Japan Offers Loan to Build CA HSR Project
Arnold Schwarzenegger’s trip to Asia is already making significant high speed rail news, as Japan’s Transport Minister, Seiji Maehara, announces his country is willing to help fund the project’s construction:
Japan said it’s ready to lend California money to help pay for a planned high-speed railroad as trainmakers from Asia to Europe compete for work on a project that will cost at least $40 billion.
The state-owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation is prepared to lend funds, Japan’s Transport Minister Seiji Maehara told reporters late yesterday in Tokyo after meeting with California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. He declined to comment on the amount of the possible loan.
The size of the loan is a rather important matter, obviously. But Japan is surely not thinking small here. Their plan is to help finance the project’s construction so as to entice the CHSRA to choose Japanese trainsets for the system and select a Japanese HSR operator to run our system here in California.
It’s a smart move for Japan, one that would ensure their companies would get a significant amount of money. And Japan knows they’re not the only ones thinking along these lines. China has already suggested it too might help fund California high speed rail and even floated the idea of repurposing the NUMMI plant in Fremont to build the trainsets.
During this trip, as the Bloomberg article linked above explains, China has deepened its relationship with HSR backers from California:
China’s Ministry of Rail yesterday signed a memorandum of understanding with the Bay Area Council, an advocacy group for businesses in the San Francisco bay area, to help it find partners in a California for a bid on high-speed rail work, John Grubb, council vice president, external affairs, said in an e-mail today. The agreement is not exclusive, while China is the only country and potential bidder that has asked, Grubb said.
Japan’s HSR industry isn’t taking China’s efforts lightly. Earlier this year JR Central slammed the Chinese HSR industry:
The chairman of Central Japan Railway, operator of Japan’s oldest and busiest bullet train link, has denounced China’s growing high-speed rail industry for “stealing” foreign technology and compromising safety….
Many trains on Chinese routes travel at up to 350kph, 25 per cent faster than Shinkansen trains in Japan, and have had no big accidents. But Mr Kasai said they are much closer to maximum safe speeds: “I don’t think they are paying the same attention to safety that we are. Pushing it that close to the limit is something we would absolutely never do.”
It might seem flattering to be the subject of all this attention. And if China or Japan are willing to help provide the “private” funding needed to finish the construction cost for the SF to Anaheim system, I’m not going to argue.
At the same time, it’s ridiculous that California has to look to Japan and China to fund this HSR project. California voters already put up $10 billion to get HSR under way. But it’s hard to get a majority of Congress to follow suit – even to charter a National Infrastructure Bank, which is similar to the method by which Japan proposes to loan us the money to build HSR. And the long-term HSR funding that we’ll need is tied up in the Transportation Bill, which was to have been reauthorized last year, and may not get reauthorized until 2013.
So because Congress is under the thumb of politicians who refuse to spend public money to create jobs, California HSR loans could be repaid to a bank in Japan or China instead of back into the US Treasury. If that’s what it takes to secure California’s future prosperity and get HSR built, I’ll support it. But it’s an absurd situation that shows the lost opportunities that result from our nation’s lack of an industrial or an infrastructure policy, and our preference to let Wall Street act as pirates, treating our economy as the Spanish Main.
In the 20th century, the state and federal governments paid for the entire cost of building the world’s most extensive superhighway network, the Interstates. Here in the 21st century, when the US is even richer than we were in 1956 when the Interstate Highway Act was passed, it’s just not credible to believe those who say we cannot afford to fund and build a high speed rail system ourselves.
(Note: I am aware that the photo is of Arnold Schwarzenegger in Shanghai, and not in Japan.)
It is a terrible and unfortunate situation of mismatch.
Japanese and Chinese who can make multi-billion dollar construction loans cannot offer a train model that could meet FRA crashworthiness requirement or run on conventional tracks. Chinese CRH380A is immediately ruled out while Kawasaki’s efSET hasn’t even entered a full-development phase yet.
Those bidders who can meet FRA crashworthiness requirement compliant models cannot make multi-billion dollar construction loan offers.
I suspect it will eventually come down to French vs Korean. Both offer models that are locomotive pulled and are best positioned to meet FRA crashworthiness requirement and mixed traffic conditions, and both governments have a history of state-backed financing for something grand scale projects like this, although the scale of financing would not be as impressive as Chinese and Japanese offers. If that is SNCF is allowed to bid after the Holocaust hysteria.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 9:42 am
But there is no need to meet FRA crashworthiness requirements. Caltrain has already received a waiver on the most draconian of the FRA requirements, and it appears that the FRA is already reconsidering its crashworthiness rules, especially as PTC comes online nationwide.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Caltrain waiver allows introduction of UIC crash compliant train models on Caltrain corridor, like TGV, Velaro, KTX-II, etc. Of three, KTX-II offers the highest crashworthiness performance, followed by TGV and then Velaro.
Shinkansen E6 and China’s Shinkansen E2 derivative(if they can actually beat Kawasaki’s legal challenges) CRH380A do not meet UIC crashworthiness standard at all and would require a separate waiver from FRA, which is hard to be granted because of the mixed traffic status of CHSR corridor with Caltrain and Metrolink.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:49 am
But while there is no indication that the CRH380A and Shinkansen are planning on meeting the required crashworthiness performance, there is no indication to the contrary, either.
Therefore, at this point, this is baseless speculation.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:59 am
@ Peter
The very fact that Kawasaki is busy developing efSET as Japan’s UIC-compliant export only model confirms that Shinkansen models cannot be made to be UIC-compliant.
Or else Kawasaki would have tried to modify its Shinkansen models it such option was possible.
As for Chinese train models, we all know CRH380A is an unauthorized modification of Shinkansen E2(Which isn’t UIC-compliant) and we know how Chinese stuff do in crash test of any sort.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:32 am
“we know how Chinese stuff do in crash test of any sort.”
Objection, relevance? The FRA would not allow ANY non-compliant trains to run in mixed traffic without passing crash tests.
“we all know CRH380A is an unauthorized modification of Shinkansen E2″
Objection, facts not in evidence, and speculation. Why don’t we wait for the legal issues to be sorted out by the proper authorities prior to making those types of allegations.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Or, it could be that the Shinkansen designs are owned by the JR companies, and only licensed to the rolling stock vendors as needed. The efSET is a way for Kawasaki to be able to sell trains without paying royalties.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
@ Alon Levy
> The efSET is a way for Kawasaki to be able to sell trains without paying royalties.
And Kawasaki doesn’t even have a place in Japan to test efSET, since it’s too heavy to run on Shinkansen track. Weight increase and performance decrease is the price Kawasaki must pay to make an exportable train model.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:41 pm
Exportable to Europe, and to places that listen to European protectionist lobbyists. The US may well not have that; it listens to American protectionist lobbyists instead.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:06 am
BTW, the reason Rotem makes the sturdiest bullet train is because it is also the main battle tank manufacturer. So Rotem’s trains are built like a tank, literally.
nobody important Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
That’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. So apparently Siemens’ trains are built like windmills?
BMF From San Diego Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
And if the peninsula NIMBYs made trains, they’d be tigers… as in paper tigers. And if San Jose did, they’d be made from silicone. And if Mexico made them, they’d smell like tortillas and burritos!
All in fun.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Caltrain only asked for UIC. From the FRA’s perspective, 100 tons and 200 tons are equally incompatible with its way of doing things, and would require absolute time separation coming from proven positive train control. Granted, it’s possible that some useless lobbyist could convince the FRA that anything less than 200 is unsafe, but given the FRA’s past behavior, it doesn’t seem to make a distinction.
Useless Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 7:47 am
@ Alon Levy
> some useless lobbyist could convince the FRA that anything less than 200 is unsafe
You bet UIC-compliant train model vendors will make that lobby in order to exclude Japanese and Chinese bids.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:03 pm
You can also bet that Japanese vendors will lobby in the opposite direction. Here’s a hint: JITI is running conferences trumpeting the Shinkansen’s superior performance, and saying that the 200-ton rule doesn’t make trains safer. It’s not saying that the Shinkansen can be adapted to Euro-regulations.
Useless Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
@ Alon Levy
> You can also bet that Japanese vendors will lobby in the opposite direction.
Well, all the other guys are happy with UIC-standard, so it doesn’t work.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
You seem to be awfully sure that the FRA has a mentality of “We don’t know anything, so let’s count lobbyists.” Do you know something we don’t?
Andre Peretti Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:09 am
The UIC’s compression-without-deformation specifications take into account the fact that European high-speed trains also run on legacy lines where encounters with other vehicles are possible. They don’t target train/train collisions as FRA rules seem to. These are supposed not to happen in Europe.
Until all level crossings are phased out the UIC is not likely to change its rules. The TGV has had a number of collisions with heavy vehicles, including a 100-tonnes+ truck with very limited damage to the train.
If you think California’s high-speed trains will never collide with any heavy foreign object, then lightweight Shinkansen is a good choice.
political_incorrectness Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 9:43 am
Did you forget about Caltrain’s FRA wavier? Now Metrolink needs to get its act together and do the same.
ks Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
“I suspect it will eventually come down to French vs Korean.”
Isn’t French railway’s role in Holocaust affecting its bid?
Andre Peretti Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 9:32 am
French companies seem to have managed to have the worst of both worlds. A Jewish boycott campaign for collaborating with the Nazis in the 1940s and a Palestinian one for collaborating with Israel now.
Peter Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 9:38 am
The SNCF will simply make the same statement they have in the past: They were taken over by the Nazis, and were forced to follow their orders, and that many SNCF employees died trying to sabotage Nazi plans.
Sure the size of a Japanese loan is important, but not nearly as important as the terms, which are critical. Hell, _I’ll_ offer the Authority a $20 billion loan … is that good news? No, because the terms will suck like nothing you’ve ever seen. Presumably a Japanese loan is a bit of a loss-leader that comes along with selection of Japanese technology, so they should be prepared to offer better terms than you’d get from one of the global infrastructure investment groups (e.g., Macquarrie) or from bond markets … maybe they (or the chinese, koreans, french, etc.) will offer fabulous terms on the assumption that having secured California HSR that they’ll become the defacto US standard. But this is all conjecture at this point, and until CHSRA gets down to actual negotiation with private lenders/investors none of us can accurately predict the outcome.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:56 am
@ Mikeorama
Looking at Japan and China’s prior HSR construction loan offers to Vietnam, they should be pretty good. The only problem is that neither could actually offer models that could meet FRA approval and could share traffic with other trains on conventional rail.
China has not even proven that it could even design a high speed train by itself, so they are pretty out. Japan can obviously design a UIC-compliant EMU model if given time, but California would be the first user of Japan’s first UIC-compliant high speed train model(Japan will not use one itself) and with all the technical risks associated with being the first user. As Javelin wobbling fiasco in UK has shown, Japanese trains aren’t glitch free either.
So the best bet for California is to select a model that is already proven in its home country and other markets, such as TGV, Velaro, and KTX-II, but these bids do not come with fat loan offers like Chinese and Japanese bids.
lyqwyd Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
why do you keep spouting this FRA stuff, it’s irrelevant. A waiver will be granted for whatever trainset is chosen.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
They’ll have an agreement with the FRA that as long as the Authority makes sure the trainset meets whatever FRA standards applicable, the FRA will grant whatever waiver is required.
Useless Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 7:44 am
@ Peter
> as long as the Authority makes sure the trainset meets whatever FRA standards applicable
Technically, none of HSR train models other than Acela can meet the FRA compression standard of 360 tons. The closest is KTX-II, whose locomotive can withstand a 500 ton compression load and the coaches 200+ ton compression load, but this is still not going to meet the FRA’s standard.
FRA’s 200 ton UIC standard waiver came with a whole bunch of strings attached, so I can’t imagine Shinkansen’s 100 ton standard or China’s 0 ton standard getting any FRA approval.
Peter Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 9:36 am
You’re still missing my point, but I don’t think you’re interested in understanding it.
Joey Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
The FRA will generally allow you to run whatever you want when you are not running compliant and non-compliant trains at the same time. There are plenty of examples of non-complaint operations in the US, though none high-speed, for obvious reasons. There could be conflicts on the CalTrain line (though I would hope that CalTrain will be able to replace its fleet before HSR begins operating) or in the LA-Anaheims section, if track sharing is selected, but I’m still hesitant to say that this is going to be an major obstacle.
Peter Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
HSR will likely be completely separated from freight in San Jose. It will be on the tall aerial from Diridon past Santa Clara, where the freight would turn onto the line going to the salt flats (forget the name of the line). Freight will likely only travel up the Peninsula at night while the HSR trains are sleeping.
I’m not sure what the situation will be down south.
Joey Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Freight trains aren’t the issue. The issue is the transition period in which CalTrain may be running both lightweight EMUs and its old heavy diesel units.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
@ lyqwyd
> A waiver will be granted for whatever trainset is chosen.
Alstom wishes FRA was that flexible when they were doing Acela.
FRA demonstrated that they were willing to go down to UIC level, but they surely aren’t willing to go down to Shinkansen level(100 ton), or Chinese level(0 ton).
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
There was no PTC on the Northeast Corridor back when the Acela was in design. The PTC implementation, ACSES, only came online after service was supposed to start. And I don’t think Alstom cares too much about how flexible the FRA is – it’s the riders who suffer.
So far, you’re only offering innuendo and rumor about what the FRA will and won’t do. Where’s the beef? Where are the statements from the FRA
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
There’s supposed to be a question mark at the end of the above comment.
Alex2000 Reply:
September 16th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
BTW Acela is mostly Bombardier (%75) not Alstrom.
Off topic, but in the line of potential connecting services–a gee-whiz commentary about a “mini-monorail” from the Monorail Society, with a YouTube clip:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/News.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ClDVtLmcYE&translated=1
I’m not going to say monorails are necessarily a bad idea (Seattle’s has been running forever, and the slightly older Disney line was really intended as a reduced scale demonstrator for Alweg), but I am afraid I’m not terribly impressed by this effort, which looks cramped and seems to be noisy to boot–hardly the grand improvement we are supposed to need for a transit system.
A touch of nostalgia: the opening of the Disneyland monorail in 1958 or so. Best part is the opening commentary on auto traffic (first minute or so). If only the politicians hadn’t listened to (or been bought off by) those oil and car company men back then!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5e129tiEcM
The real question here is: who would be on the hook for repaying the loan? If it’s the California state taxpayer, then how is that different from regular bond sales?
If, on the other hand, the loan were extended to an investment vehicle that would own and operate the system but have to service these loans out of operating profits with no public guarantees, then the lender would assume a slice of the ridership risk. How significant? That depends in part on how senior the debt would be.
Either way, the loan could be extended in kind rather than cash, i.e. it could consist of a mix of products and specialized labor that would not need to be paid for up front. Such deals are more complex to structure, last not least because of protectionist “buy American” clauses attached to state and/or federal grants plus visa constraints.
Some interesting observation.
Arnold Schwarzenegger stayed in China for 3 days, in Korea for 2 days, but in Japan for 1 day.
What’s even more important, it can be confirmed that CHSRA chairman Roelof van Ark had a technical meeting with Chinese bidders and will have a similar meeting with Korean bidders tomorrow while Arnie goes off in KTX-II ride. It is not known if van Ark had a similar meeting with Japanese bidders.
Based on trails of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Roelof van Ark, it seems that Chinese and Koreans are top two candidates, Chinese for financing muscles and Koreans for being the closest match to California’s HSR conditions.
nobody important Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
More speculation…
Risenmessiah Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Although Schwarzenegger is allegedly, supposedly, going on this trade mission as part of high speed rail, it’s really a carrot to get the Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese to buy more exports from us. For example, if Schwarzengger tries to sell nuts to Asia (don’t laugh) a big beneficiary are the farms that get very cheap water in dry areas of the state to grow said nuts. Foreign demand would naturally drive up the price of water and force us to build the peripheral canal….
But it’s other issues as well: China is inuandating farmland to build dams for energy production and that will require food imports. With Australia suffering from huge drought, California is a whole lot closer than Argentina to supply beef.
The Koreans and Japanese have more specific (read: balanced) trade proposals, and no matter what they offer for HSR it’s hard to imagine Schwarzengger accepting anything than a grand conclusion to his legacy.
Just an FYI, but Tesla has already made a deal to use the NUMMI plant to build it’s cars. I don’t think they’d be able to build trainsets there anymore.
Seth Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Tesla is using a very small portion of NUMMI for it’s operations.
It seems Londoners are very disappointed with Hitachi “bullet trains” imported from Japan.
London Insider article
Are Japanese trains incompatible with European tracks? Eurostars use the same track at even greater speeds and their ride is absolutely smooth.
I’m no engineer, but the solution proposed by the company (Southern Railways) to “add dampers and weigh down the cars to limit sideways movements” looks low-tech.
Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens (who lost the bid) must be having a big laugh.
This is what happens when, as often in England, bean counters have precedence over engineers. Cheap ends up being costly.
nobody important Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
“It seems Londoners are very disappointed with Hitachi “bullet trains” imported from Japan.”
The model Hitachi built for England is not an actual Shinkansen model. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_Series.
“Are Japanese trains incompatible with European tracks?”
Yes, but the Shinkansen trains are since they use standard gauge.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
@ nobody important
> Yes, but the Shinkansen trains are since they use standard gauge.
Shinkansen models are too big to run on European and US tracks. Not enough clearance.
There are just too many issues with adapting Shinkansen for US use, when CA could just select one of UIC-standard train models that are already cleared to run on Caltrain corridor by FRA.
nobody important Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
So you’re saying we can’t use Shinkansen models because they won’t fit on tracks that don’t exist yet?
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Shinkansen models are still in the running given that they’ve been working to ensure that Shinkansen trains can actually enter the TBT.
Andre Peretti Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Trains can be built to fit the buyer’s loading gauge. The Velaro exists in 2 widths, the Pendolino in 3: UK, UIC and Russian.
thatbruce Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Shinkansen models are too big to run on European and US tracks. Not enough clearance.
Asking Wikipedia suggests the following maximum widths/heights for rail vehicles:
JR Narrow (also Mini-Shinkansen): 3000mm/4100mm
Shinkansen: 3400mm/4500mm
UIC (C): 3150mm/4650mm
UIC (ERA): 3290mm/4700mm
US (plate B): 3250mm/4600mm
US (plate K): 3250mm/6150mm
Note that the maximum width used for the Mini-Shinkansen models (2947mm is the cited width for the 400 series) is less than UIC or US. Ergo (ignoring appropriate certification), certain existing Shinkansen models can be used within the existing UIC and US loading gauges.
When you come down to it, trains are built to order. The customer specifies the desired loading gauge (ie, width/height), platform height, and the manufacturer modifies one of its existing designs accordingly. There is nothing special about a given Shinkansen model that restricts the design from being slimmed down for the US or UIC loading gauges; the Mini-Shinkansen are an example of this process.
Clem Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
one of UIC-standard train models that are already cleared to run on Caltrain corridor by FRA.
It would help if you actually familiarized yourself with the contents of the FRA waiver, and exactly what the FRA has “cleared”.
The notion that Caltrain or anyone else could simply go shopping for a UIC-standard off-the-shelf train is false. There is an extremely long list of 49 CFR 238 safety standards that must still be complied with. There will be a long and convoluted specification written by consultants, for the most part regurgitating requirements from various places. Then there will be a long drawn-out RFP that will result in high bids because of all the customization for Caltrain’s globally unique needs. Then there will be a long period of commissioning. Then there will be a multi-year wait as we all wait for CBOSS to become somewhat operational.
But hey, why worry, it’s already cleared!
Victor Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
81mph max? No thanks, That’s way too slow and It’s a Narrow Gauge Trainset, This trainset is what the Governator rode in Japan, It does 199mph max, With some work maybe We could have something like this(below) and It’s Standard Gauge too, And since no track has been laid, The CHSRA could conceivably design the stations and rails to be compatible and do some upgrades on Track shared with Caltrain, Metrolink and others if needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E5_Series_Shinkansen
Victor Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Of course If You want the leading Edge, It’s the E6 which isn’t really any faster, Yet, As It max was raised from 300Kph to 320Kph, 220Mph would be about 355Kph of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E6_Series_Shinkansen
nobody important Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
And then there’s the E6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E6_Series_Shinkansen
jimsf Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
its so ugly.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Hi, Jim,
As you know, at the high speeds we are looking at, aerodynamics are extremely important, and so you have a functional shape based on air flow. Having said that, I don’t think we’ve had good-looking rail equipment since the early 1950s, and I would argue the decline was starting even then. Of course, I’m also a steam fan, so what do I know?
Anyway, to ease your mind a bit (and mine, too), we travel back into the past again with YouTube.
The first clip is footage on the Mother of Railroads, the Baltimore and Ohio. The first part of the clip is notable on two counts. One, it features the Cincinnatian, a home-made streamliner rebuilt from 1920s vintage equipment in the road’s huge repair shops at Mount Clare in Baltimore. That includes the locomotive in the clip, one of 20 engines named for US presidents delivered for the road’s centenial in 1927. A sister engine to the streamlined 5304 appears later in the clip; this engine, an unstreamlined machine numbered 5300, survives in the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore.
Paint colors on eastern roads tended to be more conservative than the oranges, reds, yellows, and silvers of western roads, but the B&O’s blue, grey, and black (recalling the Civil War) is, to my eye, a wonderfully classy and understated scheme.
In addition to this, this initial footage with the Cincinnatian is shot in Parkersburg, W.Va., with the train departing westbound from the Princess Street station. Note that the train rolls over a section of street trackage before starting onto the approach to the bridge across the Ohio–and note that the street drops down, with the bridge approach, stone piers and all, continuing down the street! Check out the buildings on each side of the street, with upper floors at track level! Check out the shot of the train “flying” across downtown Parkersburg! At least some of those buildings and the bridge are still there. On top of that, the Anne Street station on the lower level of the town, which served another B&O line (this one running along the Ohio instead of crossing it) was also on a line with track above streets, including the platforms, like the El in Chicago. What would the people of Palo Alto think of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbCFdocYkiA
One of the iconic trains of the grand age was the 20th Century Limited of the New York Central. This train is among several that appear in the next two clips, featuring the NYC’s 4-6-4 locomotives; there is even color footage of the streamliner that appears to date to about 1940, as the first streamlined version of the train is apparently in transition between its first and second (slightly) different paint schemes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0AGYIVjNIg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXr6RZCIR2A&feature=related
Enjoy.
jimsf Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
First its just amazing how fast and graceful those clunky mechanical monsters are. Two, I really like those locos that have the streamliner look in the front but are still steam. As a technology, in a time when technology wasn’t exactly commonplace, the modern steam locos must have been a wonder to behold for the people of the time. ( Yeh I know, sounds like Im talking likes it was ancient greece or something,)
jimsf Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
still. I dont like the japanese trains. period. ugly. tiny airplane windows. bleh.
Now, if we go with this one, it comes with cool
bonus music
or for a more
american appeal
James Fujita Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
If trains were people, you’d be called racist, Jim.
jimsf Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
Wow this guy is like the steve jobs of alstom or something. This presentation is so apple
D. P. Lubic Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 9:45 pm
Hello again, Jim,
That is an impressive presentation! As I said in another post, we’ve become stuck in the mud, at least as far as the brains of our managers are concerned, both in government and in business. If the chance comes later on, I’ll have more to say about that in regard to the job market.
In the meantime, trains are more fun, which for me, means steam, followed very closely by interurbans. I have some material in mind for the interurbans (and Nathaniel will like some of that), but for now, we’ll stay with steam.
Now, I’m going to warn you, this is anything but high speed operation, but as the Alstom presenter noted, not everything rail is or should be high speed, such as certain connecting services (i.e., streetcars). In this case, I’m speaking of railroads to scenic places, such as the narrow-gauge roads of Alaska and Colorado, and the sadly long-gone Mount Tamalpais & Muir Woods Railroad to the north of San Francisco. That road, billed as “the crookedest railroad in the world,” looks like it was something to ride!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpI7ZBuB9GA&feature=related
Amazingly, we have a fairly close relative to the Mount Tamalpais & Muir Woods in the east. This is the Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia, operated as a state park. It’s a former logging railroad, featuring an average climb of 5%, several stretches of 8%, two sections at 11%, and at one time had a short piece of 13%! In addition to this, the road has two switchbacks (where the train reverses direction to gain altitude), and curves as sharp as 40 degrees in 100 feet. The curves limit car length to 40 feet. Coming back down requires the use of hand brakes to supplement the air system, same as it has been for over 100 years.
Such a railroad would break the heart of the stoutest rod engine, and even today, it is a railroad world to which the most modern diesels dare not venture. Power is a specialized industrial locomotive, called a Shay. This type of engine has a frame along the lines of a flat car, with the boiler mounted on the left side, while a veritical engine (much like one in your car, but running on steam), is on the right side. This engine spins a drive shaft that runs along the right side, turning bevel gears, which in turn spin ring gears, which are attached to the axles. The axles are mounted in trucks like a diesel, and are all connected by the drive shaft; if one wheel turns, all the others (from 8 to 16, depending on the engine’s size) also turn. Top speed is maybe 12 mph, but the engines can almost climb a tree and will run on track that would scare a handcar.
Here we go up to Bald Knob, second highest peak in West Virginia. Take note of the start at 5:00. This is at Oat Run, a water stop for the thirsty engines. The tank is actually below track level, and the engines have steam syphons to draw the water up. Those syphons came in handy on temporary spurs, too, when no tank was handy but a mountain stream was. The fascinating thing about this start is that it is on one of the 8% sections! Open the throttle, charge the cylinders, then release the brakes, and start kicking the train uphill! Everyday job on this railroad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDJkzW7ligQ
Part of why people ride this railroad–on a clear day, five states are visible from the upper terminal. If you’re game, you can rent the parked caboose at the end of the line, and I think the former firespotter’s cabin is available, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xGgnVxp9sQ
There are some funny stories from this road. One, which I’ve mentioned here before, was how a woman buttonholed the park superintendent about the cinders that made all sorts of greasy spots on her clothes. She was most upset as she screamed at him, “You’ve ruined my clothes! You’ve ruined my clothes! Your brochure says you run a steam train! It does not say you run a coal train!” Where did she think the steam came from?
I once had the chance to talk to a conductor from this railroad when he was touring a roundhouse that is under restoration in Martinsburg, W.Va. He mentioned that passengers on the Cass Scenic were sometimes unreasonable about things like thinking they were guarenteed a seat. This is because the road does not have reserved seating; you just buy a ticket and get on the train. He advised people who had trouble with this arrangement to wait until the train was in the middle of some trees, and then to point out into the woods and shout, “Look, a bear!” (There are bears in the woods, too, and they and the deer can make things interesting if you are staying in the caboose up on the mountain.) The idea was that everyone would jump up to look at the bear, asking “Where?!” While everyone else was up, you would sit down.
I asked him what you would do if someone wanted his seat back. He said you simply tell the other guy, “You move your feet, you lose your seat.”
I have to say, this sounds like my kind of railroad–colorful history, beautiful scenery, fun employees, and of course, steam engines. Bet you would like it, too.
Enjoy.
jimsf Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:08 am
rr grade today
D. P. Lubic Reply:
September 16th, 2010 at 4:48 am
Most fascinating to see the same locations as in Edison’s footage after a century–thanks.
Outside of the tree species (heavy on the pines and lower brush instead of the decidious trees of the east), this looks a lot like my West Virginia, at least based on what I could see in the video.
http://www.co.marin.ca.us/depts/lb/main/crm/photoalbums/railroadalbum/railroadmain.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Tamalpais_%26_Muir_Woods_Railway
General search link:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=mount+tamalpais+%26+muir+woods+railroad&FORM=HPNTDF&pc=HPNTDF&src=IE-SearchBox
It’s my understanding that one of the engines has survived after being sold to a logging road, actually several years before the end of operations, and that it was one of the newer engines on the line to boot.
You know San Francisco better than I do. What would be the odds (terribly long, I know) of rebuilding this railroad? Would it be worthwhile to do so, possibly even as the electric trolley line that was originally proposed?
jimsf Reply:
September 16th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
It would be a great idea but its in an area now, where the people, the bike enthusiasts and the neighbors, would never allow it. Marin Co is the Granola eating, well off ex hippie cousin of San Mateo Co. “Public transit it good as long as its somewhere else and for someone else”
Not only is there a solid anti growth sentiment, but there are towns, like Bolinas for instance, who don’t even want outisders to visit. They have been removing the caltrans signs that point the way, for decades. I think caltrans finally gave up.
The community is perhaps best known for its reclusive residents. Historically, it is only accessible via unmarked roads; any road sign along nearby Highway One that points the way into town has invariably been torn down by local residents.[3] Bolinas and its reclusive reputation are featured in the 1981 novel Ecotopia Emerging by Ernest Callenbach. It was also the mythical setting for Richard Brautigan’s novel In Watermelon Sugar”
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
@ Andre Peretti
> It seems Londoners are very disappointed with Hitachi “bullet trains” imported from Japan.
It is not a bullet train(aka Shinkansen); it is one of Hitachi’s regular train model that was made to go faster than they do in Japan.
This is the risk associated with using a train model not used in the vendor’s native country, and why California should stick with proven models that have been used in the vendor’s native country for at least 4 years to iron out all the issues in advance.
Victor Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Then If It’s Japanese Export Train, We need the manufacturer to test the Export Trains on their rails first to see if they pass muster or not, Before being approved for use on Our Rails.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
@ Victor
> Then If It’s Japanese Export Train, We need the manufacturer to test the Export Trains on their rails first to see if they pass muster or not
Japanese export-only trains can’t run on Japanese tracks. For example, efSET is too heavy to run on Shinkansen track, even if you disregard the fact that signaling is totally different.
This is why you shouldn’t trust Japan’s export-only models, as there is no way to test them in real world conditions in Japan.
Victor Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
What they have no suitable test track? Shock… ;) I’d rather buy the KTX-II instead in any case, As It’s TGV based and Their more closer to what the CHSRA wants and needs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express
Useless Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 7:38 am
@ Victor
> What they have no suitable test track? Shock…
They may have circular test tracks, but these export models cannot be tested on real world tracks.
This is the reason for Javelin’s troubles in Britain HS1, because Hitachi had no real-world track to test them in Japan.
nobody important Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 11:11 am
The KTX-II is not TGV based at all. You must be thinking of KTX-I
Andre Peretti Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
I know they are not bullet trains but the public has been made to believe they were. That’s why I used quotation marks.
One advantage of going with Shinkansen models is that JR Central’s export model, the N700-I, has an absurdly high power-to-weight ratio, ensuring much better acceleration profile than the European competition, especially the low-powered Velaro. Since the CAHSR runtime simulations only employed the Velaro, it means that using the N700-I can provide extra buffer time, or compensate for some of the Bay Area’s stupid decisions about not easing curves.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
Or it would allow the trains to slow while they traveled through the Central Valley cities and quickly accelerate again to full cruising speed, while still meeting the stringent time limitations.
nobody important Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
I really can’t be bothered with the math but I’m not sure higher acceleration will get you there quicker even though the N700I can’t get up to 220mph. That might not be the model they sell anyway.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
The trains can be uprated to run at 220 mph. Just look at the CRH2s running in China. They’re based on the E2 Series Shinkansen with a design speed of 315 km/h, but running at 350 km/h as modified in China.
Useless Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
@ Peter
> Just look at the CRH2s running in China. They’re based on the E2 Series Shinkansen with a design speed of 315 km/h, but running at 350 km/h as modified in China.
E2′s design speed limit is 270 km/hr. When Kawasaki and JR East found out that Chinese were running them beyond their speed limit, Kawasaki went the Chinese and obtained a release document, stating that the Japanese weren’t responsible for what happened with CRH2 from now on.
This was often cited as an example of Chinese disregard for safety.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:47 pm
Actually, China lowered the speed limit of the unmodified E2s. The imported trains are limited to 250, not 350. The trains that do 350 are a locally produced modified version.
Useless Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 7:35 am
@ Alon Levy
> The trains that do 350 are a locally produced modified version.
And Kawasaki denied all responsibilities to those modified trains.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
Yes, because they were manufactured by a different company. It has no more responsibility to them than Alstom has to the KTX-II.
Andre Peretti Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:43 am
The same trains run faster in China, even when unmodified. The CR-5 are ETR-600 Pendolinos (minus tilting). They run at 125mph in Europe and 156mph in China.
Actually, a train’s commercial speed also depends on cost analyses: the higher the speed, the higher the cost (power consumption+maintenance of track and rolling stock). These costs may matter less in China than in the West.
The type of signalling system is also important. Virgin will run its Pendolinos at 140mph when the signalling system is upgraded.
Are the Chinese taking risks with safety? A major accident would deal a severe blow to their credibility, and they couldn’t hide it from the media as they used to in the past.
Useless Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 7:34 am
@ Andre Peretti
> Are the Chinese taking risks with safety?
Valuation of human life is different in China than in the rest of world. In other word, your loss doesn’t matter even if you are an Olympic gold medalist, because there are a million others to replace you.
> A major accident would deal a severe blow to their credibility, and they couldn’t hide it from the media as they used to in the past.
CRH trains do break down once every 4 month at the moment. The frequency will increase as they age.
wu ming Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Valuation of human life is different in China than in the rest of world. In other word, your loss doesn’t matter even if you are an Olympic gold medalist, because there are a million others to replace you.
bullshit. people in china value human life in a manner much like anywhere else, more for people they know, and less for strangers. the chinese government and chinese corporate bosses might not give a damn about peons, but that’s not as different from other places as one would expect. what’s missing isn’t a value on human life, so much as a mechanism for everyday people to make the government and corporations pay for doing things that harm everyday people.
there is a great deal of popular upset at the abuse of everyday people at the hands of cops, corporations, and corrupt local government. they just have a much harder time suing or protesting or voting people out of office than their counterparts elsewhere do. that doesn’t mean people don’t care about human life, just because there are more total chinese than americans.
ks Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
My grandparents were Chinese. But I have to agree that in China, nation always come first before individuals. This has to do with Confucius’ teachings. Which is why Chairman Mao once said he didn’t fear nuclear warfare: should 200 million Chinese perish, there would still be another 200 million.
In one instance, a Chinese table tennis player named He Zhili, was told by her coach to ‘lose’ to her team mate. She didn’t obey the instruction, and went on to win the tournament. Unfortunately, she angered her coach and was dropped from the national team. She subsequently migrated to Japan, married a Japanese, and played for her host nation.
That said, current PM Wen Jiaobao seems to be really care about his people. Perhaps Chinese values are slowly changing…
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 11:05 pm
Well, the same Confucian teachings got imparted to Japan and Korea. The Western stereotype is that all Asians have a hive mentality, not just Chinese. (The reality is that your grandparents are probably no less individualist than Britons and Italians of the same age. Surprisingly many ideas that are now stereotyped as Asian values were praised by Western conservatives well past World War Two.)
Useless Reply:
September 18th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
@ ks
> That said, current PM Wen Jiaobao seems to be really care about his people. Perhaps Chinese values are slowly changing…
Not at all, Wen is actually being ostracized within the CCP for his reform-centric views. Wen is a good man, but a rare one within Chinese politics.
Useless Reply:
September 18th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
@ wu ming
> bullshit. people in china value human life in a manner much like anywhere else
If that was the case, Chinese cars would actually hold up in a crash, melamine-tainted milk wouldn’t have returned, or Chinese rail operators wouldn’t speed their trains beyond their design speed limit.
Let’s face it; life really is cheap in China. I can basically run over a Chinese person in China and not face any prosecution by paying $30,000 to the dead man’s family to settle the case; that’s the price of single average Chinese individual’s life. CRH380A is designed by people who think it’s cheaper to pay out compensation than to spend money to test it thoroughly and make it safe. This is how Chinese rail operators could speed trains beyond their design speed limit and bring out “new models” only after a few months of testing. It’s an entirely different set of mind than what we are used to and you have to be aware of that when dealing with Chinese.
> the chinese government and chinese corporate bosses might not give a damn about peons
It is not just government officials and corporate bosses, but average people too. There was an instance of a Chinese elderly man collapsing on the street and no Chinese person nearby numbering in hundreds would come to his help. The only person who helped that elderly man and called in 911 was an American.
When you collapse on the Chinese street or is injured in accident, you have to call 911 yourself, since no other person nearby would. You collapsing on the street is simply none of their business.
> that’s not as different from other places as one would expect.
It is very very different. I know I will be helped when I collapse on America’s street. I must not pass out and be able to dial 911 myself if I was about to collapse on Chinese street.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
The 700T is already an uprated version of the 700 Series.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
In principle, the N700-I is limited to 330 km/h. But it should be capable of higher speeds; its air resistance shouldn’t be any higher for the Fastech 360, which was rated at 360, and its tractive force is higher.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
And the only reason the E5 and E6 Shinkansen were not certified for higher speeds was that the braking distance from full speed would have been too long, IIRC.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
No, there was also a noise emission issue involved. The E5 was too noisy for regular service at 360, so it had to be slowed to 320.
Drunk Engineer Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
The FRA will rectify that problem.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Drunk Engineer, will you marry me?
bleh Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
There’s no reason you couldn’t uprate the Velaro’s power the way you could uprate the Shinkansen’s speed. It just wasn’t necessary till now.
The reason Shinkansen trains need so much power is less about travel time (the effect is miniscule) and more about congestion. The Tokaido has a line speed, if every train travels at that speed throughput is maximized. Trains accelerating take up valuable slots that could be used for more trains so you want to minimize the time spent accelerating.
The Shinkansen’s major advantages over the European trains is weight and especially the uniform weight distribution. The downside is that the FRA would probably nix any track sharing with Caltrain or Metrolink, even if those use UIC style EMUs. Yeah, with PTC that’s stupid but when did that ever stop the FRA?
The other advantage is aerodynamics. But hey, who cares if it saves billions in tunnel size and noise mitigation, those trains are ugly.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
I don’t think uprating the Velaro is as easy. It would require actual modifications for the train, whereas the N700-I could easily travel at higher speed. Evidently, Siemens built the train with its current power rating, knowing full well that existing TGV models were superior. Most TGVs have about 23 kW/t, same as the newer domestic Shinkansen; the Velaro has 19.7.
As for the FRA, I’m still optimistic, based both on past statements it’s made and on Amtrak’s beliefs about what rulings it will make in the future. Namely, in the 1990s it was ready to allow lightweight Acelas; it changed its mind only when the PTC installation dragged on, and Congress demanded starting running the trains even if the signals were not yet in place. And Amtrak’s NEC upgrade plan states that once the national PTC mandate goes online, it will be able to use lighter trains; it makes no statement about off-the-shelf designs or about crash survivability, but it makes no statement about UIC rules, either.
I’m especially optimistic about track-sharing with commuter trains. The FRA’s official excuse for the buff strength rule is that American freight trains are uniquely heavy. It’s ignorant, but it suggests that track-sharing with commuter trains is okay. Even the FRA knows that collisions with a 10,000-ton train and collisions with a 400-ton trains are different.
If hey lend us money does that mean we have to buy their trains? AR they looking to lend us money so we can hire them to build the system? or build the trains? or lend us money if we let them operate the system? Or some combination of the above?
I agree with Robert that is it absolutely ridiculous that America, or even just California, has to go begging around the world for a few billion dollars to do anything. 30 years ago this would have been considered by Americans to be an unacceptable embarrassment. The whole world use to owe us money.
I think we still do lend money overseas, though, so maybe we should just knock that off for a couple months and use that money for stuff we need at home.
The whole mess is unseemly and just a little pathetic, from national pride standpoint. You sure wouldn’t see the French or the Germans asking Japan to fund and build their infrastructure. Those countries still take pride in what they can accomplish.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Jim, I have to agree. We used to be the leading country in technological development. Unfortunately for us, I think we had too much success, and got set in our ways. Much of this had its roots in popular demand; cars were the hottest thing back in the 1940s and 1950s, and this had much to do with the demand by the public of the time for more roads. But that day has long past, and on top of that, the auto and oil industries have essentially been knocking into the saturation wall for a long time (John Keats, in his book, “The Insolent Chariots,” published in 1958, suggested the problem went back as far as 1950). It’s my opinion that they’ve been fighting to avoid a decline in profits by supressing the rail competition (which actually makes them quite fearful of the rail option). The hardening of the mental arteries in the auto-culture generation is another factor, and one could consider the anti-tax, incompetent government movement another.
So often you hear of the house in the suburbs and the personal car as the embodiment of “the American dream.” I’ve been arguing that was the definition of “the dream” in 1956, but did that definition fit in 1906, 1776, or in 2006? Will it fit in the future years of 2016 or 2026?
jimsf Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:49 pm
It won’t fit in any of the years with 6 in them, or the years that contain 2s, or that consist of 12 months.
YesonHSR Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Regan and 1980 is the start of all this visionless thinking..its now coming home in degrading infrastucture and mindless screaming about the cost of everything as waste..at least everything that does some long term investment..
Alon Levy Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
France did ask the US to fund and build the first LGV. The national government refused to give money to the project, so SNCF had to float bonds on Wall Street instead.
Andre Peretti Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
France did not specifically ask the US. The bonds were floated on the financial markets and Wall Street happened to buy most of them.
The SNCF’s situation at the time was very different from CHSRA’s today. It was an established company whose previous loans had been repaid on time. CHSRA is a new-born company. It has no record, no rating in Wall Street. In that case, banks want guarantees.
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Well, recently we’ve just been giving billions of dollars away, not even lending them. And that money has mainly disappeared into black holes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
William Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
The US already kind of “borrow” money from the rest of the world by issuing and selling bonds. Of course promise to buy Japanese trains will make getting Japanese loan smoother and quicker.
The British cannot resist a video of the Governor riding a Japanese train. Arnold Schwarzenegger impressed with Japanese bullet train
jimsf Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Those trains are ugly and so is the paint job. I do like that the conductors wear the white gloves though. Very classy. Our HSR staff should wear white gloves for sure and those smart hats.
As for the Governor, if he can do all this then getting HSR done should be a piece of cake.
William Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:03 pm
Newer Shinkansen trains are designed with this kind of nose in order to reduce aerodynamic noise, specifically tunnel booms. European trains was able to avoid this by having larger diameter tunnels and narrower trains when comparing to Shinkansen trains.
If tunneling cost is not very different, I suggest CAHSR to design their tunnels with the larger European diameters. The case for this is the THSR 700T train, which is based on Shinkansen 700 but with a shorter, sharper nose.
Victor Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:09 am
Who cares about the paint job, Here that would be different, Possibly like proposed, Blue and Yellow. As to the shape being ugly, If You want fast speeds then looks are going to be less important. Tunnel design may be an important factor in their design, But then to make an Omelet, One needs to break some eggs.
nobody important Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 11:19 am
I hate that goddamn paintjob in the 3d renderings.
Why doesn’t Japan invest in the system and then take a cut of the profits? A loan is simply part of the state or federal share if profits are not made.
If Japan doesn’t get a guarantee then I think the loan would be a good thing. If they are going to be paid back by the state or feds, I say no.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
If they loan the system the money they get a cut of the profits – as interest – for a limited amount of time. If they invest in the system they get a cut of the profits until someone buys them out.
Spokker Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
The point is this. The loan is a good thing if, should the California High Speed Rail project fail to turn a profit, the Japanese lender takes all of the risk. This is investment.
If the state or feds guarantee the loan will be repaid anyway, then this is not really investment, but public funding.
OT: San Jose votes for aerial structure:
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/09/13/daily44.html
Mt. View votes against a station:
http://www.mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=3345
Peter Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Re San Jose: That’s good news. Now they just need to come up with a station design that looks classy and doesn’t break the piggy bank.
Clem Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Oh, San Jose… Just as long as it’s “iconic” and “signature” and all that jazz, everything is fine by them.
synonymouse Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
If you haven’t figured it out yet, San Jose has LA envy.
But obviously some of you have figured out that “sovereign” loans will ultimately require a kickback.
The more I see the I just want to vote no and go back to square one.
StevieB Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
The rail authority is unlikely to be able to bribe Japanese officials. They are not the CIA and Japan is not Afghanistan.
BMF From San Diego Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
As a recent relocatee to LA, that woulb a mofo improvement if they tried to be like LA, especially the Westside and the gungho attitude toward improving transit.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
September 14th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
So here’s my question about San José – wasn’t the Guadalupe Freeway extension just completed within the last 10 years? Which is an above-ground viaduct for much of its length north from Interstate 280 to Highway 101? And therefore “divides” the city with a typical Caltrans concrete design?
I’m not a fan of freeway construction, at least not in this day and age. Yet San José seems to have had no problems with the freeway, yet demands that the aerial be “iconic.”
Nathanael Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 4:15 am
Well, that simplifies the station location plans in the Peninsula. I’m surprised that any city would vote AGAINST giving itself a station — but boy is that easy to accomodate.
StevieB Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 7:38 am
Mountain View was not named as a possible station location in the Revised Bay Area to Central Valley Program EIR/EIS so they are already accomodated.
Joey Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
I thought it was Mountain View who suggested itself as a potential station location to begin with.
Some interesting bits on Arnold Schwarzenegger’s KTX-II ride.
The train went from 100 km/h -> 300 km/h -> full stop on a 46 mile corridor. The other rides(CRH3 and E5) apparently did not hit 300 km/h during the demo run
This is a very impressive acceleration performance by KTX-II, a locomotive pulled train that beats lighter Shinkansen 700 series on acceleration and is far superior to TGV’s acceleration.
Joey Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
What’s the KTX-II’s power-to-weight ratio?
nobody important Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
I’m skeptical about Hyundai-Rotem since they built the new SEPTA Silverliner V trains and I’ve heard they haven’t done such a good job with it, with poor welding and delays in manufacturing.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Getting from 0 to 300 km/h and back over 46 miles is not impressive at all. An N700-I could accelerate from 0 to 300 in 6 miles and decelerate back in about 3.5. An E5 would do slightly worse.
The KTX-II’s P/W ratio is 20.3, lower than the AGV and the Shinkansen, and a hair lower than the Zefiro. Its initial acceleration rate is lower than that of all EMUs. So no, it’s not a high-acceleration train.
swing hanger Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Actually KTX-II has the same max. acceleration (1.6k/h/s) as the 700 series used on the Tokaido Line and slightly lower than the 700 series used on the Sanyo Line (which is 2.0k/h/s). BTW, the 700 series is no longer in production (i.e. an old model no longer in the manufacturers’ catalogue).
Hyundai Rotem promo material:
http://www.rotem.co.kr/Common/data/KTX-II090120.pdf
JR Tokai databook:
http://english.jr-central.co.jp/company/company/others/data-book/_pdf/2008.pdf
I can’t speak for the Chinese route, but the shinkansen train Gov. Schwarzennegger rode went from Tokyo to Omiya, which is saddled with curves and carries the traffic of three different lines (Nagano, Joetsu, and Tokaido) on double track, so top speed is restricted to a mere 110km/h. A better demo run would have been north of Utsunomiya (275km/h limit), but Arnie had to “be back” early to hawk California nuts and wine at a Tokyo supermarket.
swing hanger Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
correction: “Tokaido” should be “Tohoku” in the final paragraph
ABC7 put it right, San Jose wants control:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/south_bay&id=7667161
China has come to the table with money as well now.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-15/china-says-can-offer-complete-package-for-california-high-speed-trains.html
I bet they will do whatever they can to beat everyone else’s offers.
Eric M Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
I hope all these nay-sayers who consistantly say there is no other money available for the project, so the project should be stopped, take a long walk off a short pier now!!!
I’m surprised synonymouse hasn’t claimed that China is behind the Antelope Valley alignment.
jimsf Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
yep, because the Chinese have a secret communist plan to destroy california, a huge market for their goods, by funding an hsr system that uses pacheco and tehachapi instead of altamont and grapevine!
Peter Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
No, wait, it’s because they want Palmdale to turn into their main customer of their goods.
jimsf Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
the palmdale super super walmart
Peter Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
The guy annoys me, but he’s also hugely entertaining.
synonymouse Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
China is sitting on huge foreign reserves so it can afford to dangle a carrot to the auslanders. And is a country which can afford to subsidize money losing lines. My presumption is that the high line to Tibet is way in the red, but the political message is well worth the cost from the government’s point of view.
Actually the Chinese do seem to have a penchant for attention-grabbing engineering projects. Maybe they’ll offer to show us how to mine the base tunnels that PB said couldn’t be done. (or that they don’t know how to do.)
IMHO Palmdale ranks way higher on the sleaze meter than Bell. What’s 800 grand in comparison to the bazillions PB plans to blow to enrich some well-connected real estate developers.
@ swing hanger
http://www.siemens.com/press/pool/de/materials/industry/imo/velaro_e_en.pdf
Velaro E 0-320 km/h = 380 seconds
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=759160
KTX-II 0-300 km/h = 316 seconds
KTX-II’s acceleration is actually comparable to that of Velaro E, which is by no means a slow EMU.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
On the contrary, the Velaro has the single worst acceleration profile of all EMUs. “We’re a little bit better than the worst” isn’t a good selling point.
For comparison, the N700 does 0-270 in 180 seconds, and the N700-I does 0-300 in 180 seconds.
Useless Reply:
September 16th, 2010 at 4:25 am
@ Alon Levy
> N700 does 0-270 in 180 seconds
And way longer than 180 seconds to reach 300 km/hr. There is no figure for acceleration to 300 km/hr because N700′s top speed is 270 km/hr. But we do know acceleration rate slows down as speed increases.
What is known is that KTX-II accelerates faster than 700 series, a not bad performance for a locomotive pulled train.
> N700-I does 0-300 in 180 seconds.
N700i is a paper train that doesn’t exist, and may not come to exist depending on the outcome of Florida HSR bidding.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 6:58 am
The N700′s top speed is 300 km/h. Look it up before making up lies about the competition.
And sure, the KTX accelerates better than the 700. It also accelerates better than the old Metroliner EMUs. So what?
Useless Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 7:45 am
@ Alon Levy
> And sure, the KTX accelerates better than the 700. So what?
700 series is a representation of typical Shinkansen performance.
Recall that anything Japan sells to the US would be at least 30% heavier than Japanese model, and this would affect the acceleration performance.
The fact that a locomotive pulled KTX-II with 500 ton power car/200+ ton coach static compression load strength could accelerate as fast as a Shinkansen model is some feat, and this is why KTX-II may have been the only model to exceed 300 km/h during the 30 minute demo run that CA governor’s office requested from each country. I know that KTX(aka TGV-K) making the stop that Arnold’s train stopped don’t hit 300 km/hr on that corridor due to the short distance between stops and slower acceleration of TGV-K.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
…according to you.
Useless Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 8:01 am
I have seen N700′s acceleration graph, and N700′s acceleration rate slows down past 250 km.
700 series
100 km/h : 50 sec
150 km/h : 80 sec
200 km/h : 125 sec
250 km/h : 185 sec
270 km/h : 300 sec
KTX-II
100 km/h : 50 sec
150 km/h : 80 sec
200 km/h : 120 sec
250 km/h : 175 sec
270 km/h : 210 sec
300 km/h : 316 sec
N700 series
100 km/h : 40 sec
150 km/h : 68 sec
200 km/h : 88 sec
250 km/h : 135 sec
270 km/h : 180 sec
Based on above curve, I say N700 may reach 300 km/h at 300 seconds or longer.
Peter Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Based on what curve? Did you actually chart it out?
Well, I did, and according to my chart, it would take between 225 and 240 seconds for the N700 to reach 300 km/h.
Stop pulling unverifiable “facts” out of your ass and do your homework.
Peter Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Disclaimer: Between 200 and 270 km/h, the time/speed plot climbs in a straight line. Extending that straight line out to 300 km/h, it intersects 300 km/h right at 225 seconds. I added an extra 15 seconds to approximate the fact that the speed will likely not be increasing on a straight-line basis.
Useless Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 10:50 am
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1050/acceleration.jpg
N700′s acceleration slows down to snail’s pace once it hits 250 km/hr.
Peter Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 10:57 am
I see what you’re talking about, BUT…
The acceleration slows down because it’s limited to 270 km/h, NOT because it’s not capable of continuing its acceleration.
When you drive your car, you can accelerate at full tilt to your target speed, or relax a bit on the accelerator as you get close to your target speed. The first has the advantage of reaching the speed a little faster, and the latter has improved comfort for the passengers. Which do you think a passenger train would prefer?
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Actual data — real numbers, sourced! — make one of their don’t-blink-or-you’ll-miss-them fleeting appearances on the Official PB Fanboy Cheerleading Blog, and …
Are you one of the millions of Americans who suffer from the embarrassment and discomfort of Inertial Sensitivity? Well, now there’s hope. Intertex. From Pfizer. Specially formulated by trusted doctors for Inertially Sensitive individuals. Ask your physician for the little apple-coloured pills. And now: Inertex for Her. Strong enough for a man, but repackaged and relaballed with the special motion control needs of a woman in mind.
Peter Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that I had ordered an asshole.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
I’ve been pretty tolerant of you so far, Richard, but any further comments like this and I’ll have to ask you to leave. This kind of attack has no place in this discussion.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Dear fanboy, I was quoting the other fanboy’s (“Stop pulling …”) words. Take it up with him.
As for passenger discomfort from ~1ms-2: well, do I have a bridge in Los Banos to sell you.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Richard, what the hell are you talking about? The N700 has an initial acceleration rate of 0.72 m/s^2. The N700-I boosts that to 0.89 m/s^2. Both are lower than what commuter trains do all over the world – for example, the Eurobahn FLIRT has an initial acceleration rate of 1 m/s^2. It’s not a big deal.
Or are you making fun of Peter for saying it’s a real issue? If so, then I don’t get the joke – sorry.
Peter Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
He’s making fun of me. It’s ok.
Peter Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
My point, although apparently incorrectly based on passenger comfort, was that the trains won’t maintain their maximum possible acceleration all the way to their top speed. Hence why Useless’ graph is misleading.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 17th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Are your graphs coming from Tokaido or Sanyo? On Tokaido, the maximum track speed is 270; on Sanyo, it’s 300, so the N700 would accelerate faster to 270.
At higher speed, acceleration depends heavily on P/W ratio. When two thirds of your tractive effort is required just to overcome track and air resistance, a 15% increase in P/W ratio corresponds to a 40% increase in acceleration rate.
It is fun to see Korean salesperson looms up from somewhere and stands in the way of Chinese and Japanese to promote KTX-II something here. Is this another echo of WWII or something that happened long long time ago? Though I don’t know if Japan and Korea fought each other in that war. To be quite honest, I’m sick of hearing political thing like holocaust in discussions about the future HSR system. The past of SNCF? Nazi? pooh!
Useless Reply:
September 16th, 2010 at 11:25 am
@ Giese
No one’s trying to sell anything here. Rather we are simply discussing which train model is likely to be selected for California HSR system. KTX-II is clearly better suited for California than either Shinkansen E6 or CRH380A, both of which may not be able to win FRA approval, and CRH380A carries an additional problem of intellectual property rights issues.
It seems that Chinese are clueless about the requirement and bidding process of California HSR project.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/sep/19/china-japan-to-fund-high-speed-rail-huh/
“A legislative transportation consultant told us last week of Chinese officials’ surprise to learn that Schwarzenegger couldn’t unilaterally approve a Sacramento-Beijing high-speed-rail partnership. They also appear unaware he will be governor for only a few more months.”
If Chinese didn’t know that the governor doesn’t select the winning bid and Arnold’s term expires in a few months, you bet they know nothing of FRA approval process and possible legal challenges from Kawasaki.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
September 19th, 2010 at 5:19 am
This is not the first time the Chinese have shown that they are from a culture so different (at least politically) as to almost be from another world. At least one president–I think it may have been the first Mr. Bush, but I’m not sure, perhaps someone who is more a political wonk than I am can confirm or correct this–is supposed to have said the Chinese continually expressed surprise that the single most powerful man on the planet (at least in terms of military power) had to request his operational budget from Congress, and do so every single year.
Another really different part of the world in culture is the Middle East-Central Asia sector. I had the opportunity to speak with a former State Department employee on my job (he had been a man of considerable rank and long service, and was in retirement when I met him), and he commented that the cultural differences, with their assumptions of things like what constituted dignity and rights, were so different from our own that one had to continually keep them in mind, and that to ignore them, and assume these people were “exactly” like us, was a perilous thought that could lead to all manner of trouble. As human beings they are capable of virtue and vice, and desirous of justice, liberty, dignity and happiness, but their definitions of these things in many ways were not quite the same as ours!
Useless Reply:
September 19th, 2010 at 6:20 am
@ D. P. Lubic
> Chinese continually expressed surprise that the single most powerful man on the planet had to request his operational budget from Congress, and do so every single year.
China doesn’t have a democracy and doesn’t understand separation of power. To Chinese, US President = Emperor.
A similar cultural misunderstanding issue, this time from Japan. A Japanese railway worker’s view on why Shinkansen cannot be sold to the US. http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/5014123/
The opinion writer blames the arrogance of JR executives who believe that Shinkansen system is “perfect” and need not be changed; rather the customer must be educated on merits of Shinkansen and convince them to adopt the whole system unchanged. Politicians who are lazy at Shinkansen marketing doesn’t help Shinkansen’s export prospect either. In his view, Shinkansen is not what America needs.