DesertXpress President Retires
Late last week, we learned that Tom Stone, who has led the DesertXpress HSR project to link SoCal to Las Vegas for 9 years, has retired:
Tom Stone, president and a member of the board of directors, has worked on the project for nine years.
The company is awaiting a final environmental impact statement and records of decision on the project from the Federal Railroad Administration to begin engineering the route. Construction is expected to start next year.
Stone’s departure from the company was noted on the DesertXpress website.
“DesertXpress and its partners express our gratitude and appreciation for the nine years of dedication that Dr. Tom Stone has provided to the project serving as president and member of the board,” the site said. “His commitment, leadership and expertise has established a strong foundation setting the stage for a groundbreaking next year on the first dedicated high-speed rail project in America. We wish Tom and his family all the best in his deserved retirement.”
There was no explanation beyond this, and it’s unclear whether Tom Stone had always planned to retire at the end of 2010, just as construction was about to begin, or whether he was somehow forced out – although there’s no reason we know of to believe it was the latter.
Of course, the bigger question – one that we still don’t have an answer to – is how the $5 billion project will be funded. Stone’s departure will hopefully not adversely affect the search for financing or the project as a whole. While there is still some debate over whether maglev is the better choice for the SoCal to Las Vegas route, as far as I am concerned DesertXpress ought to go forward and be constructed.
By the end of 2011, certainly by 2012, California could see two HSR projects under construction: one from Fresno to Bakersfield and another from Vegas to Victorville. The gap between the two – essentially the Bakersfield-Palmdale segment over the Tehachapi Pass, a crucial gap in California’s current passenger rail system – would be all that separates the two routes. It could create a lot of momentum to fund the closure of that gap with HSR infrastructure, a gap that is one of the most difficult engineering tasks our project faces. And from there, further demand would be generated to bring the HSR trains down from Palmdale to LA Union Station, and extend west from Fresno through the Pacheco Pass to the Bay Area.
In other words, as we see segments of both HSR project get built, momentum will be generated to complete the California-Nevada HSR system.
That goes back to a meeting RailPAC and NARP convened in Los Angeles in April, where Tom Stone gave an excellent presentation on the DesertXpress project. At that meeting, Ryan Stern of NARP and Californians For High Speed Rail cited the first segment of LA’s Metro Rail subway, from MacArthur Park to Union Station, which opened in 1993. That segment wasn’t the most usable thing in the world, but it was the start of what has now become a heavily-used and by all accounts successful rail line that is now on the verge of being extended to Westwood and, eventually, Santa Monica.
All you need is just one segment. Even if it just connects Fresno to Bakersfield. Once Californians see tracks laid, they will clamor for the full system from SF to LA, with extensions to Sacramento, San Diego, and Anaheim, to be completed, and for DesertXpress to be connected to the system at Palmdale.
While the NIMBYs and HSR deniers may have thought that 2010 was their year, they are ending it on the verge of total defeat. Once construction begins, even on a segment, HSR becomes real, and it becomes unstoppable.
Is there a lightweight diesel DMU that could operate over the upgraded valley section and on the LVS section? at say, 125mph, Something fast, but that wouldn’t be as heavy as a diesel loco? Soemthing that could be worked into the san joaquin service fleet. to take advantage of both routes in the interim while we wait for full hsr operation.
James Fujita Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Britain does diesel, although they’ve also been making the switch to higher speeds and electrification. Would any of their diesels work?
Jon Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Try British Rail Class 220 or 221.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Yeah, those are route availability 2 and 4, which implies under 22.5 tons/axle (less than or equal to 20.3 tonnes per axle). Where the Talgo diesels get their lower weight with light weight transmission (XXI), or by adding a separate generator car to an electric locomotive (250 hybrid), the 220 gets its light weight by putting the generator in the power car with the passengers carriages having drive axles like an EMU.
So there’s three different ways to get diesel speeds of 125mph or higher (much higher for the XXI and 250 Hybrid) and axle loading down under 22.5 tons/axle.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Diesel locomotives don’t have to be as heavy as the standard Amtrak-California locomotives ~ the Talgo XXI was a 150mph diesel that was substantially lighter than a US 33ton/axle diesel prime mover.
And the Talgo 250 (corporate pdf) hybrid is an electric push-pull 250 with diesel power generator cars added to run out from under the wires ~ its a 66 tonne (~73ton) locomotive and four axles so under 17 tonne/axle (<18.2ton/axle), compared to the 130ton EMD 59PH used by both Metrolink and Amtrak.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 5:50 pm
wow I love how they have a whole catalogue! Ilove their stuff. ( but we are not getting that god awful ugly flat nosed thing that looks like a hoover vacuum cleaner)
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Talgo has been around a while, too. Interesingly, the first trainset for Talgo was actually built under contract at American Car & Foundry.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RZPhx0Ai56k/Skajr8TyJ-I/AAAAAAAAARc/q0nFFBtqrBY/s1600-h/1949+Talgo+Train+ACF.jpg
Other items, in this case from “Life” magazine:
http://www.life.com/image/50520679
http://www.life.com/image/50520680
To be continued:
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Amazing! It looks like that original American trainset (or an early copy) has survived!
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/oldagetraveller/1/1231621380/vilanova-railway-museum-original-talgo.jpg/tpod.html
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/oldagetraveller/1/1231621380/vilanova-railway-museum-original-talgo-interi.jpg/tpod.html
Let’s see what else is there:
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/oldagetraveller/1/1231621380/vilanova-railway-museum-.jpg/tpod.html
Got to continue at here (program only lets you post three links or less without having to wait for moderation):
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:15 pm
love that first one.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:21 pm
Photo source:
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=talgo+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=OWkRTcnQPIH_8AbsrJG8Dg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CB4QsAQwAA&biw=775&bih=279
Other photos from above:
http://www.life.com/image/50520677
http://badlyknownspain.blogspot.com/2008/01/talgo-best-spanish-technology-for.html
Have fun.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Man, this can be addictive. . .
http://world.nycsubway.org/world/es/railmuseum.html
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?offset=0&where=search|-2|-2|-2||-2|talgo|15|1||||||||-2|-2||-2|-2|||15|-2|-2||||||1||1||||&newdisplay=5
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Corrected link:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Darn! Still not right! Best just tell you to go to Railpictures.net and search under “Talgo.”
BruceMcF Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 1:27 am
Between the duck billed platypus Spanish train and the kitty cat Japanese train, I prefer the kitty cat train.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 10:52 pm
Since nobody mentions it, the ICE-TD might be interesting, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD
But it’s probably not fast enough (200 Km/h).
BruceMcF Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 1:33 am
Even slower when the axles break.
But regarding the original suggestion for an interim diesel that can go 125mph, that’s ~200km/h. The Talgo 250 is named for 250km/h, or ~155mph.
Isaac Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:19 pm
The speed of the Talgo 250 hybrid in diesel mode is still a bit of a question mark.
The 250 kph/155 mph value is from the train going in 25,000 volts AC, where it can put an output of 4,800 kW in total. In diesel mode, its two technical cars only give 3,600 kW, so it could go slower.
The only reference that I’ve found in the internet is one talking of 180 kph (about 110 mph) in Galicia, but I’m not sure if this speed is limited by the train itself or the old track section:
Article in Spanish.
Google translation. (Forget the headline, not talking about very big trees, LOL).
I suppose we’ll figure out in 2012, when they’ll start to run.
So, if DesertExpress moves forward on the timeline expected, do you think this pushes to try to find a way to connect Bakersfield to Palmdale sooner? I realize that’s a very expensive corridor, but if they can envision a tie-in between Palmdale and Victorville, that would be another great incentive for people to get on HSR. The drive to Vegas from anywhere is ridiculous and always takes longer than anticipated.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:40 pm
If they could promise that in case the CAHSR did not proceed, they would extend to the Mojave junction and run trains to Fresno as well as to Palmdale to meet the Metrolink … why, there’s your intercity independent utility for the Bakersfield / Palmdale corridor, without having to bulk up to cater to 33ton/axle locomotives.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:07 am
Possibly, yes. My overall point is once you see segments built, the public quite rightly says “well let’s close those gaps!”
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:09 am
Or they say, “Cut your losses.” and vote the opposite political party next time.
However, if pay as you go (hell, design as you go) is good enough for Interstate Highways then I’m in.
So maglev for DesertXpress is still on the table? With all those insane capital costs? Why not just do regular HSR that’s compatible with CA HSR?
James Fujita Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 5:13 pm
maglev is still being considered for the Vegas route. It was never considered (to my knowledge) for DesertXpress.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:08 am
Maglev is separate from DesertXpress. It’s still technically “on the table” but the capital costs remain enormous and ensure it’s not getting built anytime soon.
From what I’ve heard, DesertXpress officials, along with Las Vegas Monorail officials, visited China this past summer over possible financing, can’t say it’s a big surprise. However, I haven’t heard anything since. They used to be very open about what they were doing until they got slammed by the Las Vegas press this past year for supposedly building a “train to nowhere.” Now, it’s practically impossible to get a quote or even email response from DXE officials.
James Fujita Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 5:25 pm
It’s a shame that the Vegas press has been cheerleading for maglev while slamming DesertXpress, because DesertXpress stands a better chance of actually happening.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:06 pm
The utter lack of common sense is astounding. how can a fast train that takes californian’s simply, effortlessly, in utmost comfort, at high speed from the heart of southern california, ( well if not heart, then somewhere near the breast implants anyway) to smack in the middle of Vegas just minutes from the strip, or right onto the strip if they wanted, be a bad thing? Bad for whom is I guess the real question. But normal people who live in real life and who have functioning brain cells can see the obvious potential.
I never thought I’d see the day but in my lifetime this country has gone from being the world’s shining beacon of progress, to becoming, what’s the word I’m looking for. ineffective? Its like the country has ED and needs one of those pills.
ITs a damn train. its not difficult to understand. Its not revolutionary. No one needs a space suit. There’s no organ transplanting involved or nuclear waste or baby seals.
I’ll never get over living through this part of our history. Its just bizarre.
Walter Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:02 pm
I’m with you. If I was governor, it would be “Complete the Danged Tracks.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0lwusMxiHc
I like the analogy to the Red Line subway in LA. However, did Mr. Stern also mention that cost overruns, a sinkhole in Hollywood, and a methane gas explosion in the Fairfax district all combined to cause a huge PR nightmare that turned public opinion away from the project, and then our our good friend Zev Yaroslovsky shut down the project for the next 10 years and now the project is still unfinished? This would be equivalent to the the CAHSR system being built from San Francisco to Fresno and sitting unfinished until 2040.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:09 pm
Well, that sort of thing happens. It took longer to build a rail tunnel across Baltimore than it did to build the Transcontinental Railroad (really, trains had to divert far to the west to go from south of Baltimore to north of Baltimore).
The system would be useful even if half-finished.
Hopefully this will knock some sense into the project, and delay it until it can be built as a Mojave-Barstow-LV line.
A connection at Mojave connects the whole state to LV. There’s no reason to drag the line to victorville until the line from Mojave to LAUS is saturated and the demand for a Cajon pass crossing is supported.
Palmdale-Victorville is the worst option.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:37 pm
i kind of agree with that though its unpopular here. Id much rather see mojave barstow vegas. with a later on connection to connect from riverside in order to best serve LA IE and San Diego pax.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:09 am
Unpopular?
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 4:36 pm
osrry I meant unpopular as in unpopular here on the blog. Most are for palmdale. For obvious reasons of course. but still. ( and there may be more people in socal, but norcal is more about quality just so everyone knows)
ITs too bad VRV-RIC is so darn difficult. what a pain. cuz it makes so much more sense. (plus moj)
BruceMcF Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 8:46 pm
When Bakersfield / Palmdale is completed, Mojave / Barstow is a connection to Palmdale and, when completed, points south, just as its a connection to Fresno and, when completed, points north.
But I don’t think they want to wait until 2020 to start the operation ~ “connects the whole state to LV hopefully by 2020″ is well worth making that junction in time for 2020, but if they have got any financing convinced on the “people will be happy to park at Victorville and leave the driving behind for the rest of the trip” story, they are not going to abandon a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:18 pm
No private financier is going to touch the DX line until the CHSRA makes real progress on a Bakersfield-LAUS link anyway. The end-game for DX is LA-LV. No-one is going to float the money without a near guarantee that CHSRA is going to put up the cash to get the trains from LAUS to the high desert.
Similarly, any private financier is going to want to have access to the norther portions of the state as well, and Barstow-Mojave dramatically shortens the Norcal-LV travel times while minimally increasing LA-LV. To top it all off, there’s already a rail corridor on Mojave-Barstow and the route is less populated than Victorville-Palmdale.
Victorville is on the phase-1 line now, but they’re in the same situation as Merced, they just don’t know it yet.
Donk Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:46 pm
I can completely understand why NorCals would would want the line to go Mojave-Barstow instead of Palmdale-Barstow. But if I was a private financier, I would focus on making the trip as fast as possible for the LA market. You would gain a lot more by making a 3 hr trip 20 min faster for LA residents than to make a 5 hr trip 20 min faster for a SJ resident. And no way anyone is going to build both Palmdale-Barstow and Mojave-Barstow. People in NorCal are just going to have to fly to Vegas or have a lot of Red Bull Vodkas on the train before they get to Vegas.
Jerry Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 10:22 pm
A 5 hour trip? Maybe gambling on the train to pass the time and help pay for the train. (Or now that I think of it, why not a special lottery with proceeds going to pay for HSR?)
thatbruce Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:41 am
Cross the Nevada border, start gambling.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:35 pm
add a lounge car with a lounge act. bar service and keno. “This weekend on desert express – 2 for 1 cocktails and the smooth vocal stylings of Judith Fontaine, Book today!”
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 10:44 pm
At 150mph Mojave-Barstow is about 11 minutes slower to LV from LA and 20 minutes faster from Norcal.
While 11 minutes is nothing to sneeze at, the trip from LA is going to be so much faster than driving or flying that it’s not really competing with anything. The trip from Norcal could use the speedup as it’s right on the edge (depending of course on DX’s final speeds).
What’s more, there’s 20 miles less track on the Mojave-Barstow connection. That’s a lot of capital saved. Plus you don’t have to placate Victorville with a Diridon South Trans Dimensional Rail Shed, which means you only have to build one station in LV.
With regards to your comment about building both palmdale-barstow and mojave-barstow. Of course nobody is going to build both Mojave-Barstow and Palmdale-Barstow. If you’re trying to make it as fast as possible for LA, then Cajon will get to most places south of Burbank faster than Palmdale. Cajon is dramatically faster to SD and the IE as well, but would be quite expensive and really only makes sense once capacity has been reached on Mojave-LAUS.
Build Mojave-Barstow, it’s cheapest and fastest to the rest of the state. When demand is there and Mojave-LAUS is at capacity (50+ years from now), build Cajon too.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Not to mention there are about 50x more grade crossings on any Victorville-Palmdale route than on a mojave route. The are between Victorville and Palmdale is sparsely populated, but it is populated, almost the entire route. Barstow-Mojave, on the other hand runs along the edge of Edwards and is about as close to perfect, empty rail territory as there is.
Donk Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:11 am
Overall, I agree with your argument and also prefer the Mojave route. However, the connection from the north isn’t even on anyone’s radar screen and the DX people are still pushing the idea of having 100,000,000 space parking structures in Victorville. If it goes to Mojave, they will assume that they need a 100,000,000 space parking structure there instead, and Mojave wouldn’t work at all for a parking structure. I’m all for Mojave, but the investors won’t buy into it without parking and won’t understand that the connection to the SFV/LA and SJ will bring in more riders than with a parking structure.
If the line gets built to Victorville, Mojave is dead, so you better start lobbying soon. Unfortunately, they already have their EIR approved and business plan complete, so good luck changing their mind.
Donk Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:13 am
BTW, aren’t they planning on rebuilding the 138 “highway of death” from Palmdale to Victorville? You would think they could plan now to set aside ROW for the connection for the DX project. But I doubt the planners are smart enough to do this. People in FL are much smarter than here in CA.
Victor Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 11:26 pm
The only problem with Mojave is that there is No direct rail connection to LA except at Palmdale as I’ve never heard of a CHSRA Mojave station or even a Mojave connection to the CHSRA tracks. But then I don’t know how far away from Mojave the CHRSA main line will be when It heads from the Tehachapis down towards Palmdale, For all I know the ability to connect the two sets of tracks together at Mojave may be complicated, Going to Palmdale from Victorville there are rights of way across the Desert, Hwy 18/138. Going from Barstow to Mojave
would involve largely following Hwy 58 through largely empty desert, While the southern route along Hwy 18/138 is closer to human habitation and the Hwy 58 alignment is not near any major habitation(for the desert at least). A rail line(BNSF to Bakersfield) I’ve heard exists, But I don’t know if It goes from Barstow to Bakersfield while passing near Mojave. Of course directly along Hwy 58 there is Kramer Junction, Boron, North Edwards and then Mojave. Along Hwy 18/138 there is Victorville, Some empty desert(much less than along Hwy 58), Llano, Littlerock and then Palmdale.
Joey Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 pm
I’ve never heard of a CHSRA Mojave station or even a Mojave connection to the CHSRA tracks
If DX isn’t planning a Mojave connection (even if they should be), then there’s no reason for the CHSRA to plan a connection/station there.
For all I know the ability to connect the two sets of tracks together at Mojave may be complicated
It really isn’t. It would be a wye in open desert (not even that close to the town of Mojave)
Going from Barstow to Mojave would involve largely following Hwy 58 through largely empty desert, While the southern route along Hwy 18/138 is closer to human habitation
Since there’s not enough population to justify any intermediate stations, it actually makes sense to avoid these sparsely populated areas. There is in fact an existing rail line roughly paralleling Hwy 58 between Mojave and Barstow (you can see it pretty easily on Google Earth when you turn on the transportation/railroads layer), but in truth there’s so much empty space out there that any HSL built there isn’t really bound to follow the rail line or the highway, though sticking to existing corridors where curves allow is never a bad idea.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:13 pm
I didn’t think it was necessary to state, but I am of course referring to a line from LV that goes through barstow, on to mojave and connects to the CAHSR system at that point. You don’t need a station, just a wye.
Joey Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 11:54 pm
Palmdale-Mojave-Barstow is only marginally (if at all) longer than Palmdale-Victorville-Barstow. For the speeds involved here, the difference is probably less than a minute.
Joey Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 11:56 pm
Sorry, major miscalculation. The difference of about 15 miles might save you 6 minutes, or less if you’re going faster than 150 mph.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 5:04 am
donkPeople in NorCal are just going to have to fly to Vegas
my ass.
Northern californians will be far more likely to use the train than southern californians.
Donk Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:02 am
Are you arguing that more people from NorCal will use this line to go to Vegas than people from SoCal, even though it would take 2 hours less from SoCal? I assume this is based on your opinion that people in NorCal are more sophisticated and intellectual than people in SoCal, and therefore that they are more likely to make smart decisions, like choosing to ride a fancy, energy efficient train.
Not only is your statement obviously ridiculous, but tree-huggers and liberals don’t go to Vegas anyway. This train will be full of metrosexuals and vatos from LA.
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:06 am
Vatos locos forever ese.
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:06 am
Vatos locomotives too.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:12 am
That’s one of the dumbest comments I’ve ever read on this blog. Seriously.
A *lot* of people from NorCal go to Vegas. A huge number. I’m not a fan of Vegas at all, but it is still a popular destination from even SF.
I don’t agree with jimsf about who will ride the train more – the DesertXpress train will almost always have much greater ridership from SoCal than from NorCal folks transferring at Palmdale. But there will indeed be some of those transfers. The trip would take what, 4-5 hours? That’s a lot better than 10-12 hours by car, and with flying becoming costly and inconvenient, the trains would provide a reasonable option for many NorCal folks headed to Vegas.
Donk Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:26 am
If you are referring to my comments about the demographics of train passengers to Vegas, then thanks for the award. Obviously you missed the sarcasm, I was making a sweeping over-generalization in response to jimsf’s sweeping over-generalization.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 4:41 pm
I try to talk people into flying from sf all the time and they insist on the 12 hour ( 6 train 6 bus) trip over flying. and while yes the bay has its ways, Im thinking more in terms of international tourism, which is the bulk of what I deal with in sf, and what they do and where they go when they are here. and in addition to that Im thinking of our sac/fno/ eastbay valley folks, who will see your IE and raise you the foothills.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 4:42 pm
(pardon my lame attemp at poker lingo, a game I have never played, only heard of inold movies)
YESONHSR Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Just looked and there are 24 nonstop flights a day just from SFO to Vegas..SanJose has at least 8 so there is 32 flights directly on HSRs route..i did not even count OAK as its not right on the line but HSR would be able pull some ridership from that also..plus the future SAC extension and that adds up to a very big market!! it would be great to get some funding for the BAK-Palmdale section from Vegas interests
Walter Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:21 am
But Victorville actually makes sense as a driveable destination for a large chunk of population (the IE is the fifth largest urban area in the state).
In the real world, neither Barstow (population 20K+) nor Mojave (population 3800) is going to have a high-speed rail station. Neither holds any significant tourist value, neither is a source of or a destination for commuters and neither is within reasonable driving distance of any major population center. The hordes of Angelenos/Inlanders that will provide the lion’s share of DX’s revenue won’t want their high-speed ride to Sin City interrupted by truly pointless stops in the middle of nowhere. Or, in other words, assuming DX wants to start service before the 2020s, where are they going to build their stations with a Mojave alignment? I’m not saying not to build the connection later, but it’s not a good first choice for DX.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 2:13 am
That is the logic ~ Victorville is a drivable destination for a large chunk of population, and an intervening location for the large numbers that presently do the trip by road. A wye in the middle of nowhere connecting to a rail segment that has not yet been built, on the other hand, is a less effective Phase 1, despite its superiority as a connector into the CAHSR system once the CAHSR system is built.
Even if the “private money” turns out to be quasi-public money from China, recycling a small amount of accumulated surplus into a longer term investment, even they will want to see an operating surplus ~ you don’t want to have to keep sinking operating losses into a long term investment.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:09 am
Then maybe there’s a way to logroll the two together. Have someone step up and fund DesertXpress AND HSR from LAUS-Bakersfield.
thatbruce Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:55 am
The problem with that suggestion is the Bakersfield to Mojave/Palmdale segment, as the return on those tunnels for a private investor would be small until the CAHSR project is completed to the Bay area (or Sacramento) and its population base. I’d think that a private investor also funding DesertXpress is more likely to fund LA to Antelope Valley either following CA-14 or even I-15 than connecting the Central Valley to the Antelope Valley, simply due to the larger population available in the LA area.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 4:47 pm
lets say we get dx palmdale along with chsr. My guess is that at some future date, once the system is in full swing and successful, what will happen is the state will come in, in good budget year ( we still have those too ya know) with transportation money for infrastructure and the state will say we are going to buiuld this bypass or wye or cut off – yes I think you’d call it a cut off, ( just like they do on some of the mountian highways) and they will finance the cut off from mojave to barstow. Its wide open flat, and realatively simple. Te state could easily swing it in a good year.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Don’t forget that the system will be generating operating surpluses that can be used for state matching funds.
Now, I’m skeptical that the DX will prove to be entirely self-funding, but lots of rail corridors in use everyday in the US were built by rail speculators that went bankrupt. Thing is, going bankrupt is a financial collapse ~ as long as the physical infrastructure is still there, the fixed creditors take a discount on the dollar, the shareholders are wiped out, and someone else is owning and operating the system.
However, given the DX system running, the Wye and cut-off could easily be self-funding, which would mean it could be funded by revenue bonds.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 8:01 pm
What are you talking about? All the state funds will be long gone before any trains are operating, even under the HSRA’s biz plan.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 24th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
and once they are operating, long after the bond money is used up, they will be generating operating surpluses, that can be used to fund the state share of any improvements/extensions/bypasses etc.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
December 24th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
I believe he means revenue bonds on the basis of revenue from the self-funding wye and cut-off.
YESONHSR Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 5:12 pm
With 32 flights a day I would think something could be arranged..
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:11 pm
My bet is DX will languish without funding, and whoever foots the bill to operate the CA line will immediately look at building a line from Mojave to LV. It makes a lot of sense and it would be relatively cheap. Whether DX is a part of that, frankly I don’t care. I’d rather DX didn’t get funded and that project was reborn as a true HSR line (the current DX plans call for some rather tightly radiused corners in the middle of the freaking desert, dramatically limiting speeds)
ie / sd better connection
Walter Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 8:51 am
DX says building over the Cajon Pass is “prohibitively expensive.” Though I agree that this would be a very useful route. Given unlimited funds, a two pronged-route with Bako-LV via Mojave AND IE-Victorville would be preferable to the Palmdale connection. Unfortunately, funds are not unlimited.
Donk Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:19 am
I heard arguments from the Maglev crowd that only Maglev can navigate the steep grades in that pass and that conventional HSR simply cannot be built from Palmdale to Ontario. Is this argument complete nonsense?
thatbruce Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 10:06 am
Yes (in the context of Victorville to Ontario).
The Maglev argument is that only Maglev could pass through the Cajon Pass using a near at-grade alignment at something close to Maglev’s normal operating speed. In that argument, they are correct.
The argument is silly in that it fails to take into account that every form of land-based transport (including Maglev) slows down when confronted with such an elevation gain. Certainly a near at-grade HSR alignment could be built through Cajon Pass (at a cost of course). HSR trains could operate over it, and would do so at a speed lower than their full, flat-out-on-straight-level-track speed. That’s not to say (as the Maglev crowd are) it couldn’t be done.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 3:28 pm
and there’s these things called tunnels. Very expensive but if you have the passenger volume worth the cost.
thatbruce Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 9:51 am
Some short tunnels are assumed in the ‘near at-grade’ phrasing. With the San Andreas Fault right there, long or deep tunnels are likely out ;)
To continue our discussion of weather and trains in the last thread, my God, a real infrastructure upgrade is required down here in Southern California. My girlfriend has to go to San Diego for a hearing, and now she is driving in this rain.
“Coaster and Amtrak train service between Oceanside and San Diego was canceled today due to the storm pattern that has hammered San Diego County for almost a week.”
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2010/dec/22/coaster-amtrak-service-canceled-storm/
The tweet from Amtrak: “Due to operational issues, Trains 566 and 567 are cancelled with no alternate transportation available.”
Not even a bus bridge. It’s like no one even gives a shit.
We could real use high speed rail right about now.
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:04 am
By the way, with everyone bitching about a viaduct, the train won’t flood if it’s 50 feet in the air. The LOSSAN Corridor probably fell into the goddamn ocean.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:10 am
Its also needs looked at for SF-SJ and all this trench whinning..this system is going to last for 200 years and the little towns south of SF are going to have to deal with the rising ocean and high water tables/flooding
James Fujita Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Reminds me of the situation at Qualcomm Stadium. The stadium is a swimming pool, but the elevated light rail tracks look safe to me (on the TV news).
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Here are some photos of that.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kflorence/5284586022/
One of the San Diego Trolley station.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kflorence/5284587234/
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:39 pm
One more: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kflorence/5283992323/
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:49 pm
very cool. And as we already know, an elevated can also be attractive at the same time.
James Fujita Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Odd choice of elevated tracks. Nostalgia train powered by a giant mouse.
James Fujita Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 7:13 pm
They are recommending that people ride the Trolley to the bowl game, which has not been canceled.
http://goaztecs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/122210aae.html
James Fujita Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Just a few hours until game time: “Neville also said the parking lot has drained much faster than expected, but there are still some spots under water, so he recommends fans arrive early or park off-site and take the trolley.” — San Diego.com
thatbruce Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 10:06 am
If you look at the flood control channels for the San Diego River as it runs through the city, you’ll notice it consists of a wide section, a narrow section and another wide section where it issues into Mission Bay. Predictably enough, large shopping centers such as Fashion Valley, the Mission Valley Westfield and the stadium are built in the narrow section and get flooded to a certain degree.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 7:52 am
Close, the goddamned ocean pumped water into the air which fell down, made mud, and fell onto the LOSSAN.
Its all the goddamned ocean’s fault.
spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 11:11 am
A bad day for the train. We are on I-5 halfway to SD
No traffic at all.
Do we even need rail at all? This day has me thinking.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Of course we do. The lack of traffic on I-5 between OC and SD you’re experiencing today is highly unusual. The norm is for there to be quite a lot of traffic on that route.
The problem with the Surfliners is the tracks in the Capistrano Beach area. During almost every major winter storm the bluffs come down onto the tracks and onto the coast highway, causing disruption. That’s one of the reasons why the HSR route to SD jogs inland via Riverside/San Bernardino. It’ll still be faster than driving on I-5 to SD even on a no-traffic day like today.
Plus that time in the car is wasted time, whereas one could be working or blogging or doing whatever on one’s iPad or laptop on the train.
spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:29 pm
I feel the same way, which makes me believe that the TRAC crew’s strategy of just upgrading the surfliner is not going to work. This is old infrastructure.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 4:15 pm
Yep. The Surfliner route has some problem areas, but the worst is probably Capistrano Beach. Upgrading the Surfliner is a good idea, but it’s no substitute for true HSR.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Driving is work too. On the train one can nap or watch the scenery or read a book….
Spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 5:51 pm
You can nap all you want in the station because service from San Diego is still suspended until further notice.
Before my girlfriend’s hearing we took a walk through Santa Fe Depot and there were a good amount of stranded travelers. I’m sure the others have called friends and family to pick them up, or decided to book another night at a hotel.
You can see why the current approach to passenger rail in the United States is never going to attract a high volume a passengers. Rain knocks out the tracks when I-5 is wide open. When someone jumps in front of the train the tracks are out of service for three hours when they can’t clean up hit and run accidents quickly enough.
In California, you just can’t count on the train. That’s why I’m warming up to 50 foot high viaducts and expensive infrastructure because goddamn, it might actually work.
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 4:57 am
sounds like me when, 99 percent of the time I love MUNI but the one day they make me late they suddenly can’t ever do anything right and “dammit who’s in charge around here anyway!!!”
synonymouse Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 11:06 am
@ Spokker
Extrapolating your 50′ approach BART should never experience problems. But in the real world we know that to not be at all the case.
As to expensive infrastructure policy-making is strictly arbitrary and capricious. Elevateds out in the middle of nowhere, but of courser, but Tejon tunnels, a centennial game changer, unthinkable if not heretical. I am beginning to think that Einstein was utterly wrong and Heisenberg righter than he could imagine. That the uncertainty principle is governed not by perfectly logical mechanisms we simply cannot see but that causality itself takes a vacation from time to time. It is in these moments when 1 =1 does equal 3 or whatever number you wish that PB & sundry foamers concoct their schemes.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 4:19 pm
….and I-5 never ever closes and everybody all the time cruises along at 65 MPH…..
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 6:22 pm
and even faster in the tule fog…. well, until the 72 car pile up ensues!
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 6:37 pm
well no one ever never ever drives faster than the speed limit or does things like drive too fastt in the fog. Or too fast in the rain. Or too fast in the snow. Or cuts across three lanes of heavy trafiic to get to their exit or…. It’s all just peachy keen out on the Turnpike….
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 6:47 pm
you forgot our favorite… on the i-5 driving 48 in the left lane.
I sure don’t miss driving at all. In fact the longer I go without it, the less I ever want to have to do it ever again.
Andre Peretti Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 11:37 am
The outraged French public learnt today that the SNCF’s decision to cancel trains owed little to the snow and a lot to bean-counting. The main victims were riders of regional trains which the SNCF operates but doesn’t own.
By contract, the SNCF has to pay the region damages when a train is late, but not if it is cancelled for safety reasons. So, rather than slowing down its trains it chose to cancel them. Cold financial logic, and not a thought for the thousands stranded at stations. Thinking the SNCF was a public service, they had confidently left their cars at home.
Where is the limit when you insist on a public service being profitable?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 6:26 pm
The limit is usually the public service actually becoming profitable, or close to it. The bean counters of JR East, JR West, and Korail manage to make a profit on commuter lines. The bean counters of the ZVV don’t, but they have a farebox recovery ratio of about 70%, which is unheard of in France.
swing hanger Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 9:34 pm
No substitute bus services? That’s no way to run a business that wants to keep customers, well, at least the ones that have choices, like your girlfriend.
Joey Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Amtrak doesn’t know how to run a business, or even a decent public service. With maybe a couple of exceptions, they only seem interested in catering to a niche market who will take the train no matter what. Anyone else who happens to walk in is good business, but not someone they care about keeping.
spokker Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Not running trains saves the state money, remember.
Joey Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Increasing ridership also reduces subsidies, at least on a per-passenger basis. Though with Amtrak’s paltry ridership, I expect that total subsides would go up quite a bit before they start going down. Anyway if it’s not spent on trains it’ll be spent on road repairs.
political_incorrectness Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 am
Keystone corridor disproves that. I believe also Washington’s extensino to Vancouver of the 2nd trip will disprove that as well. Why do you think the Cardinal is being considered for daily service?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 6:23 am
The Cardinal is a Kentucky and West Virginia porkfest.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 7:47 am
You forgot Indiana. The early train from Indianapolis to Chicago is what locks it into the current schedule.
Though eliminating the Hoosier at this point means that when the every day Cardinal continues to have low ridership, if Indiana wants to keep the Hoosier schedule in the next revamp of the Cardinal schedule, they’ll have to pay for the privilege. So the every day Cardinal might be the first step of a two-step dance.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 10:43 am
From Indiana’s point of view, it’d be better to use the same equipment to provide multiple Hoosier runs per day. From Ohio’s, it’d be better to provide multiple (but fewer) Cincinnati-Chicago runs. Only Kentucky and WV benefit from having the route as it exists today.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 4:38 pm
Unfortunately Indiana’s point of view tends more to “Trains are a Communist plot”
BruceMcF Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Kind of hard to add “multiple” trips with a single set of cars when its a 5:00 trip frequently beset by long delays. With two sets of cars they could have three Chicago / Indianapolis trips each way per day, but that would require Indiana to pay for the privilege …
… and compared to paying for the privilege of a second set and three daily trips Indianapolis / Chicago … they prefer the one non-state-subsidized train each way each day they
already have.
From an Ohio perspective, any change that obtained three trains or more per week between 6am and midnight to either DC or Chicago would be an upgrade. But its Republican majorities again in both houses of the state legislature and the Governor’s mansion, so the stance on funding is identical to Indiana.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 24th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
The Cardinal has two sets of cars. If the Cardinal were killed, you could have Hoosier State service about 3 times a day using the same consists. But a short-distance train could use a shorter consist with only one locomotive versus two for the Cardinal, which would allow service every three hours. If this train were extended to Cincinnati, then available equipment with shorter consists would allow service every 4.5-5 hours, i.e. about four times per day.
synonymouse Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 1:13 pm
When it comes to a “porkfest”, what exactly is the CHSRA? Or is the latter a “complete work of fiction” as CSX describes “Unstoppable”?
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/mostpopular/news-article.aspx?storyid=182953
Too bad the movie wasn’t based on an incident on the Santa Fe – it might have awakened Buffett on his kumbaya cloud to help the UP get PB back where it belongs, on freeway alignments.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 4:22 pm
In the Central Valley the other freeway, the one other than you beloved I-5, is so close to UP that you can almost touch the trains.
OK honestly, they just have no shame nor any kind of working relationship with reality. You have to love this article about The “urban core” “liberal” “rail fringe” who are “ginning up” legal trouble.
“a href=”http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/112188109.html”>RAIL FRINGE
rail fringe huh. wow.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 4:30 pm
uhg. link
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 4:08 am
“The utter lack of common sense is astounding. How can a fast train that takes Californians simply, effortlessly, in utmost comfort, at high speed from the heart of southern california, (well if not heart, then somewhere near the breast implants anyway) to smack in the middle of Vegas just minutes from the strip, or right onto the strip if they wanted, be a bad thing? Bad for whom is I guess the real question. But normal people who live in real life and who have functioning brain cells can see the obvious potential.
“I never thought I’d see the day but in my lifetime this country has gone from being the world’s shining beacon of progress, to becoming, what’s the word I’m looking for. ineffective? Its like the country has ED and needs one of those pills.
“It’s a damn train. it’s not difficult to understand. It’s not revolutionary. No one needs a space suit. There’s no organ transplanting involved or nuclear waste or baby seals.
I’ll never get over living through this part of our history. Its just bizarre.”–Jim SF
“What’s far more interesting is the latest Daily Reporter article that
talks about the $35,000,000 in freight rail upgrades the state is now on
the hook for. That was included in the fed’s stimulus money that
Walker gleefully turned down.
The money that we’ll now spend out of the state’s coffers could have
paid for 46 years of HSR operations and maintenance (at the $750,000
annual figure negotiated with the Fed).
So to be clear, we could have had our upgrades accounted for, been
part of a regional transit network, and had the City be the
manufacturing epicenter for new vehicles. Instead we get to be a global
laughing stock. This is the kind of stuff you should expect from talk-
radio-show “leadership.”–Panther Fan in JS Online article comments
My wife takes a look at some of the ridiculous comments about things in the local paper’s call-in column, at some of the comments her relatives put on her Facebook page about the current administration (i.e., the Muslem-not born here-socialist-O absolutely hates America stuff), Michelle Malkin, and of course at the things I’ve seen in promoting rail here in West Virginia, and she wonders if the country isn’t suffering an epidemic of some sort of low-level mental illness.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/21/risky-business-epa-builds-list-of-potentially-dangerous-chemica/?icid=main%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk1%7C191577
Could she be right?
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2010 at 4:59 am
oh she’s right.