California To Receive Wisconsin/Ohio HSR Money
Just one day after the House of Representatives did as President Obama asked and cut the FY11 HSR budget to $1 billion, we are hearing reports that the White House is going to redirect Wisconsin and Ohio’s HSR money to three states – Illinois, New York, and California:
Congressional sources say the Obama administration is taking $1.2 billion in high-speed rail money away from Ohio and Wisconsin and awarding it to projects in other states.
People familiar with the grants say the Department of Transportation will announce Thursday that California, Illinois and New York, among other states, will get a share of the funds.
That’s about all we know right now – the actual amount is unclear. But if it helps get tracks closer to Bakersfield, it would sure help the California HSR project, which has been facing dishonest and false criticism that its first construction segment is a “train to nowhere.” I’ll update this post with more information as we get it.
UPDATE: I have confirmed this with a Congressional source, so the redirection of funds IS indeed happening. The US Department of Transportation will release more info around 10 AM, and I’ll post it here when I get it.
UPDATE 2: The New York Times has the details:
The biggest winners of Ohio and Wisconsin’s money were California, which will receive another $624 million on top of the nearly $3 billion it has received so far toward the construction of a high-speed train from Los Angeles to San Francisco, and Florida, which will get another $342 million on top of the roughly $2 billion it has received to build a high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa.
So another $624 million comes our way. I’ll have to go back and look to see if this indeed means we can go all the way to Bakersfield – or all the way to Merced – but this is some very welcome news, especially after yesterday’s disappointing vote to cut the FY11 HSR budget.
UPDATE 3: Read the US DOT release on the redirection of HSR funding. California can get “up to” $624 million. I’m sure there’s a reason that specific number was reached. I wonder if Dennis Cardoza had a hand in this.
UPDATE 4: Here’s the statement from Senators Feinstein and Boxer:
“As the most populated state in the nation, California’s ability to move people and goods rapidly is paramount,” said Senator Feinstein. “This will help us push forward with high speed rail, which is one part of a new, modern transportation system. If California is to continue to be the economic dynamo it has been in the past, the ability to build the necessary infrastructure is vital. This is a step in that direction.
“I applaud Secretary LaHood for responding to our request and allowing the state of California to utilize these funds for advancing high-speed rail. No other state is as ready, as able, or as determined to develop a high-speed rail system in the near future.”
Last month, Senators Feinstein and Boxer sent a request to Secretary LaHood to redistribute Federal grants from states who have cancelled their high-speed rail projects to those states that have made strong financial commitments to infrastructure projects.
Senator Boxer said, “This is great news for California, which has made a strong commitment to high-speed rail and the jobs it creates.”
UPDATE 5: The CHSRA is out with their release, and it states the money will be used to connect the initial segment approved last week to “another urban center”:
“This is yet another vote of confidence that California’s project is on the right track toward creating tens of thousands of jobs for our state and constructing the nation’s first true high-speed rail system,” said Roelof van Ark, CEO of the California High-Speed Rail Authority.
The funding is anticipated to further construction in the Central Valley toward another urban center. Initial construction is slated to begin in 2012. The California High-Speed Rail Authority Board this month selected the starting point for the project’s Southern California-to-Bay Area construction.
That’s good – and gives supporters of a Merced HSR station another shot to make their case.
UPDATE 6: Sources tell me that the USDOT has indicated the $624 million should be used to build tracks toward Bakersfield.
Going south is a little difficult. The next bit is the Corcoran aerial which looks like it costs $1 billion, unless they get approval to go through some wetlands which has been referred to as the “Tulare wetlands mitigation” area, which they probably won’t know for awhile. This uncertainty was one reason they didn’t do the south Fresno to north Bakersfield (#2) option.
It sounds like some wetlands were restored as part of some other development, but we don’t know anything more than that. Google maps gives one possible area but we are looking for more details on the specific area. Anyone know anything?
Bret Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Elizabeth, I agree that the wetlands question does cause some concern, but what is your opinion of public reaction if the HSRA ignores extending track down Alternative 2/2A which scored so much higher in staff’s recommendation than Alternative 3 toward Merced? Alt. 2 was cheaper than 2A, and doesn’t it bypass Corcoran, avoiding the wetlands instead of having to build the viaduct?
Elizabeth Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:23 am
ALT 2 was cheaper because it went through the wetlands at grade. What they stated is that they don’t know if they can do that. I would assume what they are trying to get someone to sign off on is making even more wetlands elsewhere. There are some rules about this though,
Elizabeth Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:28 am
The scoring was complicated. It wasn’t about whether you were going towards Wye or towards Bakersfield that got it points.
Bret Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Okay, to make sure I’m understanding….2 bypassed Corcoran at-grade, but to do so went through the wetlands in question where as 2A was a viaduct through Corcoran and missed the wetlands?
Also, I understand the direction didn’t necessarily have anything to do with points, my question was more along of the lines of as much public scrutiny this has received, and in order to give credence to their scoring system, wouldn’t they be more likely to go with what remains of Alt. 2 next since it scored significantly higher than Alt. 3? I realize that they will likely be restricted by what the funds will get them.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
It is possible that California is getting close to Corcoran cost. They will free up some reserves for connector $60 million?, plus be able to fully utilitize the $4.3 billion (previously they were leaving $150 million on the table). $210 million + 624 fed + 167 state bond money = $1 billion
YESONHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
If FLA bails on HSR … its 1.1 Billion in ARRA and 800 million in 2010 HSR funds possible
YESONHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
looks like FLA will not bail if they got almost all of the funding!! thou that money would be a huge help at this point
BruceMcF Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Having the first link in the Florida system breaking ground is a bigger help over the long haul.
Basically redirecting the money to keep advancing two Express HSR corridors and the two strongest Emerging HSR corridors ~ giving the Cascade Corridor the balance of their original request was the first thing I called to be done with the money, so I’m happy on that score.
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
It is still possible that the 2 aligments through Corcoran are still on the table, being that the EIR isn’t finished yet. There may at some point be a hybrid of choice 1 and 2 for the starter segment, plus the additional track miles from the new funding
YESONHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
And now the 1Billion set for 2011 funding
John Burrows Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:52 pm
for a 70/30 match I believe the state bond money would amount to $267 million for a total of 1.1 billion.
Dan S. Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
I like this good quote from the NYT story Robert referenced. John Kasich is the Republican governor-elect of Ohio, who sent their HSR money back.
Heh. I have an idea. Let’s name the new segment that we can build now after him! “The Honorable John Kasich High-Speed Rail Corridor” has a good ring to it!
Illinois and New York? New York sounds like the Amtrak idea somehow, But Illinois? Well something for California is better than all of nothing.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Most likely it’s more money for the upgrades between Chicago and St. Louis.
Alan F Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
The up to $42.3 million for Illinois is the difference between the $1,142,324,000 that IL applied for the Chicago- St Louis corridor for upgrading the Alton to Dwight IL section and the $1.1 billion even that they were awarded back in January. If IL can get that funding, will help with additional upgrades for the 110 mph Chicago to St. Louis corridor which may be the most important corridor project in the Mid-West. If the improvements, even if the funding is short of getting to the < 4 hour run time goal, show dramatic increases in ridership that will shore up political support in the other Mid-West states – although WI and OH may have to wait 4-8 years for new governors – for building the Mid-West Regional Rail plan and get serious about study & engineering work towards 220 mph service in the next decade.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
And giving WA the balance of its request means that there will also be an example of the system running through more difficult terrain
And the other side of the “demonstration effect” is that WA and IL have already invested in ongoing improvements over time, so its a “reward for good behavior” demonstration (as opposed to the “reward the hijackers” approach to taxes).
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
I unfortunately distrust UP, the contractor for the Chicago – St. Louis section, which has had a record of taking government money and using it for failed projects in the past (they had a “PTC” system funded some years back).
The WA money is going to work out fine, since BNSF and the other involved parties in WA have perfectly good records.
Just got the tweet – CA to get $624 million in funds
Dan S. Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Woo-hoo! Alright, some good news!
If Cordoza was involved, this probably means more construction toward Merced. Given the appox. 30% match the Authority is planning for all new money, this pot of money will be about $811M. Not sure how far we can get with that. Maybe the Y gets built.
Interestingly, Scott Walker just announced he was open to spending WI HSR stimulus on upgrade to Amtrak. Looks like he waited a bit too long to cut a deal. This is great new for CA.
YESONHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
playing his damage control /bad Feds game now!!!!
Wow, so Florida has now received 100% federal funding of Phase 1 of their HSR system. How soon can they start construction?
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:28 am
I still think that is BS because they (FL) do not want to put up a dime of their own money, unlike us (CA) who voted for a $10 billion bond. I still hope Florida renigs on building their system so we can get more money from them. Only seems fair, hehehe.
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:39 am
It isn’t BS as the state of Florida did put up it’s own money by spending additional money 10yrs ago when rebuilding I-4 between Orlando and Tampa by adding additional land for HSR ROW in the median. This is good news for us in Florida! Early construction will start in a few months according to the FLHSR website http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:02 am
There is no more space than every other newly freeway built.
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:34 am
Please go to the FLHSR website under Nov10 Forum documents – FL HSR Industry Forum Overview presentation pdf ( http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/nov-2010-forum-docs/monday-nov-8-presentations/ ) and you will find more details of the route and construction details along with speed profiles for the route (max speed is 181mph). I-4 was an old, narrow 4-lane (mid 1960′s design) highway before it was completely rebuilt between 1998-2005. All but 3 bridges have enough clearance for HSR trains and the vast majority of the median is wide enough to fit a 44′ HSR ROW. The FDOT basically built the new EB and WB lanes to the outside of the previous travel lanes to create the expanded median specifically for future HSR. Please take the time to look at the documents on the FLHSR website – I have lived here in Florida since ’97 and drive I-4 everyday. Trust me I-4 is wide enough. However, from Orlando to Miami is a different story, in alot of places on I-95 the median is too narrow, especially WPB to MIA. So the 2nd phase of FL HSR if built, will have to take more land (and more aerial structures).
thatbruce Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:42 am
Land in the median is easy; having the political will to keep it reserved is harder.
More of their earlier expense seemed to be in the overpasses to ensure sufficient vertical clearance.
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:57 am
I agree, the political will to not touch it is the hardest part. Hopefully our new Republican govenor will look at the HSR business model with an unbiased eye. Once HSR is built to Miami I can’t imagine it not being successful and making money. I agree TPA-ORL is not the greatest route, but like any other new transportation system, it has to start somewhere. The overpasses were expensive but remember the new highway is 3 lanes in each direction that were built completely new. I believe some additional land was acquired back in the 1990′s to expand the overall highway ROW width.
Nadia Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
I’m from Miami (my parents still live there) and I agree HSR from MIA to TPA would be great. However, every time I go back and see the aerials for those highways – I wonder where on earth the HSR line would run. Do they have plan yet and could you send a link? I haven’t been following the FL project at all…
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
The FL HSR website has alot of design details – you just have to know where to look for them. Look under the Nov Industry forum presentations thru this link to ‘Resources’ http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/links-resources‘
also under procurement and contracting they have nice aerial photos/drawings of the planned route under ‘concept plans’ – even including a track diagram for the planned maintenance facility near the Orlando airport. go to this link:
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/procurement-contracting
Most of the I-4 route is in the median and at grade or raised earthen embankment with walls. Very little aerial or bridge structures. WPB to MIA will be mostly aerial due to lack of land. I assume north of WPB it will be similar to I-4 according to the documents I have read.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
For reference, another blogger, formerly from Tampa, now in New York City:
http://www.tamparail.org/
Mainly a light rail site, but with some HSR commentary, too.
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Sweet, the Tampa HSR station will be right next to a freeway.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
Yeah, and for some reason they are able to not build arrow-straight station platforms, yet still comply with ADA. Hmmm, very strange.
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
But the verticle clearance is a non issue in parts because their documents show a viaduct over the overpasses. Over not under
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
If I remember correctly there will be two new viaducts over existing bridges: one in Lakeland where the CSX line to Wildwood and a highway bridge cross I-4 on the side of a Florida “hill” and one just east of Disney World’s station – which I can’t figure out why it needs a bridge over the interchange. On one set of the pdf documents http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/interactive-map it shows a vertical elevation profile for the whole route detailing where viaducts and bridges, embankments and at-grade sections will be constructed. There are only two original overpasses of I-4 that will be rebuilt (they were left out of the rebuilding 10 yrs ago for some reason) to obtain the vertical clearances sufficient for HSR.
Steven Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
It looks like they’ll need to rebuild the roadway in a few places– i.e. the thin black lines in sections 8 and 13– and the median is narrow enough in other places that they’ll have to use retaining wall. We shouldn’t just consider new rail viaducts part of a project, but not new road viaducts. That said, a large percentage of the project is built at grade, primarily because FL preserved that median. That’s impressive, particularly compared to CAHSR’s extensive viaducts.
(*sorry if there are some editing issues with this comment– my browser is screwed up, and I can only see part of my comment!*)
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Brian, it is great to finally hear from someone who is actually a FL HSR supporter. I didn’t think anyone actually cared about that project.
Do you know how much FL actually spent on the extra land and widened bridges? Was this just federal funding that was used to build the highway or was it actually FL funds that was dedicated to this? I still have not heard a strong case for why this qualifies as matching funds, and would love to hear some facts about this.
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Yes there are actually alot of people that care, it’s just that the loudest only get heard (especially in a ‘purple’ state like FL) which is similar to the peninsula area of SF Bay. Remember, it was a Republican state legislature here that passed several bills last year to enable FL to get to this point. AFAIK the previous I-4 project was the typical federal/state match. I will have to research further due to the passage of time since it was proposed in the early to mid 1990′s. In any case, the land does belong to the state of FL so in a sense it does offset the cost of having to acquire private land. Like everything else, the awarding of funds is a political animal! Florida has committed $280 million of it’s own money for this current project through the matching requirements of the $815 million grant it received in October. That is about 12% of the $2.7 billion total cost (that includes and expected private investment – Japanese and the Siemens teams are supposedly offering loans of 200-350 million).
In any case I think the FL HSR gov’t agency has done a good job so far in its decisions made regarding the management of this project. I know the route is not ideal for TOD, but here in FL that was the only way to get anything built in my lifetime! Hopefully, with the tourists here (along with locals) that HSR studies say will use the first segment, it will be a success. This should lessen the skepticism of some here in FL that will enable the more profitable Orlando-Miami segmant to be built soon after this first route is finished. Have you had a chance to research the FLHSR website regarding the construction details?
Brian Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
Also good news in that Rep. John Mica seems to be softening his comments made immediately after the election:
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2010/12/09/rep-mica-supporting-high-speed-rail.html
Al-Fakh Yughoud Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
(FL) do not want to put up a dime of their own money, unlike us (CA) who voted for a $10 billion bond
Well. Voting for a bond isn’t exactly the same as voting for a tax increase so that the line could be built. I guess it’s an American habit to charge everything on a credit card.
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Same as financing a house.
From a policy standpoint, this is a good thing. California has the greatest need for this money, New York has the greatest current ridership, and Illinois represents the hub of an eventual Midwest network.
I do worry about the politics, though. Two battleground states in the 2012 presidential election have just lost a billion dollars in investment at Obama’s word, and the money has been redirected to three of the “bluest” states in the country.
ant6n Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:29 am
“lost at Obamas word”?
Jason Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:03 am
I’m definitely expecting some of this kind of turnaround from those responsible for losing the money. It was lost at Walker and Kasich’s word, but I will not be surprised in the least when they blame Obama for killing jobs in their states.
YESONHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
The voters that elected them knew were they stood on HSR ..so its there fault and should take it out on the 2 backward thinking Govs..and of course now they will play up the blame it on Pres O
for not letting them build roads with it.
Michael Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
Battleground states lost the money because the Republican victors in 2010 campaigned to give it back. The bet is on saying “Oh, look what this foolish decision did. Cue video of earthmovers in California and Florida and unemployment rate for construction in Ohio and Wisconsin in 2012.”
WOOHOOO. Less money for Japan and Germany to lend us!!! Lets build a few miles more of the first segment…would that give us 10 miles more?
In light of the extra money, is the HSRA going to revisit the first segment decision so that it can connect Fresno to Bakersfield or Merced?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:35 am
Apparently not. Look for an update on this shortly.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Well, as predicted, it appears that Brown is indeed going to put a huge tax measure on the ballot:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-brown-taxes-20101209,0,2934120.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fmostviewed+%28L.A.+Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories%29
We’re finally going to get a symbolic re-vote on Prop a A and a vote on the shelved LA diversion-Peripheral Canal water bond. This should prove to be the biggie; PB-Palmdale will have to ante up everything they’ve got on this one.
RubberToe Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Mouse,
I read that story this morning in the Times. Whats wrong with that idea? It sounded like Brown was going to craft a budget that would be balanced, without raising taxes, and show people what that would entail. Then have the special election to see if the electorate would then be willing to pony up additional tax $ to avoid what would be draconian cute.
RT
Missiondweller Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
How many more times do Californians have to tell our leaders we don’t want higher taxes?
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Apparently as long as Californians keep telling our leaders to guarantee spending for things like education and the state parks without having adequate financing.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
I have no problem paying more. I would start with gas taxes or fees.
Zero problem! The more teh better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Then you can pay my share since I prefer to be able to eat.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
You don’t have a car, raising gas taxes aren’t going to cost you anything.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
how do you think the food I buy gets to the grocery store, by camel?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
By a truck, which overcharges because it gets stuck in traffic behind cars a lot.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
no more taxes on working class americans period. you want more money, take it from somewhere else.
Joey Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Jim, the price increase on food from a gas tax is going to be marginal, particularly for locally grown stuff. If you’re buying crap that’s been shipped halfway across the country, then maybe it’s a different matter.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Those truck drivers aren’t making working class wages.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
no more taxes. period.
Joey Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Well excuse me if you’re not willing to pay a few more cents on a gallon of milk. And I don’t suppose it’s occurred to you that taxes must increase periodically with inflation either, has it?
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
did I stutter?
Spokker Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
I get it though. When jim pays taxes he’s practically paying himself.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
u cant pay what u dont have
Dan S. Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
I like Jerry’s gambit here. This is the simple reality. Californians are going to have to wrap their brains around it some day. We demand state services while at the same time eliminating the funding for them. Dudes, something has to give. Saying “read my lips, no new taxes” is not an intellectually sound platform if you don’t say what services you want to cut.
Sounds like Jerry is going to present an initial budget with no new taxes, explaining where he’ll have to make cuts. Then he’s going to come with an up-sell to the public, showing them what they can get with a little more revenue. On the face of it, that sounds ludicrously reasonable to me.
Me, personally, I don’t want to cut services, I want to increase revenues. That’s why I support new taxes. And as a non-homeowner I definitely support sending Prop 13 out to pasture. Probably I’m the only one.
James Fujita Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 12:48 am
Jerry Brown likes to think outside the box; “Moonbeam” ought to be a compliment. And I think he’s going to surprise the living hell out of some people. He was the “Era of Limits” governor the first time around.
Our state is in a mess, and its going to take both cuts and taxes to fix it. The only real question, is which ones.
jimsf Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 5:13 am
I think brown will make tough choices. It ‘ll be interesting to see what he does. I’m going to support him cuz I like him, let him do his thing and see what happens.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
To quote the immortal Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: “Taxes are what we pay for civilized society”.
The corollary would be that not paying taxes leads to chaos. Sounds about right to me.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
do you not get that if you take some who lives on say 550 a week, and you take 50 away, thats a 200 dollar per month hit? do you think a person who lives in california, on that income can take a 200 hit? Im glad you can afford it but many of us are barely surviving. And while I don’t drive much, most of those in the lower end are most dependent on driving to survive. Even small increases hurt them the most. Thats exactly what turns the working class off to liberal politics and send them to vote republican.
You need to look at the state budge pie and re prioritize the slices.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
I agree with maintaining the tax cuts for the lower and middle classes, while taxing the shit out of the upper class. For now. Once the economy improves again, though, we need to do something about the tax cuts overall.
That weird Republican idea that people who don’t need the extra money they get through tax breaks are going to spend it to make the economy grow is poppycock, with no basis in reality. If someone gives me an extra $500 that I didn’t expect to have, I don’t blow it on something, I save it. Which is precisely what all those people making hundreds of thousands of dollars are going to do with their extra money.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Fastest and easiest way to cut the state budget without harming our future is to release non-violent drug offenders from prison. Next, do away with 3-strikes, as it costs the state a LTO of money with no measurable return in terms of reduction in crime.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
Sure. And fastest way to cut the federal deficit without harming the future is to withdraw from Afghanistan and reduce regular military spending 50%. It has about the same chance of happening as releasing nonviolent drug offenders.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
^^^totally agree with that for sure!
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Hey, I don’t disagree that neither will never happen. It was just a suggestion.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
totally agree with that one also. also won’t happen. not under this president.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
Hmm. I’m beginning to expect that both will happen. Just not under this federal government. California? Never underestimate Jerry Brown, he might just do it.
tony d. Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
A symbolic re-vote of Prop. 1A? Now that was stupid. You must certainly be miserable with this latest news mouse…GREAT!
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Huh? You’re just engaging in wishful thinking about a Prop 1A revote. And the $11 billion water bond is still scheduled for a November 2012 vote.
wu ming Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
there’s nothing in that article about either the peripheral canal or HSR.
Victor Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Revote on Prop 1a? Dream on Syn, Dream on, It won’t see the light of day. Unless You know of someone with lots of money to burn.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
That’s a mistake, if true, Robert.
thatbruce Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:44 am
I’d guess that they’d tack on a few more miles north of Fresno, unless the Bakersfield station location and entry can be pinned down.
Bakersfield is the reddest part of California and it’s ascending whip Con. Kevin McCarthy supports the Jerry Lewis bill of destroying Calif HSR. Between McCarthy in Bakersfield and Cardoza in Merced, which is the most politically astute move cahsr could made?
Roger Christensen Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
(make?)
ajmstilt Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
perhaps, in a less crazy world it would make it harder for McCarthy to oppose CAHSR.. in the world we actually live in… who knows.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
No way in hell they will put a water bond issue on the ballot after Brown’s welfare tax initiative goes down to defeat. Which should be relatively easy, despite hundreds of millions spent by the machine to try to pass it. In order to energize his welfare constituency Brown will have to promise increases, perhaps in the guise of rollbacks and restorations. But the public has finally acquired a necessary and healthy skepticism and it will have to be an early, off-year election measure, with a low and conservative turnout. They should be able to stick the “Bell” label on it right away.
A tax increase will be seen as a symbolic rejection of all big government spending, and a symbolic rejection post facto of Prop 1A. Why do you think they pulled Schwarzie’s pet water bond from the promised ballot?
And things are getting interesting in DC too as the right is becoming dissatisfied with the Barack compromise. If the nanny trio and their crew don’t come thru the whole tax cut deal will be put off until January. Expect enormous pressure on LaHood. then from disgruntled states.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Should have read “tax increase defeat”
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
I’d be happy if the Republicans prevent the proposed action on the extension of the Bush tax cuts. Guess what happens? Taxes go up January 1 on everyone, and we’re on our way to balancing the budget.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
The Repubs will immediately move in January to kill the unpopular tax increase. Barack got some Demo spending in the compromise that the right doesn’t like at all.
The CHSRA version of hsr is pure pork, especially for LA, which gets a Lexus BART to Palmdale paid for by statewide taxpayers, whereas the state would normally only pay a portion.
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
But to pass it they’ll need to get Dem’s in the Senate and Obama himself to approve it. Not likely without the “spending”.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
The pundits are already commenting that Barack would not dare politically to veto the extension of the Bush tax cuts.
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
He wouldn’t have to. They’d never get it past the Senate.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Questionable in the new political reality:
http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/132501-the-republican-senate
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Hmm, you’re citing Dick Morris, who never gets anything right.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
Because the pundits are always right.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
And those senators will be stuck with the rap of having imposed a tax increase during a recession. The tax cuts for the rich are not that popular, nor are they that unpopular outside of Berkeley to cause any real lasting problem for the GOP.
For the present the momentum is with the Reaganites. Eventually you will have two failures, that of Reaganism and that of Pelosiism. Ain’t no panacea forthcoming. But we will have learned the lesson that infrastructure spending has lost its allure because those who implement it are political, susceptible to corruption, and lack both good taste and vision. Otherwise they would gag on their berms and aerials they want to impose on the back sides of towns enroute. And they would be able to draw a reasonable facsimile of a straight line on a map.
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Guess what? The Dem’s control the Senate so it’ll never even come up for a vote. So how can they get stuck with the claim that they “voted” for a tax increase? “My opponent’s claims that I voted for a tax increase is scurrilous and false. I never voted for a tax increase.” The voters don’t understand the arcane rules of the Senate. They won’t hold their Senator responsible for the tax increase that came about because a Republican controlled government voted to let the tax cut expire.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
my taxes would go up 50 dollars a week, thats my entire grocery budget. What will I eat? They can not let the taxes go up. People will start setting things on fire.
BW Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Brown will lay it out so both choices (higer taxes, less services) are so disagreeable to clear the way for this?
http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokoukis/2010/12/07/secret-gop-plan-push-states-to-declare-bankruptcy-and-smash-unions/
Gianny Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
The state is insolvent!!! GO bankrupt already
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 7:49 am
California’s not insolvent at all, and is barred from going bankrupt.
BW Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
From above article,
“Indeed, legislation amending federal bankruptcy law is currently being prepared by congressional Republicans. Local municipalities do declare bankruptcy from time to time, most famously California’s Orange County in 1994. But states can’t. Allowing them the same ability to renegotiate obligations could enable them to slash public employees’ lavish benefits, a big factor in their financial woes”
Not saying it would be easy but, “Never say never”. We have a government full of politcians making and changing laws all the time, thats the only thing they’re good at.
wu ming Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
you sure do like to say welfare a lot, syn. why not just come out and say what you really want to say.
synonymouse Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Welfare equates to social spending, including education and entitlements. Out of that pot you will have to determine what is basic and essential and what is optional and supplemental. An example would be real, original Social Security which was conceived as a universal government administered pension program supported by beneficiaries. On the other hand, SSI is, imho, what most would consider welfare, ie. charity. How much charity you can afford depends on how rich you are. 3rd world countries have zippo benefits.
The classic Reaganites worry about a welfare life style that is an endless rut. My question to you is do you believe that is a myth? Have you ever watched Springer?
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Do you understand disability? It’s real.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Example of some SSI recipients I know: two people with severe and so-far-untreatable schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. They’d be taken care of in a state institution… if Reagan hadn’t shut all the state institutions. Without SSI they would wander the streets, hallucinating and starving. At least with SSI they stay put in their rooms hallucinating and decently fed.
What sort of a country do you want to live in, syn? We can damn well afford to take care of the disabled.
Spokker Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Very true. I’m sure if you took away this guy’s SSI check, he’d pull himself up from his bootstraps and make a million dollars.
http://savebabygorilla.com/images/ericthemidgetbed_425.jpg
Welfare is holding him back. He could take his club feet and oxygen tank and get a fucking job.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
The politically astute move is to act as if politicians don’t exist, make a credible promise to build a project that benefits the entire state and not provide pork, and then in parallel encourage a Democratic challenger to say that Republicans like McCarthy are trying to destroy a project that would benefit Bakersfield.
wu ming Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:50 pm
bakersfield isn’t anywhere near the reddest part of CA. i’ll bet the city of bakersfield is either lean dem or even, with the county being pretty conservative but still behind the northeast corner of the state up by lassen, or even the sacramento valley north of yolo (minus chico).
I hope per the Update’s that Bakersfield is included. Then with the San Jose to Fresno segment we might actually start running trains (I know modulo electrification, train-sets, maintenance facility, etc.)
I’d take the train to Fresno and Yosemite!
And, yeah sure, the US guvmint is going to let California hsr take money from the Chinese regime:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/12/09/china.media.blocked/?hpt=C2
randy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Last time I checked the Chinese were buying huge amounts of US treasury bonds. Isn’t that more than kind of the same thing?
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Depends on what kind of vigorish is expected from the loan. What kind of guarantee is attached to the payola and who is responsible for paying up for said guarantee. Is the property itself the collateral – in other words could the sovereign government of China foreclose?
Using fronts to launder sovereign funds is not going to sit well with the feds, especially if our relations with China sour more. Could the US government freeze or otherwise seize the Chines funds in case of hostilities? The grim IG Farben story illustrates the potential dangers of US companies, etc. getting involved with foreign commercial entities that are in reality sovereign controlled.
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Well if our own government wont give us the money, tough cookies with them. Pretty pathetic, but tough if we get money from China.
synonymouse Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
The US government is empowered to prevent a foreign government from purchasing US property if it is deemed to be against national security interests. Only the feds can do a treaty.
So is the loaning entity really private and independent, as in the US, or an arm of a foreign government.? You are asking for trouble.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
I doubt that having China own CA’s HSR system would be against our national security interests. What would happen if there was a war? Would HSR trains suddenly spontaneously combust? Doubtful. The most likely scenario would be that the system would be seized in order to ensure continued operations. It’s not like a plane or money that they could easily transfer out of the country.
wu ming Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
man, you really do not know anything about international investment.
A look at the hsiprapplist.pdf document, which shows all the ARRA HSIPR applications and awards and is available on the US DOT website, shows where the seemingly odd up to amounts come from.
Illinois for the Chicago to St Louis HSR between Alton and Dwight IL applied for $1,142,324,000 and was originally granted $1.1 billion even. The FRA press release lists IL as getting up to $42.3 million, exactly the difference between the request and what IL got. Other examples:
Maine for the Portland to New Brunswick extension requested $38,385,495 and got $35 million even. Now they are in line for up to $3.3 million.
Mass for the Knowledge corridor requested $72,888,305 and got $70 million even. Now they are in line for up to $2.8 million.
NC applied for the construction of 4 crossovers on the CSX A-line & NCR line requested $26,560,839 and go $25 million. Now they are in line for up to $1.5 million.
The California, New York, and Washington state amounts are much harder to sort out as they submitted multiple applications which were granted awards in a group, but the FRA presumably has the specific amounts figured out.
What LaHood and the FRA are doing is redistributing the funds to the already selected ARRA HSIPR projects with the contract vehicles in place – or very close to being completely in place – so they don’t have to expose the funds by starting new negotiations which will take months for other projects that did not selected back in January. Very astute move on their part, IMHO. I also would bet that if the work on the Alton to Dwight section and rolling stock purchases comes in at less than $1.142 billion, the FRA will (quietly) let Illinois shift the remaining funds to the other (not selected) sub-projects on the Chicago-StL corridor such as the siding between Dwight and Joliet, rehabilitation of 13 existing sidings on the entire corridor, or for upgrades on the Alton to St Louis section. Same goes for Washington State, Maine, and so on.
I would liked to have seen more of the funds go to IL and Michigan for the Chi-StL and Chi-Detroit corridors, PA for Keystone East, NY state, VA/NC for the SE HrSR (but the DC to Richmond to Raleigh sections don’t have other projects ready to go) as these would result in improved service in 2-3 years. The CA HSR project is the most important project for the long term as it would be the first 220 mph class longer range intercity service in the US, but LA to SF service is at least 10 years away. Still, the up to $624 million for the CA HSR project will help move that project further along.
I am now wondering if Van Ark & Co got a heads-up from LaHood that the $624M was going to happen, and that the route selection choice the day before Thanksgiving was based on this knowledge. Maybe this is why they weren’t prepared for the meeting last week, because the rationale behind the routing choice was moot, since it would end up being extended to Bako anyway.
I am probably giving Van Ark way too much credit.
J. Wong Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
You’re giving everyone way too much credit.
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
You might have hit the nail on the head. It will fall into place if the $624M+the otriginal amount does finish the track all the way to Bakersfield. Score!!
Elizabeth Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Don’t get too excited. The Corcoran aerial will eat up $1 billion.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
If they actually end up with a Corcoran aerial.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
why would they even need an aerial there. Seems wasteful.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Protecting wetlands, it seems.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
I don’t think trains really hurt wetlands though. To be honest, wetlands in the valley are really just wet muddy, areas and ponds and stuff. They are everywhere. highways run through them, houses are built next to them, they get converted to rice fields, and are used as flood over flow areas.
Joey Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Muddy and abused as they are, they’re still ecologically sensitive and valuable areas.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
I guess they are valuable if you are in the mudpie business… lol
BruceMcF Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Or in the business of drinking water, eating food, and breathing air.
And the fact that CV wetlands are stressed all the time does not make it less important to preserve what exists, it makes it more important.
What I wonder is whether they have the most capital efficient means of protecting the wetlands. It seems that a low berm on a sufficiently water permeable coarse gravel fill might be more capital effective.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
They’re not planning an aerial through whatever wetlands are there, but mostly at-grade, after all, by the way.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
It seems that a low berm on a sufficiently water permeable coarse gravel fill might be more capital effective”
seriously, seems that way to me too. its pretty benign. I mean they have trains running through wetlands freakin all over the state already. the starlight runs through em, the ccjpa runs through em, the sjq runs through em.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
It also depends on what types of animals use the area. If there are land predators, a berm or at-grade alignment would sever their habitat. The French have those “nature overpasses” for animals to cross over railroad ROWs. We’d probably have to build those as well so that they could continue to access their entire habitat..
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
It also depends on what types of animals use the area. If there are land predators, a berm or at-grade alignment would sever their habitat. The French have those “nature overpasses” for animals to cross over railroad ROWs. We’d probably have to build those as well so that they could continue to access their entire habitat
and then we could attach those fastrak transponders to the foxes so they’d pay toll everytime they used the underpass. That would cover the cost. Of course, if they are working class foxes, I’d be opposed to that.
Joey Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Jim, all the ROWs that Amtrak runs on are not protected at all. HSR will be completely fenced off. It’s not water we’re concerned with here, it’s wildlife.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
whatever. don’t care.
Joey Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
Is that the best you can come up with? I’m surprised at your apathy toward environmental concerns, especially since habitat preservation is arguably even more important than a marginal (if that) reduction in carbon dioxide emissions.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
I live in san francisco and grew up here in northern california – 46 years now – and as much as I love the states natural beauty and was raised to respect it.. I’m up to here^ with knee jerk yammering about the “environment”
I mean you have people who would just as soon remove all people and return the state to 5000BC.
You have to balance the issues.
That patch of land out there in corcoran isn’t gonna suffer if they run a train thru it.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
There’s a lot more to the environment than “natural beauty”. It’s like the people who only care about protecting the cuddly animals like seals, but fail to protect the seals’ food supply, and the seals end up starving. Those spiders and cockroaches you talked trash about below are very important to the environment, too.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
well if they come in my house they get the raid.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 6:51 am
There’s a lot of cute and cuddlies environmentalism, but the serious issue is that we’re overstretching our life support system, and when infrastructure contributes to the overstretch, that’s a real, direct cost.
And of course highways are often grandfathered in from taking those costs into account ~ yet another one of the subsidies to roadworks in the US ~ so we don’t have as much experience in doing it efficiently as we ought to do, but it still doesn’t have to be very high to have the wildlife equivalent of a set of pedestrian subways available at appropriate intervals.
Of course, capital efficiency is knowledge and time intensive ~ the system that can get cleared without as much detailed knowledge of the problem being solved and without as much time spent on the design is going to be another tribute to the cement industry.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
Wetlands clean the water. They act as flood overflow areas. Filling them is generally a major mistake.
I live in a town where the downtown is entirely built in a former wetland. There is absolutely no way to fix the problems arising from that.
I agree with Bruce — if it’s possible to design a permeable at-grade design, that would be good. I suspect the problem is that such a design would self-destruct at high speed.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
“and are used as flood over flow areas.”
That’s one of their purposes, and a very important one at that. Other purposes: resting area for migrating birds (who would die out if they didn’t have resting areas with food and water), nesting areas for non-migratory birds (who lose habitat every time one of the events you mentioned take place, and habitat for many other species, including endangered ones, such as San Joaquin Kit Fox, although I’m not sure whether those foxes lives in that area.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
oh yeh those foxes live in that area, but they don’t live in the wetlands, they live in mobile home parks.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
I just checked, and the San Joaquin Kit Fox is listed as living in the Corcoran area.
Also, the aerial is for the alternative going through the town east of the BNSF alignment. The at-grade option is the bypass, which goes through the wetlands.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
I don’t see where the train goes through the drywetlands first of all, and if it follows the bnsf then the train is already there as is the highway.
Birds rest next to the highways all the time. So they can rest next to the train to. Besides not everyone is all that fond of birds anyway
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
these folks would welcome the train no doubt.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
I’m not able to find where the wetlands are there either.
I personally favor the Corcoran bypass myself, as it has the following advantages: 1) it’s the cheapest option in terms of both capital and maintenance costs, 2) it’s the fastest (saves 4.5 seconds, whoo!), 3) it avoids the impacts to Corcoran itself.
As for your last statement, I’m not fond of cockroaches and spiders myself. That does not mean that they’re not an integral part of our quite fragile ecology.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
yeh hopefully the train will kill all the spiders. That would help eliminate the birds thus making the drywetlands a non issue and saving a billion dollars!
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 6:37 am
Great, the HSR will kill off all the spiders and bring on a plague of flies ~ that’s just the threat that the HSR deniers need, one of the biblical plagues.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
it just looks like this>/a>. I think they can do it at grade similar to that.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
The cows sit right up against the LGV in France!! I saw them..
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
but were the cows happy like ours?
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
How can you tell if the cows are happy or not? We have plenty among the orchards and farms (that are left) around here, and what stands out is that their faces have this expressionless expression on them. You stop to look at them, and they just look at you. My wife says she thinks they are saying, in effect, “What’s the matter with you? Haven’t you seen a cow before?”
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
yes thats what they are saying. I know that look. This is one of the many reasons our cows are happy.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho!! That’s good, I’ll have to let my wife see that one and what looks like some others in the series. She thinks cows are cute. Why, I don’t know; thought cute also usually meant “small,” as a cottage would be, but cows aren’t what I would call “small.”
Funny thing, she thinks my steam locomotives are cute, too, even if they are painted black, stand almost two stories tall, weigh over 400 tons, and shake the earth and talk louder than the Fourth of July when they run.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
oh yeah its a whole series… you gotta watch em all. especially the auditions like this sarah palin cow lol
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
hey DP you’ll like this best for sure.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho!! I can identify with that in two ways.
First, I am old enough to qualify for my state retirement pension, but can’t afford it, the pension doesn’t pay enough by itself; I have another 7 years to go before I can get Social Security, and at reduced rates at that (I’m 55).
Second, I have a neighbor across the street, who is a great animal lover; she has 2 goats, a miniature horse, a pony, 2 cats, and over 30 dogs (she now is running a dog adoption shelter there.) She also has a chicken house, with about 20 or so chickens busy laying eggs, and a rooster or two to keep them company. We hear that rooster!
The hen house is about 80 years old, the same as her house proper; both structures date to when it was common for people to keep chickens at home for fresh meat and eggs, in the days before refrigeration. My own house had a hen house as well, until the last owner before me decided he would rather have a somewhat cheaply built garage in its place. My house dates to 1925, and is what I consider a “modern” house, at least when compared with the houses I lived in with my parents before I got married; one was built in 1899 in a trolley suburb, and the other dated to the 1840s, predating the railroad that ran next to it by a decade or more, and the brick street in front of it by the better part of a century.
Compared with those, I have a modern house!
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
These have to be the driest wetlands I have ever seen!!
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
why don’t they just stay on the bnsf row. Will the train noise disturb the inmates?
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
actually if they didn’t want to go right thru town on bnsf they can veer over on 43 and back
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Wetlands do not always have to be wet to serve their purpose.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
They are often seasonally wet.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
It’s hard to say, really. If I were him, I would have built only south of Fresno had I known this extra windfall was coming. Mainly because I’d want more time to examine the use of the huge viaducts through Fresno. Secondly, you could satisfy the independent utility portion more easily.
Walter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
This makes sense. At the very least, they don’t have to build a station in Hanford anymore. Fresno to Bakersfield has independent utility–no doubt about that. And if they don’t build the Kings Station or whatever (and I hope they don’t), that money can be applied to the station in Bako. We might have enough dough for a Madera to Bakersfield stretch with stations in Fresno and Bako. This would be the test track Van Ark wants and put the system within striking distance of both the Bay Area and LA. Here’s hoping.
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
I agree, kill the Hanford station and lay more track and build into Bako.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:20 am
They certainly can’t get into Bakersfield with a Bakersfield Station for that extra money.
At least this is welcome news for the California HSR project. It is just too bad for Ohio and Winsconsin. We will see in the coming months and years on whether the millions won by California will be put to use in building the HSR system.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
We sure arent building chopped liver!!! just like Californiareal cheese were building a real HSR system…I cant wait to see those 2 morons Governors faces in 2020 when we cut the ribbion at TBT! THANK YOU
elfling Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:56 am
We can run tourism ads there once the project is done, inviting them to come visit and ride our train…
Here is some food for thought where the $624M funds might be directed.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Wow. This old application tells you exactly how much costs have escalated.
The Fresno- Bakersfield segment in this document came back to life as Options 2a/2b – 98 miles from south of Fresno to north of Bakersfield. It is very comparable. 8 more miles, but no hanford station.
Cost in 2009 for this project: $1.639 bn (YOE)
Cost in 2010 for this project: $4.3 bn or $3.5 bn YOE – depending on Corcanan wetlands issue
So what is the grand total for the whole project now??
Eric M Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
Technically, costs have not escalated. Bidding has not opened up and no bids have come in.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Okay. Estimates have escalated by more than 100%.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
Whatever it is, it’s still less than the cost of doing nothing…..
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
Well there’s macro-economic genius for you right there.
… it’s still less than the cost of doing nothing
Uh, no.
Contractors (transit-industrial or military-industrial, whatever) who know what a specified project will be undertaken regardless of the benefits or costs are no dummies.
On the other hand, if there’s even the slightest threat that United States Dollars are, well, fungible currency and that projects might get cancelled if they fail to measure up against sewers or schools or parks or public safety or environmental protection or scientific research or …, well, incredibly enough, amazingly enough, it turns out that the cost of doing something all of a sudden takes a precipitous fall. Weird, huh?
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Um, no. The ARC cancellation in Jersey hasn’t led to any cost reductions so far. The local contractors haven’t lowered their bids on either New Jersey or New York projects. The highway widening projects cost the same as before, the counter-proposal to extend the subway to Jersey cost about the same as you’d expect from ARC minus the cavern, and the $16 billion 5-km Tappan Zee Bridge replacement is still $16 billion. (How the hell does a friggin’ bridge cost $3 billion per km?)
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
It’s only 6 billion for the bridge, the other 10 billion is carving new ROW through Rockland and Westchester. Connecting the Port Jervis line to the Harlem Line ( yes the Harlem line not the Hudson line ) ain’t gonna be cheap. Or dedicated lanes of BRT.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
“Only” 6 billion? The Oresund Bridge-Tunnel complex cost 5, and that was for a bridge nearly twice as long, an artificial island in the middle, and a tunnel nearly as long as the TZ Bridge.
A tunnel from Tarrytown to White Plains would be $2 billion at most anywhere outside the US. Nor would it be done unless Tarrytown and White Plains were actual transit destinations and not collections of parking garages with a few office buildings sprinkled here and there.
Risenmessiah Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 2:01 am
I don’t think you get it Richard. This isn’t a sewer project. This isn’t even a dam. This is a unique project. Costs like this are always going to balloon. Elizabeth’s rhetoric is ridiculous. As if there is a point in which HSR costs so much that everyone will turn on the project. Sheesh.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:21 am
And we don’t even know that costs have gone anywhere, it seems likely that they have set the contingencies for the first segment higher, as they ought to do, since the first segment to break ground will indeed have more uncertainties than when they are budgeting the next segments.
Drunk Engineer Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Why?
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Because the following segments can use the first segment as part of their precedent, and the closer the precedent to the characteristics of the project being performed, the lower the contingency on the budget prediction.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 11:12 am
As far as we know (waiting on HSR to respond to our public records request for the last detialed budgets), the contingencies have actually shrunk. One difference is that last years figures assumed only 14 miles of aerial structure from greater fresno to greater bakersfield and this year they assume 56.
Last year’s numbers had what seem like indefensible assumptions in them that kept the cost estimates low. Someone should be looking into this.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Nobpdy has ever erected concrete viaducts, moved earth into berms, excavated trenches, slip-formed concrete, poured foundations, erected steel, laid power cables, laid communications cables or transported gravel ever before in California. It’s all scary unknown territory!
Of course they are. Because there’s a project that the proponents (ie the contracting mafioso) have financially and politically engineered to proceed regardless of the cost. That’s the whole point.
Speaking of which, just how’s that San Francisco Bay Bridge East Span doing anyway? The one I and others predicted at the time would at least would double in cost — and for which MTC executive director, former Kopp staffer and Kopp go-to boy Steve Heminger has still not been indicted? The project that went 500% over budget? Same house, same call.
But that’s not a dam or a sewer either, so I guess unexpected cost overruns just can’t be helped.
jimsf Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:39 am
Richard what you say is true. The point is that thats how business is done in america and there’s nothing you can do about it. Business, even pulbic works, is business and its about making money. IF it werent’ for that, nothing at all would get done. If the big businesses who profit off these projects didn’t have a chance to to make those profits. No one would do the work.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 10:21 am
How come water tunnels get completed on-time and on-budget, even in the city of $16 billion bridges and $8 billion station approach tunnels?
thatbruce Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
A smaller bore (generally) and a lack of various things to make them safe for people to travel through/over.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Oh, I know that. I’m not saying they should build train tunnels for the same cost as water tunnels. I’m complaining that water tunnel projects cost the same as elsewhere and stay within budget decades after they start, whereas transportation projects do not.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
If you are going to spend 50 years building Water Tunnel 3 that gives you a lot of leverage over the contractors.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Yep. If we stretched the transpo projects out to 50-year timeframes they might appear to be done on-time and on-budget. (Though seriously, I’m not at all sure it’s really on budget – - 50 years allows for a lot of fudging with accounting.)
I glad I was a Hilary supporter and so was my union. Now the country sees the mistake it made. I knew he was the wrong guy for the job.
Hilary in 2010.
Dan S. Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Well, that presidential term is 4 years, so the jury’s still out. I took a long time to choose between the two of them myself, and went for the audacity. But I can’t help but say now that the audacity has left the building. We’ll see, he’s only halfway there, and his numbers are about the same as the midterm results for Clinton (Bill) and Reagan. The real mistake the country could have made was McCain / Palin, though, you’ve gotta admit that!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
I concur with Dan; Obama’s well short of perfect, but far preferable to what the Republicans had to offer in 2008, and in my opinion that still holds today!
Now, if he would get some of that audacity back. . .
I remember Obama stating, at the time of his winning the election, that we could expect that things would not necessarily get better in one year, or even in one administration. One of the things I wish he would do would be to revisit that, and can the “happy talk” nonsense some other people have been shooting off about how the economy is moving in the right direction. The indicators for money would suggest so, but I am convinced they no longer measure reality as well as they once did. I would love to hear him say that the toughest part of our recovery is ahead of us, that we are really just starting into what I think is a 10-year slog to correct a lot of problems that developed over the last 30-odd years. That would be an honest assessment of our situation, at least in my opinion.
If I have any disappointments in him currently, it is that he is “too conservative,” in other words, too cautious. We need a bold and honest assessment of the changes this country needs, and we (and he) can make an almost bulletproof case against the Republican-conservative crowd. In fact, I think such an approach would also win over some those Republican-conservatives, though obviously nothing like all of them.
Heck, I’m old-fashioned enough that I should be a Republican, and once was for 10 years, but I got so disappointed in how they failed to live up to their own billing, not to mention the stupid opinions they had, that I went back to being independent. It’s a good place, with the luxury of being able to throw rocks or roses in either direction in good conscience–and sometimes to throw both rocks and roses in the same direction at the same time!
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
yeh well. Like the union rep said, “he wo’t last one round against the republicans, we need a fighter not a poet” Hilary was the fighter we could have used right now.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
Hillary didn’t care one bit about HSR.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 5:13 am
And each of their positions on HSR and transportation is exactly why I voted for Obama.
We’re halfway through Obama’s first term. Only time will tell if he will return to support for HSR. And, if he does, will he be acused of being a flip-flopper.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:23 am
$1b in annual funding is what the White House has always proposed. The $8b in ARRA was stimulus funds that were going to be left to the discretion of the DoT, and committing them to HSR was a way to avoid a catfight. The annual appropriation upgrade came from the House and Senate.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:38 pm
It really shouldn’t take too much to fight in this case. Just present the evidence, and don’t lie; let the evidence speak for you, ask embarrassing questions of the people who question your evidence. As I have noted elsewhere, in some cases the Republicans have practically been giving you the ammunition you need. How hard could it be to speak the truth this way?
Having said that, I am still amazed and curious as to why the political supporters of HSR and rail in general only speak in the most general generalities, when little amatuer me can almost rattle off the specific numbers on auto subsidies in my sleep. Again, how hard is it to tell the truth?
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
No .. the high-speed rail president is in the White House.. you never heard a word from Hillary about high-speed rail and she is more like Boxer.. worry about other issues healthcare and the environment .HSR is something nice but nothing that really drives themthe only person I ever seen really supporting is Dianne Feinstein.. Sen. Boxer does sit on a key committee for transportation and now that she’s been reelected she better fight like hell to get the money for our high-speed rail
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
its not high speed rail im concerned with its everything else. This president has backed down on every single fight. Its one thing to compromise after hard fought battle. But he just rolls over. He’s weak. The left is gonna run someone against him in 2012 and split the democratic vote.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
I was disappointed in Bill Clinton on this rail subject as well. I have to think it may be part of that generational pattern we have discussed here in the past. Mr. Clinton is the same age as George W. Bush (63? 64?), and is a bit over the low-end border of that pro-car generation aged 60 or so to 90. Mr. Obama is, what, 48 or 49, well under the generational break line. This isn’t necessarilly all of it, but I think it is a factor.
My wife tries to quiet me down, saying “You have something with Obama; you wouldn’t have gotten anything if the Republicans had won.” Of course, it still doesn’t quiet me down much, but it is something to keep in mind.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Id give anything to have Bill Clinton back.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
can he not run again?
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
I don’t think he can. two terms right? or is it two consecutive terms ? Anyway, now he’s too old and probably having way too much fun in private life to wanna do it.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:24 am
Two terms. “consecutive terms” is the term limit in a lot of states with Governors/Legislator term limits, but the Constitutional Amendment is two terms, period.
Paul H. Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
No you wouldn’t. Bill would have shit bricks worst than Obama with this economy. The right man is in the Oval Office. None of us have ever personally seen this country in this kind of economic situation, and the fact that the President’s numbers are still holding up is telling. Liberals need to chill out, Obama got handed the worst situation possibly in US history (Not even FDR had two wars to deal with, nor this crazy 24/7 news media bullshit).
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Given that Bill helped set this whole thing in motion by letting banks take all the money ordinary people were depositing with them and dump it all in the latest hair-brained investment scheme that looked great on paper but had no real investment value.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
I liked clintons style though and I don’t like obama’s.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
I voted for obama specifically because I thought he would do a “new deal” for infrastructure ( not the lame stimulus we got) a public option for health care, ( though what we got is an improvement) and the elimination of DADT and DOMA.
He’s got 23 more months. So far he has pissed off the right, pissed of the left, and pissed of the middle.
OF course a lot can happen in two years. But right now when I see him speak up on tv, I realize I don’t have nearly the respect for him that I’d hoped to have.
Joey Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Ironically, he’s tried so hard not to piss anyone off that he’s pissed everyone off.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
That is ironic when you put it that way. Yet it is true.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:19 pm
Very Very true Paul.. he has inherited the worst economy since the Depression and everyone expected him to wave his magic wand and all will be well.. but we live in what is now the very impatient nation that demands instant results just like this crazy news media. The truth is the last 15 years the economy has been supported by building big-box stores and McMansions on cheap credit all that is now gone it’s going to be a number of years before it gets back to anything and hopefully not like it was. People use their homes as someone stated on this website as piggy banks and not homes to ever pay off and live in.Now gas is now going above three dollars a gallon everywhere you just cannot drive 65 miles to live in some suburban subdivision and afford everything.
wu ming Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
what, not enough deregulation for you?
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Seriously.
wu ming Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:59 pm
if you think hillary’s a fighter, you didn’t pay much attention to her time in the senate.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 10:00 am
She’s a hedge fund Democrat, just like President Clinton and President Obama ~ the difference between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama was not ideology.
But in terms of how scrappy Senators Obama and Clinton were, I’d give the contest to Senator Clinton on points.
jimsf Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 8:47 am
Thats what I mean.
Nathanael Reply:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
I don’t think there’s any evidence that the Secretary of State would have done any differently from the President.
Let’s try someone else next time.
THey knew too
The new money is really good news.
I suspect the recommendation to use funding toward an extension to Bakersfield by the USDOT or whatever Federal Dept, is in part or in whole, to avoid the whole question right now concerning the Chowchilla/Pacheco Wye. It defers the question to a later date.
A Modesto extension would require provisions for the wye, while an extension to Bakersfield would not.
Of course, Cardosa – or whatever his name is- probably has an opinion on this and I wouldn’t be suprised if we here from him soon.
Jack In Fresno Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Elizabeth has the right of it, they are not going to touch the wye, nothing will be built north of the wye. Castle can write 3,000 word diatribes till the cows come how it’s not going to change anything.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
The whole alignment north of Fresno is in flux nothing has been decided and nothing will be ready for the funding deadline
BruceMcF Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Nothing in the last two weeks has changed regarding settling the Wye alignment, and without the Wye alignment settled, they’ll spend the money to go south.
If the Corcoran aerial is estimated at ~$1b, and this is “up to $624m”, then with a 60:40 match that’s a total project funding of ~$1b.
Where is the next aerial south of Corcoran ~ Bakersfield City? It seems like if they can get over the aerial they can keep applying to extend it even if there is a fairly small appropriation over the next two years.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
And there is a least 1Billion for HSR in 2012..maby more if Boxer can get off her ass
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:50 pm
sorry 2011..
Clem Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 7:59 am
Technically, nothing is settled about whether there will even be a wye anywhere near Chowchilla.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:26 am
Yes, technically. Its only a technicality, but the fact that the technicality is not settled is one reason why the Wye alignment cannot be finalized. So in addition to UP, Merced can also add Peninsula NIMBY’s to a higher position on their shitlist than CHSRA.
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Well I guess Cordoza’s letter to LaHood didn’t work. It’s great that the DOT is recommending going south instead of north. This legitimizes Van Ark’s previous decision and bails them out of making another decision with the $624M.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
I really don’t have anything against the Fresno to Merced section outside of the fact that it’s nowhere near ready it’s almost as bad as San Jose to San Francisco with three or four route alternatives still under consideration trying to sweep around the Madera and then of course the Union Pacific certainly nothing to put our first initial funding in to get stuck in a quagmire .When the issues are straightened it will come online with the rest of phase 1.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 8:30 am
As Clem notes, the EIR on the SF/SJ is still in process following the failed effort to quash it in court that succeeded in catching a few uncrossed eyes and undotted tees. So technically the target destination for the SJ side of the Wye is not yet finalized, let alone the precise location of the Wye give a SJ destination.
At least now we won’t be competing with Florida any longer for federal funding.
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
Yep, good point. I don’t see FL raising any state funds for the Miami leg until after the Orlando-Tampa thing is done. Now our biggest competition would be if the NEC gets its act together.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
And if that newly elected Gov. in Florida pulls some bonehead move like Ohio and Wisconsin that could be quite a nice little nest egg coming.
Victor Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
Yep, Florida now has all they need, Now If they wanted to go to Miami, Then It might be different, But for the moment they don’t It seems.
Peter Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
It’ll be years before they’re ready to start financing the extension to Miami.
Brian Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 4:21 am
FL has already started a 2-3 yr FEIS process for the Orlando-Miami route with a combination of state and federal money received back in May (and more funds in 2011 and 2012). They are hoping to apply for funding for the Miami route by 2013 or 2014 with construction starting in 2016. FL definitely does want to go to Miami, that has always been the plan. After Miami, the next link will be Orlando to Jacksonville probably in 20 years, realistically.
Donk Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:00 am
Working on the FEIR is one thing. Applying for federal funding is also great. But the challenge is coming up with state matching funds on the scale needed for the Orlando-Miami leg. What is the cost estimate on that? $20B? So is FL going to come up with $4B or are you thinking outside investors?
Brian Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:52 am
With Rick Scott as govenor until 2015 at least, I would plan on FLHSR rail looking at private financing for alot more of the costs for the Miami leg. What I have read is that FL plans on sweetening the pot for whoever wins the bid to build Orlando-Tampa to have first rights to build/operate Orlando-Miami. Preliminary cost estimates for ORL to MIA have been in the $8-9 billion dollar range. It is about 3 times the length of the 1st segment and the route faces similar geography and construction issues. I honestly don’t expect work to began on that section until 2018-2020 time period. I think our new Republican govenor will not allocate more state funds while he is in office or will find a different way to share the risk with private investors.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:58 am
Long term, its not CA/FL rivalry for a fixed amount of funds, its cooperation to make sure that sufficient Federal funds are available.
For Florida, if they get the system up and running, they’ll be in a position to project operating surpluses and work out how much of the state match can be done with revenue bonding and how much of the state match needs to be done with general fund bonds.
Peter Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Agreed, assuring continuing federal investment should be our long-term goal. In the short-term, though, it’s a playground fight for whatever we can get.
Brian Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 10:55 am
I don’t think it will be rivalry either. I am more troubled by the lack of inspiration our leaders have shown (federal and state). Although our state republican party leaders (not Gov Scott) have shown committment in the past year or so to getting this on track. If the federal gov’t can fund 2-3B per year the next 10-15 years then both FL and CA will be ok. I too am hopeful that once the first segment is running and profitable, then it will become easier to obtain funding for the next phases.
A bit off topic, but there is a site in the Philadelphia area run by a guy who has a thing about diners, and how things used to be. Turns out he likes trains, too, and thinks we’ll need them when the gas gets too pricey, which it is on its way to doing again. A couple of links:
http://www.roadsideonline.com/roadside-wire/84-ride-trains/6853-ride-trains-more-evidence-of-the-passenger-rail-revival
Home page:
http://www.roadsideonline.com/
Oil:
http://www.roadsideonline.com/the-countertop/66-walkable-communities/6725-oil-on-our-hands
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
Sorry to be a d*ck, but honestly, this isn’t a train foamers site, it is a site about CA HSR. Why do you have to post this sort of stuff here all the time. There are already like 200 posts to go through, if you want to post stuff about diner cars in choo choo trains, post them on the choo choo train site.
jimsf Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:16 pm
HSr is a train. and all this is an hsr foamer site. Nothing discussed here means anything. No one in any position of power cares what hsr foamers think. We post here and discuss hsr the way you sit around with friends and talk about what you’d do if you won the lottery. Its just a way to bs and pass time. The way some people talk about sports. nothing wrong with a little diversion and or humour once in while between in between the arguments/information/good news/bad news/and opinions.
This is blog with a conversational tone. And when people talk, one thing leads to another. Then it gets back on track. And looking back at history gives perspective. So don’t be sorry to be a dick, just don’t be one.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Thanks, Jim.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
Couple of reasons, actually. One, the past is important in that you learn from it. We didn’t just come here overnight. There are many things from the past worthy to emulate, and others to avoid.
We also have a history of commercial interests that actively worked to kill rail in the past, and are still working to do so now; we don’t want to be blind to that. This is important in that we also once lead the world in high-speed operations, strongly influencing (with others) the Japanese in the original Shinkansen line. It was at the very least a tragic mistake, at worst a horrible travesty, a crime, that we discarded what we had.
Finally, in the case of the posts in regard to Roadside above, I thought you might be interested to know you are not alone; many others wish to see rail come back, both in local and regional forms (including a revival of interurbans), and in high speed, too; I think we will need them all, with the oil situation going the way it is.
You–we–need all the help we can get, both from those following you at a distance and next door, and even, if quite ironically, from boneheaded governors in other states throwing their rail money away.
Have fun.
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
I like your old train links..did not know there was SO much on you-tube..watched a good 1hour or more with that Superchief link you had!!! then went to bed dreaming I was in a roomette waitng for Breakfast in Flagstaff!!
D. P. Lubic Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
And thank you too, for your kind words. That pro-car, anti-rail crowd doesn’t know what it’s been missing all these years. . .
Donk Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
My problem is with the posts that are completely off topic, with little relevance to HSR, and only about some neat choo choo train that only train foamers who dream about the olden days care about. At least you prefaced your post with “a bit off topic”. But this is getting ridiculous – huge news hit the wire today about the transfer of funds from WI and OH and here we go again with choo choo trains. I am all for diversion and humor and take part in this somewhat as well, but this pointless jabber is keeping people with relevant points to make from bothering to read the comments and post what they have to say.
Jimsf, you are one of the few people here who uses this site as a place to bs and pass the time like it is your living room. You have a lot of great things to say when it is relevant, but nobody here wants to hear about what cereal you had for breakfast.
I can guarantee you that I am in the silent majority on this one, I am just the only one who is a big enough asshole to say anything about it.
jimsf Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 5:04 am
well ok ( but I swear I haven’t had cereal in months) Most of my posts are just defending my opinion. I’m a huge supporter of hsr in cali, and probably less critical and more accepting of how things are being done than anyone here. But, if you dare to not tow the liberal progressive line with an opinion around here you get piled on. Or if you if say something nice about something (central subway/transbay terminal/bart/muni/advocate for parking at hsr stations/or point out that not everyone is as gung ho about every little envoronmental thing) you start to feel like a democrat at a tea party rally.
(And since I live in a studio apt. this blog is in my living room!)
YesonHSR Reply:
December 9th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
OOO now…its cool looking at the America that was before 8 lane freeways!!.. Funny you mention the choo-choo type train site, I sometimes visit some of them and you should see some of the posts from those people about high-speed rail you would think its right out of McCain railfan book.. they all sound like a bunch of teabaggers or one of those governors in ohio or Wisconsin!! Truly bizarre for a pro-passenger webpages.. actually I see a name from TRAC/RAILPAC, on one of them and he always has some degrading high-speed rail remarks about the project here in California. So the “foamers” have more than a few anti-HSR types creeping among them
James Fujita Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 12:38 am
I’m definitely p.o’ed at TRAC for the stance that they’ve taken on Cal HSR. They’ve basically made a deal with the Peninsula devil, fighting for Altamont while presenting plenty of criticism of true high-speed rail… criticism which appears in newspaper racks at almost every Amtrak station!
While I can certainly sympathize with the “been down so long, looks like up to me” negative attitude of the pro-Amtrak crowd…. we’ve been fighting for ages for breadcrumbs, and now here comes the “rich new guy” in town… HOWEVER, I’ve always felt that a rising HSR tide lifts all trains (if you’ll pardon the mixed metaphor)
Dan S. Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 12:02 am
Yea, sometimes we get some pretty off-topic posts here. The old steam-trains from around the country variety aren’t really my cup of tea either, but if I can visually squelch RM’s inane rantings and synonymouse’s endless regurgitations, then I guess I’m fine with a little train nostalgia once in a while. I still think the S/N ratio is pretty good around here!
Spokker Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 4:26 am
You can say “dick,” dick.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 7:52 am
His posts are welcome on this site.
Here’s a doc I came across that might be of interest concerning transportation funding in california. I don’t know what it means and I don’t have time to read it but it looks like its full of pertinent informationabout transportation stuff
According to the Fresno Bee, this extra money requires a 50-50 match. I presume that’s because it is from the original ARRA funds? That would give an extra 1.1 billion towards connecting to Bakersfield.
Peter Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:43 am
Bleh, I meant $1.2 billion.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Correct, it does require a 50-50 match. It does help get things closer to Bakersfield.
One thing that needs to be kept in mind, and this goes to Elizabeth’s efforts to make it sound like “costs” are soaring, is that the timeline for this project is not unfolding as it would for other similar projects thanks to the stimulus deadlines. While the Authority is still making the final determinations about what gets built where – meaning that from year to year, month to month, even week to week the cost estimates can change as alternatives are proposed, refined, and sometimes (and always out of necessity) changed, they also have to go get money based on these unfinished plans. It makes the project look bad, but it’s not their fault – if they don’t go for stimulus funds now, they would lose out, and $3 billion+ in federal funding is not something they can afford to abandon.
It would be better if the CHSRA didn’t have to make funding requests until every last piece of project design was done, but Obama and the Congress did not give them that option. So it is unfair and inaccurate to claim, as some do, that the fact that estimates and project segment definitions are changing is somehow a sign of a bad project.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 11:16 am
It is not “my efforts.” The cost estimate for the Central Valley is at least double what it was a year ago.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 11:38 am
My point is that because the project is not at final design, these changes are going to happen. The overall goal here is to find the best route and vertical alignment, and then fund that design.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Ok fine. Everyone though needs to be on the same page that we are now looking at a $60+ billion project. That fact is what is changing the scope to SJ – Sylmar.
Elizabeth Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
My other point is that most of things driving higher costs could have and should have been known y last year. The big changes in cost have not been in the finer details but in the big picture stuff that could have been arrived at spending a couple of hours with google maps.
From Bakersfield.com:
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Eric M Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 11:30 am
And if we got the rest of the money tomorrow, I am sure she would find another problem.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 10th, 2010 at 11:37 am
Yep.