Another Vegas HSR Update
Over at the Press-Enterprise, Dug Begley provides a very thorough overview of the three proposed Las Vegas to Southern California HSR systems:
• DesertXpress, a steel-wheel HSR train running initially from Vegas to Victorville with a later extension to Palmdale and a transfer to the CA HSR system
• Maglev, which would theoretically run from Anaheim to Vegas but would more likely only connect Vegas to the proposed Ivanpah Valley Airport
• Desert Lightning, which would connect LA to Phoenix along Interstate 10 and Vegas to this line via the US-95 corridor along the Colorado River
The article does a good job describing the three projects, which are familiar to longtime blog readers. The DesertXpress project is closest to groundbreaking and since it’s not seeking federal funding, it’s considered to be in the “lead” – although they will be seeking some federal loans, which is far from certain to materialize.
Begley does provide some interesting new angles from maglev supporters that I’ve not heard before:
At $12.1 billion, maglev’s cost is three times that of Desert Xpress, but it also would take riders to and from Anaheim, much closer to millions of potential riders. Support from state and local officials — like Las Vegas Councilman Barlow — also give maglev proponents an edge in seeking government subsidies to build the nearly 300-mile line. …
The upside to the major cost is operating maglev is much cheaper, Bordeaux said.
“We are going to operate at a third of the cost,” Bordeaux said. “We’ll return a surplus to the commission.”
Maglev might well provide more revenue, but I’m not sure I buy the “operate at a third of the cost” claim, especially not for a technology that has never been employed for a system covering this distance. Working out the inevitable kinks will almost certainly produce unforeseen yet significant costs.
Of course, the bigger question is maglev’s overall construction cost. Because of the unproven nature of this technology, I find a $12 billion estimate to be on the low side. Whereas standard HSR is a commonplace technology, meaning one can have a high amount of confidence that it can be built close to the projected cost given that the construction methods and materials are already well-known, the limited experience with smaller maglev proposals and systems in China and Germany do not inspire confidence that maglev’s costs will not spiral.
I have never expected the maglev project to actually come to fruition, at least not anytime soon. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid shifted his support from maglev to DesertXpress last year, and earlier in 2010 he slammed the maglev project, telling them “No one is stopping you” and that they have only themselves to blame for their 30 year record of inability to move the project forward. If maglev ever gets funded and built, I will be as amazed as anyone.
The third proposal, Desert Lightning, seems to be more of an attempt to get federal study money than a serious proposal to build a workable HSR system. The proposal to follow Highway 95 and the Colorado River to T-bone the LA-Phoenix line seems particularly hard to defend, given that nobody lives along that route except the few residents of Laughlin, Needles, and of course, Snoopy’s cousin Spike. On the other hand, a T-bone system would also enable it to be used to serve Phoenix-Vegas passengers, and a T-bone system is being proposed for Texas HSR. In any case, an LA-Phoenix HSR route is a good idea – at 358 miles it’s within the recommended distance for HSR to be effective, and would enable service to the Coachella Valley.
Begley is one of the better reporters in California when it comes to understanding transit issues, and his article does a good job of explaining the benefits of Vegas HSR and why it’s attractive to riders – and what would encourage people to ride:
“I’ve been hearing about them a long time, and I’ve been waiting to use them,” said Tammy Boucher, a waitress at an eatery inside the Golden Gate Casino on Fremont Street. She said she is looking for an inexpensive way to visit her daughter in the San Bernardino Mountains….
Nicole Stefko said she would feel much better putting her 15-year-old daughter, Athena, on a train to visit relatives in Southern California, as opposed to a plane. For one, it would give her more control about when her daughter came and went. Stefko said she was recently frustrated when the airline told her it would cost $50 to change Athena’s ticket.
With a train, you could buy one-way tickets and travel when you wanted to, Stefko said.
“I’d like to see $100 for a round-trip ticket that doesn’t have all the limitations on it,” she said while picking her daughter up at Las Vegas’ McCarran International Airport.
Most said the $100 price would be the optimum to get them out of their cars.
It’s clear that people will support and use HSR if it’s affordable for them to do so. Given that HSR is powered by electricity, making it less dependent on rising fossil fuel costs (and totally independent of those costs if the system is powered by renewable energy), that goes a long way in making the system affordable.
Others emphasized convenience:
But it would also have to fit their needs.
“The whole question to me is how long does it take and how many stops does it make,” said Danny Avila, a Las Vegas restaurant manager. “If they can’t tell me that, I’m not interested.”
That’s a sensible question to ask, and although it’s just one person’s view, I know I share his view that HSR is most useful when it’s fast and doesn’t have an unreasonable number of stops. But it’s also clear that demand for HSR between Vegas and SoCal is there – how can it not be, given the long traffic jams people routinely endure on weekends on Interstate 15 in the Mojave Desert.
The key question here is funding. DesertXpress would seem to be the most realistic and sensible plan, the one with the greatest likelihood of being funded. Where that funding comes from is still unclear, but that doesn’t change the fact that Vegas HSR is going to be popular, well-used, and will help support the growth of sustainable transit here in the Western USA.

One thing he didn’t write about was the potential linkup between the DesertXpress and the CA HSR, which seems to me the biggest argument in its favor.
I though Dessert Express was to begin construction THIS year? No?
HSRforCali Reply:
September 12th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
They said the EIS took longer than expected and that they’d begin construction in early 2011.
In other news (to keep the link in the most recent section), here is some commentary about Palo Alto from Jim Repass’s National Corridors Initiative, with its “Destination: Freedom” newsletter.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df2/df09132010.shtml
Desert xpress would be a sort of T bone with cahsr. I think its a very good idea. Teh cost of building maglev from vegas to anaheim, while I have no idea what such things cost, would be astronomical, I know, just by looking at the obstacles and the need for a completely “from scratch” and non standard right of way. If the casino corps and disney want to team up and do it they can go for it.
re: airline change fees… at amtrak we have no fees for changes, you get a year to change your ticket, there’s no fee to change the name on the ticket, no charge for bags ( 3 checked and 2 carry on per person) and only a 10 percent refund fee for the segments refunded. Its a big selling point. The number of people we get who express “dissatisfaction” ( to put it mildly) with the airlines is amazing and likely the main reason we are having a record year even in the midst of recession.
I fly virgin to vegas, which is not bad, but they still charge for bags and its still a 4-5 hour end to end ordeal from home to hotel. The taxi queue at McCarran is absurd.
If I built desertxpress Id build two stops in vegas too. One at the downtown (north) end of the strip and one at the south end (mccarran/mandalay bay) end of the strip. And yes, a stop at Barstow. Its just not fair to pass them up. (Those poor souls are stranded out there in the god forsaken place, cut em a break )
MEanwhile here’s some fabulous train porn. i just can’t get over how much this looks exactly like northern california. Makes it so easy to imagine our future trains.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 4:32 am
Wonder what the folks in Palo Alto think of your video clips?
Wonder why they think they’re so special? I’m not saying they don’t have a nice place, and the time of Ozzie and Harriet has a lot to say for it (heck I’ve got copies of that old show on disc myself), but there are a lot of other nice places. On top of that, Palo Alto sounds fairly large compared to what I usually see, with a population well over 50,000; the largest town on my proposed light rail line in West Virginia has a population of just over 17,000!
rafael Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 4:33 am
a) There is absolutely no need to build DX such that passengers have to transfer in Palmdale. The tracks can and should be connected and trackage rights used to permit direct service between Anaheim/LA and Las Vegas. Technologically at least, direct service out to SF and Sacramento should be possible as well, even if there are no immediate plans to operate that way.
Making that happen will require DX and CHSRA to agree to trackage rights/timetable integration, agree on technical standards (ruling gradient, top speed, electrification, signaling, traffic management, platform heights etc), agree on a location for a future connector (SR-58 corridor between Mojave and Barstow, UPRR corridor between Hesperia and Palmdale or greenfield corridor) and agree about who will be responsible for executing the planning work and corralling funding for the connector (my vote: DX).
b) The high cost of maglev is mostly due to the fact that its route stretches all the way to Anaheim. CHSRA is having a very hard time securing a right of way for the steels wheels spur down to San Diego via Riverside. Both projects are competing for funding from the same sources – including China – and CHSRA’s is already much more mature. There is absolutely no need nor money for two competing, incompatible HSR systems in the San Gabriel Valley. Whoever gets there first will kill the other project outright.
c) There are no poor souls stranded out in Barstow. People live there because they chose to live there. An HSR station there would have a negative impact on line haul times and quite possibly, induce population growth in a desert area that doesn’t have enough water to support it. Given that a federal judge ordered flow volume to the Los Angeles basin cut by 1/3 to protect the endangered Delta smelt, Barstow will be very far down the list of priorities if and when a new water bond is ever authorized. As for Indian gaming, the casino industry bankrolling DX isn’t going to roll out the red carpet for the competition.
So yes, it’s absolutely fair to pass up Barstow.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Most of the systems will be compatible by default, because both CAHSR and DX seem to be cribbing off-the-shelf HSR standards: 25 kV 60 Hz, boarding height of about 1,250 mm, 17 metric tons/axle, ERTMS. DX is planning on a 4% ruling gradient, but it’s within the capabilities of existing HSR trainsets. Even if for some reason DX gets trains that are certified only at 240 km/h, it’s not by itself a problem because trains wouldn’t be able to travel any faster between LA and Palmdale anyway.
StevieB Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
The design speed between the San Fernando Valley and Palmdale is 220mph.
Alon Levy Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
The simulations say otherwise. They have the trains dropping to 180 km/h through the mountain passes.
Risenmessiah Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Barstow is a better place for a station than Victorville.
It’s almost exactly the same distance as the crow flies from Palmdale’s station to Barstow as it is from Barstow to the start of the Tehachapi Pass. Routing traffic from Northern California through Palmdale or Victorville will decrease ridership. But by extension, transferring at Barstow could increase ridership from Nevadans visiting California.
Plus, you neglect to realize that the midweek morning Desert Express is going to have a slightly different composition than the Friday night train from LA to Vegas. Plus, it would be a boon to their local tourist industry.
Oh, and I’m sure the impact of an HSR station on sprawl and water avialability will be so much greater and deleterious in Barstow than Victorville…I mean…totally.
dave Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Barstow doesn’t seem to want the train.
http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/study-9200-barstow-council.html
StevieB Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Actually the article you cite says Barstow has long opposed Desert Xpress because it will not stop in Barstow. They also fear loss of sales tax revenue if automobile traffic on the interstate is reduced by trains.
Walter Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Barstow has 21,000 people and zero value for tourists or business travelers. How many passengers do you expect a stop there to generate? If DX actually serves thousands of passengers per day (and here’s betting they will), the time cost to these passengers is excessive to serve the couple of dozen Barstow passengers per day. If they want a rail link to Vegas, they can move/drive 30 miles down the road to Victorville.
thatbruce Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Desert xpress would be a sort of T bone with cahsr.
Assuming that someone builds the Victorville to Palmdale and/or Victorville to Ontario/Riverside/ARTIC portions of course. Both of those are niches for some private investors to step up and fund.
O/T: Why positive train control isn’t a luxury
A Union Pacific freight train crashed into a stationary one next to I-10 in Fontana last Friday, apparently on UPRR’s primary route out of the LA/LB harbors. Two heavy diesel locomotives rode up on cars loaded with large pipes. The lead cab was compromised, the engineer’s arm had to be amputated to free him from the wreckage. By sheer luck, the vulnerable diesel tanks were not punctured and there was no fire.
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-fontana-train-crash,0,1555940.story
Bloomberg News has just released a story:
Japan Offers California Loan to Help Pay for $40 Billion High-Speed Train
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-13/japan-offers-california-loan-to-help-pay-for-40-billion-high-speed-train.html
Now if this is what the highly touted trip by our Governor is going to produce, it has been a complete flop.
It isn’t any loans the project needs. the project needs serious equity funding to replace the promised private funding that the whole funding scheme was based upon, and which is nowhere to be found.
Plenty of banks willing to “lend” funds presumably with guarantees from the State. Any guarantee would have serious hurdles to be achieved.
So lets see if China comes up with a different plan.
Peter Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 9:16 am
“promised private funding that the whole funding scheme was based upon, and which is nowhere to be found.”
Because the Authority hasn’t put out any requests yet. What in the world are you going to argue when more federal and private funding does appear? What are you going to come up with then?
Eric M Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 10:50 am
I’m sure he wil try to put some sort of spin on it as he always does. The more funds that start rolling in, the the more the opposition will start grasping at straws.
Peter Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 11:16 am
In the meantime, what shape did you expect private funding to come in? They weren’t going to just give away cash. Loans were the most likely source. So this is exactly what the Authority was looking for.
China would be a lot more likely to “give” money away in exchange for some sort of concessions, or potentially even just to get their foot in the door of the growing U.S. HSR market.
Nathanael Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
The only private finance alternative to loans is going to be a scheme where the private or foreign investors get “equity” — in other words, when the HSR system makes an operating profit, they take the profit, forever.
Loans are actually better, in that we the ticket buyers will only be paying the private investors until the loans get paid off; after that the operating profit can be plowed back into improving the railroad.
Peter Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
I agree that loans are a better way to go about it. The naysayers will point to Taiwan as an example of why such funding is a bad idea. However, the main reason THSR ran into trouble with its loans was that they were unable to refinance them when the time came due to the really poor world economy.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 11:18 am
This is a pretty big deal, and I’ll have more on this tomorrow. The short response is that Japan sees China willing to put up funds and is trying to stay in the game – and that it’s absurd we have to look abroad for funding when the White House has proposed a National Infrastructure Bank and a $50 billion fund for HSR that are both stalled in Congress.
dave Reply:
September 13th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
In other words, HSR in Cali has a bright future regarding funding. The problem is where that funding is coming from. Either from debt (loans overseas) or taxing ourselves and paying for it without the debt, wich we can do.
I don’t know why Desert Lightning is being dismissed. It does seem like an attempt to get study money, but the idea makes more sense than either the Las Vegas-to-Victorville proposal or the Las Vegas-to-Anaheim mag. lev. project.
The prospect of connecting three city pairs (L.A.-to-Phoenix; L.A.-to-Las Vegas; and, Phoenix-to-Las Vegas) with a single system has to be more interesting to private investors, especially since the desert allows for an extremely-efficient “Y”-shaped interchange.