“Concorde of the Tracks” Proposed in Britain
The new British coalition government is committed to building true high speed rail in the country, linking London to metropolitan areas in the north. They even canceled the planned third runway at Heathrow, leaving them with little other choice but HSR to move people within England (and hopefully to Scotland, although that’s unlikely in the first phase). The coalition may not adopt Labour’s proposed routing, and there’s surely lots of planning and debate ahead before construction begins.
However, some are already making ambitious proposals about what British HSR should look and feel like. One of them is Paul Priestman, who ditches the typical style for something a bit more ambitious:
Passengers using the British rail network in the heat of recent weeks would struggle to believe it’s possible but the future of rail travel is bright…and super speedy.
This futuristic-looking, aerodynamic train is the way in which the backers of a new high speed rail link across Britain think travellers should be transported at speeds of up to 225mph within 15 years.
With an interior more reminiscent of a luxury penthouse apartment, comfortable sofas with cushions and soft furnishings; airy glass modules fitted with computer screens; a storage space for folding bicycles, well-stocked bar and an observation deck, it is far removed from the experience of most rail travellers.
But, says the designer, it is what Britain should aspire to – a Concorde of the tracks – if it wants to keep up with high speed rivals in France, Japan and now China.
The images on the Daily Mail’s website have to be seen to be believed. It’s definitely a more stylish and feature-filled high speed train than the usual trains, which do a pretty good job of moving passengers around in comfort.
So here’s the question: we know that Californians will ride the bullet trains in big numbers. But would this kind of trainset help boost ridership? Or are the current layouts of bullet train interiors perfectly workable? The only thing I’d think are necessary in trainset interiors aside from the usual rows of seats are some that sit facing each other, some with a table and some not, so that families can be together. And a cafe car. Aside from that, I don’t really think you need these fancier and more elaborate interior designs such as Priestman is proposing.
Besides, Californians already cram themselves into cars for 6-7 hours on end to drive from one part of the state to another, or into even less comfortable coach airline seats. If the trains have a basic level of comfort and service – and are reliably on-time – I don’t think you’d need a “Concorde of the Tracks” to attract riders.
But what do you all think?
Yes, please. I would pay 2x for a ticket for something like this… although I’m not sure that would work out financially for HSR, given that the plan above sounds like it would take up far more than 2x the space. I guess it depends on utilization. Airlines sell business class tickets, why should rail be any different?
Heck, I would pay 2x my current Caltrain zone 1 through zone 3 monthly pass for better seating, wifi and a space away from all of the obnoxious giants fans. But as I understand it, Caltrain can’t have different classes of service and still qualify as public transit. Too bad, it might help them close their budget given their current underutilization of seats on non game days. Truthfully though Caltrain should think of selling food on the train like they do in Europe. They let people bring on their own food, but they should be using one of their two conductors on the train to sell beverages and snacks.
Matthew Reply:
July 15th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Think business class on airplanes if you want a model that will be financially viable. These renderings are typical fluff that never turns out to be economically feasible. Remember when they were showing renderings of the A380 with all sorts of crazy interiors: http://www.ilgiornale.ch/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1382&Itemid=35
It’s a good marketing ploy, but it’s not likely to happen. Instead, expect something more similar to existing HSR service around the world. First class sections with more work space, food service at the seats, etc., and 2nd class coaches with comfortable, but efficient seating arrangements. A dining car available to both first and second class passengers is a fairly typical amenity on trains around the world.
Robert Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 9:33 am
Well, there is a distinct difference between planes and trains — depending on train length it is possible to add additional cars for very low overhead. On planes it is simply not possible due to the way that planes are built and operated. In the past history of trains in the United States there have been a number of successful luxury cars, such as those made by the Pullman company. They disappeared because wealthy people take flights for long trips, however if HSR will take less total time than an airplane for short haul flights, I don’t see why this statistic wouldn’t become reversed.
First and Business classes need to distinguish themselves from Coach by some sort of visibilia which is what these amenities seem to be.
Suppose yourself one of a three person team traveling to LA to make a pitch. If First Class offers a room that you can use to rehearse and make last minute adjustments to your pitch during the two and a half hours you’re on the train that might justify paying the extra. You needn’t mention the bar.
ks Reply:
July 15th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Business class passengers would like a bit of privacy, and possibly security!
But to boost overall ridership, transit to stations, car park and car rental facilities are utmost important.
Seems to me like a great way to blow budgets for the trainsets right out of the water…
Weird analogy to choose to make given that: (a) the interior of Concorde was rather cramped and (b) Concorde was not financially successful.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 15th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
What Mike said. I’d rather be wedged into the middle seat on the LIRR than the cramped interior of the Concorde.
rafael Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 2:09 am
In other words, folks traveling in economy on other aircraft were cross-subsidizing the supersonic trips of the rich and famous. This “Concorde of the rails” would amount to much the same thing. Business class is fine, anything above that is pure snobbery IMHO.
jimsf Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 2:22 am
Its the other way around on a typical aircraft. Those 5 and 10 thousand dollar seats to paris in first are subsidizing the 700 dollar seats in coach.
jimsf Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 2:31 am
actually, the first class fare on air france from sfo to cdg is $14,140 even a month in advance. And those are sold out. So 20 first class seats at 14k is like 280k. It takes 300 or more coach seats to make that much. 14 thousand dollars must be quite a meal on some incredibly nice china. ( which by the way they wash and use again – talk about maximizing profits)
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 8:31 am
jim, you have to remember that many of the people up in first class didn’t pay for their ticket. They used there frequent flyer Green Stamps to buy the seat. Or the airplane was overbooked and the gate agent bumped the frequent flyer from coach to first class without using Green Stamps.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 5:40 am
It’s more like, people traveling in business and first classes on other aircraft were cross-subsidizing everything.
It all looks rather ridiculous and impractical to me, which isn’t surprising considering the source (the Daily Mail). How many amenities would one make use of on a two-hour train ride? How many people could you expect to seat on such a train, and what would the ticket price be?
I should be more comfortable than a commuter train or economy flight, but the Fairmont Hotel suite on rails concept is way over the top.
That seems like overkill for anything other than first class on very long distance trains, which nobody is seriously proposing at the moment. Wireless, an AC plug, and a reasonable seat pitch and width (generous in first class) will satisfy almost every customer.
PeakVT Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 8:08 am
In response to some of the suggestions below, I would say that any “themed” offerings should be run by private companies who contract for a slot on the system. (The slot could be either an entire train, or a portion of a CAHSR trainset. Non-standard cars would be isolated from the rest of the train except for emergencies.) CAHSR should offer only bog-standard 2-class service, which will bear very little risk over the risk of the system as a whole. (Note that I’m not suggesting that CAHSR run crappy-looking trains with no amenities.)
I think that the Daily Mail is one of the most disreputable newspapers in the UK and should not be trusted on anything. That is all.
(Seriously- they’ve only gone with this story because the ‘British design icon’ angle warms the cockles of their nationalist hearts. Chances are the trainsets will be sourced from continental Europe or Asia just like the ones for CAHSR.)
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Oh I know. Just seemed worth discussing.
A comfortable interior environment and service are one of the ways that HSR can distinquish itself from air travel – airlines design their service to keep you in your seat due to safety and space issues, which are not present on trains. The British proposal is not all that different from other HSR services except for the double height first class observation lounge (although I think the German ICE has seating with a view out through the operators’ complartment). Structurally the diesgns seem a little flimsy – sketchy at best. But the designer, Paul Priestman is pretty top-notcha nd ahs a nice portfolio of transportation design.
One advantage of trains is that they can offer a variety of types of service on the same train – each car could have a different atmosphere and price poiint. On the Transport Politic recently the new TGV service plan was featured – it’s called IdTGV. They offer quiet cars and active cars (branded as IdZen and IdZap) as well as a lounge car and even a nightblub atmosphere with a DJ for their neight-time service. For a 2:45 (or really over 3:00 for most people who will not be taking the express) a little variety and customized service during the trip is important.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 5:09 am
iDTGV is just a brand name, that’s all. The iDZap cars are indistinguishable from the normal cars, at least on the daytime Paris-Nice runs. The real difference between iDTGV and regular TGV, beyond the different names, is that iDTGV has less staffing and more aggressive yield management, to allow lower ticket prices. The lower staffing is what prevents it from taking over the rest of the TGV system: the unions are fighting it. On a new system, lower staffing levels could be considered from the start, without labor opposition.
rafael Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 7:58 am
The yield management strategy for idTGV is based on offering all tickets at extremely low prices several weeks ahead of time. As seats fill up, the rating engine jacks up the fare. If you book a non-refundable ticket far enough in advance, you can get Lille-Marseille (1000km = 600mi) for EUR 19 one-way.
There’s a simple business rationale behind this. Now that national rail grids in Europe will be opened up to competitors throughout the EU, governments are letting their rail infrastructure operators (RFF in France) jack up the trackage fees. Operators like SNCF are scrambling to maximize seat capacity utilization for every slot on the timetable that they have to purchase. Even if a ticket only fetches a pittance, that’s still better than leaving a seat empty – or so the logic goes.
In theory, SNCF could drop prices once again in the final hours before departure, since seats on any given train are much like perishable goods. I’m not sure if their rating agency actually does this, though.
Andre Peretti Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Actually, iDTGV is a (sort of) private company founded by the SNCF in order to be more competitive when HSR is deregulated. The current statute of SNCF employees will make it very difficult for the company to compete with DB, SF or Veolia. idTGV being a new company, it has no costly legacy statute and can offer cheaper seats.
The unions saw iDTGV as an attack on their legacy statute and decided to kill it. The inaugural train couldn’t even leave the station as union members physically prevented the driver from getting into his cabin.
After lengthy negotiations, they eventually allowed one iDTGV a day, but stated it had no right to appear in the SNCF’s timetables. So, few people in France know these trains even exist, which is exactly what the unions wanted.
i say have one or two specialized services that you cannot offer via air or car. Although the train is already time competitive and more practical, additional specialty services might generate more trips that people wouldn’t normally take. I am thinking of something akin to a Vegas road trip…make the journey to the other city a PART of the destination, not just a journey.
One idea: a suave club/bar oriented train, with one train car dedicated to a bar with a small dance floor, geared to weekend travelers. There might only be 2-4 trains a day (twice a week…Friday and Saturday?) that can do this, with the idea that you can board HSR from LA or SF at 6pm-8pm, party while traveling to the other city, and make it in time for nightly shenanigans (10pm onwards). I think such a concept would be popular with the younger 20′s crowd…in the form of a spontaneous last minute trip to the other city (ideally you get to mingle and meet people aboard the train). And such a train would absolutely be a hit if it went to Vegas, once the DX gets built and connected to CA HSR.
I cannot think of anything else for the time being, but for basics you need: 1. car rental at the destination; 2. wi-fi; 3. electrical outlets; 4. TV of some kind in the seat backs; 5. Meals (free would be nice, but for purchase also works in the form of a cafe car); 6. a stocked bar.
I also think bikes should be allowed on the train…couldn’t hurt, and they don’t take up too much room. Perhaps you can charge a small fee.
Missiondweller Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 10:37 am
I like the Virgin America model. One base price but many options for additional money.
I think being able to reserve a “conference room” on the train would be a big plus, both differentiating HSR from the plane as well as providing additional revenue.
These ideas are the reason I’d ideally see HSR privately operated rather than publicly.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
But when nobody reserves it you are hauling around empty space that could be earning revenue if had conventional seats in it.
Could some trains have different types of cars—- say one business class car with premium fares on some trains, and on others, one family car designed for families with children (Maybe do it up in a Donald Duck or a Dora theme).
How many of the 20 million yearly visitors to Disney Parks in Anaheim are children? And how many of those visitors could be persuaded to use HSR? Children like trains, and what could be better than riding a futuristic bullet train to Disneyland in a specially designed family car.
jimsf Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 1:41 am
true we should not be limited to thinking inside the box. Rail cars are immensely flexible and we should offer whatever there is a demand for. Granted the loft lounge is a bit much but certainly, a nice lounge, private business and first “pods” certain trains with a sort of boardroom on rails that can be chartered, all of these ideas should not be ruled out. And definitely “at seat” meal service in first class is a must. Acela does it, Eurostar does it. CHSR should absolutely do it. In addition, you could have two or three peak hour trains – that are true express with business and first only ( no coach) with upgraded interiors and perks and business people will climb over each other to get a seat on those and not have to share the train with the commoners.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 8:22 am
DB tried the boardroom/conference room thing. It didn’t sell.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 8:23 am
How much higher does the fare on the themed cars have to be to pay for them sitting in a yard most of the day – people aren’t going to be traveling with the toddlers early in the morning or late in the afternoon – or most weekdays?
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Acela is business and first only. They are full. They run 20 business/first only trains per weekday between BOS and NYP and another 30 weekday business/first only trips WAS-NYP per weekday.
I’d propose that of the total ca hsr weekday sked, that all the “true express” sfc-lax trains be business and first only to maximize revenue. With coach and discount fares available for locals and limiteds.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
The first Acela of the day leaves before the crack of dawn and the last one leaves well after the close of business. They are fantasizing about a train decked out in Disney regalia that runs once a day four days of the week.
jimsf Reply:
July 20th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
Well, no I don’t think we need a Donald Duck train. I think the better and more obvious solution is one of marketing. hsr-disney packages etc. but no need to go beyond that.
My point had more to do with classes of service – running a handful of peak hour high demand trains at business /first pricing to maximize revenue. Adjusted for demand. No doubt there would be enough demand for a certain amount of peak premium service between la and sf.
“Everything old is new again. . .”
That double-level lounge car is reminiscent of some home-made domes the Southern Pacific had back in the 1950s; Chesapeake & Ohio’s proposed but never operated Chessie daylight streamliner (the equipment was built ca. 1947-1948, but a changing economic picture and other problems lead to the train never actually running other than a test run or two) had a family car with a Disney theme.
A friend of mine and I have been discussing the idea of HSR in transcontinental service. A 20-hour or so run across 3,000 miles would work out to an average speed of 150 mph or so, well within the range of this technology, and is also about the same running time as the original 20th Century Limited and the original Broadway Limited between New York and Chicago in 1902. Such a 20-hour or so running time (which actually shrinks to 17 hours westbound clock time because of crossing time zones, and of course grows to 23 hours on the return trip) brings up the implications of leaving a terminal in the afternoon, having a nice meal on the train, sleeping overnight, and arriving the next morning. With modern communications technology, you could work on the train, and time “wasted” by sleeping is actually used for traveling.
It won’t necessarily be cheap (and it was very common for such trains to be “extra fare”), but I wonder how much business such a service could generate, especially since such a line would be shared with other, regional HSR trains and making connections with at least some of them. It would also be useful in the very likely case that air travel becomes restricted due to fuel issues.
http://history.howstuffworks.com/american-history/post-war-railroads.htm/printable
One of three experimental steam-turbine-electric locomotives built for this service, and apparently intended as prototypes for a new fleet of passenger engines on the C&O:
http://www.skyrocket.de/locomotive/img/co_m1_500b.jpg
D. P. Lubic Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 3:59 am
Well, with no edit function, I have to reply to myself:
Dome car site:
http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/
The SP cars mentioned above:
http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/SPf/
http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picSPinterior.jpg
http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picSPinteriora.jpg
http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/dome.html
http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/dome1.html
http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/dome2.html
Alon Levy Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 5:27 am
This train could be successful in operations, for the reasons you state. However, its ridership would not justify the expense of building HSR all the way from New York to Los Angeles. While a decent national HSR initiative could build a line from New York to Chicago, and from Los Angeles to Las Vegas, the gap between Chicago and Las Vegas is too difficult to bridge. Even if the Rockies weren’t there, it would cost $50 billion. Given that they are there, add a few more tens of billions for a base tunnel from Denver to Grand Junction. Moreover, there’s little regional traffic to be gotten between Denver and Las Vegas, and even Chicago-Denver is probably too expensive for the amount of traffic. In no section is running on upgraded legacy track feasible, because of heavy freight traffic.
Alan Figgatt Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 7:06 am
A Denver to Kansas City to St. Louis to Chicago HSR train might be feasible, but from Denver to Kansas City, the most that would be likely is a diesel powered 90-110 mph line. Which would be a much improved service over what we have now. Another possible cross country HSR route would be further south from either Fort Worth or San Antonio to El Paso to Tuscon to Phoenix to LA. But the gap between Tucson to El Paso to San Antonio is pretty long and not likely to see an HSR line for a very long time. A southern HSR route would also be longer from NY.
Any ideas about a cross-country HSR train is getting WAY ahead of the game. First, we need to build some actual HSR corridors beyond the sort-of HSR Northeast Corridor and get them running. After 20-30 years of sustained funding for HSR with corridors being built, then people can dream about/propose a cross-country HSR service.
Agree with Robert’s initial assessment- perhaps a cafe car, some table seating for groups/families, and maybe at seat meal service for first class passengers (like Thalys). Otherwise, just make the seating comfortable- frills like the design in the Daily Mail take away space from revenue generating seats- after all, journeys will be 2~3 hours at the longest, this is not Amtrak long distance.
The most important factors are:
a) legroom
b) good headrests
c) space for luggage
d) cheap drinks and food
Let me elaborate: On the Shinkansen in standard class you get a seat pitch of more than a metre and comfortable seats overall and it’s almost more difficult to stay awake than to take a nap.
On the Spanish or German Velaro in comparison the styling beats the crap out of the Shinkansen’s cheap plastic chic but they cut 10cm of legroom and it’s just enough to start bothering you after a few hours. Add cheap headrests that have your head flopping around constantly and it really ruins the experience.
The TGV combines the cheap look of the Japanese with the lack of comfort of the Europeans but at least it’s cheap and fast.
c)’s self explanatory and d), well, it’s important to make people feel good about travelling on those trains. Selling crappy food at exorbitant prices needlessly pisses people off. Even worse, it’s not even a good business proposition because people will avoid having to buy stuff on the train. You have 1000 people (depending on train length and type of course) who are trapped on a train for 3 hours and most likely bored. Offer food and especially drinks at reasonable prices and they’re gonna sell like hot cakes.
About the article:
You need something to make first class worthwhile. Compartments for business meetings and privacy certainly are a good idea as is lavish use of faux luxury. That said, those couches and lounges and all that crap remind me of the gimmicks that are used on A380s or on 747s when they first came out. They’re a colossal waste of space and vanish after the first refit.
The styling of the exterior is beautiful, though. Wow.
rafael Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 8:04 am
I’d prefer reasonable portions of tasty, healthy but unpretentious food that’s affordable rather than dirt cheap. If you want to stuff your face with Twinkies, bring your own.
bleh Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 5:07 am
And I want a pony!
There’s a reason food on planes and trains is normally either terrible or a testament to the power of modern chemical science (most often both).
The solution is to split it up:
-Tasty, life-threatening cuisine ready to survive a nuclear war. Stuff like Twinkies.
-and a small selection of locally produced, fresh and tasty stuff. This has to be cheap because you need to sell all of it quickly and because the selection’s necessarily going to be small.
This is the way the Japanese are doing it and DB’s coming around, too.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Agree with these excellent points.
bleh Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 5:17 am
Thx. =)
Michael Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Comfortable seats
Outlets
Wifi
Two-class service (I buy business on the Cascades and would love it on the San Joaquins)
Cafe food service on par with the ICE in Germany
bleh Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 5:16 am
Wi-Fi’s a good point! Missed that one. Preferably free, because it can generate quite a bit of goodwill for a few pennies on the ticket. Especially if the train’s stuck for some reason.
Outlets are already standard on any HSR built in the last years as is two-class service.
Clem Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
By the time HSR enters service in California, on-board Wi-Fi will be a quaint memory like the rotary telephone is today. You will have 4G or 5G broadband mobile connectivity everywhere you go, and it will hardly matter whether you’re on a train–except maybe inside tunnels.
Caelestor Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 11:07 am
Will it be free, though?
I’m not willing to shell out $5 for 3 hours of internet.
Peter Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 11:17 am
I think he’s saying that the train itself will likely not have to be equipped with Wi-Fi. Whatever service plan you have for your home internet connection or your cell phone plan will probably include the broadband mobile connectivity that will work on the train.
Just keep the trains the way they are now. Both the ICE and TGV have first and second class cars which offer plenty of comfort. They also already include seating facing each other with tables (limited amount in first). Also, don’t forget about the cafe/bar cars that are in each train set. Once people ride these trains, they will definitely prefer traveling by high speed rail over flying and wonder why they ever has any doubts.
It would just give the doubters something to latch on to. I betcha the Brit trains don’t end up so deluxe either. Remember how glorious the A380 was to be in preliminary renderings? But it ended up just being a double decked 777 with some sleep cabins for the rich. HSR can and should have 2 classes of service but for a maximum trip length of 3.5 hrs or so, you don’t need TOO much. (I would spend my share of time in a bar car though.) Build a standard car for a standard 21st century HSR system and the thing will be crazy successful – making unnecessary fanciful carriages.
They could still make a nice car interior without going ‘Concorde’. I would rather see that they set aside the money to update the interiors and amenities every 3-4 years.
This design idealism will one day meet with reality and sort itself out much like the airline industry… notice the general lack of couches and piano lounges in commercial airplanes. Trains, like airplanes, are viewed by their operators as money-making machines. Anything that doesn’t help the bottom line will be deleted.
The only fundamental difference between HSR and airplanes is that you have a bit more room to play with due to less stringent physical constraints… the average cabin floor area per passenger for short-haul flights (Southwest, Jetblue, Alaska, etc.) is about 0.65 m2 per passenger. For HSR this figure is closer to 1.0 m2 per passenger, about the same as international long-haul flights that have large business and first-class cabins. So yes, the comfort will be much better than an airplane, but nowhere near as luxurious as depicted here.
Measuring the drapes a bit early?
D. P. Lubic Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Clem’s comments about space available for passengers on a train reminds me of a story from the dark days after the attacks in New York and Washington in September of 2001.
As you recall, the whole air system was shut down for a while, and many people had to find an alternative way to get home. For some people, this alternative was Amtrak’s Empire Builder out of Seattle.
Supposedly, some of the normal fly-about crowd got on the train in Seattle, and remarked to the conductor, “We bought coach tickets, not first class.” The conductor replied, “You are in the right car, this is coach.” The car in question was a standard Amtrak Superliner.
That says something about the sardine-can conditions on some modern aircraft.
Alon Levy Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 9:11 am
It’s not just the normal fly-about: even railfans take better service on trains for granted. Witness the complaints people are making here and on other blogs about the Shinkansen trains’ five-abreast seats. On airplanes, of course, the seats are six- or even ten-abreast, and the seat width is usually slightly less than on the Shinkansen, even on long-haul flights.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 11:55 am
I’ve never been to Japan, or even on an airliner (except a Lockheed Constellation–that beautiful 4-engined, triple-tailed creature from the 1940s that Howard Hughes had a hand in designing, possibly in cockpit layout)–and that was an exhibition plane on the ground, didn’t have the money to take a flight.
At the same time, though, it doesn’t sound like flight is so much fun today. I particularly find it interesting that the airliner’s seats are tighter than those of the Shinkansen sets–and the Shinkansen’s passengers are mostly those (relatively) little Japanese guys!
More brain cell tickling going on here–had a friend who was in the military and stationed in Japan in the late 1960s, and he decided to take advantage of certain trade laws in effect then and get himself some Japanese goods on which he would not be paying import duties. This included a custom-tailored suit.
He went to the tailor who had been highly recommended, got all measured, and placed his order. Later, he went back to pick up the suit.
The workmanship and materials were first-class, as he had been told to expect. The jacket and vest fit fine, but the pants–they were fine while he was standing up, but when he sat down, they were skin-tight!
He complaned about this to the tailor. The tailor replied in halting English along the lines of, “Oh, pants fine, problem is American, Yankee have big ham bone!”
The tailor, of course, had used the right measurements, but his cutting patterns were based on the typically much slimmer Japanese build. He was right from his perspective–at least this American had a bigger “ham bone” than the typical Japanese of the same measurements.
And we wonder why clothes and even shoe sizes in stores today are at best a rough guide as to whether something will fit. . .
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
And we wonder why clothes and even shoe sizes in stores today are at best a rough guide as to whether something will fit. . .
Because there used to be an obscure bureau in the Department of Standards that promulgated things like men’s shoe size 9 was a certain measurement. But the thudering herds of free marketeers took over the government and got rid of that. So you have things like XXL being what used to be a small. XXXL being what used to be a medium and 4XL being what used to be a large.
Spokker Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
“The conductor replied, “You are in the right car, this is coach.” The car in question was a standard Amtrak Superliner.”
Whenever I ride the Surfliner I go straight to the Superliner Car. Most Surfliner consists have one attached between the cab car and a California Car. More than once a fellow passenger asked me if the Superliner was first-class or coach.
The Superliner is great for riding at night as they are darker and you can actually see out the window. I hope they last for a while, but eventually they will go away in favor of new cars with super bright lights that I hate so much.
The interior reminds me of how the Coast Starlight could look like if Amtrak had proper funding. This could be the concept to run trains between huge distances.
E.g. Chicago-New York, Dallas-Chicago or the extreme distance between Sacramento-Chicago. Although these rail lines can be upgraded to 90+mph, they are not feasible for high-speed rail. But you can convince people with convenience. First-class traveling (just like this interior design), free-Wifi, Cafe and restaurant. It’s all there, we only need proper funding from the feds.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
July 16th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Emma,
A lot of what you think would be great in the future is part of what we foolishly threw away and have to rebuild.
Anyway, I think you’ll like this site–have fun:
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/
Some pages from within the site:
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/cars/tour.html
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/cars/domecoach.html
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/cars/diner.html
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/cars/diner2.html
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/cars/domeobs1.html
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/cars/domeobs2.html
Enjoy the trip!
Regarding food, I think that’s a fantastic way for rail distinguish itself from air travel.
Consider this: You leave SF. 15 minutes into the journey, a steward come by with a menu, which is VERY comprehensive: main courses, starters, a long list of wines in a wide range of budgets (in first class, this can be done by a waiter, while in economy this could be done electronically with seatback screens or even personal smartphones, which I imagine will be pretty common by 2020). Orders are submitted, and prepared in a fully-equipped, high-class restaurant kitchen in Fresno, or whichever stop is halfway between LA and SF. The food is prepared and put on trays in a cart, which is loaded on when the train stops for a minute and a half. Passengers are invited to the dining car ten minutes earlier. A waiter then serves the meals in the same way you would in a very nice restaurant. Passengers get an hour to enjoy.
I think this can be very practical– it’s not difficult to pull off; very rewarding– you could charge top rates for meals, and people would pay; and would be a great way to promote rail travel as head and shoulders above the amenities of even first class air travel. It would be a fantastic service for even the most demanding, high-paying executive, and you could still deliver a similar service to economy passengers (maybe you’d get the tray at your seat instead of being served by a waiter). At the same time, it would establish rail as a luxurious way to travel even as the price of a ticket undercuts airlines.
I really think that if the system is built to the current standard HSR will basically eliminate air travel within California.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
and you are hauling around an empty car betwween San Francisco and Fresno. all of it has to be food that can sit on the cart for a while because someone gets served last. Then everybody goes back to their seats in Palmdale while the dining car sits empty. How much is this meal gonna cost?
D. P. Lubic Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
The “olde-tyme railroaders” that occasionally get lampooned here did do some things very right, and food service in the old days was one of them. Most ran their own dining cars; a notable exception was the Santa Fe, which relied on a consessionaire by the name of Fred Harvey. I have a book of recipes for the notable dining car menus items of a number of railroads, and as an example, the Santa Fe’s French toast was outstanding; the secret is the use of cream or half-and-half instead of just milk. Comes out fluffy like a pastry!
The roads’ charges for meals in the old days were roughly equivelent to an upscale restaurant, yet they lost money like crazy on the service. Part of it was the heavy staffing on a dining car–steward, chef, two pantry men (one of whom washed dishes), and up to 12 waiters, all for an expensive rolling restaurant that could be the heaviest car in the train, and usually with only 36 seats! It was also a car you did not charge a ticket for; this, and lounge cars, were classed as “non-revenue” equipment.
Of course, the purpose of the car was not necessarily to be a profit center in itself; rather, it was an additional service that helped to sell tickets. Not entirely sure that concept would work today, with what I consider an excessive bottom-line emphasis in business these modern and “progressive” times.
Peter Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
@ D.P. Lubic
On a long-distance train, good food should be an absolute must. For a ride that is less than 3 hours, however, there’s no need to wine and dine the passengers with gourmet menus.
Michael Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
July’s menu from the DB. Service is from a walk up cafe window. Food is served on actual china and drinks in glassware. One or two of the beers are on draft. You can also get a cappuccino.
http://www.bahn.de/p/view/mdb/bahnintern/services/bordgaastronomie/juli10/MDB78668-speisekarte_juli10.pdf
Also note that the country of origin for the meat is listed.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
July 17th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
True, true. . .
Just for fun, thought you might like to take a look at what a high-speed trolley service offered back in the 1940s. Granted, you wouldn’t consider it high speed by your CAHSR standard, but this was an interurban running between Chicago and Milwaukee, had to negotiate curves on the Chicago “El” and street running in Milwaukee, but was tested up to 110 mph! How many light rail cars do you know of could do that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroliner
http://northshoreline.com/
http://northshoreline.com/liner.html
http://northshoreline.com/liner2.html
Electroliner menu; longest schedule time on the North Shore was about two hours. Out of curiousity, how does this compare with what you would consider proper food selection on the proposed California HSR service?
http://northshoreline.com/diner.html
Hope you have fun with this–and I hope it can provide lessons and background for where we need to go. It is said you can not know where you are going if you do not know where you have been.
Enjoy!
Andrew Reply:
July 18th, 2010 at 1:12 am
There should be an on-board cafe (taking up maybe half a car) and an optional at-seat preprepared cold meal for first-class passengers. Anything more than that is excess.
That said, I would love to see my earlier idea of a cafe that features exclusively California-grown/produced food implemented.
Thats gorgeous. Californians expect the same.