Tuesday Open Thread
I’m in Hawaii this week for a bit of rest and relaxation before the big push through to the November election. There’ll be more guest posts this week, including more from fellow Californians For High Speed Rail members.
Meanwhile, you should head over to the European Tribune to read DoDo’s latest post on Taiwan’s HSR system, particularly about its financing. The system was overly reliant on private funding, which made up about 80% of the construction cost, and suffered from some flawed design choices that could have been more easily avoided. Still, the system’s ridership has been steadily growing, and the system is now emerging from the red.
PS: Yes, today is indeed Tuesday. Sorry for the erroneous title on this post. Too much salt water and sun.
Addendum by Rafael:
Orange County Transportation Association, Veolia Transportation, HDR Engineering, NRG Energy West and Brandman University are hosting a conference called ‘The Light at the End of the Tunnel: Planning for High-Speed Rail in Orange County and Southern California‘.
Why: The conference is a discussion and exchange of ideas on real solutions for increasing our mobility, reducing our emissions and planning for high speed rail in southern California.
When: Thursday, AUGUST 26, 2010 at 9:00 A.M.
Where: Brandman University 16355 Laguna Canyon Road, Room 111, Irvine, California 92618
hey gang, my brother makes his own beer, and his new one is…High Speed ALE!
and it was brewed in Burlingame….perhaps we should send some to the Burlingame City Council to get them to knock their nimbyism off?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdewar/4924520558/
One small hurdle cleared. Those with money to burn on lawsuits hoping to delay the rail line are certain to continue.
Peter Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
TRANSDEF is gearing up to do exactly that for the project-level EIRs, and assumably for the new Program EIR for Bay Area – Central Valley.
Hopefully when all is said and done TRANSDEF members and rabid NIMBYS will lay across HSR tracks in one final gasp at halting the project. “Rail kill” anyone? OK, that was harsh, but these obstructionist really piss me off. By the way, what the hell are they going to sue over this time?
Peter Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
They’re probably going to primarily hang their hat on the ridership number controversy. And then they’ll also toss in the kitchen sink to make their claim look stronger, the same as happened last time.
StevieB Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
Odd you should predict lying across the tracks. A peninsula public official predicts the same as he calls for Caltrain to side against CAHSR.
Burlingame Vice Mayor Nagel said at the Monday night council meeting “Residents will lie down on the tracks to stop the train”
I wonder what the advantage would be for Caltrain to side with Burlingame against CAHSR.
James Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Protesters don’t lay across the tracks on the London Underground.
StevieB Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Nagel brings to mind the Tent Evangelists of yore with his damning rhetoric. “Has Caltrain sold its soul to the devil over this project?” Nagel asked.
Reality Check Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
@StevieB: FYI, Burlingame councilmember Terry Nagel is a woman.
StevieB Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Does being a woman explain how God is on her side and those opposed have sold their soul to the Devil?
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Today’s secret phrase for you is “Stuttgart 21″.
egk Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Is the lesson we are to draw that a radical, gold-plated, project that overspends incremental alternatives is bound to face stiff public opposition ?
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 6:47 am
Sometime in the 1980′s or 1990′s somewthing similar occured at the North Concord Naval Air Station. There, protestors didn’t want some type of material in Concord, which was being moved by trian.
So, protesters layed on the tracks in front of a slow moving feight train. Or, it may have only been one person.
The result… the train didn’t, or couldn’t, stop. And, a protestor lost his leg.
A comment about the website: is it possible to organize comments into topics, and allow expand/collapse of the topics? It would allow better tracking of the replies.
Joey Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Expanding/collapsing comment threads would be nice. I would also like to see a feature for registered users to be able to identify which comments they had/had not seen, though I don’t know if this is possible.
ks Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
I suppose what you mean is ‘new comments since last visit’. Yes, that’s a great feature.
If this is not possible, then maybe ‘Recent Comments’ expanded to 10 (but collapsible to 5).
Alon Levy Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
Better would be to do what The Transport Politic does: have a list of most recent comments on each thread, so that people know which threads to check.
James Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Once upon a time there were news groups where much more complicated discussions could easily be tracked by latest post and by the indented discussion thread.
One thing that hasn’t been really fleshed out is the proposed underground passageway from TTC to Embarcadero/Montgomery Station. Will there be a automated people-mover? Moving walkway? Or just a plain old pedestrian tunnel (read: homeless refuge)? Will the Central Subway project eliminate the need for a passageway entirely?
Joey Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Given the geometry of everything, a connection to Embarcadero seems most likely (probably below Fremont or Beale). The distance is too short for a people mover, and I suspect that if it is done, it will just be a plain pedestrian tunnel, though moving walkways would probably be a good idea.
Also, the Central Subway goes nowhere near the Transbay Terminal. It’s being planned to go up 4th Street, whereas the western end of the TBT platforms will probably be just west of 1st Street.
Tony L. Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
My bad, I thought the HSR route would have a stop at the 4th and King Caltrain station.
Joey Reply:
August 24th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
It will (not that it should), but only half of the trains will stop there. Also, forcing an additional transfer to the Central Subway seems like a great way to deter people from taking transit to HSR.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 4:12 am
No, it won’t. Caltrain will still have a stop there, and about half the trains will terminate there and not serve Transbay.
Joey Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 6:25 am
Did you ever look at the SF-SJ preliminary AA? They’re planning to split the HSTs between Transbay and Mission Bay.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 11:59 am
They’re also planning to incorporate a state of the art unicorn watering facility into Mission Bay.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
On all the other documents – the Central Valley to Bay Area EIR, the program-level EIR, the website – they say or imply the sole SF station will be Transbay.
To say nothing of the fact that they’re not allowed to have more than 24 stations…
Nadia Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
At the BOD meeting in April in San Jose, Bob Doty explained they had to split the two end points – which means losing a station somewhere along the line. You can see him explain it in the video.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Remember that Doty’s full-time occupation is to cause as much concrete to be poured as possible, goosing the ridership “demand” as necessary and, without fail, choosing the most expensive, least likely to succeed, most operationally inefficient, and most consultant-lucrative “technical” “solution” to each of the technical “problems” he manages to create in the process.
* CBOSS.
* 100% segregated, incompatible platforms and stations.
* 9tph HSR SJ-SF
* 10tph Caltrain SJ-SF.
* Caltrain design — civil, rolling stock, systems — determined entirely by nearly non-existent freight.
* Caltrain regulated by FRA.
* Caltrain passengers (the PEOPLE WHO PAY HIS WAGES) largely excluded from Transbay.
* Caltrain station design completely contemptuous of passenger needs and hostile to rapid accessibility.
* Transbay configured for minimal possible passenger and train throughput.
* NO OPERATING PLAN for the Caltrain corridor — just pour more and more concrete and eschew all rational thought.
All on Doty’s watch, all approved by Doty.
Heckuva job!
Where do they even find these people?
Looking at the Transbay Design Update, it looks like the requirement of at least 20 km radii at platforms were dropped so central island platforms should be not just feasible, but really easy to implement. Or it looks like CHSRA doesn’t care how Transbay is being designed.
Joey Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 6:24 am
“foodball island” would have been possible even with 10-20km radii on the platform tracks. But I believe that a number of design spec exceptions are being granted for the TBT.
Europe trip
Just back from vacation and thought I would share some observations on the next open thread day.
Even after several trips I am still blown away by Eurostar. I went from Brussels to London in under two hours, and it was only $50! Belgium has a great deal where you can initiate/complete your train journey anywhere in Belgium with a Eurostar ticket. Wouldn’t it be great if BART/Caltrain/etc. would agree to something like that.
The new St. Pancras station in London is beautiful, I am so disappointed that arrival in San Francisco will be a concrete subway station. We flew in and out of Heathrow but found the connection to Eurostar a pain in the rear. The direct train to Heathrow goes out of Paddington station and the only other option(Picadilly line) is a super crowded milk run of 1 hour. They missed the boat on this one, but with our direct connection at SFO and other California airports this will be a huge plus. LAX must be included in future plans.
I was also lucky enough to make it to Spain. Driving south from France and into Barcelona it is easy to see the new high speed line being built. A huge amount of tunnels and viaducts through the Pyrennes mountains, build the same thing here and that stretch alone would cost $10 billion. When completed in 1-2 years, you will be able to take a train from London, under the channel, through Paris, to Barcelona and Madrid, all at 200 mph.
My two euros
Jon Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Yup, the Heathrow rail connection is a pain, though hopefully Crossrail will improve things somewhat.
Alon Levy Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 6:04 pm
Hopefully London will realize that Crossrail will be the most expensive subway ever built outside New York City, and adjust its plans accordingly.
Palo Alto Councilman Larry Klein, who chairs the [city's High-Speed Rail] Committee, said the city should clearly indicate it has no desire to accommodate [the mid-peninsula] high-speed-rail station. To qualify for a station, a city would have to encourage dense, mixed-use development around the station, modify its zoning ordinances to incorporate high-speed rail and provide about 3,000 parking spaces for rail riders.
In his letter to stakeholders, rail-authority Chief Executive Officer Roelof van Ark wrote that [...] the authority aims to provide resources, “both financial and otherwise, to support and encourage the local authorities to optimize these developments.”
The other three members of the committee — Mayor Pat Burt and council members Nancy Shepherd and Gail Price — agreed the city should host community meetings and discuss the issue in much greater detail before reaching a final decision.
Redwood City and Mountain View have both scheduled meetings in September to discuss high-speed-rail stations. Palo Alto’s city staff is in the process of creating an outreach plan for discussing the topic.
http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=18018
There is no need to build a HSR station in the Peninsula. There will be Caltrain running parallel to HSR with plenty of stations. People can take Caltrain to SJ and catch the HST from there. HSR makes sense if it’s high speed. If it stops too much to pick up just a few people here and there then it defeats the purpose. This is particularly true in segments, such as the Peninsula, where you already have a commuter train that can feed passengers from smaller stations to main HST stations such as San Jose. It’s basically the Hub and Spoke model applied to trains: commuter trains (and buses) feed passengers into the main Hubs (HST main stations). The model works for air travel, it should make sense for Train travel. I realize that it’s nice when you don’t have to change trains, but it’s also nice when you don’t have to change planes, however profitability imposes such model. The same will happen for the HSR. An HSR station in Palo Alto is a waste of money.
Peter Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Well, following that line of thought to its logical conclusion we could simply stop HSR in San Jose, or maybe even Palmdale. I mean, from SJ you can take Caltrain to SF, and in the (distant) future you can take BART to the East Bay. From Palmdale you can take Metrolink to LA, and then even switch to trains to San Diego. Let’s just cut out the extraneous trackage, then, right?
synonymouse Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
I like your logic.
Peter Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Heh, yeah, I thought you might. Somehow I doubt a train from SJ to Palmdale would be very profitable, though.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Reduce that even more, there’s perfect good service on the San Joaquins. All they have to do is extend the tracks from Bakersfield to Palmdale. Or Bakerfield to Sylmar. Should take much more than 10 or 12 hours to get from Los Angeles to San Francisco.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Trains aren’t planes. If the train is already passing through the station it doesn’t cost much to stop and pickup or discharge passengers. Not all of the trains have to stop either.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
They most certainly are as, per by the world class transportation professionals of CHSRA and Caltrain.
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline cannot stop at the same stations that serve any other train.
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline tracks cannot accomodate “commuter trains”.
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline can only stop at designated Flight Level Zero airline terminals.
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline has its own completely separerate and dedicated “sterile” platforms, its own separate ticketing system, and its own insane (and highly profitable for contractor scammers) “security” theatrics.
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline gets its own $4bn World Class underground pit in San Francisco, while most of the suckers who ride Caltrain get dumped off at a secondary non-airline terminal terminal a mile form their destination.
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline has absolute priority over all other FL0 transportation (including non-HSR trains, no matter how many more people are served by them, and including all budgeting. Extinguish all rational thought!)
Joey Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
The CHSR Flight Level Zero Airline gets its own $4bn World Class underground pit in San Francisco, while most of the suckers who ride Caltrain get dumped off at a secondary non-airline terminal terminal a mile form their destination.
It’s worse. About half of the “Flight Level Zero Airline” passengers will get dumped a mile from that same poorly designed but conveniently located pit.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Many of the problems are solved by having all the trains use the same platform height etc. How much would the bus station cost if it didn’t have a train station wedged in under it?
Joey Reply:
August 25th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
About $1.2B.
Re: the update: note that the Orange County conference is going to be done in Irvine, which is barely in Phase 2. Is there a reason to do it there and not in Anaheim?
rafael Reply:
August 26th, 2010 at 9:02 am
Irvine is just where Brandman College, one of the conference hosts, happens to be. I wouldn’t read too much into it.
Peter Reply:
August 26th, 2010 at 9:09 am
Yeah, I’m not aware of any studies in progress that include Irvine.
One poll released today has eMeg up by 8% over Jerry Brown. Admittedly, the people at Rasmussen are GO(B)P hacks but if you want to see high speed rail built in CA, it is essential to vote for Jerry Brown this November.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/governor/
synonymouse Reply:
August 26th, 2010 at 10:27 am
If elected Jeriatric Brown is not going to do anything. It’s obvious he hasn’t even bothered to critique the CHSRA scheme. Just like his replacement in Oakland he’ll take a 4 year nap on the taxpayers’ tab.
What’s he gonna do? There are 3 possibilities. He can roll over for the unions. That’s what Gray Davis did and you know what happened to him. Or he can do a Scwarzenegger, who would be considered a moderate Democrat in any other state than California. Let me remind you that Schwarzie has been a dismal failure and his ratings are in the pits. Or he could move sharply to the right, in effect a stealth Whitman. He would be torpedoed by his own party.
At least with Whitman we know she is going to rumble with the Pelosi machine, something that has to happen. An expanding welfare state financed by the printing press cannot continue indefinitely.
Besides Whitman’s opposition to the hsr is hardly set in concrete. Hopefully she will get the whole mess back on the ballot.
Rod Diridon made the case for High Speed Rail in an opinion in the Mercury News last week I did not see covered here: Opinion: Diridon: And here’s the rest of the high-speed rail story
HSRforCali Reply:
August 26th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Hmmm, I wonder which is the better choice? Very tough decision…
synonymouse Reply:
August 27th, 2010 at 10:48 am
The US birthrate showed a significant decline last year.
Peter Reply:
August 27th, 2010 at 10:52 am
No, really? And the economy had nothing to do with that? And the economy is going to keep the birthrates low for the next four decades?
Bianca Reply:
August 27th, 2010 at 10:54 am
What? The worst economic since the Great Depression, and fewer people had babies? Shocking!