thought! CRT TVs (which I still watch, because I’m too cheap to spend the money on a replacement).
I think he and others may like this site.
http://www.predicta.com/index.shtml
Spokker Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:00 am
CRT isn’t about nostalgia or frugality. A good mid-range CRT provides better image quality than any LCD or plasma.
This is my TV: http://reviews.cnet.com/direct-view-tvs-crt/sony-kd-34xbr960/1707-6481_7-30787600.html
You can get one second hand. Inspect it, haul it away and then calibrate it with either a calibration DVD or shell out the cash for a professional (I never felt the need to do this). Self-calibration basically amounts to turning the goddamn contrast down. A calibration DVD can help you set black and white levels.
The biggest problem with CRTs is geometry. Though you can adjust it, it’ll probably never be perfect. Still a small con compared to all of the other benefits over plasma and LCD.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Spokker, CRTs make a high-pitched hum which is infuriating to anyone with super-sensitive hearing in the high pitches (such as I have). I got rid of every CRT in my house for that reason.
If you’re willing to stick to fixed resolution (and I am), LCDs give sharper pictures than CRTs. They five blacker blacks, and (if you’ve got a properly backlit model) they give whiter whites. The color reproduction is actually better as well. And of course there’s the perfect geometry.
The viewing-from-an-angle problem is a problem, but not if there’s only one of you watching the screen — and it seems to have been solved in my LCD television. Apart from computer content, most of what I watch has its resolution limited by the initial camera recording, not by my screen.
But you know? I generally watch videos on a small screen. Which makes all the difference. A large LCD will give just as good a result as a large CRT, but while the price for a CRT goes up approximately proportional to diagonal distance, the costs for an LCD go up as something greater than the square of the area, so more like the fourth power of distance. Large LCDs are *expensive*. So price makes for a huge issue if you want a large screen.
Emma Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:24 am
No Spokker, you are wrong on this one. LCD TV with LED backlight are now able to reach the same B-W and grey-grey contrast as the old CRTs (which is 250,000:1). Yes, LCDs with LED backlight which usually are the more expensive ones, can beat black levels and color reproduction of old-fashioned CRTs. But LCDs also provide a far sharper image without flickering.
OECD TVs even go beyond both technologies providing 1,000,000:1 contrast at 0.01 ms latency. The problem right now is the longevity of OECD panels, particularly the green and blue subpixels. Once they solved that, it’s a matter of years until it becomes the new standard. OECD already rules the smartphone market.
Spokker Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:09 am
So when are they going to fix ghosting and input lag? Viewing angle? CRTs are still the best TVs for gaming.
I do believe that the new technologies are going to catch up. That’s a given, but I’m surprised and disappointed that non-CRT technology became more popular and CRTs discontinued before they actually proved themselves.
And there’s still a ton of standard definition content and that’s reason enough to keep a CRT around. Yes, we have a Panasonic plasma, but I’ve got the JVC still set up right behind me for when I want to watch standard definition content or play old games, from original Nintendo to Xbox. The blu-ray player does a decent job of upconverting, but noisy DVDs (older films) look washed out on the plasma. The CRT looks great.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:46 am
They already fixed it. The question is, would people be ready to pay the higher price? No. That’s why they won’t fix those problems until they found a way to improve TVs for less.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:03 pm
There is no ghosting or input lag on my LCD computer monitor, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Perhaps you don’t have the right data format for your gaming machine – LCD screen connection?
Viewing angle is an issue.
jimsf Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Maybe we can just modify one of these!
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:52 pm
I agree that it is too soon to start picking trains. The lead time on a train order (if you’re buying nearly-off-the-shelf, rather than full-custom) is about 3 years. Nobody expects the system to be up and running to the point where it will actually need the full-scale high-speed trains in three years, and indeed the products available will get better over time, so there’s no point in ordering early.
On the other hand, if we want an “interim” solution to allow San Joaquins to continue onto HSR tracks, we might start looking into buying a few lightweight electric locomotives right now. (Change engines at Fresno…)
Spain is very similar to California in several ways, including population density, landscape, and distance between its urban centers.
now if we could just implement that “daily afternoon nap/party all night” thing we’d really be cookin’ with gas.
wu ming Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
that’s been my dream for california, that we learn to live like a mediterranean society.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
I’ve always believed we should adopt the siesta as part of our daily routine.
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Can we get siesta onto the next ballor?
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
ballot
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
From what I’ve read, I think my option would be to follow the French example–a 4-day workweek. That would give us a regular three-day weekend!
After all, what are we working for? Just to work? Or is it, or should it be, to spend time with what we want to do, or with our families?
I can personally tell you that a current practice in my agency–that the auditor should always be in the office on Friday or the other last working day of the week (i.e., the day before Thanksgiving) to set appointments for the following week–is something of a hassle. The reason is that the business owners I am trying to contact to set appointments are often not in! I guess they are using that 4-day working week and 3-day weekend to get in more golf.
It doesn’t help matters that much of our work today is or seems, well, not worth doing. Actually, a lot is, but it would help, at least in my opinion, to know that whatever we do would not be in vain. I don’t mind my actual work that much, but it would be so nice to not have to worry that the leadership of the country doesn’t really worry about the country, in other words, that they cared about the place and were willing to take decent care of it. So much in the way of business activity today seems to be a money-mining operation.
It wasn’t always so. In Hagerstown, Md., there is a factory, still in service, making shot blast machinery (sand blasting is one variation of this), with the name of the company spelled out in tile on the smokestack. That name will be there as long as that brick chimney is there. The business owners who built that factory took pride in their name, which also means they took pride in their products. They were willing to put their name on the line and out where everyone could see it. Today, business owners would look for the cheapest metal building they could find, and make sure the sign was detachable, and thus changealbe for the time they would get to cash out.
Speaking of urban centers:
A common argument against high speed rail in California goes something like this—In Europe and Japan cities are far more centralized than they are in sprawling California: And—the only high speed rail routes to recover their capital costs are Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyon.
From Wikipedia (List of Urban Areas by Population), I noticed this:
Los Angeles ranks #14 with 14.8 million people. The Los Angeles urban area includes 2240 square miles with a population density of 6,500 per square mile. Of the 197 world urban areas listed in this table, Los Angeles has the highest population density per square mile of any of the 19 United States cities.
San Francisco-San Jose ranks #50 with 5.55 million. The San Francisco-San Jose urban area includes 960 square mikes with a population density of 5700 per square mile. San Francisco-San Jose has the second highest population density per square mile of any of the United States cities listed.
Paris ranks #24 on the list with a population of 10.2 million. The Paris urban area includes 1170 square miles with a population density of 8800 per square mile.
The Lyon urban area has a population of less that 2 million and is not listed.
Twenty years from now Los Angeles and San Francisco-San Jose will most likely grow by at least 15%. By 2030 when CAHSR has been operating for a few years the Los Angeles urban area could be expected to contain at least 17 million people with a population density well over 6500 per square mile and San Francisco-San Jose would have 6.4 million with a population density of well over 5700 per square mile.
So when high speed rail comes to California what we will have will be a system connecting the
2nd most populous (most densely packed) urban area in the United States with the 5th most populous (2nd most densely packed) urban area in the United States. This combined population will be 2 times Paris- Lyon, and although the population density is somewhat less than for the Paris urban area it is much closer than critics would like us to believe.
I realize that the success of CAHSR depends on factors in addition to population, but the argument that California is too spread out or has too much sprawl for HSR to be viable is not a very good one. To me the population figures by themselves are compelling and give a very good idea of just how successful high speed rail would be in California.
Johnathan Reply:
December 19th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
HSR is not a subway line.
I don’t think density near stations matter, because most Californians will drive to a nearby HSR station to ride.
And if they don’t drive, they’ll have a friend drop them off in front of the station or nearby metro station.
What Angelenos already do when they need to get in/out of LAX.
Once off HSR, that is where the problem lies.
Our public transporation systems by 2020 can be a viable option of getting to destinations or that cars get stuck in freeway traffic hell.
I’d wish for the former option.
wu ming Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:33 am
with the new trunk line of HSR being known a decade in advance, there will be plenty of time to plan for expanded transit centered on the HSR stations. it brings a focus to planning, when you have a guaranteed point of passengers who need transit in a downtown station.
Matthew Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:49 am
Downtown LA, SF and San Jose stations will already be well connected to local rail systems. The Burbank and Norwalk/Santa Fe Springs stations (assuming that’s where they end up being located) have longer term plans to be connected to the LA metro system, but we will need to push to make sure this happens once the station locations are solidified. Peninsula stations will be fed by Caltrain. Bus service is much easier to alter to coalesce around a major transit hub like a high speed rail station. There are already ongoing bus investments at LAUS and SF Trans Bay that will be online when the rail network opens. The other largest population areas in phase 1 are Anaheim, Bakersfield, and Fresno. There will need to be a push for increased bus transit in these cities serving the train stations.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:53 am
Plus King / Tulare needs its tram-train up and running.
;)
James Fujita Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
It’s sort of like the situation with the proposed downtown Los Angeles NFL stadium. In Los Angeles, the question is: Will a team actually move or not?
In Kings County, the question is: Will they actually receive a station or not? Give Visalia/ Tulare/ Hanford/ Lemoore the right incentive and I think they would move forward on a DMU line (“Sprinter” style) at the very least.
It’s a chicken-and-egg question, because I know some HSR fans won’t support a station in the area unless there’s better transit there already. But that’s the situation, such as it currently exists.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 8:02 am
They are getting their station, the funding doesn’t support getting as far as a Bakersfield station and by the time they have that funding pulled together, construction will have started on Segment 1.
StevieB Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:39 am
The San Fernanado station will not be in Burbank but somewere farther north and the current plan is for a 10,000 car parking garage.
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:58 am
fresno has light rail plans I think.
James Fujita Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
They have been talking about light rail, or a streetcar or BRT. One could certainly make a strong argument for a light rail line from downtown Fresno to Clovis, with Fresno State as a major hub. Of course, these things take time, as Los Angeles 1960s-1980s can attest.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:06 pm
While local rail connections from HSR are certainly important, LA seems to be building its at a great rate, and San Francisco already has quite a bit. We’ll see about the intermediate cities, but obviously there isn’t much local rail at the intermediate cities between Paris and Lyon and the route does OK.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 am
The arguments really hinge on assuming that population of, say, California is smoothly distributed across California, or population of the United States is smoothly distributed across the United States.
In terms of origin station, if a place is so completely sprawlerific that you can “just drive anywhere”, that means you can just drive to the HSR station, and once there you can get a break from the constant self-chauffeuring. If a place is sufficiently densely settled so that there is headaches with traffic congestion, then the HSR provides an anchor for developing a local dedicated transport corridor.
And for destination stations, California already has sufficient, and will only get more over the next 10 years as the waves of oil price shocks pass through.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 9:27 am
You really need to stop reading Wendell Cox. Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyon are the only lines that were funded out of a separate pile of money from the rest of the operating costs, so if you try to define things very narrowly, then yes, they’re the only lines that recovered their capital costs. But if instead you define things like a normal person and merely require that a line make a profit after depreciation, then nearly every HSR line in the world is profitable. (Including interest knocks off a lot more lines, but still leaves in multiple Shinkansen lines and LGVs.)
As for the “densely packed” argument, the average density of an arbitrarily defined urban area is completely irrelevant to any transit ridership model. What’s more important is how many people live and work within some radius of the stations. To a first order approximation, you can use perceived density, on which metric SF is the second densest urban area in the US and LA is the third, and neither is even remotely close to Paris.
Michael Mahoney Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
So, doesn’t it follow that the railroad should go straight from the Bay Area to LA down the west side of the Valley, without any stations in Valley cities? Save a ton of money.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Not net. You’re forgetting that this is not going to be a subsidized operation, but rather a surplus generating operation, and turning your back on those transport markets will cost heavily.
MGimbel Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:07 am
A Central Valley bypass alignment (I-5) could always be added later to cut travel time after phase 2 is completed.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm
The time savings of going on I-5 versus serving Bakersfield and Fresno are measured in the very low minutes. If you want to save time and money, spend it on more useful things, like better trains, high-throughput station throats, and no multi-kilometer aerials where they’re not needed.
While we are waiting for the Authority meeting today, I have a question for anyone on the board. Unless I’m mistaken, the 2010 budget had $4 billion (maybe thats $2.5 billion) for HSR, and the most recent continuing resolution, which didn’t pass, cut that down to $1 billion for FY2011. So if the government keeps running via continuing resolution, the most recent that I heard was they we going to try and fund through March, what level of HSR funding is provided in that? Is the $4 billion per year funding level chopped into $11,000,000 per day that accumulates until such time that they pass a resolution that changes the 2011 funding level to something less than $4 billion, or is HSR spending somehow “stopped” until such time that they either lower it to something less or keep it at the $4 billion level?
RT
BruceMcF Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:35 am
The House continuing resolution for the balance of the Fiscal year allocated $1b to HSR.
Alan F Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
The FY11 Transportation funding bill passed by the House before the election had only $1.4 billion for HSIPR. It was cut in the Appropriations subcommittee from $2.5 billion to provide more funds for highways (around $45 billion). The recent Omnibus bill passed by the House to try to get FY11 fully funded (now 2-1/2 months into the fiscal year) allocated $1 billion for HSIPR. But the Senate is unable to pass an Omnibus bill, so it will be continuing resolutions funded at FY10 levels until February or March. Which hurts Amtrak because the FY11 omnibus bill in the Senate had around $1.9 billion total for Amtrak, over $300 million more than the FY10 amount, most (maybe all) of which is Capital grants for equipment and track maintenance & projects, fleet acquisition, which Amtrak needs. Get FY11 passed would have protected Amtrak’s funding for a year, but now the House Republicans will have the opportunity to slash Amtrak federal support for three FYs.
But, I don’t think the CR will work the way you think for the HSIPR funds. The FRA won’t really be able to ask for applications because they don’t know how much, if any, funds will be available. The Republican controlled House may delete the FY11 HSIPR funds in the spring when/if they get a FY11 authorization bill passed – 1/2 way through the fiscal year in question no less. If the FY11 funding bills had been passed by both houses and signed by the President, it would be difficult for the House Republicans to rescind the funding. But there will be no such protection for the FY11 funds, except for the narrowly controlled Democratic Senate, provided there is no last minute change of course by Reid and the current Senate.
RubberToe Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:59 am
Thanks Alan, great explanation. I guess we will have to see what the new (through March) resolution has in it.
RT
RubberToe Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:18 pm
The bill passed by the Senate yesterday (Monday) and being considered by th ehouse today still has the FY2011 HSR funding set at $1 billion.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 7:59 am
Or, IOW, $500m, if the Republican House zeros it out in appropriations, $1b if the House and Senate can’t agree on FY2011 and the continuing resolution is extended to the end of the fiscal year.
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2010/12/20/chinese-train-drivers-manual-in-english/
Well, China’s “home grown” bullet trains come with a manual written in English, no Chinese language version. The poor Chinese driver had to translate the manual himself.
Still not convinced that Chinese bullet trains are rip-offs of foreign bullet trains?
bleh Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
They say that it was before the Olympics. No one doubts that the CRH2 and CRH3 sets aren’t Chinese (I don’t know, there might be some fanatics on Chinese boards but I’ve never met one), the argument is about the CRH380 series, especially the CRH380A.
The answer isn’t that clear cut, the body is definitely based on the E2 but it’s just as obvious that there’s been heavy development work done by the Chinese. The profile’s different, it got a new nose, they worked on stability, cleaned up the roof and the underbody and the gaps between the cars. It’s of course difficult to learn anything about the bogies, if they’re straight copies from the Velaro or if they changed stuff.
Overall it’s definitely a new train and you can’t argue that the Chinese don’t know what they’re doing. But it’s also clear that there’s so much foreign IP in that thing that unless they managed some legal trickery it’s gonna be impossible to export.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
@ bleh
> No one doubts that the CRH2 and CRH3 sets aren’t Chinese (I don’t know, there might be some fanatics on Chinese boards but I’ve never met one)
I met plenty.
> The answer isn’t that clear cut, the body is definitely based on the E2
Then it infringes on Kawasaki’s IPR.
> but it’s just as obvious that there’s been heavy development work done by the Chinese.
It still infringes on Kawasaki IPR. The only way to not infringe on Kawasaki IPR is to start over from scratch.
> But it’s also clear that there’s so much foreign IP in that thing that unless they managed some legal trickery it’s gonna be impossible to export.
That’s the conclusion that matters; CRH380A cannot be legally exported out of China. Of course Chinese will be able to get away with it in 3rd world countries who don’t care about IPR stuff and badly need Chinese money. But not in the US.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
The US does not and has never given a crap about property belonging to anyone but itself. Whether Kawasaki wins a lawsuit against CR depends entirely on whose country can bribe more American politicians and pretend-experts to get the desired result.
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
@ Alon Levy
> Whether Kawasaki wins a lawsuit against CR depends entirely on whose country can bribe more American politicians
US politicians, even the president of United States, exert no influnence over the outcome of a trial. That’s what keeps the US justice system in order.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:51 am
I have a bridge to sell for real cheap, if you’re interested.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:10 pm
You really are naive, aren’t you, Useless? You probably think the 2000 election was decided nonpolitically too.
The US federal “justice” system is a hotbed of political influence-peddling, particularly at the higher levels.
thatbruce Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
That’s the conclusion that matters; CRH380A cannot be legally exported out of China.
That of course is your opinion, as is pretty much anything said by anyone on this blog.
Just to keep track, the models that you feel are out of the running and reason for such are:
*) Shinkansen (in general): Insufficient crashworthiness rating (100t vs 200t UIC) for operation in mixed traffic situations with FRA-conforming vehicles.
*) Chinese (specifically the CRH380A): IPR violations in the development and construction thereof.
Did I miss any?
Useless Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
@ thatbruce
> Did I miss any?
You missed safety issues of CRH380A. Being based on Shinkansen E2, CRH380A also fails FRA crash test.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:53 am
There are zero FRA-conforming vehicles in Europe for those UIC trains to crash with. It’s China that buys some FRA-compliant locomotives from GE for its long-distance unelectrified lines.
Useless Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:30 am
@ Alon Levy
> There are zero FRA-conforming vehicles in Europe for those UIC trains to crash with.
There are two possibilities.
1. TGV POS and KTX-II are eligible for a special waiver from FRA because their passenger trains cars are protected by locomotives rated for 500 ton compressive load. Talgo’s passenger cars used in certain Amtrak trains obtained this waiver.
2. The longer-term solution is FRA adopting UIC profile, which will include almost all high speed train vendors except for Japanese and Chinese.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:11 pm
The actual possibility hinted by Amtrak and the FRA is that the entire buff strength approach will be scrapped on PTC-equipped lines.
But by all means, keep FUDding about how nothing except Korean technology that’s about to become obsolete even in Korea is usable.
Useless Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:18 am
@ Alon Levy
> The actual possibility hinted by Amtrak and the FRA is that the entire buff strength approach will be scrapped on PTC-equipped lines.
Caltrain line suggests otherwise. PTC-required for running UIC-compliant trains on Caltrain corridor.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 7:01 am
Caltrain didn’t get a waiver for a generic UIC-compliant train. It got a waiver built around specific products made by Alstom, Bombardier, and Siemens. It shuts out smaller UIC-compliant manufacturers, such as CAF and Stadler, as much as it shuts out Japanese ones.
The rationale for seeking the waiver was that Caltrain wants bilevel EMUs, and those don’t exist in FRA-compliant form. The Japanese market for bilevel EMUs is tiny, and the entire operation was in collusion with the top manufacturers anyway, hence Caltrain asked for UIC. The UIC requirement didn’t come from the FRA, which does not really distinguish between 100 and 200 tons and is equally prejudiced against Europe and Japan.
Useless Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 7:28 am
@ Alon Levy
If you enforce 500 ton standard for loco, following vendors qualify
- Alstom TGV
- Rotem KTX-II
If you enforce 200 ton standard, following vendors qualify
- Alstom TGV/AGV
- Rotem KTX-II/HEMU-400
- Siemens Velaro
- Talgo 350
- Bombardier Zefiro V300
- Kawasaki efSET <= When it becomes available in 2017
There are enough vendors at 200 ton standard to ensure competition.
What Japanese and Chinese bring into the equation is not superior technology, but superior financing terms.
Useless Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 7:35 am
@ Useless
Another thing to note. Japanese too are voluntarily strengthening the car body of their new commuter trains after the Amagasaki disaster. They too realize that 100 ton load is not enough; so more car body strength is always better, and I see 200 ton load as a good compromise, although TGV/KTX-II level 500 ton load is preferable, largely because they are already available and doesn’t cost extra.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:32 pm
First, what you see and what the FRA sees aren’t the same. The FRA is adamant about not compromising its safety standards. Fortunately, its behavior in the 1990s suggests those standards are flexible on PTC-equipped lines.
Second, the Amagasaki disaster happened on a line that didn’t have ATS (and despite said disaster, Japan has fewer deaths per passenger-km than Western Europe). This isn’t going to be a problem on lines that are ATS- or ATC-equipped; the Shinkansen trains are still as light as ever.
Third, TGV/KTX-II are obsolete. Rotem is developing the KTX-III, Alstom has the AGV, and everyone else is marching on.
And fourth, if you really think “more car body strength is always better,” I have some Acela locomotives to sell you for real cheap.
Useless Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 6:40 am
@ Alon Levy
> First, what you see and what the FRA sees aren’t the same. The FRA is adamant about not compromising its safety standards.
Which would help TGV and KTX-II’s chances since their locomotives are so much stronger than EMUs.
> Second, the Amagasaki disaster happened on a line that didn’t have ATS (and despite said disaster, Japan has fewer deaths per passenger-km than Western Europe). This isn’t going to be a problem on lines that are ATS- or ATC-equipped;
Amagasaki disaster taught Japanese train manufacturers that PTC wasn’t everything and body strength was also important. This is why Japanese train manufacturers are voluntarily increasing body strength.
> Third, TGV/KTX-II are obsolete. Rotem is developing the KTX-III, Alstom has the AGV, and everyone else is marching on.
TGV and KTX-II are particularly useful in heavily mixed-traffic environments like US HSR corridors, because of their superior crash performance relative to EMUs.
All all new completely segregated HSR tracks, EMUs are better and AGV and HEMU-400X would be offered. For mixed-traffic HSR systems like California HSR system, TGV and KTX-II are better suited.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 10:36 am
Amagasaki didn’t have PTC! ATS is just the Japanese technology for it.
The FRA hasn’t said “500 is fine, but anything else isn’t.” It said “We will not compromise our safety standards.” If it’s not 900, it’s not good enough for the current PTC-less lines. The FRA has so far brushed off the safety record of France and Korea (not to mention Japan). The country whose rail system matches US heavy freight the most is China, but Americans (and other first-worlders) are trained to look down on China even more than on Europe and Japan.