What Does the Berkeley ITS Ridership Report Actually Say?
There’s a disturbing trend in recent “official” reports on the high speed rail project. Authored by people who either do not understand HSR or who have shown opposition to HSR, these reports take known uncertainties, turn them into controversies, and slap an indefensible but high-profile, overstated conclusion about how their findings suggest huge problems with the HSR project.
We saw this with the Legislative Analyst report, and definitely with the State Auditor’s report.
Now it seems the Berkeley Institute for Transportation Studies’ report on HSR ridership has fallen into the same trap. If you actually read through the entire document, you see that it primarily consists of a long and in-depth debate between the report’s authors and Cambridge Systematics over the finer points of ridership modeling theory. In that sense it is a very typical academic document, where two groups with different views on theories battle it out in technical reports.
Despite the fact that the ITS authors generally commend CS on their modeling, and focus their criticisms on specific aspects of the modeling that they disagree with, the ITS report jumps to its own unsupportable conclusion:
it is not possible to predict whether the proposed high-speed rail system will experience healthy profits or severe revenue shortfalls
The problem is that the ITS report makes the same error they blame CS for making in the study – reaching a conclusion that isn’t supported by the evidence. As with the State Auditor’s report, the CHSRA is also crying foul on this conclusion. CEO Roelof van Ark wrote in a letter included in the report package that “this is an extraordinary statement for which we find no foundation in the Draft Report.”
Further, the report appears to suffer from another common error in official assessments of the HSR project – a belief that the status quo in California will last indefinitely, and that the HSR project’s claims that it will produce significant shifts in traveler behavior should be greeted with skepticism. There is a mountain of evidence that suggests ridership will quickly shift to bullet trains, as in Spain and Taiwan. But the ITS folks don’t seem to consider this as a possibility.
Part of the problem is that the ITS authors are not unbiased observers. The lead author for ITS, Samer Madanat, also authored a extremely flawed and misleading anti-HSR report last fall. In fact, some of the same errors Madanat made in that report crop up here, and are used by the ITS authors to claim that the HSR ridership study is flawed.
Let’s take a closer look at the report. ITS recognizes that the study generally follows accepted principles:
We are, for the most part, satisfied with their responses and agree that their work on this project meets generally accepted standards for travel demand modeling. We are, however, concerned about the impact of some of Cambridge Systematics’ modeling decisions on the reliability of the forecasts based upon these models.
In other words, the ITS authors did not find any evidence that disproves the HSR ridership study. Instead, they took issue with some of the modeling choices made. It’s not matter of them finding clear errors in the ridership study, but of a difference of opinion among experts on how the study should have been conducted. That’s an important distinction that is likely to be lost in the media reporting on the study, and a distinction likely to be ignored by project opponents.
One of the criticisms ITS makes of the study is on how inter-region business travel is handled:
On Page 3-2 of the “model system development” report, the market segments are defined. According to this definition, all business or commuting trips were assigned to peak conditions. This is potentially a serious problem.
Cambridge Systematics’ response to this comment is that they have followed common practice in regional travel demand modeling. While we don’t doubt that this is the case, this fact is irrelevant to the subject, which is an interregional travel demand model. For interregional travel, quite a few business trips are made in the off-peak periods. For example, the California Travel survey shows over 25% of business trips in the off-peak periods.
The effect of this assignment is that a measurement error is added to the level of service attributes for off-peak business travelers. Even if this measurement error is totally random it will lead to biased and inconsistent parameter estimates. This measurement error is in fact not random – off-peak business travelers face better levels of service for auto and worse levels of service for other modes.
In fact, the “serious error” is on the part of ITS. They are assuming here, quite openly and blatantly, that HSR travelers will behave exactly like existing travelers.
There is plenty of reason to believe that’s not how it will work. Business travelers currently travel off-peak for airlines because of the travel time involved, because last-minute fares tend to be cheaper for off-peak travel, and because getting to and from airports is difficult at peak times due to traffic.
HSR would provide qualitatively different choices. If your destination is downtown LA and you’re leaving from the Bay Area, a peak trip becomes quite plausible. If you live in, say, Oakland, you can take BART to Transbay Terminal or SJ Diridon and hop on an HSR train and be in downtown LA by 9 or 10 in the morning, and make your return trip around 4 or 5 PM, getting home around 6 or 7 depending on your final destination.
The ITS authors need to defend their assertion that HSR travelers will behave exactly the same as air travelers. They can’t just assume that’s the case. We need to see evidence it’s the case before we can accept this criticism.
Here’s Cambridge Systematics’ response on the peak travel issue:
The ITS Draft Report claims that the use of peak period service levels for all business/commute travel is “potentially a serious problem” for an interregional travel demand model. We disagree with this conclusion. In fact, this approach is reasonable and acceptable for both regional and interregional modeling.
The reviewers acknowledge that it is standard practice in model development to assign business and commute trips during the peak period. This convention simply reflects the fact that the majority of business travelers and commuters travel during the peak period and face peak-period levels of service. This pattern holds both for regional and interregional travel as the reviewers note. Therefore, using peak-period travel impedances for the business and commute travel market is a reasonable approach for a planning-level model for interregional travel.
The ITS report also repeats a flawed statement made by Madanat in the fall 2009 study he authored. To refresh your memory, here’s what he said about travel time:
Travelers heading to Los Angeles from San Francisco, for example, will consider the time it takes to go to and from airports at each end of the trip, versus the time spent getting to a high-speed rail station. Time spent on the line-haul portion of the trip (actual flying or riding time) is more productive than the access and egress portions. But if access and egress times from HSR stations are as long and onerous as those for air, passengers will save time by driving to an airport instead.
“High-speed rail trades unproductive access and egress time for productive line-haul time,” explained Madanat. That is advantageous to travelers, and they are willing to spend an extra hour or more in line-haul time if egress and access time are diminished. Air travel between some cities in Japan has become nonexistent, thanks to the ease of traveling by high-speed rail.
Here was my reply: I’m sorry, but Madanat is just plain wrong here. The unproductive access and egress time belongs entirely to airplanes, at least in California. He does not appear to have included the ridiculous security theater involved in air travel that adds up to a half hour to travel times. TSA recommends people arrive two hours before a domestic flight. Add in the travel to LA-area airports, none of which have good mass transit connections (whereas LAUS is the hub of the entire Southern California mass transit network), and it is not conceivable to me that HSR is at a disadvantage in terms of travel times. If anything it is likely to have an advantage, or would be comparable, which is all it really needs to be.
Again, we can look at reality to demonstrate the point: if HSR was such a bad deal, why does the Acela have half the market share on the Northeast Corridor? Madanat apparently didn’t speak to actual Acela users:
Barry Ginsberg of Deer Park, N.Y., boarded an Acela train after a meeting in Washington.
“It’s a lot less hassle and more comfortable,” Ginsberg says. “When you figure how much in advance you have to get to the airport, it’s a lot more convenient.”
Note that Ginsberg is a business traveler. Anyhow, Madanat’s team makes a similar claim in the ITS report, this one about headways:
Thus, in the final models, the headway coefficient was constrained by the modelers to be equal to the in-vehicle travel time.
The modelers’ expectation would be reasonable if this was an urban travel demand model, but it is incorrect in the present context. This is because, in inter-city travel where headways are longer, passengers do not arrive randomly at the stations or airports, but rather according to the vehicles’ schedule, which implies that the waiting time cannot be assumed to be equal to half the headway. There is therefore no reason to expect the coefficients on travel time and waiting time to be equal. Indeed, a recent study by Adler, for example, concluded that air travelers place 4-5 times as much weight on travel time as on the time difference between their ideal departure time and when service is available.
It has been argued that if service headways are sufficiently low, high speed rail travelers may indeed use the system in a manner similar to some urban transit riders, arriving at stations randomly and waiting for the next trains. For such travelers, constraining the waiting time coefficient to equal that for travel time may be appropriate. It is clearly inappropriate for air travelers, however.
This is merely an assertion by Madanat that is unproven. He’s basically saying that if headways are low, people won’t just show up at a station and board a train, they’ll schedule around when the HSR trains are operating. But by 2035 there will likely be significant demand for HSR trains, and headways could very well be frequent enough that it would be feasible to essentially drop by the station and grab the next available train.
In fact, HSR travelers can be expected to behave differently than air travelers – because they already are behaving differently. See the above example about Madanat’s line-haul times: an interview with an Acela rider showed Madanat didn’t know what he was talking about in terms of how intercity travelers use HSR and understand its differences from air travel. In fact, there is some indication that people living on the NEC already use Acela in the form of an urban system, dropping in at a station to grab the next available train.
Here’s Cambridge Systematics’ response on this issue:
The reviewers contend that constraining this coefficient led to “bias in the model forecast” because the headways for interregional service are much longer than for urban travel, resulting in different arrival patterns for travelers at HSR stations compared to urban transit systems. We disagree with the assertion that planned headways for California HSR are substantially different than for urban rail service. Accordingly, we believe that the treatment of sensitivity to wait times and headway is reasonable and does not introduce any biases.
The frequency of air and rail service has an impact on the time that travelers expect to wait at a terminal or a station, and on the convenience with which they are able to travel close to their desired departure time. Therefore, two separate components are used to reflect the impact of service frequency on travelers’ choice behavior.
Based on observed data and expert input, average wait times of 55 minutes were established for air travelers and 15 minutes for HSR and rail travelers. Similarly, separate terminal processing times of 18 to 24 minutes were established for air travelers and 3 to 12 minutes for HSR and rail travelers. The sensitivity to wait and terminal time is twice as high as the sensitivity to travel time, consistent with the literature and practice.Beyond this traditional “wait-time” component, the sensitivity to headways was introduced as an additional component to reflect travelers’ anticipated reaction to schedule convenience.
The proposed HSR service offers a new paradigm of interregional service. The proposed HSR headways are more comparable to the best urban rail services in the U.S. rather than current intercity air and passenger rail services. In this context, the value that was used for the headway coefficient was debated during the model estimation and validation process, and a value consistent with urban rail systems was determined to be appropriate given the planned frequencies of the California HSR system.
During calibration of the original model, there was an overestimation of air trips in markets with low frequency of air service and an underestimation of air trips in markets with high- frequency air service.
The merits of different potential interpretations and values for the headway coefficient were documented and discussed during the peer review process. The con- straint on the coefficient was deemed to be a more reasonable approach than introducing higher alternative-specific constants that would have a greater impact on model sensitivity.Finally, it also should be noted that the short headways and corresponding short wait times account for a small portion of the interregional air and high-speed rail travel times in this study. As a result, the impact of using different assumptions on coefficient values will be correspondingly small.
In other words, Madanat is in error in assuming that HSR travelers will behave like air travelers. I agree with Cambridge Systematics on this point.
Another claim ITS made was about airport choice:
The modeling approach does not explicitly consider the choice of airport or station. Given the trip origin and destination, the model determines the airport or stations that would be used for access and egress “taking into account the level of service of the access and egress modes and the frequency of service at each station and airport ….” (See Appendix A). Such “all-or-nothing” assignment is behaviorally unrealistic since, depending on their desired travel schedule, access/egress modes and other factors, travelers may choose different stations.
The failure to consider station choice is important when comparing ridership for the Altamont and Pacheco corridors. In the Altamont alternative, trips between South Bay locations and Southern California must be exclusively assigned to either a station on the San Jose or the San Francisco lines, and the frequency of service will be accordingly reduced. In reality, travelers in these markets could choose either line, depending on which is most convenient for their particular travel schedule. Failure to consider this possibility means that the inconvenience of the split schedule assumed for the Altamont alternative is exaggerated. The problem is compounded by the inflated value of the headway coefficient, as pointed out earlier. Correcting this deficiency would reduce, although probably not eliminate, the projected ridership difference between the two alignments.
As you can tell, this is intended to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt about the Pacheco choice. But Cambridge Systematics reacted very strongly against this point:
The ITS Draft Report contends that the adopted process for assigning travelers to individual airports and rail stations is “behaviorally unrealistic”. The reviewers contend that the absence of a more elaborate modeling structure for airport/station choice “has a substantive impact on the comparisons of ridership for the Altamont and Pacheco corridors.” We disagree with both points. Further, we believe that a more elaborate “airport/station choice model” is not critical for meeting the objectives of the model development and application work that has been conducted, nor for accurately distinguishing the ridership and revenue potential between the Altamont and Pacheco corridors.
The model currently uses a network-based method that assigns an airport or rail station to all travelers originating from a specific zone. The rule that is used is based on evaluating paths from each origin zone to alternative airports and rail stations. The attractiveness of each path reflects the access modes that are available, the level of access service they offer, and the frequency of air and rail service available at each airport and rail station.
An airport/station-choice model would allow the allocation of a proportion of travelers to different nearby airports and rail stations. However, such an approach would have, at most, a minimal effect on Altamont’s ridership, and then only for a few zones in the study area.
Cambridge Systematics then goes on to provide an example from the SF Bay Area, showing that the only part of the region where there’s any real uncertainty over how riders would behave is in the Menlo Park to Sunnyvale region. The full explanation is on pages 51-52 of the report PDF, and is worth reading to see why the ITS report is flawed to make this criticism.
There are other points where ITS and CS disagree on the details. And that’s typical of an academic discussion where smart people have different interpretations of the same data and how it should be analyzed. God knows I’ve sat through my share of these discussions in my graduate studies in US history, where there are very strong debates and disputes over how to use historical sources.
So it’s important to understand what this report means – and what it does not mean. It does not say that the HSR ridership numbers are proven to be incorrect. What ITS is saying is that their view of proper modeling indicates that the numbers might or might not be right. But CS has their own view on this, backed up by other observers and econometrists, who say the numbers are valid. This is not a case of someone disproving something, it’s a case of different views on how modeling should be done.
Of course, the real question here is the political reaction. We know the media is going to report on this the same way that they reported on the State Auditor’s report, despite its flaws – as a sign that the HSR project is in trouble. The media, unfortunately, is used to framing government as flawed and error-prone. They’re not so used to questioning the assumptions of those that make such criticisms.
It’s always been my view that the state legislature will order new ridership studies. That could be a blessing for HSR backers, since the current ridership study uses surveys conducted in 2005. A survey conducted in 2010 or 2011, after the rise in oil prices and the new, higher level of passenger rail ridership around the state, would probably show higher projected ridership.
Whether that means a delay for the HSR project or not is an open question. Surely we can expect the HSR opponents to demand new EIRs to be conducted. But that doesn’t seem necessary, since the EIRs were certified for a high level of ridership. A lower level means less environmental impact within the same ROW.
Ultimately, this report shows the desperate need to build up knowledge of how HSR works around the world – and across the country – in our state institutions, from the LAO to the State Auditor to our colleges and universities. Most transportation studies experts are too deeply locked into a view that suggests the 20th century will last forever. As we know, that’s not the case. It’s time for these experts to catch up, and stop writing flawed reports.

Outstanding rebuttal Robert to all this naysayer nonsense! Glad to see that Cambridge Systematics took the gloves off as well. And no Spokker, HSR won’t switch to Altamont over this Berkeley study. Again, if the “difference” is a few million riders per year because of chosen alignments, then there’s nothing to get stirred up about. And besides, the Altamont will be serviced by HSR one day, albeit by commuter overlay. All is well in the HSR world!
Matthew Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 10:53 pm
I have a PhD in computer science and wrote my thesis on empirical inference (i.e. predictive modeling based on statistics collected from empirical observation), though as a disclaimer I do not have experience with transportation modeling per se. It’s important to understand what a model can and cannot be expected to do. In many ways, high speed rail is a disruptive technology in California. We can do some approximate modeling based on flight data, on the experiences from high speed rail implementation around the world, and on observations from population data, etc. This only gives ballpark figures, and some indication of the dependence of ridership on certain variables. We can spend lots of money and time deluding ourselves into thinking we can know the exact ridership numbers, but the simple reality is that we already have about as much information as we will get. Any further precision in forecasting will likely be erased by modifications to the system imposed by political concerns (the San Fernando Valley has already had its two stations cut to one), by facts on the ground as engineering gets seriously underway, by potential funding delays on phase two expansion, or by system integration with Desertxpress or other operators.
I sincerely believe that this system is worthwhile and that the available evidence overwhelmingly supports that. HSR *is* a disruptive technology, at least in the context of California, so exact predictions are not possible. That’s not an argument not to implement disruptive technologies, though.
Spokker Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 11:52 pm
In econometrics we compared predicted values with actual values to gauge how well our models worked. The thing about predicting ridership on high speed trains in California is that high speed trains do not exist in California.
Though I might be missing the point entirely.
Samsonian Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:50 pm
And besides, the Altamont will be serviced by HSR one day, albeit by commuter overlay. All is well in the HSR world!
So you have $5B+ lying around to build it?
We’re still a long ways from fully funding the starter line. Right now, it’s hard for me to believe that Altamont will get built as well.
You say it like it will happen. But it takes a conscious effort to do things the right way, it doesn’t just happen organically. CHSRA consciously did the wrong thing for dumb political reasons, not transportation reasons.
And the problem with bad projects (or routes in this case) is not only are they bad in and of themselves, they’re also bad because they drive out good projects/routes, preventing them from happening.
Robert writes:
“There’s a disturbing trend in recent “official” reports on the high speed rail project. Authored by people who either do not understand HSR or who have shown opposition to HSR, these reports take known uncertainties, turn them into controversies, and slap an indefensible but high-profile, overstated conclusion about how their findings suggest huge problems with the HSR project. ”
Oh really … authored by people who don’t understand HSR — Oh really — you had better check some Bios Robert…
However, of interest is a quote from Senator Simitian from today’s Daily Post, which does not link to the internet.
”
State Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, yesterday told the Post that the report “raises significant concerns about the quality of the forecasting models to date.”
“(The report) should give us all pause,” Simitian said, adding that the Berkeley group was “well-regarded.”
The report was requested by the state Senate Committee on Transportation and Housing, which includes Simitian.
Simitian said he’ll spend the weekend closely reviewing the report. ”
So maybe you have no respect, but a key Senator seems to have plenty of respect for the Intitute’s authors.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 3:57 pm
It’s not a matter of respecting or disrespecting the authors. It’s a matter of whether their analysis holds up. I am not convinced it does.
Simitian’s response is not a surprise.
Tony D. Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Hell no it’s no surprise. And by the way, who the hell made Simitian The Almighty of transportation around here?! He’s just kissing up to his wealthy constituents and giving the finger to the majority of Californians who want HSR. But again, Simitian’s “nothing” on the grand scheme of things, so he can keep kissing all he wants (and you can keep receiving Morris!).
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/politics/high-speed-rail-plan-slammed-b/
SLAMMED. BERKELEY SLAMMED the CHSRA! And then they put the board into a sleeper hold and bodyslammed them again!
The Daily Show did a segment on this recently, how every time someone criticizes another person or organization it’s a “SLAM” or “OWNAGE” or an “ATTACK.” It’s all hyperbole to sell papers.
Next article will be “Berkeley SKULL FUCKS HIGH SPEED RAIL AUTHORITY!!!”
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:55 pm
This is the problem with media reports – they’re trained almost like Pavlov’s dogs to react in this way to criticism of a government project. I’ve made my own efforts this afternoon to contact reporters on the HSR beat to get the truth out there; we’ll see what comes of it.
YesonHSR Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:41 pm
Thank you Robert for taking the time to do so..CSRAH is a state agency and it seems they just take the puches without really fighting back. Thats why we need groups like Cali/ForHSR to make a statement in the media about this unfair opinions some reporters put out just for a story..We need a media presence like these thinkl tanks and nasyers
YesonHSR Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:48 pm
sorry typo CHSRA above..
I started printing the report for my ride home, then started reading off the screen.
Before finishing hte first page, I hit stop on the printer. This is a dumb report.
a value consistent with urban rail systems was determined to be appropriate given the planned frequencies of the California HSR system.
This is amazing. Let me get this straight.
(1) Given the “planned frequencies”, seemingly plucked out of thin air without any reference to foreign HSR systems, Cambridge Systematics acknowledges that frequencies are an input to the ridership model.
(2) based on those high frequencies, it is concluded that users would show up at random times and grab the next train, rather than show up with a seat reservation at a fixed time before their departure. This is encoded in the model by tweaking the headway coefficient.
(3) based on the tweaked headway coefficient, it is found that scenarios with long headways–such as Altamont–would depress ridership because (surprise, surprise) riders would have to wait an inordinately long time for the next train after showing up randomly at the station.
(4) to avoid these ridership-depressing long waits for the next train and to maintain a viable level of ridership, it is decided that the system therefore needs very high frequencies.
(5) Goto (1)
That is a perfectly circular line of reasoning. The argument assumes what it eventually sets out to prove.
We don’t have to understand all the ridership modeling jargon to grasp a fundamental truth: service frequency should be an outcome of the assumed parameters; parameters should not be an outcome of the assumed frequency!
Spokker Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:11 pm
If Cambridge did the ridership model for Amtrak’s long distance routes they would assume the average wait time is 12 hours because there’s only one train per day and people show up randomly!
Frequency is important for high speed rail but not as much as urban transit (bus, light rail, subway).
Elizabeth Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Cambridge actually stated that the reason they hiked the frequency coefficient was because they were predicting too many passengers flying from out of the way airports with infrequent air service, so one way to fix this was to increase frequency sensitivity.
Now, one might say that best practice would be to actually ask the question about why too many people from podunk areas (like Modesto and Monterery :))all of a sudden looked like they wanted to take the plane. One reason might be that the survey was screwed up and there so few respondents in the “long distance commuter” category that no estimates could actually be derived for this market segment so they were arbitrarily given the same value of time as long distance business commuters, whose value of time was already a very high $64/hr because current air passengers were oversampled.
One way to fix this issue would have been to go back to the original survey problems, but that is not the choice Cambridge made.
This is yet another example of the “whack-a-mole” type process that went on throughout the study.
The whole explanation of turning hsr into local transit is just Berkeley kindly giving Cambridge an explanation for doing the inexplicable.
Elizabeth Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:43 pm
oops
substitute long distance business travellers for long distance business commuters.
I second the request for editable comments
Elizabeth Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Robert -
Here is one plugin.http://www.ajaxeditcomments.com/#2 I’ll pay the $12.50 annual fee.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Never gonna happen. I’m flexible on most other things, but not this. I’ve been around various blogs for over 8 years and am certain that editable comments generates more problems than it solves.
I do appreciate the offer though, and the spirit in which it was made.
YesonHSR Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:47 pm
really…I need it
Dan Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 7:06 am
plus one more. Please — just editable for 10 minutes after posting would help fix *so* many typos…
jimsf Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:33 am
If not editable comments then at least deletable comments.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:46 pm
It’s a legitimate question. Realistically, air travel is not an ideal option for many of us in Monterey for getting around the state owing to the high cost. So CS is right to wonder what is going on if their modeling shows a spike in people flying out of MRY – it would defy logic and experience.
Aren’t “whack-a-mole” processes used in these studies as a matter of routine? The ITS folks seemed to indicate it was, and that their issue was merely with how this was done.
HSR isn’t local transit. But there is every reason to expect frequent headways and every reason to expect that once there are frequent headways, some people really will just go to the station to get their train without doing a lot of advance planning.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Frequency and directness of route/travel time are key characteristics in attracting riders.
I suspect with great confidence that trip time plays a large factor in attracting riders. Bakersfield is less than 1 hr to downtown Los Angeles! Palmdale is 27 minutes!
If the pool of willing people grows, yes, more trains are necessary (= more frequency). After that, yes, additional folks respond to the frequency of trains being higher.
Spokker Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:34 pm
Frequency matters more when you are traveling on the Red Line subway between LA and North Hollywood because people don’t always know or are willing to travel in the city with a schedule in their hands. You don’t always know when you’re going to get out of work. Some people may not know how long their appointment is going to take. Here, 10-12 minute headways are important.
Frequency is important when it comes to high speed rail, but not that much. Clearly, a lot of people would be more willing to ride high speed rail if it came every hour instead of every 5 hours. You want attractive schedules.
But are you saying there are a lot of people who wouldn’t ride a high speed train because it’s schedule to depart every 20 minutes instead of every 10 minutes? Those differences matter on buses, light rail and subways, but not high speed rail.
YesonHSR Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Twice an hour would be more than fine and it will still make money..all this hoopla ..these train will be FULL no dought and worth every penny spent on this system for us to use in the future.. 9.5 years to go!!
Elizabeth Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Look, headways matter some. They just don’t matter as much as travel time when it comes to intercity rail.
CS’s decision to make them have equal weight has no justification. It goes against their own data, the previous study, the discussionfrom their peer review meetings (at least according to documentation), and every serious study done on the subject.
Whack-a-mole is bad practice and needs to be done very, very carefully, if at all.
Matthew Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 9:41 pm
I lived in Germany for 4 years and took the ICE approximately 1.5 hours each way nearly every week (faster than the Autobahn, even with no speed limit). Frequency was very important in this being a reliable service for me. The fast trains left every hour, and the slower trains left with the same frequency staggered by 30 minutes (taking about 20 minutes longer). Similarly, my connecting train left every hour (taking 45 minutes), or if I missed that two slower options took about an hour each, one involving a transfer. A single ticket was valid for any combination of trains, and if I had to take a slower train as a result of a delay, I would get a refund in the difference in price at my destination (just walk up to the counter, show your ticket and take the cash). Deutsche Bahn is extremely reliable all things considered, but delays or cancellations did happen with predictable frequency. Having the schedule reasonably redundant made up for this pretty well, and I was rarely delayed by an hour or so, and usually not delayed at all. Pleasant cafes made the wait not such a problem. I usually would coordinate with the schedule, but occasionally would just show up at the station, especially if I was just going to a nearby destination.
It sounds like the model is predicting that people want to use the system in California much like I and others used a similar system in Germany. Frequency is important, conveniently located stations are important. Pretty much everything I’ve heard about the modeling and design of the system passes the smell test with me.
Clem Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 8:40 am
Frequency was very important in this being a reliable service for me. The fast trains left every hour
Did you show up at a random time? Did you ever wait 29 minutes for the next train? Did you ever wait 59 minutes for the next express? Because that is what this ridership model assumes you might do.
Clem Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 8:41 am
Sorry, italics fail. Robert, I suggest a preview feature, rather than an edit feature. That would at least allow folks to make sure their formatting, URL’s and grammar is correct before posting.
jimsf Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:35 am
or at least a straight delete feature. at least then one can start over fresh.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:40 am
A preview feature certainly makes sense…I’ll see if there’s any WordPress plugins that allow it.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:50 am
Second Avenue Sagas, which (I believe) uses WordPress, has such a feature.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:48 am
Clem, for people who plan to arrive at a station at a precise time, frequency doesn’t matter too much. But this is an inconvenience, just one that the French have learned to deal with. When frequency is high enough, people can show up to the station at any time and expect to have a short wait, which should intuitively increase ridership.
But in California, low frequency would be worse than in France, which has good connecting transit at one end. CAHSR’s connecting transportation is going to consist of congested roads and infrequent, unreliable transit, which means passengers will need a large safety margin if missing the train forces a long wait. It doesn’t matter if the train does LA-SF in 2:36 if to make sure you make it you need to plan to get to the station half an hour before departure. It’s the same principle as avoiding slow zones and timing the transit connections to be as short as possible (i.e. not the same as the TER, which at least in Nice is timed to just miss the TGV, in both directions).
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 11:02 am
There’s usually an ulterior motive in that. Makes you loiter about the station and give you the urge to spend money.
Clem Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Precisely why a fully integrated, clock-face scheduled Caltrain + HSR corridor makes sense. Now you can travel from Menlo Park to Fresno with a predictable cross-platform transfer of no more than a few minutes. Why do you assume that feeder transit will remain infrequent and unreliable? Is HSR the future while everything else remains frozen in the past?
Alon Levy Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Nothing SoCal has done suggests my assumption is incorrect. The statements we hear from Doty, Daniels, etc., suggest that my assumption is correct for NorCal, as well. Worse, in SoCal the local transit is so bad that even if, hypothetically, Metrolink modernized as you’d want Caltrain to, people would have to drive to the Metrolink station, creating the same unpredictability in schedule.
Yes, it would be preferable to have fully integrated regional and intercity rail at both ends of the HSR line. But that would require Metrolink to move beyond the steam era, and introduce questions about whether spending
fourfive billion dollars on LA-Anaheim HSR is sensible.Samsonian Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 1:07 pm
I’m a fan of running HSR like a big rapid transit system, and the “show up and ride” idea as much as anyone else.
But to say frequency matters as much on an intercity rail line as it does for an urban line, is crazy. And to use that to have undue influence on ridership estimates, which justify other decisions is crazier still.
Going from 4 tph (15 min headways) to 2 tph (30 min headways) may not be that big for an intercity system, but it’s devastating for an urban system.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Clem, the assumptions you’re ascribing to Cambridge Systematics aren’t dumb by Asian standards. East Asian HSR systems aren’t like the TGV, with its multiple spurs and nonstop express trains skipping major cities. Instead, they either are single-direction or have only a few branches, so frequencies to the major destinations are high. Even Altamont doesn’t have enough spurs to behave like the TGV, which means that the “Go to the station and get on the next Nozomi” principle of the Shinkansen can work.
This is basically a spat between academics about differences in the assumptions made. Berkeley ITS did not identify egregious errors in Cambridge Systematics’ methodology.
The MSM love controversy because it sells newspapers/delivers eyeballs, which sells ad space. Ergo, every spat, no matter how esoteric, is going to be elevated to the level of controversy.
Politicians, for their part, will shop around until they find a study that confirms whatever preconceived notion they’ve decided is most likely to get them re-elected.
Fact is, there is no such thing as a perfect ridership study. Even SNCF, one of the companies that would quite like to deliver turnkey express HSR corridors in the US, actually forecast somewhat lower ridership and a longer ramp-up period than CHSRA – the very agency that will be pre-qualifying the vendors. The numbers aren’t hard, which drives “journalists” batty. Or rather, it gives them an excuse to fill column inches every time a different set of numbers is published by authors who may or may not have a vested interest in the project’s progress and outcome.
YesonHSR Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:29 pm
The San Jose Merc has a terrible article written by M Rosenberg about this..full of misrepresentations and personal opinions..I wish I had a password right now to comment..anyone here have one?
Elizabeth Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:47 pm
That is what CS is hoping everyone will believe.
This study has real issues. I hope the Authority deals with the situation sooner rather than later.
Tony D. Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 6:06 pm
“This is basically a spat between adademics about differences in the assumptions made.” Precisely Rafael! And Elizabeth, Morris and Simitian are going with the Berkeley study because if fits their preconceived notion of life. “This study has real issues,” Yeah Yeah, whatever you say Elizabeth.
Tony D. Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 6:07 pm
“it,” not “if.”
Spokker Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 6:09 pm
That edit function could come in handy right about now…
YesonHSR Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 8:56 am
So how did you get a quote in the SFGATE???
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Precisely. That’s how I described it to the Palo Alto Daily Post over the phone just now: a difference of opinion among academics.
Ridership studies are guesses. More important is the universal HSR experience of high ridership and major modal shifts toward trains.
Another article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/transportation/detail?entry_id=67066#ixzz0sTydAPK1
Peter Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 6:32 pm
And yet another blog post/editorial masquerading as newspaper article. Whatever happened to “fair and balanced” journalism. Oh right, Fox appropriated the term and whored it out.
“typical academic document” “fair and balanced journalism” “opinion among academics” “spat between adademics” “M[ain]S[stream]M[edia] love controversy” “All is wel” “take known uncertainties, turn them into controversies, and slap an indefensible but high-profile, overstated conclusion” “unsupportable conclusion” “folks” “not unbiased observers” “difference of opinion among experts” “important distinction that is likely to be lost in the media reporting” “Again, we can look at reality” “this is intended to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt” “backed up by other observers and econometrists, who say” “We know the media is going to report on this the same way that they reported” “The media, unfortunately, is used to framing” “the rise in oil prices” “This is the problem with media reports – they’re trained almost like Pavlov’s dogs” …
My, it’s like having our very own Tea Bagger convention, right next door in Monterey.
Peter Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Versus constantly insulting the engineers at PB, Caltrain, CHSRA with the same terms every day?
Great, now even the Reason Foundation has an article: http://reason.com/blog/2010/07/01/california-still-going-off-the
Tony D. Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Well, let us all be thankful that important decisions like building high-speed rail are up to the voters/people of this state…not the media or biased institutions (and their “study’s”)!
Jim Wunderlich Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Fortunately, its not up to the voters. They didnt fund it all. And even if they did there were conditions to the funding. That is what this spat is all about – can HSR meet the conditions that the voters put onto its funding. To imply the voters said “build HSR at any cost” when they voted for Prop 1A seems a bit of a reach.
O/T: The alignment for BART’s Livermore extension has been selected.
flowmotion Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Annnd …. it includes a subway line!
Now if Livermore is getting a subway underneath its strip-malls, why can’t …. well, you can see where this will go.
Joey Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Any idea why they rejected the El Charro road alignment for a tunnel with the same stations locations?
Rafael Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:02 am
The tunnel is a lot more lucrative.
dave Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 8:24 am
Pleasanton doesn’t want it near their new Auto Mall, Shopping Center development at El Charro Rd. It requires aerial’s through El Charro, Through Downtown Livermore and UP is opposing it also both through the Quarry’s and near Vasco Rd, Actually they oppose it all over near their line (What a surprise).
synonymouse Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 9:45 pm
PA could get its subway if it ditched the hsr and went with BART.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 10:57 pm
MMMM yes trade the current reasonably fast service and the even faster proposed service, for BART which makes all stops all the time and nice wide detour almost out to the ocean. How come straight lines are so important in the Central Valley but not so much on the Peninsula? Why is stopping in at what you call podunk towns in the Central Valley awful but stopping in South San Francisco, Colma, Daly City, Balboa Park etc such a wonderful thing?
Spokker Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 11:17 pm
I give you a pass when you advocate for the racetrack alignment no matter how annoying you are, because that could be successful (it just represents a different value system than the current alignment), but advocating for BART is just plain dumb.
BART should not be expanded anymore. It has reached the limits of what it can do. It’s a great service, but expanding it is a waste of money.
synonymouse Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:06 am
I prefer the standard ocs approach of the pre-hsr Caltrain, but from the pov of PA BART could make more sense. The upscale burgs of the Peninsula could come up with the dough for a 2 track BART subway and when the UP freight eventually disappears goodbye blight. The expensive TBT station and tunnel are no longer required.
HSR to a collector station at SFO is good enough – direct lines to SF and San Jose are redundant if either BART or an electrified Caltrain is in place.
Use the money you save on the Peninsula to do hsr to Sac from the outset.
Spokker Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:11 am
“The upscale burgs of the Peninsula could come up with the dough for a 2 track BART subway”
Couldn’t they come up with the dough for an HSR trench or tunnel?
“direct lines to SF and San Jose are redundant if either BART or an electrified Caltrain is in place.”
Does your BART down the Peninsula do express service?
synonymouse Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 10:59 am
If it turns out that hsr and Caltrain are two segregated 2 track systems the Baby Bullets would be endangered anyway and a rationalized Caltrain would have about the same number of stations as BART. Plus BART has the advantage of higher frequency of service, especially off-peak and weekends, and seamless tie-in to ring-the-bay.
Everybody has to take care of number one and these towns are no exception. BART can offer them the Berkeley solution, namely a genuine subway which would bring gentrification and higher property values along the SP row. Four track would likely be prohibitively expensive and even Kopp has commented that BART would be much easier to tunnel. Don’t discount BART’s impeccable political connections – I suggest it is premature to count BART out of the Peninsula.
That said, I loathe the idea of BART grabbing Geary Street, as its damn 3rd rail and broad gauge are totally incompatible with SMART and the NWP.
Turning to Clem’s idea for a 99 bypass route I think it has merit. But I also suggest that the pure I-5 line should also be studied. If it were possible to accommodate the hsr without major modifications to the overpasses and keeping FRA paranoia at bay about barriers against errant trucks very, very significant savings might be achieved. On the order of numerous billions to be directed to the Bakersfield-Fresno branch and the Sac extension. Freeway lanes wear out eventually anyway and the rechannelization could be folded into the regular maintenance plan.
Finally and not to rag too much, insofar as Tejon is concernec, just do it!
Clem Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:20 pm
The #1 rule of Bay Area transit is: do not underestimate BART.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 10:56 am
If you have BART running between San Francisco and Palo Alto and HSR running up the Peninsula to SFO you have four tracks of railroad passing through Palo Alto. So you are trading any train anytime on any track for two mutually exclusive systems and a lovely change of trains in SFO.
synonymouse Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 11:27 am
I would do Altamont to SFO and fuggedabout TBT-SF and San Jose. Let BART or Caltrain do the connectivity. A collector station at SFO is adequate and saves a whole lot of money.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
How does the train get from the East Bay to SFO? How long does the all local all the time BART train take to get from Palo Alto to San Francisco? If people can drive there in half the time they won’t take the train. 90 minute rides between San Jose and San Francisco sound like a great way to run empty trains.
synonymouse Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Not that grim, with better mass transit connectivity. Many areas, like the Northbay, are going to need airporter type bus service to the hsr anyway.
Redundant hsr looks to be more of a hindrance than a help to either BART or Caltrain. A dual-headed chimera internally and eternally at odds. And I can’t see a private operator wanting to run an hsr that is involved with providing money-losing local mass transit.
Tolmach’s scheme deserves serious consideration as an alternative. Both the hsr-Caltrain combo and the 99 corridor looked good initially but now reveal themselves to be much more problematic. And dumping Tejon and Sacramento are monumental errors.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 1:16 pm
It’s not redundant. No one wants to take BART to San Diego. Or Fresno. Or for that matter between San Francisco and San Jose. It’s too slow. It’s uncomfortable for trips that long.
Just because the trains share track doesn’t mean it has to all be run by one company. Railroads all over the world share track and have been doing it since the first railroad met the second railroad.
synonymouse Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:20 pm
So does that man CHSRA and Caltrain will share all 4 tracks all the time? Ergo total compatability? It sure doesn’t look like that will be the case at all.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:48 pm
yes believe it or not most places where there’s a four track railroad any train goes on any track
Spokker Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Except on the Peninsula.
thatbruce Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 5:37 pm
@adriondacker12800; wasn’t there some gadgetbahn scheme to put a tunnel under the bay connecting SFO and OAK? Dump HSR in there and it’s plausible.
@synonymouse; only viable if connections between all of SFO, HSR, BART and Caltrain don’t involve a transfer (and separate ticket) via one of the others.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 5:45 pm
They’ve been talking about something across the bay for over a century. Sorta kinda got it right with the Bay Bridge but then they paved over the rails. Doesn’t really matter, San Francisco decided “let use buses”, there probably never will be a cross bay rail tunnel… mostly because there isn’t anyplace to put a terminal.
Clem Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:22 pm
We already traded a short, free van ride from Millbrae Caltrain to the airport terminals for BART hither + BART thither + people mover. An extra two transfers is a badge of honor around here. Caltrain is ultimately done for if they don’t integrate more deeply with HSR.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 1:30 pm
No people mover, that’s why BART went all the way into the airport, people are walking with their luggage all the way out to the nether ends of the terminals from the BART station…
Samsonian Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:27 pm
The Millbrae-SFO problem will need to be fixed eventually, and a people mover seems to be the most likely outcome.
HSR will be the impetus to do so. SFO and its airlines will want those transcontinental and international travelers.
thatbruce Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Every time I take BART around the bay area, I get the distinct feeling that they just don’t want to play with other transit, nicely or otherwise. If BART ever goes further south of Milbrae, those airport-paid-for flyovers that BART uses across CA-101 should be used to extend the peoplemover to Milbrae.
Joey Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Arguably that should be done anyway, but the geometry of the flyovers does not lend well to hooking up with the AirTrain…
Alon Levy Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 5:38 am
Spokker, there are some BART extensions that would be useful. However, those are urban subways, for example Geary, and not subways through the boonies. At the densities of Livermore, even an el is overkill; at-grade with grade separations should be enough.
Samsonian Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:19 pm
The only BART extension that makes any sense would be to Fremont’s Irvington district, so as to provide an intermodal with a real regional rail system. Of course that makes too much sense, so it isn’t happening.
SF’s Geary corridor (and plenty of other places) deserve rail. But expanding the grotesquely expensive, legacy BART system there makes no sense.
I have a few quibbles with it, but Yonah’s proposal is pretty good overall and shows how a standard gauge + OCS regional rail line would be better, cheaper, faster.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 3:20 pm
I should clarify that when I say BART, I mean the agency, not the technology. A Geary subway can’t feed into the existing Transbay Tube, so it would have to stub end at the Embarcadero or go into a second tube; either way, it could be built standard-gauge with a normal loading gauge. The reason I say BART and not Muni is that it would make a lot of sense to send it to Oakland to provide some good intra-Oakland service together with BART.
jimsf Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 6:02 pm
The last people in the richmond dist want is a direct link to oakland.
Caelestor Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 3:23 pm
In a perfect world, the BART system would not consist of anything past UC Berkeley, Daly City, and the Colisseum, and everybody would take the CC to Oakland and transfer.
A Muni subway under Geary with good frequencies would be the best option of course.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 4:39 pm
In a perfect world the Capitol Corridor would continue to do what it does. In addition to that commuter trains – lets call it Caltrain East Bay would continue all the way into San Francisco.
Transferring to BART sound almost as good, when is BART getting double decker cars so all the new passengers have someplace to stand?
Howard Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 12:36 am
1. The article states that Livermore BART would be a cut and cover tunnel, not a TBM bored tunnel.
2. The article states that local funding would probably pay for part of the cost of the extension, like a “future re-authorization of Alameda County’s Measure B sales tax”.
3. I think the tunnels in Coloma and Fremont, and also proposed in San Jose, were at least partially paid for by county tax dollars (like BART in Berkley).
I think it is great that this opens up the possibility of BART connecting to ACE in the Tri-Valley area.
Samsonian Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 3:01 pm
I’d like to see the gap between BART and ACE in the Tri-Valley closed as well. But extending legacy BART at a cost of $4B+ is not the answer.
Here’s a better solution:
Eric of Transbay blog, Rafael, and others have mentioned using the Iron Horse Trail. It’s a former Southern Pacific line that ran from Concord to Pleasanton parallel to I-680. Unfortunately it was abandoned several decades ago during rail industry’s death spiral. But the ROW has been preserved as a bike/ped trail, and could potentially be pressed back into rail service.
It should be standard gauge line with DMUs, or even EMUs, have intermodals with legacy BART at Pleasant Hill and Dublin/Pleasanton stations. Continuing south to the UPRR ROW in a wye, allowing run-through service south to SJ and east to Livermore/Tracy.
I don’t know what that might cost, but it shouldn’t be $4B in any sane world. And it delivers far more transportation value than BART to Livermore.
Travis D Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:44 am
I fail to see how tunneling under a community and tunneling under an already existing railroad are similar. Note that BART has no plans to unnecessarily tunnel under the railroad ROW it will use.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 9:57 pm
They absolutely made the right choice. Downtown Livermore is already a “destination” with TOD and would thrive with a BART station. Following the UPRR tracks out to Vasco Road and Livermore lab is also a smart move.
I’m especially pleased they rejected the I-580 alignment (the one that would have bypassed downtown Livermore). It’s good to see smart transit decisions still get made in the Bay Area.
Joey Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 10:46 pm
I agree that downtown Livermore was the right choice, I’m just not convinced that they chose the best route to downtown Livermore.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 11:24 am
I think they did. Portola is a quick and direct way to get there.
The station isn’t exactly in the middle of downtown, but it appears close enough.
Samsonian Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:39 pm
“No Build” is the only correct choice for BART to Livermore.
$4B for a short metro extension into a suburb, is quite possibly the worst transit project in the world.
Transit advocates can’t just blithely advocate for more transit, while ignoring issues like cost and effectiveness. We have to advocate for good projects that deliver value. After all, we live in a world where money is finite and potential projects are endless.
jimsf Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 6:04 pm
Its not about serving livermore’s population but getting it closer to altamont to grab more valley commuters.
political_incorrectness Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 6:18 pm
2nd worse, 1st is BART to San Jose at 6.8 billion. At a cost of $3.6 billion dollars estimating a $50 million a mile cost. You could build high-speed track from San Jose-Stockton. Additional $1.4 billion to Modesto, and it’d probably be alot more effective than an extension of BART to Livermore.
flowmotion Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 6:44 pm
It still remains to be seen whether HSR can build suburban track and stations any cheaper than BART.
political_incorrectness Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 7:10 pm
@ $338 million per mile estimated for the BART extension, I have no doubt.
synonymouse Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 10:41 am
BART simply doesn’t work or think that way. It should be seen as an empire with enormous hubris and a manifest destiny to tap the entire Bay Area. When it comes to stemming the BART blitzkrieg many have tried and many have died. And as to securing funds for the most exorbitant projects BART has the stirling track record that impresses and wins over politicians. Caltrain is very much in its sights.
Peter Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 10:46 am
“stemming the BART blitzkrieg”
You seriously need to lay off the hyperbole. BART is not the Wehrmacht.
synonymouse Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 10:54 am
The BART blitzkrieg is the one where the townspeople throw roses on the panzers as they roll down the streets.
Peter Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 11:09 am
I’m sorry, but in what world do you live in where people threw roses on the German tanks as they rolled into occupied towns, except for staged propaganda videos?
Equating BART to the SS or Wehrmacht is as insulting as referring to a berm on the Caltrain corridor as a Berlin Wall. It shows you have no respect for history or the people who suffered at the hands of Nazi Germany or the GDR.
synonymouse Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Let us call it BART “shock and awe” or “mission accomplished” instead.
Not to burst your historical bubble but there was a large fascist movement in Eastern Europe and it is still around.
Peter Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 4:39 pm
“there was a large fascist movement in Eastern Europe and it is still around.”
Oh, really, there was? Do tell us more about it, Professor Synonymouse. I grew up there, and I’m pretty sure I know more about what went on there than you do. Go back to doing your “research” on wikipedia.
synonymouse Reply:
July 3rd, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Ustashi
dave Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 8:40 am
I agree, at the City Council meeting they discussed the Bart Alignment as being a decision for the next 50- 100 years, not a decision for NOW. In other words the straighter freeway alignment was shown to be a “Band-Aid” solution to traffic that we have today as opposed to the development and growth we can have if it went downtown and most importantly to the LAB and it also was considered a major way to connect BART with the ACE HSR Corridor Project. Also the area north of the LAB has been designated an I-HUB by the State of California. Bart will now have the chance to serve this area while still being able to capture riders off of I-580 closest to Altamont.
This idea mentioned above was met with Nimby’s and people who just don’t understand transportation planning who argued, some even angrily that the alignment should stay in the freeway all the way to Greenville just to fix the traffic. Seems like a wast of money only to fix traffic. It was 50-50, but the Council made the right choice.
Rafael Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 2:01 am
RIP high speed rail overlay between San Jose and Stockton. With this alignment preference, BART just usurped both the 580 median east of CA-84 (Isabel Rd) and the old SP right of way east of downtown Livermore. Without an intermodal station in Livermore, the HSR overlay makes no sense at all IMHO.
Mind you, UPRR turned down BART’s request for right of way in eastern Contra Costa county, which is why eBART will run in the recently remodeled CA-4 median. It’s by no means certain that BART can talk UPRR into selling any right of way in Livermore.
Peter Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 7:34 am
There’s only a really short stretch where BART follows the SP alignment, which is where it shares tracks with UPRR. And that stretch just seems to be some light industrial. ED for that shouldn’t be too expensive.
I don’t know what the socal news is covering, but up here, all I’m hearing is about how “a scathing report from uc berkeley says hsr ridership projections are flawed and that there’s no way to tell if the system will be profitable.” This is the only message that will get out to the public. They don’t go into detail. And there are no mainstream media countering the misinformation. Is construction still suppose to start in 2012? And did they ever decide where construction would begin first? I’d like to plan my vacation so I can be there.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:39 am
The mainstream media is responsible for the misinformation.
jim Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 4:02 pm
No. Berkeley is responsible. The money quote:
it is not possible to predict whether the proposed high-speed rail system will experience healthy profits or severe revenue shortfalls
This is what got seized on. Berkeley must have known that this is what would get seized on. True, the MSM probably didn’t read the body of the report. They read the conclusion, found their money quote and ran with it. That’s what they do. Berkeley knew that’s what they do and gave them what they needed to do it.
Blame Berkeley.
Well, I guess we should just give up right now.
Next week’s Board meeting should be interesting as Cambridge and ITS get to explain their versions of the ridership study to the Authority. I would imagine that Cambridge and the Authority will pull no punches in demanding from ITS how they could reach definitive conclusions in their otherwise very short report and the qualifying statements that they used in describing Cambridge’s work. Either way, I don’t think this “derails” the project in so much as it affirms the need for an updated ridership study that should not focus on one region, but all of areas that are to be served for both phases of the project. Any new ridership study would need to be more inclusive of areas that are designated or are being considered for a HSR station and the different demographics of people that would ride it. If anything, an updated ridership study would probably confirm that their is demand for this project and its ability to connect the vast majority of CA’s population and a realistic prospect of profitability.