Sunday Open Thread
Busy weekend for me, with the California Democratic Party’s Executive Board meeting in San José. Most people I talked to there instinctively understand the benefits of high speed rail, especially those who came up from LA for the weekend. I’ve had the chance to talk to several members of the state legislature as well, who have indicated their ongoing support for HSR and their understanding that the high-profile HSR opposition and criticism coming from some on the Peninsula is not necessarily representative of that community.
More on that, and other HSR topics, later in the week. For now, use this as an open thread to discuss whatever you want to in relation to HSR.
Know of any good pictures of high speed train restrooms? On Flickr they only have Amtrak bathrooms and stuff. I saw a restroom on an old Soviet train and yuck.
I hope that they choose trainsets with a good flusher. I submitted that comment during one of the draft scoping periods.
Peter Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 11:36 am
http://www.talgousa.com/images/passengerCar_img1.jpg
Talgo restroom.
Peter Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 11:38 am
And no, I didn’t go looking for restroom pictures. I just happened to remember where I had seen one.
Joey Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
My experience is that they’re marginally better than airplane restrooms. Slightly more space and somewhat better designed (both in terms of layout and aesthetics).
Alan F Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Even the rest rooms on the 30+ year old Amfleet I cars are better and larger than the typical airplane restroom. Trains have more room for rest rooms. One almost has to be a contortionist to use the rest rooms in the smaller regional jets.
Spokker Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
I took a dump on a transpacific flight and I was very sad.
Joey Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 9:34 pm
The Superliner restrooms seem to be more or less comarable to most airliners. I’ve never been on a smaller regional jet though.
Joey Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 9:34 pm
*comparable
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 12:48 am
The restrooms on the california cars (amtrak/caltrans fleet) are quite spacious if you use the wm versions on the lower level.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Some or all of them will be ADA compliant. Big enough to have small cocktail parties in. YMMV because I’ve been to cocktail parties in Manhattan studio apartments.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 12:50 am
yes its true the ADA (wm) rooms are about the size of of a small pied a terre. on caltrans fleet anyway.
Bianca Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
I rode first class on the AVE last December and the restroom looked much nicer than the photo Peter posted. Unfortunately I was trying to clean up toddler puke (sorry if that’s TMI) and found the modern, clean lines and latest fixtures aesthetically very pleasing but I had other things on my mind than taking photos. Also, all the fixtures were motion-activated, including a hand dryer, so no paper towels. Which was a bummer, because those little squares of toilet paper aren’t very good at anything other than their intended purpose.
Andre Peretti Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
If your mobile phone falls in a TGV toilet bowl, don’t try to fish it out!
BBC news for details
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
..and would you really want a cell phone after it’s been dunked? Even if they have the toilet filled with that blue stuff.
Peter Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
http://www.crewten.com/jk_tour2_hsrhc_restroom_photo2.jpg
Acela restroom.
YesonHSR Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
The Acela Express trainsets are some nice looking around including the restrooms.. I’m sure the California high-speed rail future trains will look at the least as nice as the Amtrak Acela
Spokker Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
Wow, Acela surprised me. It looks like it has marble counter tops!
Alan F Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
No, the Acela rest rooms are all plastic surfaces. They are ok, but not THAT nice. That photo is of the larger ADA compliant rest room.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 12:56 am
There are lots of crazy amtrak restroom stories floating around. I won’t tell any of them here….. well ok one item…. if you must know… the older trains, use to use this sort of propellor thingy that, when you flushed, would do a cuisinart routine under the traini resulting in direct and immediate tracktop dispersal of contents. This was fine on the open rails across nebraska at 89mph but the signs in the restrooms said “do not flush while train is in station”
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 10:36 am
Even older ones didn’t have the macerator. It was a tube that just directed things at the track. If someone did use it in the station it was the train crew’s job to clean it up.
Peter Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
This is the weirdest threat that I have every been privileged to participate in.
Spokker Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
What’s weird about it? Comfort is a great reason to take the train and the bathrooms contribute to that.
On long train trips I usually go to the bathroom during one of the longer periods between stops and read. I don’t like to be in the bathroom during a stop though because I’m afraid a meth head will steal my backpack.
Reality Check Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
I hope the HSRA ensures the bathrooms are not so comfortable that you’d want to sit on the throne and read. Imagine if everyone did that. Might as well convert every seat to a crapper — at least in some sections … that way you could book your ticket in crapper class. Seriously though, it makes me furious when I’ve gotta go and rude/selfish people are parked in the crapper reading while I’m hopping around trying not to soil myself so someone can have a nice long leisurely read.
Spokker Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
“Imagine if everyone did that. Might as well convert every seat to a crapper — at least in some sections … that way you could book your ticket in crapper class. ”
Now you’re talking.
“Seriously though, it makes me furious when I’ve gotta go and rude/selfish people are parked in the crapper reading”
There are plenty of bathrooms on an Amtrak train. A Superliner has a bunch on the lower level. That’s why we have to advocate for plenty of restrooms on high speed trains.
Peter Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
I know there’s one in each DB IC/EC car. Is there one in each ICE car, as well?
Matthew Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 7:37 pm
yes
Andrew Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 7:39 am
Sounds like you’re working on some wicked hemorrhoids.
Spokker Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 7:55 am
I understand that you are not supposed to remain on the bowl for too long, but I take other precautions that minimize the risk.
Thanks, though.
Bobierto Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
In around 2002 I took a domestic flight on Aeroflot from Moscow to St Petersburg, the aircraft was some kind of Soviet Ilyushin and it was astonishing. Big, round porthole-style windows, useless seatbelts, and the head was like an outhouse, complete with wooden toilet seat. Not that this is relevant to anything.
Peter Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
In Soviet Russia, we need no capitalist seat-belts. And if an outhouse is good enough for our glorious communal farmworkers, it is good enough for the People who travel by airplane.
On another topic… how about those dining cars on HSR trains? What is the best food available on them for comparable trip length for what we’ll expect her ein California. Any Croissant’s with egg and ham?
Eric M Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 8:58 am
Last time I was on the TGV from Paris to Switzerland, I had duck and salmon. It was served as a full meal like in first class on an airplane. That was in a first class car on the TGV.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 12:58 am
mmmmm thats the way it shall be.
Andrew Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 9:21 am
No dining car on the shinkansen, just some vending machines and a woman who comes around regularly with a snack cart.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 12:59 am
gross.
Andrew Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 7:33 am
Not at all.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 11:11 am
No cafe car employees is the issue.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 11:55 am
we tried vending machines. The passengers hated it.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 11:56 am
Of course, putting more americans out of work is always a plus too right Richard?
wu ming Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 9:57 am
taiwan HSR is like andrew’s shinkansen description above, but there is also one snack cart that has tasty hot meals in bento boxes made of balsa wood for nostalgia reasons (the japanese built taiwan’s initial train system, and wooden-box bento were one of those neat things about riding the trains). they run out about halfway through the ride, though, so whether you get a meal or not depends on which end of the train you’re on.
Bianca Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 10:15 am
I can’t remember if the AVE had a food car or not. In first class we were served a really very good breakfast on the way to Granada from Madrid. In any case, for a trip of two hours or less, meals aren’t really such a priority, but I could see demand for a snack/bar car setup.
Shovels hitting the ground in Florida for the nations first HSR system. Though only for “geotechnical exploration”…
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=137259&catid=19
Walter Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 11:46 am
Imagine a Phase I of about 100 miles and connects two large metro areas. It’s limited to 4 stations in 3 cities and manages to includes stops at a Disney theme park, a major transportation hub and a fast-growing area in the middle.
I’m not talking about Anaheim, LAUS and North County. This is Tampa, Orlando and Lakeland. Florida is starting HSR in EXACTLY the way I would have California do it. While I don’t think their project on the whole is as strong as ours, I would LOVE to sell the public on a small, manageable, useful segment that we could get built quickly. California hasn’t turned an ounce of dirt, while Florida plans to start construction next year and have their Phase I ready to go in 2014.
Walter Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Sorry, abhorrent grammatical typos in the first two sentences–forgive me.
Peter Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 11:55 am
It helps that they had a highway median saved specifically for this project, and that they have no mountain ranges to cross.
wu ming Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
the public is already sold on CA HSR, we voted it into existence. the people that need convincing are congress and bond investors, and perhaps those CA legislators who tend to align with the peninsula NIMBY brigade.
in california, the only two significant urban centers at sufficient distance from one another to make HSR a big improvement over flying that don’t cross a mountain range or major fault system would be sacramento to bakersfield. and while we’d all love to get to play with the new trains first here in the valley, my guess is that the rest of the state would be downright pissed that we got the first leg, seeing how dim a view coastal CA generally tends to have of their country cousins on the other side of the hills.
the killer app of HSR isn’t in being a slightly faster commuter rail (although that will be a side benefit for the overall ridership), it’s the connections over distance between regions of the state. to get between any region in CA, you have to cross mountains with fault systems.
synonymouse Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
The investment grade evaluation will pose more of a problem for the hsr than all the purported nimbys in the Golden State. As the years pass it will become clearer and clearer that the scabbed-together CHSRA scheme cannot be made self-supporting and will require perennial subsidy. This is a real problem for a broke state that is carrying a great part of the country’s welfare load. Public worker compensation and pensions, social spending and entitlements, education, these have already busted the budget and the militants still want to up the spending. Raise taxes in the middle of a recession? Hardly the way to revive the consumerist economy.
Public opinion is so fractured that the dolts think legalizing weed is going to balance the budget(hint: the stuff goes wild in backyards – no still required – nobody is going to pay any significant tax) On the other hand they can’t see their way to legalizing casinos, a proven cash cow.
Chances the CHSRA scheme will be put on indefinite hiatus more due to dearth of funds than to opposition, which will still be considerable in any event.
Peter Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Interesting that you list every program that benefits the state and the population, while excluding the one MASSIVE big-ticket item that does nothing for us: the prisons.
synonymouse Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
prison guards union – you think Jerry’s going to mess with them?
Plus it’s three hots and a cot. I have a relative who’s getting out of Vacaville in February. The whole family wonders who is going to take him in and how to get him on his feet again.
He just can’t handle his liquor but a lot of prisoners are violent and hopeless recidivists. Would you rather have them on the streetcorner? Or trying to figure out a way to get into your house?
wu ming Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
legalizing weed means not having to warehouse hundreds of thousands of people for victimless crimes, which cuts down on the massive amount of money we waste on jails and police busywork. the tax revenue will be nice for prop 13-starved local government, but the overall systemic benefit will be removing a huge cost from the county and state legal/penal systems.
and raising taxes on the rich in this recession, if that money got spent downwards into the bottom 90% economy, would indeed be a way to revive the non-plutocrat economy. too much money’s stuck at the top, and it’s losing velocity. bring it back down where people spend it, and the economy will pick up again.
while most of the video has little to do with HSR, this travel video by a malaysian guy of his trip to taiwan does show how HSR might function in CA tourism, both as a way to enable a quick statewide tour in a short vacation, and a sort of interesting and compelling experience in its own right. the explicit footage of the ride is from 1:47 to 2:02, but the ease at which they pop from the north side of the island down to kaohsiung would not have been possible without a plane flight before HSR was built.
i could easily imagine a similar video for california.
bixnix Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 8:16 am
stinky tofu, anyone ?
wu ming Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 9:34 am
i feel so validated, seeing someone else recoil in horror and disgust from that stuff. thank god that stuff’s not in the HSR bentos.
I really can’t imagine California doesn’t have any high speed rail. High speed rail really helps to boost tourism, new Shanghai to Nanjing high speed rail in China is just an example, it transports average 75800 passengers daily in its first 15 days starting from July 1.