Some Thoughts About Amtrak and HSR
I’m on board the Coast Starlight Train #11, heading back to Monterey (via Salinas, of course) from over a week in the Pacific Northwest. As much as I love high speed rail, it stems from a deeper belief that trains are going to play a central role in American passenger transportation in the 21st century, as they did for about 100 years until a temporary decline in the 1960s. And besides, it’s a much nicer way to travel – don’t have to get fondled by the TSA, and don’t have to waste time sitting behind the wheel of a car, while being able to enjoy the comforts of the train.
Lots of people criticize Amtrak for being subsidized, although you wouldn’t know it from the cost of a sleeper room on the trip from Seattle to Salinas. What they forget is that every form of transportation in the US is subsidized in one form or another.
That includes the airline industry, which would not have existed in this country (or any other) without subsidies. Passenger air service was very heavily subsidized by the federal government for much of the 20th century, initially through the use of federal contracts for carrying mail which enabled passenger service to be sustained despite initial operating losses. Similarly, defense contracts for airplane builders such as Boeing helped sustain its operations and its passenger aircraft development, from its earliest days during World War I to the height of the Cold War.
Such subsidies have continued, including a bailout of the airline industry in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack. Of course, it is a well-known fact that roads and freeways in the US are massively subsidized, especially new infrastructure – in the last 25 years, most major freeway projects in California have been paid for by sales tax dollars, such as the reconstruction and widening of Interstate 5 in Orange County.
There’s nothing wrong at all with subsidizing a form of transportation. Of course, HSR operates around the world without subsidies, although the initial construction cost is usually subsidized by government. The language in AB 3034 requiring California HSR to operate without subsidy is absurd and quite limiting, a product of a short period of American history where subsidies to passenger rail service suddenly got a bad name (itself an outcome of the temporary, but high-profile, problems encountered by passenger rail providers in the 1960s and early 1970s).
Instead of freaking out about subsidies, our society needs to decide what we believe is worth paying for. The answer to that question necessarily goes beyond “something that pays for itself.” That attitude has led to a steady decline in this country’s infrastructure and our ability to withstand the oil and environmental crises of the 21st century.
No matter how we pay for passenger rail operations, our train service needs to be preserved and significantly expanded if this country is going to have a chance at maintaining prosperity in the 21st century.
And speaking of Amtrak, today’s Boston Globe has an article on the success of the Acela:
Amtrak now transports 55 percent of passengers in the Boston-New York air-rail market, up from 16 percent in the mid-1990s, according to the New England Transportation Institute, a nonprofit research organization in Vermont. Acela’s ridership has risen nearly 30 percent, from 2.5 million passengers in its first full year of service to 3.2 million passengers in fiscal 2010, which ended in September. Air travel, on the other hand, has declined.
Last year, nearly 30 percent fewer people flew between Logan and the three New York-area airports than in 1999, the year before Amtrak introduced Acela, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics. Air passenger numbers decreased 35 percent between Boston and Philadelphia and 8 percent between Boston and Washington in the same period.
Notably, the Acela is one of the only Amtrak routes that does not require an operating subsidy. But it also shows how people desperately want fast, reliable train service. We keep hearing from California HSR critics and deniers that people won’t ride our trains, that the ridership numbers “don’t pass the smell test,” that the trains can’t possibly cover their operating costs, that people will prefer to fly and drive.
The Acela blows these arguments out of the water. It is not even true high-speed rail service, but it is very popular, pays for its operations, and has grabbed the majority of trips on the Northeast Corridor. Some might point to Acela’s fairly high prices – between $200 and $300 – but those are on par with or cheaper than flights between Boston and New York, according to the Boston Globe article. California’s HSR system will provide much faster and more frequent service, enabling our system to meet or exceed what the Acela has achieved.
In short, no matter how it is paid for, passenger rail is alive and well in America. It deserves our ongoing support if we are to afford to move people and build prosperity for the 21st century.
Acela isn’t even that fast. Boston-South Station to New York Penn aboard the Acela takes three hours, thirty minutes, an average speed of only 65 miles per hour. By contrast, Los Angeles to San Francisco in 2 hours, 38 minutes is an average speed of 164 miles per hour. Or, take a similar length trip, Fresno to Los Angeles, 255 miles as compared to 228.7 for Boston to New York. 1 hour and 24 minutes, nearly three times the speed at 182 miles per hour. If Acela can get that marketshare at such a low average speed, then it stands to reason that the California high speed rail system will blow things out of the water.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
If Acela was built as a true high-speed rail there wouldn’t be any airline market left outside of some small regional jets for international connections that Kennedy. The California high-speed rail system truly will change the states travel patterns… it’ll be interesting to see in the next several months knowing that Republicans will plan but also what will happen when the price of oil goes close to $100 a barrel since it’s already basically 90 bucks today and were still in recession.
O/T, sorry, but really cool video that I figured some might enjoy. Ever see a train lay it’s own track? Now you have.
Eric M Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:24 am
For got to leave a brief decription:
The road bed was raised 13 inches to accommodate for the new high speed rail line between St. Louis, MO. And Chicago, IL. There are only two of these track laying machines in the world, one here and one in Europe.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
That was crazy. I love the part where they ride in the chair and put the hook things on.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Those are Pandrol clips, invented in Great Britain in the 1930s, and first used on the L.M.S. (London, Midland & Scottish Railway), and are used in place of spikes or screws, which were the traditional rail fastenings in American and Europe respectively. Of course, those traditional fastenings don’t work too well with concrete ties.
Also of note is the ballast cleaning machine, starting at 3:00, and the ballast tamper at 4:00. Interestingly, the first of these machines had an American counterpart back in the prewar era on the Pennsylvania Railroad, and there is movie footage of a hand-held variant of those ballast tampers (using what would otherwise be a pneumatic jackhammer) on the Southern Pacific in the 1940s. That tamping would have been done with several men jumping on special ballast pitchforks in earlier times.
Individual units, such as the ballast tamper and the cleaner, are not too unusual in America, although a complete rail-laying and tie-laying outfit like what you saw is. Such a unit like that is very likely owned by a specialty contractor.
The footage you did have is European, judging from the link and buffer couplers seen throughout the clip, along with the ballast cars and yellow and green diesel seen at the end; the locomotive suggests it could be in Holland. Can anyone correct or confirm?
Loren Petrich Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
I couldn’t find any direct statements, but there’s lots of less-direct evidence:
Use of metric-system units in several places, and lack of English-system units.
These words:
Remorqué – “towed” (French)
Gesleept – “towed” (Dutch)
Frein – “brake” (French)
Clem Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Unequivocally Belgium.
thatbruce Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:33 am
One of the locos seen in the footage on other duties in Belgium.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Whoa… I just spent 2 hours on that website.
The sleepers aren’t subsidized. Only coach. My understanding being that congress doesn’t want to subsidize peoples first class travel but is ok with subsidizing the coach/public transportation portion. Thats why there was the big push a few years back to force the food service portion to be profitable as well. The republicans feel ok with subsiding the coach seat only. Of course the real reason is that by forcing the jacking up of prices on sleepers and food, or worse, forcing the deterioration or elimination of food service, you undermining the rail service as a whole. Which is the real goal. Those slimy mothers no no bounds when it comes to sleaze.
And thats why instead of a chef and full kitchen and dining staff preparing freshly roasted chicken, you now have two crew members heating up frozen tv dinners in a microwave and tossing some parsley on top to make it look nice. YOu know who to thank for that.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:55 am
YOu know who to thank for that.
Yes, people who used to know their place getting all uppity and getting paid better.
ant6n Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
On the other hand, Amtrak could easily provide profitable food service that’s not garbage. But I guess if nobody makes money with the service (except the freight train people who own the infrastructure), there’s no incentive to improve it.
ant6n Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I mean they could provide food profitably
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
how could they while keeping affordable for folks in the central valley for instance.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:05 am
No, they can’t really. Dining car service is painfully expensive to provide, just like fresh-cooked food on airplanes. They already charge what some have termed “carnival” or “fair” prices, somewhat high, but which the market will tolerate; they can’t raising prices more. They also can’t increase quality without increasing costs; the diners are run quite efficiently.
The fact is they “cost” only a little bit of money, not a significant amount, and should be considered part of the overhead for any train trip which is sufficiently long. Want to save money on food service? *Speed the trains up* so that people don’t feel the need for food service en route and will eat at either end.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
It may be worth noting that dining car service never did make money, even in the old days. It was still considered an essential service, however, simply because to not provide it meant nobody would ride at all.
Dining cars, lounges, observation cars, and the space in a dome were all traditonally considered “non-revenue” space, in that you did not sell tickets specifically for them. These amenities were part of what made train travel worthwhile; they helped you sell tickets in the revenue space, which was your coaches and sleepers.
In the case of a dining car, your expenses would include the cost of buying and maintaing the car, which included all its special cooking equipment. This made diners both expensive and heavy (very often they were the heaviest car in a train). The weight distribution of a diner could introduce suspension problems that were resolved with different spring capacities in the trucks; the restaurant end would have springs on both sides of the car that were similar to a standard coach, but the kitchen end very often would have an intermediate loading capacity for the springs on the aisle or corridor side, and a heavy spring capacity on the kitchen side. That’s three different spring capacities in four locations.
Traditional staffing was very heavy by modern standards. You had a chef, two helpers or pantrymen (one of whom typically washed the dishes), a steward, and up to 12 waiters, all for a rolling restaurant that typically seated on 36 people in a 4-and-2 table configuration (some seated 48 in a 4-and-4 setup, but this was unusual).
Again, the diner wasn’t expected to be a profit center, even back in 1916. But it was an important tool to win patronage, and in those days the food and service on them was very often an important selling point.
Depending on the train, food service would would not always be provided by such a full diner. There were also a lot of “buffet” cars, usually with only one or two people to run them, and very often this buffet section would be part of a car that had other accomodations in it, such as sleeping compartments or sections, or a coach section. The Baltimore & Ohio used such an arrangement to provide food service on its Speedliner RDC train between Washington and Pittsburgh in the 1950s, and one of those modified RDCs still exists in the B&O Museum in Baltimore. Others are still around, too.
For a long-distance train (which in this case means anything with a trip length over three hours or so, and even in that length if meal times happen to fall in the middle of the trip), food service of some sort should be considered as essential as toilets and air conditioning. That’s what those “olde-tyme” railroaders thought. Otherwise, can you imagine a train stopping at a McDonalds or a Burger King for lunch?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Best industry practice here for low costs is achieved on the Shinkansen, where they don’t have a special food car at all – they have people going down aisles with carts selling food. I’ve seen the same in Israel, and it’s no big deal to either get food there (or at the stations, where it’s most appropriate) or get around the food carts.
Second best is common on both Amtrak’s corridor services and European HSR lines, where they have a cafe car with one person selling food over the counter, with some seats. This cuts staffing costs and doesn’t require a heavy kitchen, but still involves a large net reduction in seating capacity. If such a reduction is possible, then it’s best to cancel the cafe car and instead reduce seat density. If the seat density of coach is the same as that of domestic first class air travel, then it can become a major selling point in drawing people away from airlines.
Obviously, this starts to fail on very long-distance trains. I wouldn’t put the cutoff at three hours, though: on a five-hour train, such as the Tokyo-Fukuoka expresses, very few people would ride end to end because it’s not time-competitive with air, so a large majority of riders would only be on the train for three hours or less.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
I won’t say that’s a bad idea, but I hate to think how too many Americans would leave the interior of a coach, with food wrappers, disposable cups, and napkins on the floor–ugh!
How would you handle that?
J. Wong Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
They have someone who comes through the train while it is running collecting garbage and cleaning the restrooms. At least, that’s how the Italian and Japanese HSR’s operated.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Americans want food. period. What you people have against eating on trains is beyond me. I used to work behind that snack/bar counter, up to 20 hours in a day, and I can tell you that when americans board the train the first thing they do is run to that lounge, they also (somewhat annoyingly) do it multiple times during the 5 hours between emeryville and bakersfield and even the 2 hours between sasacremanto and bakersfiled. And god forbid you run out of an item. You’ll have a near riot. Its no joke. They eat the hell out of that stuff. And drink too. You should see the jack daniels and bud selling at 10 in the morning… and that’s the women… for real. Its amazing.
thatbruce Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:36 am
A number of liquor stores will deliver to arbitary station platforms.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
@ D. P.: I’m not sure. Presumably they’ve found a way in Japan – maybe hiring more cleaners.
@ Jim: I have no trouble with people eating on trains. What I’m advocating is that this be done without having a dedicated car for it. Stations should have plenty of food options, both for eating at the station and for taking it to go on the train, and there should be snacks available on the train.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
But whats wrong with having a dedicated car for it? Its not like there’s a space shortage or anything. The tgvs have dedicated cars for it.
bleh Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:36 am
I’d take the Shinkansen’s increased legroom instead of a dining car anytime.
We’re talking about an additional 5 inches (N700 vs. TGV-POS) you really start to notice after a while. No wonder the French need an excuse to pace through the train instead of enjoying the view.
And I don’t see the problem with keeping cars full of oh so infantile Americans clean. They seem to do just fine on airplanes.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:17 am
you can have legroom and a cafe. There’s call kinds of space. Itll be years before hsr reaches capacity. Not only that, but there will probably wind up being, over the years, more than one type of trainset. as new models come out, and old one are “reburbished” They could wind up one day running, trains with no cafe car, on peak hour, business only, full express, while running a midday or weekend excursion with a kid car and cafe making all local or limited stops to shuttle vacationers around the state. Nothing is set in stone and a creative operator can do any number of things any number of ways based on whatever the public wants. The only that counts is what the riding the public wants. They are reason we are building this to begin with. Lets not forget that. High speed rail is not about technology. Its about people. You and me and our friends and neighbors and the global visitors we host for tourism.
For decades people still ask, “when is bart going to put in a bar/lounge car” and those are trips in the 30-45 minute range. A new yorker would never expect nyc to put a bar on the A train. But
‘a californian would ask for one on bart,- and it would be the first thing they’d ask for.
thatbruce Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:45 am
Eating/drinking on short-distance services (such as BART) isn’t really a good way to see the city. SF could get something similar to the Helsinki Pub Tram, or the Melbourne tram restaurant.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Well, Metro-North has a bar car. Most of the time (at least off-peak) it’s empty and unstaffed and the bar just sits there wasting space.
The point about HSR and capacity is that with the frequencies they’re predicting, there’s no reason to run trains less than full. If they can’t fill more than 3 tph the first five years, they shouldn’t buy more trains than necessary to run 3 tph until after five years. California has better things to do with its money than pay excessive lump sums to Siemens. The effect of frequency at this level is trivial.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
If moving the maximum amount of human meat in the minimum number of train sets was the objective, they wouldn’t have first class, either.
There is a difference between their core market and the competitive belt of their market. Getting more of the competitive belt onto the train faster pays to buy more trains.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
First class pays more, more than offsetting the reduced seat density. Cafe cars don’t.
Joey Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
There’s call kinds of space
No matter how you frame it, extra space costs extra money. If you’re adding an extra car to each train, that’s another 48-68 tonnes you have to haul down the line (electricity costs), and another traincar you have to maintain. If the sale of food makes enough money to support itself, or if it causes a high enough increase in ridership to do the same, then it might be worth it, but until you are able to make that determination, stop acting like it won’t cost anything. And remember, every extra dollar that goes into operating costs is a dollar that is not going into Phase 2 expansions (or paying off debt), meaning that Sacramento and San Diego will have to wait even longer to be connected to the system.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Well thats just a negative attitude. Im not worried about Its all going to work out and I don’t care what the costs are. We should have nice stuff and be willing to pay for nice stuff. Its only doom and gloom for those who are stuck in recession mentality which has permeated everything.
That isn’t real. You have think from a place of abundance. Not famine. don’t let them take that from you.
Joey Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Okay, no problem. But don’t expect to be able to take the train to San Diego in your lifetime.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
oh stop it. having a cafe car on the train is not going to doom the san diego extension. lol. your just being dramatic. and san diego is dull as white bread anyway.
Joey Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
I didn’t say doom, I said delay. And as I said, I’m not explicitly opposed to the idea of on-board food services, however they should be cost neutral if not profitable in the context of operations.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
In Israel, it’s very common to have an “It’s all going to work out” attitude. They neglect to maintain things adequately, and as a result ceilings and bridges collapse there.
US railroads are, of course, exactly the same.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
But Joey, consider the two scenarios: (1) the service substantially beats its ridership projections, in which case nothing is going to delay the San Diego extension or (2) the service underperformed its ridership projections, in which case anything that boosts ridership accelerates the San Diego extension.
Under (1), the ridership will be buying new trains at a slightly faster pace and so may provide a slightly smaller surplus for revenue bonds for capital construction. And that is the engineers lament: in a best case situation there is this quarter to half a car that could have been given over to seats! !!
But under (1), its a runaway success and if it is a runaway success, of course it is going to be extended to San Diego and Sacramento. Probably upgrade the ambition of the Altamont commuter overlay to boot.
Under (2), there are empty seats to be filled, and since the amenity is a clear competitive advantage, it will be helping to fill them, and the better it makes the ridership numbers look, the better the prospects for an earlier completion to SD.
Joey Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Again, if it’s financially neutral or positive, no objections. I am skeptical that HSR will be significantly more popular than the Authority’s projections, considering the nature of those numbers (if not deceptively high definitely a highly optimistic estimate), and even in the event of a hugely successful service, there will likely be debt to pay back before we can start building phase two (and the more revenue the sooner that happens). Hopefully there will be a bit more federal money available at that distant point in time to alleviate the problem somewhat, but that’s not guaranteed.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
The cafe car is not a clear competitive advantage over lower seat density.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 10:19 am
Different possible features of the same service do not have competitive advantages relative to each other, they have competitive advantages or disadvantages relative to competing services. What you’ve done there is to narrow the feature matrix down by assuming a given number of seats, when a serious commercial analysis will be:
HN: High seat density, no bistro facilities -> #seats
LN: Low seat density, no bistro facilities -> #seats
HB: High seat density, bistro facilities -> #seats
LB: Low seat density, bistro facilities -> #seats
(Option, ridership low scenario) -> floor
(Option, ridership projection) -> projection
(Option, ridership high scenario) -> ceiling
You are focusing entirely on the ceiling, and ignoring the floor. However, since its a revenue surplus corridor anywhere from the planning projection to the ceiling, focusing on the ceiling is entirely unwarranted, as the additional trains required in that range are self-financing with a surplus. The warranted focus is in the range between the floor and the projection.
Raising the floor is more a matter of marketing, properly understood: how to design the good or service to best maximize its potential competitive advantages. Assuming instead that we are somewhere between the projection and the high scenario is what in Australia is called, “No worries, mate, she’ll be right”, and that cavalier attitude is not justified for a project receiving such a substantial capital grant subsidy.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
I’m not even looking at ceiling – I’m looking at floor, i.e. 65 million passengers (much more likely than ceiling given ridership on comparable lines abroad). If CAHSR goes too much lower than that, then it won’t justify the huge construction cost. At Richard’s predicted ridership, this project is a waste of time and should be canceled.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:09 am
Joey, on a *strict accounting* perspective, dining car revenue minus dining car cost, the dining cars are very slightly cost negative.
However, Amtrak considers that their presence sells more tickets and that the added ticket revenue outbalances the cost from the food service. Since you can never precisely tell whether someone chose to take the train because of the food, this is hard to determine — but I would expect that Amtrak is right, given that the food service “losses” are actually very small compared to ticket revenue. They probably increase net income overall.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:35 am
HSR isn’t Amtrak. It has high seat occupancy, is limited by platform length, and makes large profits from ticket sales.
James Fujita Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
I like eating bento boxes at my seat on the train.
J. Wong Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
In my experience, none of the HSR’s I’ve been on had a dining car. They did have trolleys trundling down the aisle selling food and drinks. Of course, it made more sense to buy something at the station to carry on board. Better quality, cheaper prices.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
people WANT a place to get up and go to. I’m not sure if you are asian, or only travel there or something, but I’m trying to tell you what americans like. Things have to be done to american tastes, from the food, to the seat size and comfort, to the amenities offered. WE just expect certain things and those things must and should be provided. You can’t force americans to live like asians. They dont ‘t want to nor should they have to. there’s no reason for it.
Plop a basic TGV duplex trainset down on cali’s hsr tracks and bam, there you have it, plenty of capacity, plus cars for first class, and a dedicated lounge. No problem.
swing hanger Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
First of all, this is not about making people “to live like Asians”, and frankly I find your comment offensive and veiled about something I’d rather not bring up. Fact- the shinkansen in the beginning had a cafe car, and later in the seventies/early eighties even a dining car. But with the privitisation of the national railways, operations had to be conducted with an aim to making profits (the JR companies have shareholders to satisfy like any big business), and one of the things to go first was the marginal dining car services. It helps that Japan has excellent food services and restaurants at major stations, which means the dining car services were not missed (BTW, Japan and Asia as a whole has a highly developed food culture on par or even more so than Southern Europe, the U.S. is not even in the same league). In the U.S. with many stations being in less than desirable parts of town, or in greenfield locations, I figure a snack bar taking up one half of a car length (at the most) would be adequate. For first class passengers, at-seat service like on TGV Thalys is ok b/c you’re not losing seat revenue. Let’s be honest- Fred Harvey- like dining car meal service is not realistic- that’s history.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Speaking for myself, even a real nostalgia hound like me realizes “Fred Harvey service” isn’t likely to be available, despite the really good food you got. (I have a book of railroad recipes, and Harvey’s French toast is just wonderful–big secret is to use cream instead of the usual milk in the egg-milk mixture. The resulting French toast comes out fluffy, like a pastry, but I wonder what it does to your arteries!) And we had people in America who came down the aisle with snacks, such as candy and fruit in the old days; they were called “news butchers,” who also sold papers and “dime novels” (remember those?), and their members once included a young fellow named Thomas Edison.
But I do wonder if the Japanese–or almost anybody else for that matter–would not be a neater people in disposing of wrappers and such. As I said, too many of my fellow citizens are, well, slobs. That’s why I would suggest some sort of food car or space, to keep most food out of the coaches. As it is, the cleaners will have plenty to do, if the condition of my commuter train when it arrives in Martinsburg is any indication.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:59 am
I don’t know about the Japanese, but Israelis are not very polite or clean as a people. Queue jumping, littering, and spitting on the sidewalk are all common sights in Israeli cities. Israelis often make fun of Americans for following rules too much, that’s how chaotic the country is.
Dan Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:01 am
Having riden the shinkansen far too many times, I can attest to it being quite clean. There is a cleaning crew that jumps on the train for a few minutes at the terminal stations, but otherwise people pretty much clean up after themselves. It probably helps that the food-cart lady picks up the trash from people as she zig-zags through the train.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:19 am
great grandma told me she worked as a waitress in a harvey house.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:22 am
as for slobs, one only need look at i-80 e way to donner summit. EVery winter people from
the lowlands take their kids up the hill to play in the snow. The mess they leave behind is astounding to the point that the locals are beside themselves. They have no sense whatsoever of pack it in pack it out, and they are under the impression that in the /country/nature garbage somehow
magically evaporates by itself.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 10:24 am
Yes, in Cityrail in the shorter turn-around inner suburban services where they don’t have time to do a full clean after the peak service, they put cleaners with litter grabbers and litter bags on a shoulder harness through the train, bagging litter and getting off at a target station where they empty their litter bags, then board the next service the other direction.
There is, of course, no bistro car on intra-city inner suburban commuters, so the large quantity of food and drink that comes onto the train all comes wrapped or in disposable cups or bottles, and Ozzies having about the same littering propensity as Americans, the result is the expected mess.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:31 am
swing hanger- you needn’t be offended, if I didn’t adore asians I wouldnt be living in san francisoc for one, but the cultures in other countries are different. How closer together people live, the amount of personal space, how people greet, etc, I understand the french stand further aprart when shaking hands than americans do for instance, meanhwile in tokyo they employ people to shove you into the subway car. That will not do here. HSR here should be built for american standards and american lifestyle. Give the people what they want. Americans love to eat and eat big. THey like comfort. Why do you think they are so fed up with the airlines — no food service and tiny seats – the top two complaints. We do much better to adopt a more european model like the french, and then give it the california treatment, bike/ski/surfboard racks, healthy selections, full bar, and social/lounge space. Taking the train – even for a couple hours, should be a real pleasure not an exercise in grinning and bearing it.
James Fujita Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
I was overjoyed when Famima!! arrived at Union Station. Partially because I really like Famima!! and partially because I the idea of retail at train stations. They will be adding Subway soon.
This isn’t really Cal HSR’s job, but the local HSR stations should have retail (if the cities are okay with that, which they should be). A restaurant, or a convenience store, or a full-scale department store even; works in Japan and it would work here.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Actually, there is plenty of retail in big eastern stations, most notably Washington Union Station in Washington, DC, and Grand Central Terminal in New York. There used to also be a lot in Penn Station, before the place was demolished for two of the ugliest buildings in New York, one of them being the current Madison Square Garden.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
There’s still a lot of retail at Penn Station. The station halls may be a-maze-ing, but the retail is there.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:49 pm
There’s a lot of retail in Penn Station. I haven’t paid attention in years because I’m preoccupied with jockeying for position at the gate but there’s lots in the station. Restaurants, banks, variety stores, Rumor has it there’s a Kmart up near street level on the LIRR side but I haven’t been up there in years.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I can confirm those rumors for you. The jeans I’m currently wearing come from that K-Mart. Possibly also the socks.
James Fujita Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
you’re not just building HSR for Americans, you’re building them for Californians and some of those Californians are Asians ;)
The ones who aren’t are going to be trendy as hell and would probably appreciate a sushi bento, provided by the cute vendor cart girl XD
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
why does it have to be a girl. ;-P
James Fujita Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
We can find cute boys, too. The POINT is, vending carts work :D
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
but I want to get up and have some place to go. Not be trapped in my seat like on the airplane. Thats the worst part of flying. I can’t sit for an hour. Keep it interesting and let there be a lounge. and other stuff to see.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
No one is going to stop you from getting up and using the restroom in the next car. Or the car at the end of the train ( Assuming you are in coach and the end of the train is coach ) There aren’t going to be “fasten your seatbelts” signs, or announcements about electronic devices. It will be like being on Amtrak but faster. And one would hope, punctual.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
look the chinese are even asian and new and they have it
I think you’re all afraid you’ll go off your diets thats what I think.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
“I think you’re all afraid you’ll go off your diets thats what I think.”–Jim SF
This is interesting, a high-speed rail food fight, still going on, and still going strong! Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho!
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
LOL Oh I won’t let this go. Now look here on these ICE 3 trains they actually brought back a previous more comfy restaurant-y style because pax preferred it. and check out the ICE3 first class compartments
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Yeah, and the Chinese have high seat densities to compensate for the loss of just half a car for bistro service. Seat width is lower than on Shinkansen (it’s 3+2, with narrower trains) and the pitch is middle of the road between TGV and Shinkansen.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
“Now look here on these ICE 3 trains they actually brought back a previous more comfy restaurant-y style because pax preferred it. ”
This is the thing. A big benefit of the HSR over flying is the ability to do something rather than moving from ticket check in line to security check point line to gate wait seats to gate boarding lines, to airplane seats. Sure, some of those things are watching a streaming show or playing an online game or getting into an argument in an online blog … but another one of those things is eating and drinking and chatting.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:13 am
I think that, again, the question of whether you need trolley service, a lounge car, a dining car, is *entirely* related to length of journey. For journeys under one hour, you don’t absolutely need any of ti, the ability to get up and stretch your legs or go to the restroom, plus the ability to chose “four around a table” seating, is enough. For longer journeys, you start needing to provide amenities, and the longer the trip the more amenities.
Regarding food, the questions are also related to the presence of services at stations. If every station has a Harvey House and the trips are under four hours, you likely don’t need food service. Otherwise, you probably do.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
if youre going to hire more cleaners, why not hire more kitchen staff instead and serve real food. People love to go and on about “oh we ate on the train it was so nice, and we met all these nice people and the food was good, oh and then we sat in the lounge and played cards with this nice couple from new zealand…..”etc etc.
Whomever operates cali hsr, would be wise to offer plenty o amenities and features as possible. No one wants to spend 3 hours on a featureless train which would make essentially like riding a bart train really fast for 3 hours. No thanks. We want nice stuff please.
Joey Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
What most high speed trains with food service have amounts to a bar with one (or maybe two) people serving premade food. “Kitchen staff” (plural) is not something that is generally associated with high speed rail.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
First, the TGV has half of a dedicated car for it – the upper deck of one car. And the TGV isn’t the best-run HSR, not even close; the French are very good at constructing rail on time and on a reasonable budget, but not at operating it afterward.
Second, the plan for CAHSR is to have very high frequency from the start, unlike on the TGV. This means that there are real gains to be had from putting as many people on each train as comfortably possible.
And third, the cost of cleaners isn’t large – it’s probably about the same as the cost of a single cafe car employee, or not much higher. But the main problem with cafe cars isn’t the cost, but the lost revenue from not having seats. You lose about $3,000 per train run not having the seats, versus maybe $30 hiring extra cleaners.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
but higher frequency means you don’t need as many seats. and second there is going to be tons of excess capacity. Put the damn cafe car on the train for christ sake or people won’t like it.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Remember when the 747 was new? They were going to have a lounge up on the upper deck where people could go and …. lounge. How many airliners have cafe service? How many Greyhound buses? Most people can stand the horror of not eating for 3 hours.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
I don’t whether they can. Im saying there is no earthly damn reason not to offer it.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
I have to agree with jimsf that having onboard food service that one can get up and go to is going to be a draw for passengers. It’s simply far more convenient and humanizing than airline style service is and it’s something to do. Otherwise you’re going to end up feeling like you’re packed in a sardine can just like an airliner.
Clem Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Lounges are only gone from domestic air travel. Check this out, on an Emirates A380 (the aircraft with showers in first)
Airliners are far more mass constrained than trains, even high speed trains. Seat frames on the TGV Duplex are made of magnesium to save weight, but it still has a proper snack bar / lounge car.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
Wow, and with a bit of polished wood to boot! And did you note in the comments that someone remembered the lounges in early 747s?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:26 am
Clem, the lounges are only on the 380; they’re just like the old-time lounges on the 747, and will probably disappear at the next refurbishment.
Paulus, the reason airlines feel packed is that they offer tiny seat space. Domestic coach in the US offers 31″ of pitch, versus 39.4″ on the Shinkansen.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
I mean you act like 10 car, 1000 passenger trains, departing every 10 mintues, are going to be packed to the gills or something. That isn’t going to be the case.
There isn’t going to be a seat shortage. There is plenty of space for a cafe car as well as first class.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:27 am
The ridership model says that there will be 16-car, 1,000-passenger trains departing every 7 minutes.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
you only loose the revenue if the train is sold out and you can’t accommodate people. That won’t happen especially if you are using something like tgv duplex at 500+ pax per train or tgv TransManche at 750 pax per train. Those trains have cafe cars and first class cars as well as coach.
Joey Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
You loose revenue if you (a) have to run more trains in order to serve the same number of passengers or (b) Have fewer passengers for the same number of trains. Unless you can find a way to vastly increase occupancy (percent of seats which are full), this will always remain true.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
But you gain revenue if you have more frequent service for the same transport market, since with more frequent service you will gain a larger share of the market. Its not automatically a question of a fixed pool of “HSR passengers” and then you have to work out how to get the self loading freight to market in the least cost way.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:32 am
We’re not talking about 20 versus 30 minute frequency here; we’re talking 7 versus 8 minutes.
And if frequency is so important that cutting 1 tph is that bad, they can run trains at the higher frequency but offer more legroom. With a Shinkansen-style seating plan and 2+2 seating in coach, you get about 1,100 passengers per train, with higher seat pitch and width in coach than is available on domestic first class air travel.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
The initial HSR service is not going to start with 7tph.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:16 am
If cafe cars increase off-peak ridership at the expense of peak ridership (which I would lay bets that they do), then they can end up being a net improvement. They only cut capacity for *peak* ridership, remember… and if they increase the off-peak ridership by more than that to compensate, you probably made a good deal.
If you aren’t full at peak ridership, the cafe car is almost certainly a good idea.
Mad Park Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
I have to agree w/ jimsf. Just because United and The Hound pack ‘em on and don’t feed ‘em is no excuse for Amtrak or CAHSR not doing so. Lets have the trains in this country be positively differentiated from other forms of transport – with real amenities which make for a comfortable, pleasant (and eventually speedy) journey. What on earth can be the downside?
Dan S. Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Cost and loss of revenue is the downside. I personally think this 2.5 hour HSR ride is going to sell by itself and Californians are going to love it. I don’t see the need for a dining car personally, but I expect that decision to be left up to the eventual operator. Sure, it would be romantic and a throw-back to the old days to have a cafe car and a little bar and seats that swivel around and why not some panoramic windows. But to me they are frills and are not part of the basic game-changing benefits of HSR. I say can the dining cars for Phase I. Lets see those operating profits first.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Here’s the thing: the longest anyone is going to be on HSR at a given time is maybe 3 hours. So having a sit-down dinner car ins’t the answer because you’d barely have enough time for one set of passengers to have a full meal. But, the CAHSR should have really good options for things like coffee (starbucks anyone) and perhaps a lounge with bar. The more elaborate options would work best for a Desert Xpress train or if a similar idea came about for Tahoe. There you could do lots of different things with your captive audience.
Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned for HSR is “IFE” or inflight entertainment systems. Ideally, CAHSR could show some sort of programming on seat backs and sell ad space during the programming to pay for it. I imagine it would be quite succesful.
Peter Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Yeah, some of the ICE routes are very long in comparison to the 3 hour trips people might be on on CAHSR. Berlin-Munich, for example, is six hours long. It’s quite nice to get up and go have a meal somewhere on the train when you’re on it that long. 3 hours, meh, not quite as important.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
3 hours is too long for americans to sit with nothing to do. seat back entertainment and a bar/lounge are needed. You can certainly turn a profit with the booze mark up if you do it right. And your not losing that many seats since maybe only the peak rush hour trains may be sold out. the germans, the french, the italians, acela, and the spanish, all have cafe cars, theres no reason on earth for us not to. Offereing amenities, multiple classes of service, multiple fare buckets, peak, leisure, advance purchase, and so forth, give the most choice to the most people. You aren’t going to force californians into some ugly boring one size fits all soviet style 3 hour muni ride.
I promise you if the state has any say in this, and I believe chsra is a state transportation agency, we will most certainly have these things I listed, and, Ill bet lunch we wind up with double deck ttgv duplex trainsets at some point too. Just you watch.
Peter Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
“3 hours is too long for americans to sit with nothing to do. seat back entertainment and a bar/lounge are needed.”
“You aren’t going to force californians into some ugly boring one size fits all soviet style 3 hour muni ride.”
Which is why Southwest sells out 5-6 hour flights between CA and the East Coast with no entertainment and only peanuts provided.
Look, I’m not saying to not consider a cafe car, but just that the system would do just fine without a dedicated cafe car.
Dan S. Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
Well, I’m glad we got that settled! Listen, jimsf, if they build ‘em with a bar car, I’m buying you a drink as we rocket at 200mph through the CV. Okay?
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:57 pm
no cafe=unacceptable period. I object.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:00 am
and for criminy sake, the last thing we wanna do is have southworst service levels on the train. barf. If I wanted to spend three hours on a flying muni bus Id attach wings to the 14L.
please just stop.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:08 am
and yes dan s, Ill have the bloody mary with my eggs benedict thanks.
ks Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 1:01 am
“3 hours is too long for americans to sit with nothing to do. seat back entertainment and a bar/lounge are needed.”
No entertainment, no problem. You’ve got iPad!
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 1:04 am
still you want a place to congregate and socialize.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:34 am
Peter, there are people who don’t fly Southwest as a result.
For the younger generation, WiFi and a USB plug for power and they are set for entertainment. But an intranet streaming video service would reduce the out of train bandwidth required.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:28 am
There’s a very big difference between “no food” and “no dedicated cafe car.”
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:06 am
the trains are going to have a cafe car and thats the end of it. The state will insist on it.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:28 am
You don’t get off a train at a through station to grab a snack on a two hour trip, you either get it on the train or wait. Being able to offer it on the train in a walk up cafe car or car section is one more time efficiency that rail travel offers to the traveler. The equivalent air flight offers peanuts and a sip of a drink at best, nothing at worst.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be a full car dedicated to it, but the business case for including it seems far stronger than the business case against it ~ its “give people reason to use the train” versus “pack ‘em in”.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Nobody gets off at a station to grab a snack, unless they’re riding on LD Amtrak trains with absurdly long major city stops and horrendous, overpriced on-board food. On the Shinkansen, you only ever get to grab a snack at an intermediate station if you’re taking Kodama and your train dwells forever (i.e. 7 minutes) to let Nozomi trains pass. You get food on board at the food cart or at your station of origin.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
I think that the trains will have at least a 2 class service in seating tho it might not have an at your seat food servcie like Acela.but im tending to think it will ..Americans as Jimsf says expect food onboard
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
the secret reason they will put food on board though is to purposely make richard mad. but don’t tell anyone.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
So, Alon, after agreeing with me that nobody would jump off the train to grab a snack ~ unless it was something like getting off the Sydney express at Wyong to catch the Central Coast local, in which case there would be ample time to amble over to the local newsie for a cup of coffee and an Anzac biscuit ~ you reiterate how its done on the Shinkansen.
And since granting that the way its done on the Shinkansen is appropriate for the rate of capacity utilization on the Shinkansen lines does not automatically translate into it being appropriate for the California HSR, the actual missing steps have to be filled in before its an argument for the CA HSR.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Um, no. Please reread what I’m saying. I’m saying people should be buying snacks at their station of origin. Intermediate stations are a red herring. Nobody actually does that, except in a few long-dwell cases.
The proposed operating plan for California makes the Shinkansen the best analogy: very high frequency on a single line. Once your frequency is measured in tph and not in hours and half-hours, you want to be able to run the fewest trains feasible.
More broadly, best industry practice for low operating costs is achieved in Japan (best practice for low construction costs is in Spain). That’s true on nearly every level of service: subways for under a dollar per rider, commuter lines that make money, and so on. And it’s true on HSR, too, down to space efficiency: far from trying to “maximize the amount of human meat,” the Shinkansen actually offers spacious legroom.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
but ALon, none of that matters. What matter is what customers want. And I’m telling you that Californians are going to expect food and beverage service on board. What do you care how it cuts in to the operators (or perhaps enhances) profit. Are you planning to open your own hsr operating franchise? AlonRail* Sit down. Shut up. And Ride* lol
Whats going on here is that you like the technical aspects of the japanese model, and Illl bet your one of those science-y engineering types who is fond of such things where everything is about numbers and efficiency. so that might explain it. But there is more to life than that. And making the train trip fun, social, with places to mix and mingle, have cocktails, and have a little “ooh ahhh
” factor also has value. Quit trying to take all the fun out of it.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
My experience with different peoples is that what they want is largely the same. Westerners’ ideas of what Asians accept and/or want tend to be based almost entirely on prejudice, and are usually trivially refuted by knowing more than 1-2 Asians. Westerners really need to let go of the notion that Asians are an undifferentiated hive with no individuality or desire for individuality; besides being racist, it’s not even how Asians stereotype themselves.
By and large, “It won’t work here” comes from one of two places: bureaucrats giving excuses for why they’re inefficient, and racists wanting to look down on other groups of people.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
But the fact that they don’t have to will be a selling point. The fewer things you “have to get done” before you are ready to board, and the fewer things you have to carry with you along with your regular luggage, the less hassle. The less hassle, the better the competitive advantage compared to air and driving.
Especially compared to driving, because you have to stop moving to go to a cafe or sandwich shop while driving, while with a train you can go to a cafe or sandwich shop while in motion.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
You’re ignoring the food carts again.
Dan S. Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
In a way, jimsf’s “it won’t work here” attitude about food service on the train mimics the “it won’t work here” attitude of nimbys in expensive zip codes who are raising a stink about a change to the rail corridor in their backyards. Both of these groups appear to me to be stubbornly clinging to their preconceptions of how things “ought to be.” :-)
Sorry jim, I guess I just like needling folks sometimes! I really don’t otherwise put you in any of the various negative classifications I generally sort that other lot into!
Nevertheless, I did just head on over to youtube and searched for “TGV dining car” and “ICE dining car” and I love the looks of those lounge and dining cars! If something like that did hit the CAHSR circuit, I wouldn’t feel like I had lost a bet! It will be very interesting to see what the trainsets end up looking like. I would only hazard to bet that nothing is set in stone yet.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 10:31 am
However, it can be flipped around ~ we know that the service will be more attractive here with a bistro or cafe in one of the cars. We also know that ridership in the early years is far more crucial to the success of the project than maximum ridership well down the track with capacity fully utilized. It would therefore be foolish to reduce the service provision to a food service cart alone if provision of a cafe or bistro facility would increase the competitive advantage of the transport service.
The empirical question is therefore whether or not it would. jimsf’s observation is that the cafe car is a popular service even on two hour legs, and so given the large share of total transport that is projected to occur between points in the Bay Area and points in the LA Basin, the best empirical information we have is that provision of a cafe or bistro facility would indeed offer a competitive advantage.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
@ Alon, You are ignoring the fact that the food carts do not provide the full competitive advantage provided by bistro/cafe facilities. Obviously if, due to pressing up against corridor capacity constraints, bistro/cafe facilities are not feasible, food carts are necessary as a next best option.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
You’re ignoring other things I’m mentioning – for example, the possibility of more legroom. If running more trains than necessary is useful to build ridership, which is almost certainly false at the predicted initial ridership levels, then the extra space on board should be allocated based on more rational accounting principles than “I like cafe cars.”
jimsf Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Alon, its not that “I” like them or anyone here “likes” them. Its that passengers like them. And I don’t care what passengers in japan, or italy, or canada, or Antarctica like, its that americans, exiisting riders especially, ( those who will be at first most likey to try the service) like the cafe cars. They love them. They scream if they don’t have them or if god forbid its closed or out of their favorite item. Thats just a fact. So the goal is to keep the passengers happy and freakin give them what they want. Otherwise theres no point in being in business.
Spokker Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Passengers like them because it’s something to do on their six day train ride to unstaffed stations. I’m not sure why HSR needs cafe cars.
jimsf Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
No – they like them on their 1-2 hour capitol corridor ride. And don’t dare close it, or run out of something. The pasengers get the politicians involved in order to get the food service and to make sure they get exactly the items they want.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:17 am
2.5 or 3 hours? Definitely lounge/cafe needed, diner not needed.
Dan S. Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Passengers *like* those amenities, sure! Hell, I’d like having a personal masseuse and a panoramic view car and how abouts a car with a dance floor and a disco ball just for when I feel like gettin’ down? One point to consider is that all of these amenities, even a snack-bar-car, cost some amount of money to run and staff, and take away space for the seats for paying customers that this train is actually meant to service. I *don’t* see it as a foregone conclusion that spending the money on these services would definitely pay for itself in profits or by luring more riders. It might just attract a small portion of the system’s ridership who would still buy a ticket even without such services and end up being a net money-loser. I don’t think you can prove to me that it’s a sure-thing.
And do we definitely want to maximize ridership at the expense of profits in the first years of operation? Not clear to me. Definitely depends on the amount of private financing used to build and operate the system, no? CHSRA seems to agree that this question is still TBD in that they tweaked the studied ticket price points pretty severely once already.
But I sure won’t argue that those services would be “liked.” Should we build them is a different question, alls I’m sayin’.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:00 am
im going to bed before this topic gives me a stroke.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:39 am
(To the closing harmonica chords from “The Waltons”):
Good night, Jim SF.
Good night, Spokker.
Good night, Elizabeth.
Good night, Morris.
Good night, D. P.
Good night, Nadia.
Good night, Peter.
Good night, Alon.
Good night, Robert.
Good night, everyone.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:33 am
I’m going to date myself here and say my first association is the ghetto version of Good Night Moon on The Wire: good night moon, good night fiends, good night po-po, good night moon.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
I still think that if Amtrak could actually run a true overnight major market sleeping car service it would sell and make money. Chicago to New York overnight would be a major market and at one time had many trains running. freight railroads of today don’t have the same track capacity to do this anymore though with continued growth in the container and intermodal services that may just add tracks that fast overnight trains can use. Looking at old railroad books and timetables what a wonderful way to travel that must’ve been, cozy sleeping car rooms fine dining on a hotel on wheels all for the price of less than an airline ticket and a hotel.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
If we had an overnight sleeper service between la and sf it would be a big hit. That I know.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
I’ve mentioned a friend who has been involved in station restoration, and with whom I got to discuss that coast-to-coast overnight service that we will have to wait a while for.
He’s a diabetic with mobility problems (lost a leg due to this disease), and he has a son in Albequerke, N.M. Airplanes are just too cramped for his very large build, and driving from West Virginia to New Mexico is at best marginal for him, if not simply out of the question. He and his wife took the train out to New Mexico and back (the train involved were the Capitol Limited and the Southwest Chief), going in a lower level Superliner sleeping compartment, with meals brought to the room. I recall he said total fare was on the order of $1,700 for the two of them, round trip. Said he priced motels, meals, and car expenses for such a long trip, and said it made economic sense for him as well, plus the train was faster (you rode while you slept, another multi-tasking advantage of rail travel).
I’ll mention he is a long-time train traveler, going back into the 1950s, and knows a thing or two on the subject, having recently completed a manuscript on the history of the passenger service his favorite road, the Baltimore & Ohio. He is now looking for a publisher. If the book goes into print, I’ll let you know about it.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
My uncle who is long since passed away used to do regular overnight business travel as late as the early 1960s by sleeper . I still have some of his old timetables from the Pennsylvania Railroad. It’s depressing to look at all the great overnight train that used to run even through a midsize city like Canton Ohio which now has absolute no Amtrak service. His last years before retiring he was forced to use the airlines as service degraded quite a lot ,eventually Amtrak took over and the timings for the trains became unusable.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:20 am
Amtrak is routinely cheaper than driving if you account for hotels and restaurant as well as gas and wear-and-tear on the car. And more pleasant, of course. This assumes that you have an appropriate route, however. :-( And assumes you’re not one of those crazy people who drives 24 hours a day with no hotel.
jim Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
I take the overnight sleeper between Washington (actually Alexandria, just outside Washington) to Atlanta. For two people, the fare is comparable to air. The train leaves Alexandria in the early evening, gets into Atlanta just after breakfast. On the return it leaves Atlanta in mid-evening and gets into Alexandria mid-morning. On one occasion, the return train was two hours late arriving in Atlanta (got stuck behind a stone unit train), but they held the dining car open for us. It’s not a bad trip, but the track south of Charlotte leaves something to be desired.
The real problem is that few city pairs work out as well as Washington-Atlanta. The trip is either too long or too short.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Yes few city pairs are workable for true overnight service compared to 1960 and before
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
did the cities move?
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
Amtrak is not the Pennsy
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
True, but Washington-Atlanta was Southern Railway. :-)
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Yes, jet airplanes happened. Makes the cities much “closer” than they were in 1960. Much cheaper too.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
…..the trains are slower and far less service so now there is usallly only one train a day and not a true overnight between cities. In the past some city pairs had 3-5 trains a day and one usually was that late 11pm service
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
most of amtraks LD trains are also timed so that the best scenery is during the day portion of the trip on purpose.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
No Amtrak trains are timed what the freight railroads say they can support..otherwise we would have a 16hours overnight timetable between NYC-CHI..the roadbed is in outsanding shape and 90mph could be done..they dont wont it
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:27 pm
No, they are timed on purpose for scenery reasons. the starlight the zephry the cheif and the empire all all done that way.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Yes true for the western trains I have taken the Zepher several times cross country..Now at chicago it changes..the lakeshore leaves at 10pm for a 6pm NYC arrival, this adds another entire day when it should leave around 5-6pm for a AM NYC arrival
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
and considering all the trains from the west that connect in chicago arrive mid afternoon, it would seem like the lakeshore should dep chi around 5 or 6 not 10.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Though that is what makes it a reasonable sleeper for Buffalo / Rochester / Syracuse and a good corridor service Buffalo through to Albany. And with a 20hr run, which is +21:00 on the clock eastbound, +19:00 on the clock westbound, a 5-6pm departure would be a 2pm-3pm arrival. An 8 am NYC arrival (7am Central) requires a 10am departure.
Obviously crossing to the opposite side of the clock face flips over the strongest corridor benefit to the western part of the route.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:27 am
Don’t get me started on the history of the Lake Shore Limited timing.
On an optimistic note, the Englewood Flyover, being constructed now in Chicago, but which will take several years to construct, is expected to knock something like an *hour* off the westbound time. Currently any failure to hit the slot for Englewood Crossing causes a long knock-on delay, and the schedule has to address this.
The LSL also departs late because it’s the “cleanup” train for passengers from late trains arriving from the West. This job should be swapped with the less popular Capitol Limited, or better the Pennsylvanian, but anyway….
There’s a massive scheduled wait eastbound at Albany, because failure to hit the slot for entering Metro-North causes major knock-on delays. One intelligent proposal was to split the train at Cleveland instead of at Albany (running Chi-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia-NYC), leaving the upstate-NYC market to the Empire Service and transfers at Albany. It would shorten the time to NYC a little, and the time to Boston significantly.
A lot of the other delays in the LSL were requested by CSX (which does *not* maintain its tracks properly) or by NS (which is mostly dealing with congestion in Chicago).
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
The zephyr is timed for day time over the sierra, night across nevada, day2 along the colorado and the spectacular rockies down into denver, the night across the plains, arriving CHI early afternoon.
On the way back its timed the same way in reverse to showcase those elements.
The starlight is the same. day time in both directions thru wash and ore, nightime up the central valley day time along the cali coast.
The empire builder leaves seattle in the eve, and timed for day over the rockies and Glacier national park, night to across the plains and day time through minnesota wisc lake country, and into chi.- same thing in reverse.
same for the chief.- out of la in the eve, day trip through the moutains/grand canyon areas/FLG/ABQ/SAF areas then night across the plains, into chi the next afternoon.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:41 am
And there are tensions with corridor timings … sleeper services Cleveland / CHI and Cleveland / NYC that leaves between 7pm and 10pm would be more attractive than the present services after midnight, but adding extra services requires state subsidies, and states are loathe to subsidize trains running through their states in the middle of the night to that riders in a neighboring state can have a good sleeper schedule.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:58 am
Tmes at Cleveland are poor..thou at one time the westbound Lakeshore was good in a 7AM train for Chicago that had ran overnight from NYC..
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Similar with Cincinnati, but since the Cardinal is supposed to provide a morning connection Indianapolis to Chicago, it can’t run through Cincinnati at the right time of night to be a sleeper to Chicago or to be a day train to Chicago and a well timed sleeper to the NEC.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
The last trip I could get anyone to pick me up at those middle of the night hours..so of all things my train trip ended at Chicago and I took the CTA out to Midway for southwest!!
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:36 am
From Chicago westward, the LD trains are timed for scenery. Further east, they’re not – there isn’t that much scenery to time trains for.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:24 am
You have to get out more. There’s some spectacular scenery on the East Coast. There’s also some spectacular gritty industrial underbelly to be seen. I particularly like Kearny to Linden on the NEC. It’s spectacular in it’s own way. . .
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:00 am
The part of the east coast that I am familiar with is new england, and Ive always said that if I wasn’t able to live in california, then the only place in the us id consider would be new england, with the white mountains of new hampshire, the beaches, the maine coast, the lakes, forests, etc, and food to die for. I could manage. The weather would suck. but still. ( and I have to admit I love chicago per the two short times I went there- very nice city)
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:04 am
and while I would never live there, places like west virginia and tennesee are stunning in their own way.,, espcially the smokey mountains.
YOu see nothing of america when you fly. ( although I admit I never tire of the coast air route between laand sf cuz I love looking at my states geo.
But when you travel on the ground you really get a chance to re connect. I think our country is so divided now in part because we aren’t connected to it anymore.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
The spectacular scenery isn’t near most LD trains, unless you consider Tidewater Virginia to be scenic. The Adirondacks, the Hudson Highlands, and New England are all served by day trains.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:29 am
I consider the Erie Canal route spectacular, but that’s local bias. :-) The Hudson is seen in daytime both directions on every route, the Erie Canal on one direction of the LSL and not the other.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:36 am
The Hudson is seen in daytime because the train needs to arrive in or depart from New York in the daytime or early night.
Andy M. Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 9:46 am
I live in Europe but have travelled on many different Amtrak routes on my USA vacations and I know many Americans love to drool over some of our European trains, but believe me, rail travel in America is not costly. I usually book a roomette which comes with all meals included and comparing this to similar accomodation and a similar distance on a European train and my guesstimate is that you pay half of what we do. I recently payed about 300 dollars for a roomette going from Chicago to Albuquerque. This is a bit like going from central Sweden to Switzerland, or from Nothern Germany to Barcelona. Neither of those corridors even has through trains any more, but taking into account multple changes (which only a railfan would do) and going for similar quality accomodation I would easily spend double that sum.
Donk Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Yeah but I doubt the route from Sweden to Switzerland would be 14 hours late like the route from Chicago to Albuquerque.
An acela ticket between NYP and WAS can be had for as little as 135.00 not 200-300 and thats for a business class ticket. try finding business class airline tickets between sf and la for that.
Granted there are several fare buckets based on demand as no doubt there will be on cali’s hsr.
Peak demand business travel pays more, low fares available to flexible leisure travelers. The upgrade to first is an additional 102.00
Regional fares being in the 50-75 range. Which match the coach fares for the airlines in that market.
further, the first class airfare in that market booked a month in advance is 336.00 to acelas 237.00 and try flying out of midtown manhattan. not easy to do. Im not too familiar with new york city but I can just imagine what a treat it must be to try to get from the financial district to jfk at 5pm
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Actually it’s not that bad getting to any of the airports from Manhattan. If you are in midtown there’s direct buses. Or the subway to Jackson Heights and a short bus ride to La Guardia. Newark has a full fledged train station. One seat ride from Penn Station or two seat from Wall Street, PATH to Newark and then the train. I think the bus to Newark Airport from Penn Station in Newark still runs too. JFK is a piece of cake. “A” Train to Howard Beach and then Airtrain to the terminal. Or the LIRR to Jamaica and Airtrain. Or the “E” or the “J” to Jamaica and then Airtrain.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
YES by transit..I was traveling with friends that insisted we take a cab to Kennedy the freeway was gridlocked we barely made the flight and we left ourselves like two hours padding.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
yeh I was thinking driving too. I did not know however that the subway went into the airports there. I was under the impression that it was complicated.
Perhaps one day I will take a deep brath, grit my teeth, and visit new york. ugh. But not till they fix that bedbug problem. ewww.
Alan F Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
None of the 3 main NYC airports are connected by the subway. Newark Airport has a station stop on the NEC, JFK has an Airtrain that runs from LIRR’s Jamaica station and the Howard Street subway station. However, La Guardia does not a rail connection; you have to take a bus, cab, or car to get there.
As for NYC, it is an interesting place to visit. Lots to see, even more places to eat.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
HEy Adirondack – check it out you made the top ten!
Now,
for the sf-la market, currently, booking far out, mid feb. on a leisure saturday, flights are in the $49.70 to 91.70 for nonstop coach.
Amtrak fares in that market for coach range pretty much match that on all 3 routes (sjq/surf/starlight)
First class flights for the same day are $330-$377 one way nonstop.
A first class ticket in a private compartment with 3 meals from sf-la is 54.00 rail fare plus 129 for the room an meals. total 183 for one person. in addtion if you are with a partner and sharing the compartment, it bring the per person cost down to just 118.00 per person versus 660.00 for two people in first class on the plane.
Weve already long established the superior comfort and experience of rail travel, and we have also already established that, while flying is faster, its not that much faster after factoring the schlepp.
So its no wonder we are setting ridership records in cali and nationwide. And what I hear from passengers on a daily basis, confirms what I pointed out above.
So we can expect hsr in cali to mirror the pricing numbers for coach, business and first, and likely blow the airlines out of the water one you add the speed.
The airlines should be very nervous. There is no doubt whatsover in my mind that hsr is going to surprise us all with its success.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
No matter what all the naysayers and deniers post high speed rail in California is going to be a major success and profitable.
Johnathan Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
And if DesertXpress connects to Palmdale, that could add another 10 million ridership on our system.
Gamblers would be able to ride the Las Vegas Monorail, one-seat DesertXpress to Anaheim ARTIC, and Anaheim Rapid Connection to Disneyland, all within 3.5 hours.
The number of air travelers between LA and LV is about 60% of LA and the Bay Area, so this route could be another major loss to the airline industry.
With future expansions to San Diego, Sacramento, and Phoenix, CAHSR would be more than profitable.
It would change our airlines from serving Southwest regional flights to expanding our international tourism industry.
About subsdized travel: When I lived in Europe, children under 13 were able to ride for free in the presence of their parents.
On top of that, when I went to school, my monthly bus pass paid for bus, light rail, subway and commuter rail, and even the ICE for a 7 euro surcharge as long as I travel in the covered region. The pass used to cost me 21 euros/month.
There is no surprise why so many Europeans use public transit and it saves the govt. billions. Fortunately, high speed rail is able to providde fair prices while covering all operating expenses. The key are the stations which will soon be the center of urban life. They function as malls, museums, cultural centers, hotels thus are magnets to business.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
DAmn Commies!!! lol
Re: “[Acela] has grabbed the majority of trips on the Northeast Corridor.”
This is not quite true. Amtrak trains (including the cheaper Northeast Reginonal as well as the business-class-only Acela) have 55% of the rail/air market, and about half of the rail/bus/air market, but many people also drive between cities. The numbers are not as certain, but I believe half of the intercity trips in the Northeast Corridor may be by car.
By comparision, real high speed rail, like the Ave in Madrid/Barcelona, will get the majority of the total travel market, while increasing the size of the pie (inducing demand for trips that would not have been taken otherwise).
Alon Levy Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Do you have a citation for “about half of the rail/bus/air market”? I haven’t seen any numbers comparing Amtrak with buses, but a back-of-the-envelope estimate of bus ridership from the number of daily departures makes it look like Amtrak and the buses have about the same ridership.
Amtrak itself claims that if it builds its (gold-plated, making Kopp et al look like the masters of cost control) HSR proposal, about half of trips on the NY-DC and NY-Boston legs will be by car. Right now it’s 70-80% or more.
Caelestor Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
You got any plans on how to reduce the cost of infrastructure building in USA? (Honest question.)
Current costs are just getting absurd (the NYC Subway 7 extension comes to mind).
Dan S. Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
I think the best thing we can do at the moment is convince our fellow citizens that infrastructure is an important priority for our country. More Americans need to be paying attention to the infrastructure conversation, demanding more infrastructure spending and more bang for the buck. Currently, American political apathy has resulted in a climate where special interests can take advantage of the little transportation money currently spent, milking it for their own benefit while the public largely ignores the issue.
Honestly, I don’t expect Americans to change their attitude without the price of oil going up on its own. Until then, I’ll still support imperfect infrastructure projects if I think they produce a net benefit for the US.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
AT soon 100bucks a barrel the Walmart American will soon scream for “socialist “gas regulated prices
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:54 pm
the californian wont need nearly as much prodding, not having the aversion to change that the walmart american has. All you have to do for the californian is make is fast, kewl, and simple and you’ve got a winner. I still say apple should design, market and operate the trains.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:42 am
Do I have plans? Generally, no. If I did, I wouldn’t be commenting on blogs.
But specifically for the NEC, I do actually have a plan. The differences from Amtrak’s plan are, broadly, as follows:
1. No tunneling in Philadelphia or Westchester, and a cheaper tunnel in Baltimore.
2. Fixing curves based on cost-benefit ratios: Metuchen (which Amtrak doesn’t want to fix) is high on the list, downtown Baltimore isn’t.
3. A coastal alignment in Connecticut, using I-95 east of New Haven (technically very simple), and switching back and forth between rights of way west of New Haven (difficult, but less so than a hilly inland alignment).
4. More demanding rolling stock requirements, offsetting reduced infrastructure.
not just the french, but look at the spanish ave series – gorgeous, and with first and cafe, and many of the italian high speed trains have sit down dining cars. id assume the germans have food too.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
The German trains do have food service cars; the ones in the original ICE trains are distinctive in having a raised roofline compared with the rest of the train, reminiscent to my eyes of a rebuilt heavyweight car running in a string of steamliners in a US train in the 1950s.
http://www.marriedandthecity.com/2010/04/20/ice-train-in-germany/
In this model set, the food service car is the one in front, between the two power cars; note its raised roof line and upper level windows over the table areas.
http://images04.olx.com/ui/2/76/72/38347472_1.jpg
For reference, what looks like a rather informative Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity-Express
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
niiiice – luv that raised skylight feature. cali would flip over that .
Peter Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:14 am
It’s not exactly a raised skylight. They had to build it that way to fit in all the kitchen equipment.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:20 am
All ICE trains have a restaurant car and/or a self-service bistro. Apparently public phone booths and luggage lockers are available on board the train. They are also strictly non-smoking trains. All ICE trains have in-seat video screens, an integral audio system, plugs for computer notebooks and laptops or telecommunication zones. From what I read, the latest ICE generation ICE 3 even offers a magnificent panoramic lounge at each end of the train set for a spectacular view of the landscape.
if the germans get all that cool stuff then we get it to and thats all there is to it.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:29 am
You do realize that “self service bistro” probably means vending machines and microwaves? And the magnificent lounge is only there for people buying 8 dollar beers or 6 dollar coffees from the attendant? Only place they cook raw food to order, on transportation these days is on cruise ships.
Andy M. Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 9:53 am
No, there is no surchharge for using the observation lounge, and no need to order drinks either. The lounge at one end of the train is first class, the other is second class. Unfortunately though the next generation won’t have this feature any more.
The self-service loung is not vending machines and microwaves. It’s a bit like the cafeteria car on Amtrak in that there is a counter where you can oder a variety of hot and cold meals and then either take them back to your seat or sit at one of the (limited) number of tables in the cafeteria car. First class passengers also have an at-seat service.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:51 am
…and the video screens …. according to wikipedia:
The ICE 1 fleet is currently seeing a major overhaul, supposed to extend the lifetime of the trains by another 15 to 20 years. Seats and the interior design are adapted to the ICE 3 design, electric sockets are added to every seat, the audio and video entertainment systems are being removed and electronic seat reservation indicators are added above the seats.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:56 am
I dont care. we are having ultra lounges with sandwiches and california rolls, and napa greens with rasbery vinigrette, amy’s vegeratian selections, and chips and pepsi and cocktails.
Drunk Engineer Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:41 am
From SJ-SF, and LAUS-Anaheim, trains should ideally handle some of the commuter traffic (with integrated ticketing even!). Is a cafe car compatible with that dual use? I’m not sure that it is. Leaving a bunch of commuters stuck on a platform because the train is “full” just so you can subsidize the sale of sucky coffee and stale doughnuts is pretty stupid, if you ask me.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:18 am
you’re just making things up. who’s getting left behind? And where are these trains that are so full?
thatbruce Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:53 am
Cafe Car == Induced demand, more so in the case of a commuter who might, every so often, take the HSR service instead of the local commute train because it has a cafe car.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:27 am
The want a drink and snack on their way home from work etc. Ofcourse a bar car on a bart train would not really be feasible, my point was simply about the local attitude and expectation. I say give em what they want. But you are right, a lot of people would opt for the hsr as a “treat” for themselves to get those services, no doubt about it.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:35 am
Cafe car =
* reduced seats per train
* larger number of train cars to provide the same level of service
* reduced energy efficiency hauling around extra underused space
* higher dwell times for “servicing” and “restocking”
* larger number of trains to provide the same level of service (we’re talking tens of millions here)
* extra, super-expensive infrastructure (“back of house”, etc) at urban terminals for under-used catering concession (we’re talking tens or even hundreds of millions here — no joke)
* absolutely NO POINT AT ALL for trips that last less than three hours
* completely redundant given the presence of “cafes” and “shops” in or near the “stations” in the “cities” (well San José excluded) that these trains are supposed to serve
* 100% against the trends in every inter-city service everywhere in the world.
Here’s how it works in the real world:
You walk from the street into, say, the Hamburg train station.
You buy a sandwich (mmmmm fried herring ….) from any of the dozens of vendors in or around it.
You walk onto the platform (which platform is known months in advance) just before the train arrives (which time is known months in advance) with no fare gates or security or rectal probe TSA bullshit.
You get on the train with your sandwich, find a seat, and munch away.
You get off the train at your destination, having disposed of any detritus in a civilized fashion.
You buy a drink or dinner or whatever at one of the “restaurants” or “cafes” or “shops” near the “station” at the “city” in which you arrived … should you happen to be so incredibly starving after a whole two hours since you had your sandwich that you need to stuff your fat face again.
End of story.
Or you could do it the fat assed inefficient super mega cost plus stupid way.
Induced demand!
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:46 am
We can have it any way we want to have it. Its a choice to make, just like all the other choices americans make. It is what it is whether you agree with it being “right”
Caelestor Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
you don’t need a cafe car, just get a vending machine
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
gross.
thatbruce Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
@Richard: 100% against the trends in every inter-city service everywhere in the world.
You are correct in that the days of a full-fledged restaurant car are over; they take up too much dead-weight, and require a substantial investment in terms of workforce and car servicing/restocking locations to be worthwhile anymore. The same doesn’t hold true for cafe or bistro cars mentioned previously.
*) It doesn’t need to be the full car, or even a significant portion of the car. I’ve seen some which amount to a counter in one car in place of the toilets, ie, the seating capacity of the train wasn’t reduced to put it in.
*) Restocking done on the station platforms using interchangable trolleys supplied by a catering company, quicker than a typical BART turnaround.
*) Shops keep different hours from the train services. After 5pm on a Sunday at Hamburg? Good luck getting fried herring, with or without your preferred E129 food additive.
*) My own experiences suggest that an intercity service with advertised on-board food service is more likely to be full (with paying passengers even) than one without on-board food services. However, like yourself, I don’t have a citable source for this assertion.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
my earlier post is still awaiting moderation – I assume due to the number of links I posted – but what I posted was a link to all the cafe cars in all land of high speed rail – they are many -
talgo
tgv
china
thalys
acela
euorstar
ave
ice
they all have ‘em. thats right even china – and theres is really nice…
so I don’t see the part about how they are no standard around the world.
the only one that doesn’t have it is japan. But we aint in japan.ok? When california has taht many people living that close together, then you can remove the cafe, I won’t be here then.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
Japan, for the record, has more HSR ridership than all those other systems combined.
And while we’re at it, you wouldn’t want the cramped seats of some of those systems. Eurostar gives you barely more legroom than an airplane; business class there has less legroom than coach on Shinkansen. (A lot more seat width, though.)
Drunk Engineer Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Some comments with regard to restaurant service on ICE (and perhaps some of the other European operators):
German railplanners are not stuck on the notion that high-speed rail only works for trips less than 3 hrs. Spend some time on the DB trip planner, plenty of ICE routes in the 5-6hr range. As well, they run a very extensive train network, meaning that: an overall trip to/from the boonies might be fairly long, involving multiple (timed!) transfers, even if the ICE portion is quick. So, one can see a requirement for food service, given the captive audience.
But CAHSR? Short trip lengths (~2.5hrs), with automobile being the connecting transit.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:34 am
It’s clear that if you have good food service in *every* station and the trips are short you don’t need on-train service.
…But which is cheaper to provide? 24-hour food service at Visalia Station, or on-train service and you can keep Visalia Station simple?
Depends on local conditions.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
ICE food..only in FirstClass..as should be
Peter Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
I think first class gets food service at their seats. Others get food by going to the restaurant car.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
In traditional American long-distance train practice (and I think Amtrak still does this), the diner was open to all–and also was the dividing point between coaches and first-class sleeping, parlor, observation, and lounge cars, with coach passengers prohibited from going beyond the diner. Ironically, one thing Amtrak currently often does is to run sleepers at the front of the train, where passengers get to hear all sorts of locomotive noises while they attempt to sleep. There was a reason the “olde tyme” railroaders ran sleepers at the rear!
Rw Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
The sleepers were in the rear so they’d get less smoke.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:37 am
Phoebe says and Phoebe knows
That smoke and cinders spoil good clothes.
‘Tis thus a pleasure and delight
To ride upon the road of Anthracite.
Says Phoebe Snow
about to go upon a trip to Buffalo
“My gown stays white from morn till night
Upon the Road of Anthracite”
.. well she couldn’t go past Buffalo because the DL&W ran out of track in Buffalo. And it took all day to get from Hoboken to Buffalo so she had time to stay clean from morn to night.
.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:16 am
Ah, yes the dear Miss Phoebe;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Snow_(character)
I live in the wrong time. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phoebe-Snow-ditty.JPG
I wonder how a “California girl,” specifically a wonderfully beautiful and elegant lady like Miss Pheobe, could be used to promote HSR. Personally, being the nostalgia hound I am, I would just use Miss Pheobe, dress, hat, gloves and all. . .I think she’s sexy without being raw, as so much of today’s advertising is. . .
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:49 am
I don’t think those good old days were that good for most people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Alas, there is much, much truth to that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7RoAHR1S4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlXK8KsOEbQ
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Lackawanna action, featuring the Phoebe Snow streamliner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrOHCwodHu4
Steam on the DL&W:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiN_qFWo70&feature=fvw
Link on the 1949 streamliner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Snow_(passenger_train)
James Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Today’s ‘Anthracite’ is ‘green’ or ‘renewable’ electricity.
jimsf Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:41 pm
yes the diner is still the dividing line. On two trains, the empire builder and the starlight, premier trains, those two have additional lounge car “pacific parlour car” on the starlight, so that first class pax do not have to fight for space under the dome and also receive additional services such as wine and cheese tasting, and movie theatre downstairs. I believe the put the sleepers up front now because thats where the crew car is keeping the crew/club car/diner and first class pax close together. with coach pax and one or two train attendants in the rear of the train.
Occasionally consists will go out backwards when LA doesn’t get around to turning them around. ( don’t ask)
aw Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
It’s a little different on the Empire Builder because it has two sections for service to/from Seattle and Portland which join/split in Spokane. The Seattle sleepers and dining car are at the front, followed by the Seattle coaches, then the Portland coach(es?), then the lounge car, then the Portland sleeper(s?). When I rode it a couple of years ago, there wasn’t a separate first class only lounge car.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:37 am
It’s also different on the Lake Shore Limited due to the Boston- NY split; sleepers on both ends.
Locomotives – Baggage Boston – Sleeper Boston – Cafe/Lounge Boston – Coach Boston -
- Coaches NYC – Cafe/Lounge NYC – Diner (NYC) – Sleepers NYC – Baggage NYC
I counted 14 cars including locomotives. It’s one of the longer trains run by Amtrak.
ant6n Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:21 am
My best train ride ever was the ICE sprinter (express train) between Berlin and Frankfurt. We didn’t get good seats, so we had breakfast. 10 Euros for real food, on real dishes, served with real hot chocolate (and I think an orange juice?). The 3:30 hour train ride was spent eating, and it was nice.
One of the worst train rides was 11:05 on the Amtrak between Montreal and New York, where they haven’t heard of continuously wielded rails, yet (remember to sit _in between_ the axles!) And the food was garbage, the only thing warm you could get was a microwaved cheese burger, in plastic wrapping, served in a cardboard tray with a can of soda.
That’s not how you get customers.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Sigh. I remember that cut being due to NYS and Federal legislature hostility to food service. And those tracks, well, nobody has ever put any money into the Delaware & Hudson tracks.
Off topic, but of interest, courtesy of James RePass and the National Corridors Initiative:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df2/df12062010.shtml#Uncertainty
Peter Reply:
December 5th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
That’s really depressing. Walker is willfully blind about the effects of an improved transit system. In comparison, I think the lunatic Governor-elect from Ohio is stupidly blind. The whole “trains are 19th century things” line kind of made me want to go smash my head in.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:48 am
Just going for the money ~ the former Voinovich / Taft director of the Ohio DoT went on to work as VP as an Asphalt lobbying group, and is coming back to take over again.
Both Walker and Kasich conned money out of the road lobby by lying to them about rediverting the rail money into roads.
I heard a lot of black people ride Amtrak. I ride Amtrak but I’m not black. Interesting.
Spokker Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Oh, the reason I mentioned it is because I overheard the term “blacktrak” used recently and didn’t really understand the connection. Is the “black people ride Amtrak” thing more prevalent outside of Southern California?
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:51 am
Ive never heard that phrase. My experience has been that there is no typical amtrak passenger at all. People from all over the country and all over the world ride and not any group any more than any other. What the pax seems to have in common is that they all really seem to like taking the train. Thats why the “people don’t ride trains” argument strikes me as so weird. I would have been tempted to believe that it wasn’t popular if I hadn’t seen it first hand.
All the pax like –
that its so simple
no tsa
no exchange fees
liberal exchange and refund policy
comfort
liberal baggage policy
on board services
friendly helpful staff ( Im not making that up- thats what they say)
gorgeous scenery
meeting new people
those are the things I hear daily. It makes me think, just how much greater american rail travel could be with more investment, equipment, and speed.
The anti rail arguments are flat out lies. People are catching on.
Spokker Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 1:04 am
I find that long distance trains carry a lot of seniors in sleepers. I wouldn’t be surprised if coach has a significant share of people from smaller cities without good access to air travel.
On the Pacific Surfliner I see a lot of college aged people with backpacks. You’ll also see commuter spillover from Metrolink.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:20 am
Another friend of mine rod Amtrak’s Cardinal to visit some relatives in Kentucky some years back, and he observed the train had a lot of local travelers on it in West Virginia. This is an area that is still a little short in highway access (New River Gorge, which looks a lot like the Feather River but with more trees), and the travelers included at least one grandmother going to visit her grandchildren in Charleston. This was and is on a triweekly train, so she was likely looking at a trip and stay of several days.
The old days and old ways haven’t quite gone away yet, and we will need them again.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
On my Coast Starlight train the last two days it was mostly seniors in the sleepers, although there was at least one family of four and a few other single men my age with their own roomettes. The Pacific Parlour Car was left behind in Seattle for maintenance issues, otherwise I’d have gotten a better sense of it.
The coach cars seemed to have folks from the smaller cities without access that you mentioned – lots of people getting on at the Portland-Eugene stops, a lot of whom were headed to Klamath Falls.
Lots of college students and people headed to Sacramento on state business on the Capitol Corridor trips I’ve taken.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:30 am
“People catchin on” is our ray of hope against the likes of Kasich (Ohio) and Walker (Wisconsin).
I just hope we have the time!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:27 am
Blacktrak? I never heard that one before now. Sounds like some racist who thinks cars are for “real Americans.” Where did you hear this, on talk radio or something?
Spokker Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 12:05 am
I overheard it at school.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:47 am
I’ve heard that the trains in the South have a very black ridership. I wouldn’t know, though. In the Northeast, the ridership has the same color as the rest of the population.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Urban trains in the south have that rep ~ eg, MARTA is called Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta by some of the great unwashed, and when I was in Atlanta for the economist’s conference last January, it seemed to be African American and College Student Transport.
Arthur Dent Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
NY Times article on riding black on Amtrak. It’s uncommon.
Spokker Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 12:08 am
Interesting article. Perhaps he’s just an unpleasant person like I am. People rarely sit next to me or talk to me in daily life. When I’m with my girlfriend, however, she always has people interacting with her. From old ladies to extra helpful males at a store, people seem to instantly love her.
What she says is that when she’s by herself even more people talk to her! Haha. I guess I am scaring some people away.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
It’s my understanding that a lot of people of color rode the Illinois Central from about 1910 into the 1960s. Much of this was in connection with the “Great Black Migration,” in which many black people went north to seek better opportunities. The IC is one of the few major railroads to be oriented North-South, its principle main stem running from Chicago to New Orleans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_American)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Central_Railroad
Although the IC was famous for running steam into early 1960, it was also a diesel pioneer. One of its early streamliners was the Green Diamond, in many ways a close cousin to the early Union Pacific City-series streamliners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Diamond
IC employees called the Green Diamond “the Tomato Worm” for its green color, including its trucks.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:40 am
Also an electric pioneer, though only for the suburban Chicago lines…
ant6n Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:01 am
NYC-Montreal by bus is black people, immigrants and students. NYC-Montreal by Amtrak is old white people and students. I am a Student.
talgo
tgv
oh look china too
china
thalys
acela
eurostar
eurostar
ave
ICE
Rachel on hsr why I love her.
Which part of this initial segment would be the test track? How much length do they need? between fno-hnf or hnf-coc or the whole thing?
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
test track
So, with the initial construction chosen, does this mean that fresno gets to start hinking about what kind of station they want to build? And, is hsr going to build stations and pay in full, or are cities going to build their own station per what they want. Luckily for hsr, SF is paying for the station here ( except the train box0
I think chsra should offer to build a stanard basic station and cities along the route should have to pay for any additional bells and whistles they want such as signature architecture.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
This is from the staff memo as to what is in the current budget:
A basic High Speed Rail (HSR) station in Fresno (including 2 tracks into and out of the
station) which can be used by Amtrak in case of Independent Utility.
I don’t know what this means exactly, except that building out the station in Fresno may be lower on the priority list than extending the system up to Merced.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
All the intermediate stations ( sf/sj/la/sd excepted) should really be very basic. ticketing area, covered platform,basic parking, etc. All the extra stuff, retail, services, additional parking,signature architecture, should be up to the cities to pay for.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
You may get your wish.
Brandi Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
I think all the stations should have room for retail. This retail space will command a decent rent and thus additional revenue. All the Taiwan stations had this and it wad pretty popular. Every one had like a starbucks, mcdonalds, newsstand, etc. Also eliminated the need for a cafe car. There was vending machines and a food cart on the train. Very similar to the airport/airline model. I think the Taiwan model is a good one to follow.
Here’s an interesting conversation between fno and chsra concerning station design. They want to leave design up to the locals, and some of the locals want to use a historic queen anne design. who knew!
James Fujita Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
The “Queen Anne” thing appears to be a side-effect of the existing (currently converted to other uses) train station being Queen Anne in design. Of course, the existing station is one story high and not really very useful from the point of view of building an elevated train line. That could also be a reaction to the elevated aspect of the line, which some people are opposed to.
Personally, I think Fresno deserves a station as nice and modern as what Anaheim’s building for themselves. Or some of the Shinkansen, hotel and shopping mall stations they have in Japan. But of course, I don’t live in Fresno.
Still, Queen Anne would not translate very well to a large scale.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
yeh it wouldn’t seem to fit. But when it comes to stations/ station design I’m one who believes in deferring to what the locals want. Its their city, their neighborhood, let em fix it up the way they like so long as its functional. Most cities now already have downtown plans in the works and should be allowed to modify hsr stations to fit nicely within those plans.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
I interpret “Queen Anne” as being very, very Victorian, and it was scaled up into a very large station (biggest in the world at the time, incidently)–Broad Street Station, Philadelphia, Pa., on (what else) the Pennsylvania Railroad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Street_Station_(Philadelphia)
http://www.philadelphiabuildings.org/pab/app/image_gallery.cfm?RecordId=FDBD8E65-1F94-43FB-8DE82E896C62A71A
I’ll let others decide if the translation was successful or not; I like Victorian stuff myself, but I’m also a steam fan, so take my comments with a bit of salt.
From near the same time period, the Reading Terminal in the same city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_Terminal
James Fujita Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Broad Street looks like a typical office tower with a funny hat on top. Fresno’s version of Queen Anne is low to the ground, completely inappropriate for HSR.
Tokyo Station started out as an old-style brick building, but it was always several stories tall, and large enough to fit the Shinkansen. And even then, it was rebuilt and redesigned to the point where many people who travel through it probably aren’t aware of the heritage.
I believe in local control, but there needs to be some parameters to make sure that the structure fits the need.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:42 am
I like most of Victorian architecture, but there’s a huge variety of it. I particularly like the late-Victorian tendency toward “covered trainshed” designs.
Here’s a perfect example of what I would hope to have in cali. Very nice choices These show the check in/ticket procdures, boarding, classes, amenities etc in a nice format.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
so sf -la (2:25) is comparable to london paris
I find pricing starting at 62.00 standard(coach), 170 standard premier(business), and 412.00 business premier (first)
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
france has 4 classes, actually 2 classes but 4 ticket types, and on paris – lyon again similar to la-sf, 80,.00 2nd, 132.002nd 170.00premier (1st) 199.00premier(1st)
champagne
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
The ticket types are refundable versus nonrefundable. SNCF is doing this as part of its general yield management strategy of trying to extract from each customer the maximum amount they can afford to pay.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
which makes sense n’est ce pas? Amtrak does the same thing. As do the airlines I think.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
No, Amtrak has just one ticket class. Airlines have a lot of different ticket classes, which is part of why everyone hates them. Even I eventually give up on finding the cheapest available ticket, and my last name is Levy.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Amtrak has fare buckets for rail fares (coach) and fare buckets for “accomodation charge” which is the business class upgrade you find on acela or surfliner, and the sleeper accom on LD trains.
All coach tickets have the same refund and exch policy, all accom charges are subject to 7 day adv. canel for refund, but exh value is granted for a year with no penalty. All refunds have 10percent refund fee across the board. With exceptions for medical/death (documented)
In addtion
senior 15%
disabled 15%
active duty military 15%
membership discounts 3 day apr
national assoc. rail pax
AAA
Internation Student (ISIIC)
STudent Advantage tm
In the ccjpa fares are set
Surfliners have two fares, peak travel periods (summer holiday) and non peak
SJQs are priced like LD trains with 5 buckets. D,C,B,A,Y
There are plans to ad business class to ccjpa once more equip is avail.
And so you know, on all cali trains, even the “under two hour” ccjpa trips, if you dared to try to remove the cafe car, you’d have a riot.
The public is very vociferous when it comes to that care car. EVerything in there is a direct result of california pax insistance and caltrans bends over backwords to keep them happy.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Wait… isn’t the NEC basically on just one fare class, which depends only on whether you book in advance or not?
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
no NEC has several types.
you have the usual fare buckets on the regional trains d/c/b/a/y etc based on availability, and you also have coach and business.
On acela, you have business and first. also with fare buckets based on demand.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
ten percent off if you can prove you are a AAA member. And then there’s long distance trains that won’t carry passengers between stations on the NEC. Jim! people can get the dining car by booking Alexandria VA to NY, instead of WAS to NYP. It will take longer but they’d get a dining car…
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
no discounts tho on acela – not even senior
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Why does Amtrak give AAA discounts?
jimsf Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 5:01 am
Marketing.
jim Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 6:06 am
And then there’s long distance trains that won’t carry passengers between stations on the NEC. Jim! people can get the dining car by booking Alexandria VA to NY, instead of WAS to NYP. It will take longer but they’d get a dining car…
Actually, northbound you can’t book ALX-NYP on any train with a dining car. Regionals, the Carolinian and Palmetto only. Southbound, though, you can book NYP-ALX on any train but the Cardinal. The LD trains are more expensive, though, presumably to discourage short distance riders.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
But no dining car, observation car, disco lounge, spa, aromatherapy/massage emporium or checked baggage. It’s Acela through the Chunnel. The meal served at your seat comes out of a microwave or a sous vide vat.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
There is a cafe car on the eurostar though and yes, at seat meals in first. Thats all im asking for. I don’t expect full sit down table service and I live without aromatherapy but I do think a disco, or swank ultra lounge would be nice addition for the hollywood/sf set. I mean why not have some fun for god’s sake. All this recessionista fuddy duddiness, and we can’t do this and we can’t do that, adn what about the debt and what about the children, Im so over it. Lets party people! Its time again.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
I have ridden Acela and Eurostar first class and each had a nice meal with wine included in the price so yes I hope CAHSR has an Acela style to it..And Jims right the market LA-SF will have plenty of people more than willing to purchase first class
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:44 am
I do think wine is not necessary for the US market (unlike the European market — the French consider wine *essential*). But alcohol tends to make a profit, so it should probably be sold.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:45 am
While they’re at it, they should sell other dangerous recreational drugs, but caffeine is the only legal one which doesn’t pose a secondhand smoke hazard. :-)
OT
We’ve posted the report issued by the California High Speed Rail Authority’s Peer Review group on our site:
http://www.calhsr.com/funding/california-high-speed-rail-peer-review-committee-releases-critical-report/
In speaking of subsidies, if the streetcar/inter-urban systems in Los Angeles were subsidized or taken over by the city government, they would have existed today. I think subsidies for clean transportation is a good thing, but I do not think that subsidiares for highways and freeways are good as they are encouraging urban sprawl, air/water pollution, deforestation, and concentration of poverty in the the urban areas. Look at the mushrooming of houses that appeared near the toll roads (that cut through hills) that were built in Orange and San Diego Counties. Seeing urban sprawl on Google Earth disgust me which is why alternatives like high-speed rail is needed.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
If the various freeways hadn’t been subsidized beginning in the 1920s (most were built by gas tax money collected from local urban roads, which were ineligible for gas tax funding), the streetcar/interurban systems in Los Angeles wouldn’t even need to be subsidized or taken over.
Besides which, New York did take over the streetcar system, and then dismantled it and replaced it with buses.
synonymouse Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
The municipalities were brainwashed by the highway interests much as were the private entrpreneurs. Thus in San Francisco the only way some few streetcar lines survived was because the Twin Peaks Tunnel was deemed too narrow for buses. That, plus the City’s being able to obtain PCC’s from St. Louis in a lease-purchase deal that bypassed the city charter when the union finally gave in on 2 man operation.
Tunnels, base tunnels in particular, are a game changer, a fact totally lost to the PB camp followers on this site.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
what do base tunnels have to do with muni streetcars
synonymouse Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Optimum, ideal, permanent capital improvements guarantee survivability and relevance over the long term. Meandering detours still stuck with gradients too steep for freight sufficed in the rr-centric 19th century but are not adequately competitive with the automobile and the airplane. To get people out of their cars you have to blow them away with your best shot, not your default.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
for the gazillionith time. Running passenger trains to places where there are passengers is optimal.
Donk Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
You hear about the new HSR line being planned in Brazil? It is going to be a brazillion miles long…
(Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk)
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
He likes base tunnels.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
..preoccupation comes from lack of occupation….
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:46 am
The Twin Peaks tunnel is actually a sort of base tunnel?
What a terrific dialog!
Really!
Thanks to all, esp. JimSF and D.P, for a thoughtful, respectful conversation; all in all supportive of the obvious solution to many, many national challenges – environment, fuel efficiency, jobs, all pressing problems. Exceptionally straight thinking.
I live in MA and support HSR everywhere.
When my brothers in Chicago land, my sisters in CA, my friends in FL experience even pokey Acela speeds, they will never give it up and the cheapskate, “never make an investment that pays back to the people”, crowd wil be shamed into oblivion.
At least I can dream.
Keep it up, you good rail folk.
Thanks!
TGV Duplex 545 seats, you can run two together. 1090 seats. 1090 seats departing SF every 15 minutes. Thats 360 potential departures in a 24 hour period or 392,400 pax departing per day. With cafe car access. If we get to the point where that isn’t enough. Then remove the cafe from one of the trainsets per double consist.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
The TGV Duplex is an obsolete trainset. It’s limited to 200 mph, its acceleration is shit, and Alstom has already moved on to the AGV.
Double consists are the first thing that should be eliminated in California. There’s no reason at all to run them instead of long 400-meter trains, and they have less space.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Well then we should get whatever the new version of bi level train is.
and if you haven’t seen this its too funny.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
I actually posted that some time back, one of the first things in my links collection over the last 6 months or year or whatever; fun to see what the future used to be!
M-G-M’s animation unit made several humorous “future” shorts in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and one was on cars of the future that would have run on those roads of the future:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bBpDNRP5qQ
An automotive builders’s group sponsored this one in the late 1950s (two parts):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZNtlp2_1WA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr0EUw46kWs&NR=1&feature=fvwp
To be continued:
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
GM Motorama look at the future:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_ccAf82RQ8
GM again, this time in 1939; two parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74cO9X4NMb4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7dT2HId-c
Alon Levy Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 8:42 am
The new version is exclusively single-level. There are currently no bilevel high-speed EMUs anywhere. Richard thinks that the actual train used will be so custom-made that they might as well press the vendors to develop one to maximize capacity; I don’t.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:47 am
Heck, how tall are the clearances in California? Can you get a triple-level train and REALLY maximize clearances? :-) Or is it just too unstable?
While I’m waiting on customer service for printer parts (“All of our customer specialists are currently helping other customers, your current wait time is. . .”–grrrr!), I’m fooling around with YouTube.
Nostalgia special for Jim SF, who said he liked early streamliners, including the steam variations:
Pennsylvania Railroad T-1 Duplex locomotives, with two engine sets to reduce mechanical mass in rods by dividing the power. These engines were amazingly fast (supposedly they hit into the 140 mph range in Indiana when they were on a late train, but this was unofficial to say the least), but they were also slippery for men who were not the best runners, and notoriously heavy on maintenance. Film location appears to be St. Louis, Mo.; color reproduction is not the best, but it does show the engines’ overall dark green color, with black running gear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PARLMJB5M
Various early streamliners, steam and diesel, on the NYC, B&O, and SP, all of the footage looking to be from the prewar era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg1NGzj0M7U&NR=1
The 20th Century again; some of this footage has been seen here before, but other material, including some interior shots and the hand-off at Harmon to an electric locomotive to enter Grand Central Terminal, is new to me (and Jim SF); enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae3-oayoGA8&feature=channel
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
More footage, now in California, the Santa Fe’s Super Chief (promotional film, equipment looks like the 1951 edition, which included newer and older cars); why did we throw this away? On the other hand, I have to say it’s a good thing the racial segregation that was then is mostly gone (although not all the prejudice is, I’m afraid that will always be with us, like greed), and also that smoking isn’t quite as prevelant as it was then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNyAQir_dfo&feature=channel
A little silver slipper of a train–Burlington’s Pioneer Zephyr, now preserved in Chicago’s Museum of Science and Industry, on a record-setting test run in 1934:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHe0YSciQao
A promotion for a commercial railfan video, featuring California operations from some years ago, a bit dated but still spectacular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Mg81uvfm0
YesonHSR Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Love the Superchief!!!! Yes I dont understand why Americans of that time just stopped riding these wonderful service trains..guess the new TWAs connnies were more fashionable at the time and yes faster. thou this was a first class pullman train and for its time expensive to ride.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
good lord those eyebrows!
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
omg – in the supercheif video the guy at 4:00 looks like John Boehner. ugh! Quick someone send him back in time.
Holy cow you’ve got to be kidding look at this…. whats so weird is that this concept was shown in one of those old american 1940s cartoons about “transportation of the future” you know the ones that had our freeways in the desert running through climate controlled glass tubes…
well teh chinese are actually doing this bus thing that was in the old cartoon.!! crazy.
jimsf Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
this I mean.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Something like that was here before; some other footage is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9loObT3zCI&feature=related
And this is even wilder–a bus that essentially leaps onto a moving train (at least that’s how I would word it to catch your eyeballs, it actually just rolls on), but it is still fascinating, even if I think it is crazy (and I’m really not trying to insult the fellow who suggested something like this a while back, it just shows he’s not alone):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Noc_2CWFjU&feature=related
I personally don’t think much of this. I can only imagine some of the G-forces involved, not to mention the difficulty of a smooth transition from the roof of the train to that loading-unloading facility, plus problems in winter weather with ice storms (imagine that “bus” sliding off the end of the transfer facility and landing on the departing train or the track), but wouldn’t we have egg on our faces if the Chinese actually got this to work?
Meanwhile, back in the world of grownups, with feet on the ground, the Peer Review committee just published a scathing report that basically supports each and every red flag raised so far by the opposition. The only thing remotely like ‘support’ for the CHSRA is defense of the short staff – but the report makes clear that the priorities for any new headcount (before rushing to turn shovels), needs to be urgently focused on getting the basics right – the ridership forecast, the business model, the business plan, a realistic financing plan, and realistic risk planning.
If the CHSRA thinks they’re getting more headcount for ‘outreach’, for propaganda spinning, or for engineers to design Fresno’s 60 foot ariels to nowhere on the cheap, hopefully this makes clear that THAT will not be happening. Perhaps the Peer Review report is a sign that some grownups have finally shown up.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
So happy an impartial, disinterested, unbiased onlooker could drop in with an impartial, disinterested, unbiased evaluation, as opposed to the predictable spin that would be expected from various advocacy camps.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Peninsula, you might be a little mad with Bruce just now, but I think you might want to take a look at his own site. He’s an economist, and chances are, if you are like me, you don’t think much of economists (too many of them thought we were doing so well we had banished recessions, look where we are now), but Bruce has what I think are interesting comments. I also would suggest you take a look at some of his linked sites as well, such as Progressive Blue, Streetsblog, and Real World Economics Review. You likely will not agree with everything there (and I don’t), you may even agree with nothing there, but it is always a good idea to see what the opposition is up to.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Who’s the Peer Review Committee? Is it an actual peer review in the traditional senses of refereeing and expert consensus, or a bunch of people who got together and branded themselves as peer review?
Arthur Dent Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
The Peer Review group is headed by Will Kempton and is full of HSR advocates. It’s a formal, legislatively mandated committee whose members are appointed by the Gov, Senate, Treasurer, Controller, etc. Their purpose is to review the HSRA’s plans as part of the oversights inserted into AB 3034 and voted on in Prop 1A.
Good question – better to know who these guys are before calling them a bunch of deniers because they’re critical.
At some level this vindicates those people who see the benefits of HSR and want it, but not at any cost.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
I don’t know if it vindicates anything – the report looks completely neutral to me. The people are neutral in expertise (i.e. nobody whose word I’d take over anything, but also enough people with real knowledge that I wouldn’t dismiss what they say out of hand); the report’s language is neutral, raising concerns with the business plan but stopping well short of claiming the costs and benefits are fraudulent or fantastic.
synonymouse Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Have they really taken up the key issue here, nalely which version of hsr will come closest to profitability, ie. require the least amount of ongoing subsidy. It is a very difficult question to examine, but for certain PB’s answer is not to be taken as holy writ. PB is hopelessly unobjective and compromised.
Which approach is likely to be the most successful: a gold-plated TEE mostly duplicating the ancient UP route or a maglev on rails on a new alignment? Who has the political nerve to question the wisdom of essentially a state welfare project for the San Joaquin Valley? Is this the most effective form of charity for the poorest part of the state?
I find myself once again in my usual minority of one in asserting that this thing is far from a done deal, despite all of PB’s horses and all of PB’s men. Schwarzie is today laying down the parameters and the gauntlet of the upcoming budget wars. Jerry will have to deal with the conflict of his core welfare constituency vs. PB. $25 billion is likely just the ante in this game. I’ll bet on the welfare advocates prevailing.
Nadia Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
You can read about them here: http://www.calhsr.com/funding/california-high-speed-rail-peer-review-committee-releases-critical-report/
This is the Independent Peer Review committee that was required in Prop 1A – they’re appointed.
Will Kempton is on it – along with 5 others. I’m really surprised Robert didn’t do an article on the report…
Nadia Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Here’s some bio info on a few of the members:
http://www.calhsr.com/peer-review/independent-peer-review-committee/
note it was current as of Oct 11th 2010 – so apparently we’ve had a few additions…
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Surely I can take a few days to pore it over and make an informed comment on it?
Nadia Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Sure, take as much time as you need! ;-)
It was dated as of Nov 18th, so I just assumed you got it sooner.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 8:07 am
Nope, only got it over the weekend. My sources are slacking!
Alon Levy Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Fair enough. Two comments, in increasing order of seriousness:
1. It’s funny how the main criticism of the HSRA is the lack of in-house expertise and experience in constructing HSR (which is partly echoed in the report, in the part talking about “inadequate staffing”) when the positions on the peer review committee dedicated to people with foreign experience are still open. At least they have Thompson.
2. Much of the report looks like standard boilerplate: the project may have cost overruns, the extra funding may not materialize, the HSRA needs to choose whether the trains will be operated privately or publicly, etc. The part I’d find most interesting is the ridership estimate, and there they just say the HSRA should work together with the Berkeley ITS team. It’s weird that a peer review would spend so little time on the fundamental assumption of the project.
jim Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 7:40 am
1. Lack of in-house expertise. Well, d’uh. Everyone has made that criticism. Perhaps the new administration will do something about it.
2. Business model, funding strategy, risk management strategy and ROW alignment are all connected and all have to be solved together. The alignment can’t be finalized until all segments’ NEPA/CEQA process is done. An “essentially private” business model can’t be adopted until there’s an alignment that prospective bidders can consider. Whether an essentially private model is desirable depends on the extent to which public funding is available. Which business model is adopted affects the incidence of risk. You only manage the risks that fall on you. There are events out of the Authority’s control which affect the choice of business model. If Desert Express actually breaks ground, an “infrastructure only” model becomes more attractive since there’d be the prospect of access fees from the operator of LA-SF and from Desert Express.
3. Demand forecasting and demand guarantee issues only become relevant for particular choices of business model. For several, where demand risk is placed on the operator, it doesn’t matter what the Authority forecasts; the operators bidding will make their own, closely held, forecasts which will inform their bidding strategy.
4. The technical, safety and seismic risks issue, again, is dependent on final alignment, which depends on NEPA/CEQA.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Those are and always have been dependent upon maximzing PBQD’s bottom line. not upon any operating plan or upon cost or risk minimization. (Minimization! Hah!). Those are all Somebody Else’s (ie yours, you tax paying suckers) Problems.
Nathanael Reply:
December 8th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Um, no. Surely PBQD’s bottom line would be maximized by trying to construct a dangerously insane Grapevine tunnel and sucking up money on it until it failed? But the CHSRA hired competent engineers who said it verged on the impossible, and chose an alignment with geotechnical sense.
Only the “microlevel” designs, stations and types of bridges and that stuff are looking like “concrete pourers mecca”, not the alignment choices.
jim Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 8:07 am
I probably sounded too negative.
The report does two important things. (1) It makes clear, up front, how dependent CHSRA is on PB. PB knows from pouring concrete. (2) It makes clear that the big decision that the board has to make is the choice of business model.
Florida, by the way, has chosen its model. It’s going to build the infrastructure then have operators bid on the right to operate trains across it for, IIRC, twenty years. The operators will buy rolling stock, set schedules and fares, maintain the infrastructure and pocket the difference between revenue and costs.
There’s also the curious incident of the dog in the night. If, as some people maintain, a usable segment requires the existence of trains, then several of these business models are ruled out. But the peer review committee discussed them as though they were perfectly legitimate
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Almost as if they used the obscure alternative definition of “usable” as “able to be used for”.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 7th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Oddly enough, when going through the CARRD site to the report itself, calling it a “scathing” report is clearly a biased reading by someone who assumes the worst of the project at the outset so that the bulk of the report, which reflects clear pitfalls to be avoided, are instead read as accusations of mistakes to be corrected.
The report is quite correct that the Authority should decide on business model, and pragmatically, with the new Governor’s administration coming in, they should decide on business model in consultation with the new administration.
The report does omit composite business models: for example, an infrastructure authority and a service concessionaire, who would own trains for the establishment service level in the service concession and franchise out the operation together with acquisition of trains for increases in service.
While on the subject of Bruce’s site, I was looking at this linked item, interesting to see the money pattern I’ve been seeing repeated again.
Bruce’s place:
http://midnight-populist.blogspot.com/
And the cost of roads in Wisconsin:
http://milwaukeerising.net/wordpress/2010/12/06/who-pays-for-roads/
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
More on Wisconsin:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/111361754.html
An echo from the past, linked from Railway Preservation News:
http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/article/20101205/LIFESTYLE/12050319
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 6th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Also linked through RyPN, a special holiday excursion in Oregon, with a Southern Pacific locomotive that ran there and in California, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgZ3sAQB9_4
Same service, different weather, 2008:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVfIzsyUNE0&feature=fvwk