The Fresno Bee’s Look at the HSR Ridership Numbers
Tim Sheehan at the Fresno Bee has an important article on the debate over the high speed rail ridership numbers. The article is very valuable in showing the flaws in assuming numbers produced for an EIR can serve the needs of a revenue forecast. But it also repeats some things about the ridership study – and about the Berkeley ITS report – that are simply not accurate. Here’s the set-up:
Rail officials say the ambitious projections were not meant to forecast revenue. Rather, they were developed to help planners account for the harshest possible effect of the system on the environment, they say. That means the numbers needed to be as high as could reasonably be expected.
It’s far too early to make accurate revenue projections, said Jeffrey Barker, the authority’s deputy director — but the authority felt pressured by lawmakers to do so.
“The Legislature told the authority they wanted us to discuss revenue projections in our business plan, so it forced a premature discussion,” Barker said.
Now those projections are coming under fire from critics and lawmakers, threatening legislative support for high-speed rail and fueling skepticism about its economic viability.
In many respects, it’s the Legislature that is at fault here. Ridership modeling is not an easy thing to do and it’s not a quick thing to do. Demanding a fully worked-out plan be delivered immediately, as the Legislature did in 2008 and again in 2009, doesn’t make a lot of sense and isn’t going to produce the best results – particularly when the same Legislature has failed to deliver on-time budgets to fund the Authority’s work. But the Legislature demanded it anyway, so the CHSRA had to comply with what they had available – and that was the 2005 study done by Cambridge Systematics.
That’s not to say the study is flawed, as critics charge. What it does mean is that a revenue forecast requires more time and more careful work if it is to be gotten right – and that the Legislature ought to help make that happen, rather than causing more problems through unreasonable demands based on uninformed speculation.
What’s fueling this, of course, is Senator Alan Lowenthal’s embrace of right-wing anti-passenger rail talking points, notoriously saying at once point that the ridership numbers “don’t pass the smell test.” Here’s what he said at a recent committee hearing:
Even legislators who support the system are skeptical about the projections.
“For this project to succeed, it must be financially sound,” Lowenthal said in the committee hearing.
But because of the uncertainty of the projections, among other things, Lowenthal added, “in my opinion, the jury is still out.”
Lowenthal apparently has not been to Europe or Japan, where passenger rail ridership is very high – and got there very quickly. Spain’s AVE link between Madrid and Barcelona saw rapid ridership growth as soon as it opened in 2008 – taking passengers from one of the world’s busiest air routes. He, like other HSR critics, simply cannot imagine that a lot of Californians will ride the trains. They’re convinced that unlike other HSR systems around the world, operations will need an ongoing public subsidy because for some reason, Californians prefer to be sexually assaulted or be photographed in the nude in order to fly, or prefer to spend a lot of money at the pump and a lot of time stuck in a car, unable to use their digital devices or get other work done.
But because of this pervasive, inaccurate, and uninformed speculation that somehow California won’t have the same levels of ridership as other countries, the CHSRA is constantly forced to justify its plans in the face of such baseless skepticism. Unfortunately that skepticism will not change until the trains are actually operating and in service.
Until then, the CHSRA is taking a very positive approach to these issues, welcoming public scrutiny and inviting others to replicate their findings:
Barker said the current ridership-prediction model is good for evaluating the maximum environmental effects, but it isn’t designed for providing the finer estimates needed by investors who will be sought to put up the money to build and buy the trains and take on the financial risk of operating the passenger service….
“We are continuing to refine the inputs to the model, and that’s going to take a couple of years,” Barker said. “When we get to that stage, that’s when we’ll be using the projections to lure private investment.”
That’s the right answer, and the Legislature is not helping matters by freaking out and trying to rush the process along. The specific revenue models that the trains will use will not be finalized until soon before the trains begin revenue service. There can be reasonable projections before then – and while I believe the Cambridge Systematics numbers are entirely reasonable, since HSR will be a godsend for a state needing fast, affordable transportation alternatives to oil-based methods and will help spur a boom in the Valley cities it serves, I’m also willing to let the CHSRA get those projections right. Senator Alan Lowenthal, who is termed out in two years, should be willing to let that happen, instead of using his anti-rail skepticism undermine the project that Californians have twice supported in statewide elections (Prop 1A in November 2008, and rejecting anti-HSR candidate Meg Whitman in November 2010).
Sheehan’s article makes some unfortunate errors regarding both the comparison of HSR to other transportation modes, and about the Berkeley ITS study itself:
Based on Cambridge’s model, overall Valley ridership between the Valley and California’s major metropolitan centers is expected to generate about 12.6 million trips a year — about 30% of the total ridership in 2035.
If that number comes to pass, it would dwarf the current levels of Valley train and airplane ridership to points in California.
In all of 2000 — the figures used for modeling in the Cambridge report — Amtrak’s conventional San Joaquin line from the Valley to the Bay Area had about 703,000 boardings. That same year, commercial passenger flights from Fresno Yosemite International Airport and Bakersfield to cities within California had a total of just over 31,000 boardings.
Comparing HSR to a conventional rail line that is not only MUCH slower than HSR, but doesn’t even connect to Los Angeles is just not credible. At all. It’s like pointing at a two-lane rural road and saying nobody would use a freeway there, while ignoring the proven effects of induced demand as well as development plans for that area that would provide the expected users. HSR provides a service that currently does not exist – at all. It cannot and should not be compared to existing travel modes, particularly without considering what might change in Fresno in 35 years’ time.
The 2035 numbers are totally credible for the following reasons:
1. HSR would serve Valley residents who will commute to jobs in SoCal or the Bay Area, whereas such commuting is now so costly or time-consuming that it rarely occurs.
2. Because such a commute becomes much easier, Fresno and other Valley cities will see a population boom because of HSR, of potentially significant scale. That in turn fuels more HSR trips on the system, brings more businesses to the cities, and turning the HSR boom into a sustainable new period of growth for the San Joaquin Valley. Hopefully, with better land-use planning and the attraction of a downtown station, that new population growth will come in the city centers.
3. It is not credible to assume that oil prices will remain at their present levels for much longer. As this blog has repeatedly explained, the arrival of peak oil means Californians will seek out alternatives to increasingly expensive oil-based transportation. By 2035 most Californians will not be able to afford frequent long-distance car trips, and HSR will make up the difference.
There is every reason to expect high HSR ridership. But that isn’t enough to base a ridership plan on. It needs to be backed by credible analysis, which Cambridge Systematics provided. Sheehan’s article repeats some of the Berkeley ITS criticisms of that study, but doesn’t accurately explain those criticisms:
UC Berkeley professor Samer Madanat and UC Irvine professor David Brownstone said Cambridge Systematics made incorrect assumptions and cooked the numbers to inflate ridership figures to meet preconceived expectations.
This is not true. The Berkeley ITS study did NOT claim they “cooked the numbers.” Madanat has previously disavowed that conclusion:
Madanat said, however, that the report’s conclusions and criticisms should not be seen as evidence Cambridge Systematics rigged its report to show higher ridership figures, as some high-speed rail opponents have suggested.
“This is the best firm in the business,” he said. “They have a reputation to protect. I would not say, and I would have a hard time believing, that they skewed the numbers. And there is no evidence of that.”
I will be writing the Fresno Bee to seek an immediate correction of that rather grievous error. Sheehan did allow space for Cambridge Systematics to defend themselves:
But the Cambridge researchers defended their projections, denying that they changed the data to conform to prior expectations and insisting to the Senate committee that any adjustments they made were appropriate.
“In every model development problem, we have to balance theory and academic rigor with practicality, budget constraints, data availability and schedule. That’s just the way it is in the application world,” said Lance Neumann, president of Cambridge Systematics. “It doesn’t mean you can take shortcuts, it doesn’t mean you can develop models that don’t give good, reliable results, but compromises have to be made. … Every model is some science and some art.”
Sheehan provided some other quotes from the Berkeley ITS study, which certainly did challenge some of the methodological assumptions used in the Cambridge Systematics report. But that’s all it did. That report did NOT prove that the ridership numbers were faulty, just that the numbers could be off, and could overstate – or understate – the actual ridership that will be achieved.
Of course, ridership projections are just that – projections. We assume that the world in 2035 will basically resemble the world of 2010, but with a few more people. We extrapolate present realities and assume that those will still hold true in 2035. Of course, they might not. An epidemic could wipe out half the state’s population. Global warming could start causing major weather dislocations in California and make Fresno uninhabitable. The price of oil could suddenly collapse, money might somehow magically be found to widen Highway 99, and robot-driven cars could become commonplace, making HSR less desirable than it now seems.
But when you look at the facts – including peak oil, global HSR success, and the ridership study itself – there is every reason to believe that California’s HSR system will generate a lot of riders and a lot of surpluses. Exactly how many riders is what the revenue projections need to foresee. The state legislature should support the Authority’s efforts to produce such a projection, instead of giving free rein to uninformed speculations.
Ultimately, it’s entirely reasonable to expect that Fresno can generate the number of trips claimed in 2035. In fact, I’ll place a bet right now with anyone who wants to take it that in 2035, there will indeed be 4,500 daily trips from the Fresno HSR station, and 12.6 million annual trips from Valley cities to other destinations in California. The only condition is that when I collect, it has to be in-person at the Fresno HSR station on November 21, 2035. You’ve got 25 years to set aside the money.

November 21, 2035?
*prepares his delorean*
Bret Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 2:44 pm
that’s right, we should all have flying cars by 2015 anyway; so much for traffic congestion.
I agree with Robert that you cannot use normal rail or flights in the Valley to draw a fair comparison. I can’t speak for Fresno, but it is almost ridiculous for anyone to consider flying out of Bakersfield to another California destination. The only two areas currently served by air are LAX and SFO. By the time you checked in, flew to one of these hubs, and then either changed flights, or rented a car and drove to the destination, its pointless, and just as quick to go by car. As for normal rail, with the number of stops made in the valley, normal rail takes as long, if not longer than vehicle travel from here (we’re approx. 4 hours from SF/SAC and SD), not to mention that the only service to LA is via Amtrak busses.
HSR will certainly attract many riders from the Valley who wish to cut their travel time north or south. Since the only current rail connection that is missing is the LA to Bakersfield route (on Amtrak), it makes most sense to build the Fresno – Bakersfield segment first, and get that next connection from Bakersfield – Palmdale where the MetroLine can be linked up, closing the circuit.
Peter Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Bakersfield-Palmdale is going to take so long to build that they can easily build both Merced-Fresno and Fresno-Bakersfield years before any trains run between Bakersfield and Palmdale.
Given the financial constraints, I find it unlikely that Bakersfield-Palmdale will be built before SJ-Merced, where the technical issues are much less daunting, not to mention the environmental review is much further along.
While the idea of San Joaquins running all the way to LAUS is tantalizing, I think it is too expensive and time-consuming to do that leg first. Instead, I think the Bakersfield-Paldale gap will be the last to be closed.
I assume all bets are off if for some reason the Fresno station hasn’t been built by 2035.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:21 am
Correct. Offer void where prohibited. And also void if the system isn’t built out as envisioned in the model that produced those ridership numbers. Don’t try to pull one over on me, even if I’m 56 years old in 2035.
BART to SFO demonstrated that ridership projections are not reliable.
But the real issue here is the certainty that operating subsidies will be required due to the CHSRA’s circuitous route and high labor costs under government operation.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 12:06 am
and the ridership projections for Midtown Direct and the River Line in New Jersey were wildly off too. Ridership exceeded all expectations in a very short time. What’s your point?
Victor Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 8:41 am
His point is He’s a TROLL, Who doesn’t know what He’s talking about.
Peter Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 8:49 am
And who makes things up as he goes alongto fit his conspiracy theory du jour, although he has some favorites that he repeats ad nauseum.
Paulus Magnus Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:36 am
BART predicted 17,800 daily riders by 2010 and reached 17,000 in 2008. In October of 2010, they had 11,482 daily weekday riders to/from SFO if I’m reading things right, which isn’t all that bad when you consider that air travel has been badly impacted by the depression and the SFO line is, of course, dependent upon air travel. Certainly not something that could have been reasonably predicted at the time of the ridership projections. The report does state a separate total for SFO extension as a line with 16,840 entries and 16,497 exits. Not sure what to make of that, not being from up north, but presumably if it is through running and one doesn’t need to get off at SFO but can transit through, that’d be the appropriate number then.
http://www.bart.gov/about/reports/ridership.aspx
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:48 am
No, no, no: BART and MTC predicted 70,000 daily riders by 2010 on the BART-SFO extension, which shows how deeply wrong the ridership estimates were. Look at the EIR.
Millbrae was supposed to be the station with the highest ridership numbers, not the airport station, and Millbrae has experienced the sharped shortfalls from the rigged expectatons. The cooked ridership numbers were disputed at the time the projections were made by MTC, but since it’s now 2010, the proof is now in the pudding. Is anyone going to be held accountable?
Paulus Magnus Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 10:51 am
Was it actually built as outlined in the EIR, since there are station names that appear on the EIR but not on the ridership report?
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:35 am
It was actually built as outlined in the Final EIR which projected 70,000 daily riders for the four new stations, although the EIR went through several iterations. Earlier EIRs didn’t even include BART actually crossing 101 into the airport or the Millbrae station, which was actually added as a additional station for more construction pork (yum!). The extension from Daly City to Colma was actually part of even earlier EIRs and construction projects: the Daly City Turnback Project which built ‘tailtracks’ to Colma, and the Colma Extension which built the Colma station on top of these Daly City ‘tailtracks’ with further tailtracks of its own headed to South San Francisco. ‘Tailtracks’ are BART’s way of starting to lay ‘facts-on-the-ground’ for extensions. Note the Millbrae tailtracks. Colma was not part of the four-station BART-SFO project, although BART is playing a shell game by including the Colma ridership numbers as part of “five-station” BART-SFO Extension. Either way, the actual 2010 ridership numbers are far short of the 2010 ridership predictions.
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/news/transactions/ta06-03/facts.htm
Take close notice that the BART-SFO was supposed to turn an operating profit based on these rosy ridership numbers — a common claim that is rarely ever met — and the project was sold to Samtrans as a way of generating operating revenue in return for substantial capital investment from San Mateo County. Samtrans foolishly took the bait and became responsible for the operating finances on the line. Samtrans stupidly assumed a profit on dreams of 70,000 riders a day but instead took a heavy bath of steep operating losses. Samtrans had to buy itself out at heavy cost from its very bad contract with BART.
Even as late as 2008, when it’s clear that the BART-SFO project is an absolute disaster, BART’s professional spinner Linton Johnson still has the nerve to claim that, “The naysayers out there who said this extension wouldn’t be successful are now eating their words.” The Earth is flat! Peak oil!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/38937
The naysayers were absolutely correct, but the damage is done, fait accompli. See, they are relying on you not to notice all their failed predictions and the trail of financial ruin (as a taxpayer, you get their bill).
Decisions based on cooked ridership numbers have real consequences, and they are not good.
Derek Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 12:52 pm
What hurt the BART SFO extension is also, ironically, what will help HSR: 9/11.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Ummitigated horseshit.
BART SFOX was and remains and always will be an outright piece of fraud perpetuated by PBQD and allied consultants.
The “dot com bubble bust” wasn’t responsible for the ridership and revenue shortfalls. (This one is the officla line of the limitlessly corrupt MTC staff, despite the fact that PB’s ridership “predictions” were made before the dot com bubble inflated.)
“9/11″ wasn’t responsible for the ridership and revenue shortfalls. (Good God Can’t you read a calendar?)
Systematic, deliberate, knowing, egregious fraud by the promoters of the project — fraudulence accurately called at at the time by the many of the same people that we see questioning PB’s outright HSR ridership and revenue and cost fraudulence — is the only thing that explains the irreconcilable and massive disparities between reality and “projection”.
PS http://groups.google.com/group/ba.transportation/msg/21785dc03495eb42
Jeff Carter Reply:
November 24th, 2010 at 10:46 am
These comments are quite accurate, as are the comments by Peninsula Rail 2010; everything about BART/SFO is a lie. No matter how many times at countless meetings with BART, MTC, Samtrans, etc. during the early 1990’s (when dot-com was just a small blip on the radar screen), critics questioned BART’s ridership projections. The response was always that BART to Millbrae is going to carry 70,000 riders (They just can’t wait to jump on to the new BART extension.), and it will turn a profit for Samtrans. Colma ridership will be 20,000 and will not loose any riders when the SFO/Millbrae extension opens. So if you include Colma; now we are up to 90,000 on new BART in San Mateo County. Those of us criticizing the BART ridership projections were told we are wrong and we don’t know what we are talking about. Well the proof in the pudding and now we see who was 100% correct and who was lying (BART/MTC). Once it was clear the BART to SFO/Millbrae was going to be a disaster, BART and its minions conveniently and deceitfully changed the playing field:
They “revised” the ridership projections significantly downward.
They conveniently added Colma station, (which was opened several years prior to SFO) into the mix to artificially inflate the BART/SFO ridership numbers.
They conveniently blamed 9/11 and the dot-com bubble burst for lower ridership.
They also blamed Caltrain Baby Bullet service for low ridership.
The sad fact is that these very same tactics are being used to ram BART to San Jose down our throats and no one is listening or shows the slightest bit of concern regarding the failure of BART to Millbrae.
An interesting but little known fact regarding the BART extension south of Daly City relates to the so-called high (fraudulent) revenue generated by the extension. All fare revenue for trips that begin or end at any of the five stations is credited as revenue on the San Mateo County extension. However the expense/operating cost is only for the miles of BART south of Daly City, so this produces a deceptively higher revenue to cost ratio, creating the impression that the BART/Millbrae extension is “doing well.” So if you pay $7.05 to go from Millbrae to Pittsburg, the entire $7.05 goes into the BART/Millbrae slush fund, while the BART /Millbrae slush fund is only charged the operating cost for Millbrae to Colma part of the trip, the rest of BART pays or subsidizes the Daly City to Pittsburg part of the trip.
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:10 am
Interestingly, the airport station itself is doing OK in terms of ridership numbers, even though the airport station could have been built much more cheaply, efficiently, and with better intermodal capability with a joint Caltrain-BART-Airtrain airport station just west of 101. The other three stations are the ones that are vastly underperforming: South San Francisco, San Bruno, and especially Millbrae with its mega-parking-lot.
The air passengers are actually the bright spot for ridership on the BART-SFO extension, even with the more recent steep surcharge. This is because BART is basically the only decent transit option from SFO to San Francisco. Samtrans has sharply cut back it express bus service, and its express buses aren’t allowed to carry passengers with luggage.
BART and MTC blame 9-11 and the dot-com bust for their deeply wrong ridership predictions, but this is another lie. The ridership predictions were made before the dot-com boom even started and before the dramatic increase of air travel in the late 1990s. They take you for fools.
Peter Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:17 am
Knock down the retarded parking garage at Millbrae and put in some TOD.
We’re stuck with the stupid BART configuration. We could improve the service between Millbrae and BART by turning the link into a shuttle run only. Strip down four cars to mainly standing room only with room for luggage. Maybe even fully automate the link.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 24th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Hey Peter,
Your excellent buddy Quentin Kopp was front and centre for the scam which resulted in knocking down an entire residential neighbourhood in order to put in this parking lot edifice with a station appendage added as an artifact. PBQD designed the extension and the Millbrae edifice down the the last detail, and PBQD was responsible for the ridership projections that justified 3000 parking spaces displacing people’s homes.
The willful ignorance displayed here of the long and proven and incontrovertible records of fraud of the principals involved in the CHSRA (contractors, politicals, agency staffers) is incredible.
Peter Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:19 am
Oh, and turn SFO into a terminal station only for the yellow line.
synonymouse Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:56 am
“They take you for fools” Extrapolate to the Prop 1A campaign. Bait and switch. Bait the hook, set the hook, reel them on in.
Missiondweller Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:29 pm
It certainly didn’t help when they added a $4 surcharge to get to SFO, raising the price of the ticket to around $9 from SF. Most people throw in a few more dollars for Super Shuttle since they give you door-to-door service.
Apparently nobody on the BART board has ever taken an economics class.
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:13 am
Again, the air passengers are just about the only ones riding the BART-SFO extension, and it’s because they aren’t any other decent transit options to San Francisco. The air passengers still pay the steep surcharge, since it is still cheaper than a taxi or shared shuttle. The airport workers who relied on affordable transit to get to their job at the airport are screwed.
J. Wong Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 11:46 am
Wasn’t there a proposal to subsidize (or discount) BART for airport workers?
The CHSRA’s meandering route into the hinterlands and lavish compensation packages demanded by militant public employee unions will produce operating losses which will have to be made up with taxpayer subsidies.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 7:02 am
…hinterland…. what cities along I-5, your preferred route, in the Central Valley, are as big as Bakersfield or Fresno?
Eric Fredericks Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:50 am
I-5 will not work for high-speed rail. Also, CHSRA has to be one of the smallest state agencies in all of CA, if not the smallest.
Peter Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:57 am
Don’t even try logic. He’ll play whack-a-mole with you – you respond to his one argument, and he pops up with something completely unrelated. He’s a classic internet troll armed with pseudo-science and a penchant for cherry-picking, not the modern ones who have no ideas and just plaster crap on message boards.
Palmdale’s not a hinterland.
synonymouse Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:11 am
Palmdale belongs on the LA regional mass transit grid. It is not on the most direct hsr alignment.
Please advise as to where you intend to secure the operating subsidies needed for the CHSRA.
As a tutorial exercise perhaps you should first figure out where Jerry Brown is going to find the $20 billion to keep the California welfare state careening on for the next 12 months.
Peter Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:21 am
You still haven’t shown that operating subsidies will be needed. You just claim they’ll be needed, the same way Reason and Kato, and other such ilk just make unsubstantiated claims.
Everything I have seen states that CAHSR will be entirely self-sufficient and profitable.
Plugging CA’s gaping budget holes is irrelevant to this discussion. Note my above whack-a-mole comment.
J. Wong Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:24 am
So your argument, without cites, I might add, is that no way is HSR not going to require operating subsidies? I think you’re wrong. HSR will be competitive with the airlines and will operate at a profit.
Peter Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:31 am
He has no argument. Just conjecture, conspiracy theories, and Tolmachian propaganda.
synonymouse Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 2:03 pm
It can’t be competitive with the Tehachapi detour.
I wonder if the reason why Branson is not apparently interested in the CHSRA, apart from lip service, is the obvious mediocrity, the vomitous lack of nerve and vision, the ghetto politics that make Bell look like Disneyland, the pathological UP envy of PB-Palmdale.
Peter Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 2:06 pm
As I said just above.
Anyone else tired of the ridership discussion? Regardless of the number, there will always be a naysayer. However, the line will be built anyone – it would be to dum to do otherwise In light of peak oil, limited space for highways, etc etc.
Victor Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:20 am
I know I am, The subject at this point is rather pointless.
political_incorrectness Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:38 am
Agreed, the Fresno Bee is just picking up some old mud to sling. Obviously, the opposition has run out of bad stuff and can only reemphasize what has not been fully resolved.
Victor Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Ah yes, I believe they were called: Reruns :D
Jerry Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 10:49 pm
I just get confused by all the numbers referencing train riders and/or boardings. Omar Almad, member of Caltrain Board of Directors, said at the San Bruno Grade Separation Project groundbreaking on Nov. 18, 2010 that Caltrain from Gilroy/San Jose to San Francisco has a total annual ridership of 12 million people. He added that it was the same number as the annual 12 million people who use the entire Amtrak North East corridor from Boston to Wash. D.C.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Same number of people who ride Amtrak trains on the Northeast Corridor. The majority of the riders on the line aren’t on Amtrak trains, they are on state run commuter trains.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:16 am
Math class is tough!
I love shopping!
Will we ever have enough clothes?
Wanna have a pizza party?
Facts are stupid things.
Re: “I will be writing the Fresno Bee to seek an immediate correction of that rather grievous error. Sheehan did allow space for Cambridge Systematics to defend themselves”
Just curious Robert – when you write reubuttal arguments to articles in these various newspapers, do you send the author an email and point them to your rebuttal? Do you ever get a response or do they plug their ears? It seems like the same people at the same papers keep on writing the same erroneous statements over and over again…
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:23 am
I did email Tim Sheehan; haven’t heard a response yet.
Robert,
There’s a new (massively ignorant) opinion piece on The Atlantic you might want to have a go at:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/11/why-the-us-will-not-get-chinas-high-speed-rail/66863/
YesonHSR Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:10 am
silly poor opinion piece…then I looked at the bottom…brought to you by ExxonMobile, she knows how her daddy is !!!
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:23 am
Yeah, I saw that yesterday. It’ll be the subject of today’s blog post.
Not entirely off-topic, nevertheless an interesting read, if you’ve never come across this before (courtesy of the University of Barcelona):
http://www.ub.edu/irea/working_papers/2010/201003.pdf
Check out this article claiming GOP wants to take back the $2 billion from our state for HSR. What a load of horse shit!! How about we tell them we will take back all the money our state puts into the federal general fund that is above and beyond all other states!! Time to make California our own country. Bye Bye deficit.
Eric M Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 5:49 pm
I sure hope China gives us a blank check to finish the whole project so we can give everyone the middle finger. Let the chinese take all the risks and then the profits it will bring in. They can laugh all the way to the bank (not like they are already doing that), but al least we will still get the benifit of all the jobs it will create in the state. Our governtment is getting more and more pathetic.
YESONHSR Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 5:59 pm
pure games..It would be not make it out of the Senate nor Obama’s desk..
YESONHSR Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 6:18 pm
“it would not make it”!!! sorry no edit function!! Anyway its as bad as the 3 Wis. clowns trying to introduce a bill to make the ARRA money retuned go for deficit reduction, another sideshow game that they are trying to pass off as “caring” about the taxpayer
morris brown Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 6:22 pm
The chances of rescinding these funds would appear to be small. On the other hand, chances of any further fed funding is at least as small.
So, they might well start construction of a segment in the valley, useless by itself for HSR. Any further funding is years away.
MGimbel Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Would anyone happen to know how much exactly California sends into the federal general fund?
Victor Reply:
November 22nd, 2010 at 9:36 pm
That will never happen, The Democratic Party controls the Senate and the White House, So the Repugnicans can do their worst and It will amount to all of nothing, As they can’t get past a Veto, Nor do they have enough votes for an override of said Veto, So the threat to HSR in California is rather pointless and empty. But then It’s not surprising that an Empty Headed Troglodyte Neanderthal would propose this either.
Somewhat OT, but I heard on NPR today that LAX just opened up a new state of the art fire station. It cost $13M in mostly federal stimulus dollars. While the need for this is obvious, why is nobody challenging the spending of public funds that support the airline industry?
It is ridiculous how it is acceptable to bash the HSR stimulus funds, but these these expenses are just ignored. Why don’t the airlines pool their funds together and raise fees to pay for this stuff? This is just one of probably thousands of examples like these that fall through the cracks unnoticed. Meanwhile, the GOP keeps on talking about how HSR has to have an operational profit.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/11/22/new-fire-station-opens-lax/
For those who think the ridership stuff is old news, I’d just like to point out that the Senate just had a hearing covering ridership on Nov. 4th. Since it was the day of the Board meeting and the day of the CV announcement – many are just realizing what actually happened at the Senate hearing.
For those interested – you can watch it here: https://www.calchannel.com/channel/viewVideo/1891
The rough agenda was first a 6 month report from State Auditor on progress made thus far (Authority gets reviewed at 60 days – 6 months and 1 yr mark for those interested – so this is not “old news” but updates) and then ridership stuff…
Elizabeth Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 6:50 am
CARRD was there and made comments, in reaction to Cambridge’s proposal that they get $5 million to fix the mistakes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3RCe0ytjPE
observer Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:28 pm
The new news in that article was Barkers blatant admissions about the invalidity of the ridership projections for revenue projections, that they were overblown on purpose (for ‘environemental’ impact – meaning making the traffic/plane/freeway reduction impacts look as good as possible), and that the authority was basically forced to ‘prematurely’ begin to speak to these ridership projection in terms of using them to defend revenues. In essence – the first CHSRA spokesman admission that the CHSRA hasn’t yet produced a viable business plan – that their ridership projections were never intended for this purpose at all!
Can we factor in the TSA’s full body scans and invasive pat-downs in order to board an airplane into the HSR ridership projections? If airport security keeps coming up with new ways to make air travel miserable, people will be running to the nearest HSR station the moment that first train arrives.
J. Wong Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Yes. Train travel over the distances within California will be much more pleasant than flying. I’m sticking my neck out here, but I believe it will even draw those who currently drive; the cost for a family of 4 (I’m assuming 2 children), will be cheaper than air travel enough to convince some to take the train.
Clem Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Janet Napolitano holds forth on TSA full body scanners:
“I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime. So, what do we need to be doing to strengthen our protections there?”
This is likely why PB is planning for massive airport-like stations with full security theater. They state as much in their recent operations peer review memo. Nobody can resist this design approach–”but the children!”
How long before some dimwit in a cave figures out that the biggest vulnerability is actually the crowded line that snakes back and forth in front of the scanner?
Peter Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Now THIS would be funny.
Peter Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Long distance trains are never going to be ANYTHING close to as vulnerable as airlines or subways. Ask Carlos the Jackal.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Fucking hell. I was worried the DHS would be thinking in these terms. The security-industrial complex has backscatter machines to sell, after all.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
November 23rd, 2010 at 6:14 pm
They quietly tried things out in Penn Station in New York. Then quietly removed them.
And it’s not like terrorism on trains is something new. Ask the people in Madrid or London.
…. Or the people on Long Island. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson_%28convict%29
…. Or maybe they can ask Rep. McCarthy what she thinks about security on trains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_McCarthy