December 20 CHSRA Board Meeting Open Thread
The California High Speed Rail Authority is holding a second board meeting this month to approve using the recently won $616 million in federal HSR funding to build tracks toward Bakersfield. The staff report for this meeting lays out the various scenarios for using the $1.232 billion now available (including the Prop 1A matching funds) to lay the tracks.
How far toward Bakersfield can they get? That depends, as the staff report explains:
The actual miles of construction which can be built with the $616M, including Prop 1A funds, (total $1.232 Billion) will depend on the final selection of the preferred alignment among the alternatives being evaluated, namely:
a. Through Corcoran [C1] OR Corcoran Bypass [C2]
b. West of Allensworth Park [A1] OR along BNSF east of Allensworth Park [A2]
c. Through Wasco & Shafter [WS1] OR Wasco & Shafter Bypass [WS2]These alternatives and the various iterations thereof offer numerous tie‐ins to the BNSF tracks to offer “Operational Independence”. However, as the alternatives are numerous, staff have included the most expensive [1A] and least expensive [1B] combinations and shown these on Figure 4.
1A, which would include an expensive viaduct in Corcoran, would get them to roughly Allensworth. 1B, bypassing Corcoran, Wasco and Shafter, would get them to the Bakersfield side of Shafter. That decision won’t be made today (at least I don’t believe it will be) but it indicates the range of options open to the Authority.
Click here to watch it live (updated link)
UPDATE: In a move that should surprise nobody, the board approved the recommendation to build toward Bakersfield. Here’s an excerpt from the CHSRA press release:
Moving quickly to take advantage of $616 million in new federal funding, the California High-Speed Rail Authority Board voted unanimously today to approve committing state matching funds to extend construction of the initial Central Valley backbone of the statewide system south to Bakersfield.
The new federal funds – which were redistributed from other states that returned federal high-speed rail support – will now be coupled with state matching dollars, bringing the total available funds to begin construction to $5.5 billion. The new total will allow engineers to significantly extend initial construction, potentially building as many as 120 miles of the project’s 520-mile first phase, and incorporate the Valley’s largest urban centers: Bakersfield and Fresno.
“Ohio’s loss is our gain. When other states shrunk from the challenge of high-speed rail, California’s firm commitment to this project paid off,” said Tom Umberg, Vice Chairman of the Authority’s Board of Directors. “This is the right place to start and the right way to start. Working from the midpoint of the system gives us flexibility to keep building north and south – and builds the backbone fundamental to a true high-speed rail system.”
Project engineers also looked at the option of extending construction north toward Merced, but recommended against it until a final alignment is chosen. With several alternatives for tracks still being studied in the environmental impacts, a commitment at this stage to build further north would carry a risk that the tracks could not tie in with existing passenger rail service – a requirement for this round of federal funding.
Depending on which alignment is ultimately selected – a decision that will not be made until all applicable environmental work is done – the initial section may stretch nearly 120 miles from near Madera to the northernmost part of Bakersfield.
In addition, the Authority is working with federal officials to jump-start designing and planning for high-speed rail stations across the entire state – including Merced, Bakersfield, Gilroy, San Jose and Los Angeles. The Authority anticipates that final agreement being negotiated with the Federal Railroad Administration will include allocations to Southern California and potentially other areas, a step toward funding advanced improvement projects, station area planning and right-of-way acquisition.
$5.5 billion and a route connecting Fresno, Hanford/Visalia, and soon Bakersfield is a pretty damn good way to start building our high speed rail project. Sure, I wish that at the end of 2010 we had more federal money, a commitment for long-term federal funding, and more of the route marked for construction. But we’re on our way now, and this momentum and ongoing public support will help ensure that over the next 9 years, the project continues to unfold as planned, as expected, and as the voters of California have commanded.
Anyone else only seeing pretty stripes?
Bret Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:15 am
I suppose that depends on your definition of “pretty”, but yes.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Link updated: http://bit.ly/c3iuwq
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Seriously, Microsoft Silverlight? Sacramento needs to start using *standards-compliant* streaming video, not proprietary Microsoft crap…
Listening to Van Ark’s commentary raises a question. I have nothing against Merced, but I’m curious as to why, if Phase 1 heads west towards San Jose/San Francisco south of Merced, why is/was Merced considered part of Phase 1? Is it because Altamont Corridor is not completely out of the running? And why does the CHSRA seem to be bending over backwards to keep reminding Merced that they are part of Phase 1 and that Castle is not out of the running for the HMF? Is this to appease Cardoza?
Jack In Fresno Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:26 am
It’s mollification. Merced is part of Phase I, but will most likely be at the very end of phase I as we gear up for phase II.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Phase I was determined before van Ark came on board. I think they realize they have a lot of support in Merced, not just in Dennis Cardoza, and they don’t want to alienate that any further than they already have.
thatbruce Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Rails on the ground to Merced is also a ‘foot in the door’ in continuing with phase II up to Sacramento.
Bret Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:50 am
that may be, but if that’s the case, why not a ‘foot in the door’ in the San Diego direction?
RubberToe Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:05 am
I think getting to “Ontario Airport” would qualify as a foot in the door toward San Diego. But, the environmental documents for the Phase 2 routes are year(s) behind the Phase 1 documents. I would imagine that it wouldn’t even be possible to start building the tracks East of LAUS for something like 4 years. And for that they would have to divert significant money from the current corridor that they are building first.
I wonder if the authority knew at the time they split the route up into Phase 1 and Phase 2, that the stimulus money would be coming, if they might not have chosen a different approach? You could do LA/SD first, but I’m guessing that given the non-direct route combined with the additional cost of going through more populated areas, they may have ended up just doing what they are doing now anyway.
As someone who takes the train to SD from LA quite often, I was really hoping that that section would have been done sooner. As it is, the LAUS run-through tracks and the LAUS platforms will be pretty expensive and that is in Phase 1. Had they been able to follow the LOSSAN corridor down the coast, then getting to Anaheim would have been your “foot in the door”.
RT
BruceMcF Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
If the same politics that nailed SF to LA in Prop1A(2008) as Phase 1 were still in place, then SF to LA is still nailed in place.
And as far as making competitive applications for big chunks of money, the incremental benefit of Express HSR is much stronger Bay / LA Basin than it is SD/LA, not only because its the Bay and the LA Basin, but also because if the corridor is SD/LA, a less expensive Regional HSR corridor comes into the frame for the primary transport market. The increment in benefit from Regional HSR to Express HSR on the LA/SF route easily covers the increment in cost.
thatbruce Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:13 am
NFI. They’ve got small ones in that regard with some of the works proposed around the LAUS run-through tracks (eg, an initially Metrolink wye allowing trains to run south through LAUS and then up to the I-10 alignment). The contention for where the HMF is (ie, Central Valley mostly along the phase I route) also contributes.
wu ming Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 11:44 am
possible maintenance facility at castle, ands then its proximity to yosemite, and presence of a UC campus, both of which might drive ridership above what one would expect for a smallish valley city like merced. and as a bonus, it gets us a bit closer to sac.
Looks like a battle between Merced and Chowchilla is likely. Chowchilla does not want the UP line used and Merced wants UP so they can have their downtown station.
Jack In Fresno Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:46 am
They need to get on UP then to start working with CHSRA then.
MGimbel Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
The Authority is also planning some hybrid solution that follows the BNSF alignment past Madera and then switch onto the UP alignment just north of Chowchilla. Check out the Merced-Fresno Supplemental Alternative Analysis report for additional info.
Daniel Krause Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Actually, it looks like the Authority is planning to access downtown Merced via UP even if they end up choosing the A1/BNSF alighment overall.
I am still waiting to hear somebody lambaste this decision, publish an op-ed about it, or write a letter demanding that the money be returned. Train to nowhere? Cordoza? Castle Expert? CARRD? Or is it possible that there is universal agreement that this makes sense?
Jack In Fresno Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
This is why they chose the CV, little to no serious opposition. Yes there was wailing and gnashing of teeth over Merced, but VanArk has effectively neutralized that issue with assertions that Merced is still part of phase I. It’s really genius once this gets built the momentum is on the side of the Authority, and they will “railroad” (HaHa!) The remaining opposition on the peninsula.
James Fujita Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
This ought to scare the bejeebers out of the Peninsula NIMBYs.
To think that we will soon (well, soon enough) be building an actual, factual high-speed rail line, even one from Bakersfield to Hanford to Fresno, in the state of California should be exciting news to anyone who supports HSR and frightening to anyone claiming that “it will never happen.”
Sure, I wish we had the funds to do more, but I’m going to heed the story of “The Fisherman and His Wife” and be thankful that Wisconsin handed us a magic fish :)
elfling Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Fresno to Bakersfield is pretty cool, and it will be useful. As soon as they have it up, I will go ride it.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Building anything new in an urban area these days is difficult. Rampant NIMBYism has taken deep hold in many California cities. It’s a huge problem.
RubberToe Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Maybe when you finally get a large enough number in front of 9 zeros people start realizing that something is going to start happening?
RT
We often talk about the train’s ability to weather the storm as planes falter and are delayed, but not all the time. It may be because Southern California doesn’t get rain as often as other places so we are lost when it does rain, but Metrolink has been having a hard time with the most recent storms down here. Here are just a few of many commuter updates from tonight. http://twitter.com/Metrolink
“Expect delays on SB Line tonight due to tracks near Rialto flooded. Buses are in route to Rialto for bus bridge. Updates to follow.”
“AV Line Train 222 delayed 15 minutes into Via Princessa due to weather”
“SB Line Train 335 delayed 45 minutes into Rancho Cucamonga due to weather”
“OC Line Train 606 delayed 12 minutes out of Laguna Niguel due to weather”
It isn’t waiting on the tarmac awful, but I sometimes feel that the weather busting effect of trains are greatly exaggerated, and we do see breakdowns in the system because of inclement weather. But this is just a little rain. I hope HSR is built to handle this more effectively.
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
yes but SFO has had 90 minute to 2 hour delays all week in comparison.
Spokker Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Well, we are talking about vastly difference distances and transportation modes. A 45 minute delay when you are only traveling 50 miles is a lot worse than a 45 minute delay when you are traveling 400 miles.
But the point is that when the train is billed as this all-weather system, anti-rail nuts pounce, and they are right to do so.
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
of course and I thought of that when I saw that extreme weather also cripppled euro transport systems recently too. but you also say that 15 minutes on a 45 minute commute isn’t as bad as 2 hours on a one hour flight. I guess.
you know up here, we have winter every year. from early november through april. water everywhere. (what shortage?) LA is like vegas when it rains al the water comes at once and has no where to go. Around here is just soaks in mostly. or goes into rivers…. not concrete ones either.
wacky la. I love it like a red headed stepchild.
Emma Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 2:52 pm
“LA is like vegas when it rains al the water comes at once and has no where to go.”
Meaningless panicking. Do you think that engineers don’t think about this stuff? Soemtimes there is a whole group of engineers only planning on how and where the water flows during strong rains.
We are building a state-of-the-art HSR system, not that poor patchwork the NEC enjoys.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:04 pm
I’m not suggesting rain will be a problem for hsr in socal. I was only referring to life in la in general. The hsr operations in cali will be extremely weatherproof.
fire- the only thing that might interfere.
earthquake – state of the art engineering so very likely to withstand
flood- most of the row will be at least somewhat raised about the surrounding landscape and most valley flooding happens further north.
fog- automatic everything and full separation takes care of that.
santa ana winds – n/a
snow- only in techa/high desert portion and never enough to worry about.
mudslides – mabye. but rare.
tsunami- at no point does hsr get close enough to the shoreline
killer bees- only if they can fly really fast.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:21 pm
In France, hardly a country that gives a crap about punctuality, the trains can run in almost any weather. If they don’t, it’s because the train drivers can’t get to the train stations in their cars, or can but have decided to go on strike. Because PB is cribbing design standards from the UIC and TSI, chances are it will keep the tracks clear of obstacles to the point that even Americans could keep the trains on time in bad weather.
jimsf Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
and LA in general has a hard time when the big water thingy falls from the sky. Its like the natives seeing fire for the first time. ( whats with the people getting swept away in the la river anyway, I mean how hard is it to not fall into the big concrete ditch surrounded by barbed wire?)
mike Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
Gotta agree with Jim here. My colleague was just stuck at LAX for 6+ hours waiting for his 1 hr flight to SFO. 12-45 minute delays are nothing in comparison.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
On the other hand, mudslides and flooding could easily knock out train service for equally lengthy amounts of time.
Missiondweller Reply:
December 20th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
That’s why its running through the Central Valley and not the coast!
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:51 am
biggest thing in the valley is tule fog nd flooding. But flooding is more of a problem from the delta, north not in fresno and bakersfield. The fog doesn’t slow down trains although I’m surprised it doesn’t. That stuff can be zero visability but the trains just go on through.
thatbruce Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:00 am
Advantages of a controlled corridor.
synonymouse Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 10:15 am
Kern County got a lot of rain with the UP having to send out work trains to some bridges.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:28 pm
One of the reasons for cab signal systems is that that the more conventional signals cannot be seen, in time to stop safely, at speeds higher than 80-ish. 80, hmmmmm….
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:15 pm
Speeds higher than 100 mph, in the British opinion. :-)
mike Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 10:30 am
Anything could happen. The question is the relative frequency at which events happen.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Flooding and mudslides are annual phenomena in California.
synonymouse Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Not quite, as the rainfall can vary greatly, say from the very dry years of 1976-77 to the very wet years of 1982-83. This year seems bizarre; it is supposed to be La Nina, but the rain in Socal is more typical of El Nino. It seems like it is running 2 or 3 weeks ahead of normal, with the very cold weather typical of the first weeks of December happening in November and the very wet weather you commonly see just after New Years occurring right now.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:11 pm
la nina brings the rains early then drought starting from january on. So it remains to be seen. We have pineapple express right now which may seem like el nino but its not. the PE rains affect the high sierra more, raising snow levels and melting existing lower elevation snowpack. When it happens in late winter these are the levee busters. The el nino storms affect the valley less but hit the coast much harder, the ones that have a mild hurricane feel.
If we see a cold early la nina winter with heavy snow pack, as we have, followed by a march pineapple express = inland mess.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:15 am
CAHSR will be grade separate on dedicated tracks. Metrolink shares its not-always-grade separate tracks with freight. As Jim notes, the problem in LA is a lack of drainage. (Okay, so the problem with LA is that there’s really nothing underground…but anyway…) Metrolink’s system was the product of political expediency…not anything close to the vision held by the Authority. So yeah, sure, in freak snowstorms, 9.0 earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, and all the other natural disasters it will have a problem. In ordinary rain if there’s problems PB is going to have ‘splaining to do….
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Metrolink is, indeed, running on nearly 100-year-old alignments which are not particularly well protected against weather; any new corridor would be more storm-reliable.
synonymouse Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:03 pm
And how old is the Tehachapi Loop?
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Its pretty old. The dinosaurs once used that route on their way to La Brea.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:41 pm
You do realize that HSR trains won’t be using the Loop.
Spokker Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:19 pm
No, but due to FRA rules they’ll have to be able to use the loop, haha.
A little regulatory agency joke for you.
Peter Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:30 am
Having just gotten stuck in Amsterdam on Friday, I can confirm that trains are not immune to storms. Our Amsterdam-Berlin flight was cancelled (as was every single inner-European flight), and we tried to get on an InterCity to Berlin. Then, 3 minutes after we purchased our tickets and 5 minutes before the train was supposed to leave, they cancelled that train, and for about three hours, NOTHING was heading out of Schiphol. There was a commuter train stuck there, fully packed, passengers literally crushed inside, with the doors open, for about two hours. Also a Thalys train, and another commuter train were stuck.
Then, after finally getting to Amsterdam Central, we spent the night in the smallest hotel room I’ve ever been in, at an astronomical price, and finally caught a train, well, three actually, to Berlin the next morning.
A great way to start our vacation.
thatbruce Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:05 am
NS are yet to learn that heated switches are more cost-effective solution than waiting for the snow jamming said switches to melt on its own (I had the reverse experience some years ago and that was the posted explanation).
Peter Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 12:29 pm
It wasn’t just NS with problems that day (still, actually). DB was actually recommending that people NOT take the train. EVERYONE has been having MAJOR disruptions.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:02 pm
According to rumor, Heathrow, DeGaulle, and Frankfurt airports are shut — is this right? That’s the three largest international airports in Europe!
I also heard that Eurostar is running but is booked solid.
Looks like nobody is doing well in the current storms in Europe, but the trains are doing better than the airplanes.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:31 pm
A couple of days ago, takeoffs were delayed for some hours because they needed to deice the planes. I can confirm it happened at CDG and Munich because I had family members there, but presumably it also happened elsewhere in the Euro frost belt.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:17 pm
I guess they’re just not ready for it. Deicing is standard procedure in Minneapolis. Actually, it takes a HELL of a lot to shut things down in Minnesota, since very cold weather, very high winds, and huge amounts of snow are pretty much standard.
Peter Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Flights were not delayed, but EVERYTHING (except for some international departures) was cancelled, with a number of airports being completely closed.
Frankfurt ran out of deicing fluid, and Heathrow had to remove 30 or so tons of snow from beneath every airplane that had been stuck there for any period of time.
Andre Peretti Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Trains just had to reduce their speed for fear that ice could damage the underside of cars. That doesn’t mean Eurostar’s management faced up to the situation. Although the queue at St Pancras was 1km long as Eurostar was the only remaining link between UK and the continent, they didn’t run a single additional service. Lack of available staff, they said.
Peter Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Eurostar wasn’t even running its full service. They had cut down to 80%. Possibly due to lack of staff, which accounted for why our BistroCar from Amsterdam to Berlin wasn’t staffed. The “cook” didn’t make it to Amsterdam. Somehow they found someone halfway to Berlin who could staff the BistroCar.
Peter Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Rumor is correct. Additionally, Berlin Tegel was closed, so we couldn’t get from Berlin to Heathrow, either.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:36 pm
This is a very good point. No transportation system is immune from the effects of severe weather. HSR will take its lumps too.
That being said, HSR will be a vast improvement over SFO, which is usually delayed at the merest hint of fog or rain. OK, that’s an exaggeration, but not a big one. SFO is one of the most delay-prone airports in the country, but HSR will have no problem operating in the same conditions that cause the delays at SFO.
Off topic, but perhaps of interest–contracts signed for a new passenger service in Virginia on a route that hasn’t had passenger trains in about 40 years (linked from Railway Preservation News):
http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2010/passenger.html
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Good news, even if it’s not really one of the top-priority projects in Virginia. This line is dead straight for nearly 60 miles from Petersburg to Suffolk, though I doubt they’ll upgrade it to the full speed it could handle.
Unfortunately no news yet on the Acca Yard Bypass or the southside access to Richmond Main St. Station, which are the critical links for major service improvements south of Richmond. The chokepoints within DC (Long Bridge across the Potomac, signalling from there to Union Station, platforms at L’Enfant Plaza, engine switching occupying platforms in Union Station) haven’t been addressed yet either.
political_incorrectness Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 6:50 pm
Hopefully they can get it up to at least 90 mph. At 60 miles straight, it would be around 45 minutes.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 7:49 pm
That long straight stretch is interesting; it runs through the Great Dismal Swamp on a roadbed of logs that’s 150 years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_and_Western_Railway#City_Point.2C_bridging_the_Dismal_Swamp.2C_William_Mahone.2C_Civil_War
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:19 pm
That’s very interesting, thank you. I have no idea how fast a train that very unusual subbase would support.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 12:43 pm
It won’t have any problems at all running anything you want over it. It still carries modern coal trains, and carried the heaviest of Norfolk & Western steam engines. It was also a racetrack for passenger trains that were late; there are documented cases of where late trains roared across the Great Dismal Swamp at 100 mph or better.
This is what did the pulling in steam days–heavy axle loadings and all, and of course running on some of the finest high-BTU, low-ash coal in the world. Item: take note of the tractive effort-horsepower-speed graph in the following link:
http://files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Communities/History/Landmarks/5609.pdf
http://www.retroweb.com/611.html
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/nw.shtml
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 22nd, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Of interest is that the N&W had an electric division (Bluefield, W.Va. to Iae
ger, W.Va., with some branches. Power was two series of rod-drive box cabs dating from the WW I era. Ironically, this electric operation was replaced in 1950 by improved steam engines (and a new tunnel with a better grade and better ventilation), one of the few examples of this to occur, and as far as I know, the only case like this in America.
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1576.jpeg
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1594.jpeg
http://www.wvrailroads.net/index.php/Norfolk_&_Western_Railway
Off topic, but perhaps of interest: agreements signed for new passenger service in Virginia on a route that hasn’t had passenger trains in about 40 years; linked via Railway Preservation News:
http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2010/passenger.html
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 4:21 am
Crazy program–sorry about the double post.
I hope they choose the cheaper routing and build further.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm
I think the choice in Corcoran is going to depend on wetlands issues.
It seems to me that, since Corcoran is definitely not getting a station (Hanford/Visalia Regional will serve that area), a bypass makes the most sense — but I believe if I remember correctly the low estimate on the bypass is dependent on resolution of wetlands issues. If it turns out they can’t resolve them, if they have to build a bridge over the wetlands, the bypass may turn out to be more expensive than the viaduct.
jimsf Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 3:20 pm
wetlands schmetlands. you mean that patch of dust? run the row through it all of what , 25 feet wide, put some pipes under so the frogs can go though. They may need a tumbleweed crossing as well.
Nathanael Reply:
December 21st, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Remember, we’re trying to prevent the ROW from flooding even when the town floods….