Why High Speed Rail Should Remain At High Speed
There is a tension in American life right now between those who want to do everything on the cheap – even if it means inferior or even failing services, even if it means long-term recession – and those who see value in making a long-term investment so that we do things right, whether that “thing” is economic recovery or high speed rail or education or something else.
Some people, when confronted with challenges and costs, prefer to shrink back and lower their horizons, to undermine the things that would make a project successful merely because they are unable or unwilling to countenance paying what is required to invest in our future, or because they are so conflict-averse that they would fatally weaken a good proposal merely to buy someone’s silence.
California political columnist Tom Elias clearly falls into that category. Although he is no expert on high speed rail, and appears to not be all that familiar with the project, he heard that there was some controversy about the cost and about the route, so his solution is to naturally just scale everything down, even though doing so would destroy the project’s effectiveness and financial viability.
Elias doesn’t mention any of the serious long-term problems and costs that HSR is designed to avoid, from rising oil prices to the need to build HSR as a centerpiece of new economic geographies. But he appears stuck in a late 20th century mentality, one that says “when you face a problem or a cost, simply do something less effectively and hope you can fight another day.” Our current recession is a product of that thinking, and below I’ll explain why it is totally inappropriate to apply it to HSR.
Here’s what Elias has to say:
Here’s a question for the California High-Speed Rail Authority: How about cutting out the most expensive parts of your current plan — which also happen to be the most controversial — while leaving its essence intact?
That’s a question no one on the board making the plans for this putative system has answered, or even been asked.
This is entirely untrue and betrays a lack of familiarity with the project. The CHSRA board has been asked several times to cut out parts of its plan, including the San Francisco to San José segment. They refused, for the following perfectly valid reasons:
1. HSR would be far less effective in meeting the state’s transportation needs if it did not go to SF.
2. HSR would have serious trouble meeting its ridership projections and making the operating profit it is required to produce if it were slowed or stopped short of key destinations and population centers.
3. California voters were sold a true bullet train system connecting downtown LA to downtown SF, and to change that now would violate the will of the voters.
Elias starts from a position of obvious ignorance, but plows ahead anyway:
As it now stands, the estimated cost of this project is $43 billion, but state voters have approved “only” $9.95 billion in bonds, while the federal government has committed another $2.25 billion. It’s anybody’s guess where the rest of the money might come from.
No it’s not. The rest of the money comes from the federal government and the private sector. If those funds do not materialize, then we don’t build. It’s not really that difficult to understand, unless you are employed as a State Auditor.
Plus, anyone who thinks building a 238 mph rail system stretching from San Diego through Los Angeles to Sacramento and San Francisco will come in at or under budget is probably hallucinating.
Elias is playing a dishonest trick on his readers here, arguing that “of course this can’t be done on-budget” even though construction costs are quite low these days, and even though many rail projects have indeed been brought in on-budget. He’s just making an assumption, treating it as proven fact, and treating anyone who disagrees as being deluded.
That, at least, is implied in a report by state Auditor Elaine M. Howle, who told the governor and the Legislature that “The High- Speed Rail Authority has not adequately planned for the future development of the program the program risks significant delays without more well-developed plans for obtaining funds.”
And as we know, Elaine Howle wrote a deeply flawed and error-prone report that also suggests she does not really understand this project. Unsurprisingly, we again see the damage that flawed report has done. Incredibly, the State Auditor’s office has so far failed to make amends for this inaccurate report.
This, of course, didn’t keep the authority from hiring a French/South African executive with experience running high-speed rail systems in Europe as its chief executive at $375,000 per year, plus a housing allowance.
Right, because when you’re building a $40 billion project, you want to hire someone on the cheap and lacking experience.
The auditor’s report, scathing as it was, did not even take up the question of local opposition to the current plan, currently strongest on the San Francisco Peninsula but rising in the Anaheim-Los Angeles corridor.
Why should it? “Local opposition” is overstated, as the loud NIMBYs are unrepresentative of their communities, having commandeered a flawed local process to dominate and distort the conversation. The State Auditor made a rare good move in refusing to take such small-time opposition seriously.
Why not do a little reassessing, especially in light of the High- Speed Rail Authority’s own report of last winter, which amounted to a bait and switch on the voters who approved the state bonds for this project by a 52-48 percent margin two years ago? That report raised the estimated year-2035 fare for the San Francisco-Los Angeles run from the $55 projected in ballot materials two years ago to $105. Nearly doubling the fare would cut the pool of likely riders by about one-third.
This was not a bait-and-switch. The $55 projected fare is still a projected fare. The $105 projected fare is merely another option. Further, Elias doesn’t compare those fares to the cost of driving or flying, which in ten years’ time will be much higher than it is right now. Elias also misleads his readers in not telling them that the projected fare of $105 is set at roughly 80% of comparable airfares.
And yet, those eliminated riders, plus taxpayers in parts of the state far from the high-speed trains, are still on the hook for repaying the bonds, if and when they are sold.
The Prop 1A is a general obligation bond, so the bond repayments are not contingent on ridership. But the HSR project will add $10 billion a year to the state’s economy (considering just the LA area alone), which would make it much easier to repay the bonds.
In fact, this is a common error made by those who remain locked in a late 20th century mindset – that any government spending or project merely takes away from the economy, instead of adding to it. As we know from the projects undertaken in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s, the opposite is true. California would be a much poorer place were it not for big government projects like Boulder Dam, Shasta Dam, the interstate freeways, the State Water Project, and the like.
Elias refuses to include the economic stimulus benefit from HSR, therefore distorting his assessment of the project’s costs and value.
Given this dicey picture for the future of California high-speed rail project, maybe it’s time to redesign the system’s planned map to eliminate its most expensive portions while keeping the fundamentals intact.
This is what we call a “false economy.” An effort intended to save money actually costs money. The “most expensive portions” of the project are those that create the greatest value and generate the most economic activity in the state – and that are the most essential to the HSR project’s financial and practical viability. Elias is either being hypocritical here, or simply doesn’t care that his concept is designed to weaken the project instead of improve it.
Here’s how to do that: Run high-speed trains on existing track in densely-populated areas even if that means running them at ordinary train speeds. Tie them in with existing transit systems. So Southern California trains, for example, might run full-out from Carlsbad north to about Tustin and then slow down as they use ordinary, existing track between Anaheim and Los Angeles. It might add a few minutes to the trip, but would cost billions less.
This is simply ignorant, betraying an almost total lack of understanding of rail operations on the corridor – and that’s even before we talk about the cost in lost ridership. First, the CHSRA is already talking about track-sharing, even though Elias apparently missed that rather key detail.
Second, you can’t run “full-out” between Carlsbad and Tustin given the state of the tracks there and the other trains on the corridor. Current service runs as fast as it can given the available track – which, in the San Clemente area, isn’t much, and there’s no room to widen it. Elias is condemning the LA-SD run to be nothing more than is currently offered by the Pacific Surfliner, which negates the purpose of HSR – to provide faster, reliable service that improves transportation in California.
It’s going to add more than “a few minutes” to the trip and will not save a dime. It will instead cost a lot more money, since the HSR project will generate neither the ridership nor the economic value to justify the expenditure.
Of course, if Elias is suggesting upgrades to tracks between Carlsbad and Tustin (which will come at an astronomical cost) so trains can go 220mph and then slower from LA-Anaheim…well, that is essentially already what is being proposed (except that to serve SD, the trains head east from LA and south to SD in Riverside/San Bernardino). Elias comes off as simply not knowing what he is talking about.
From Los Angeles, the trains could run at ordinary speeds into the San Fernando Valley and then go full-out through the Central Valley. Rather than running over the Pacheco Pass to Gilroy and San Jose roughly along Highways 152 and 101, the train could be rerouted over the Altamont Pass into the East Bay suburbs of San Francisco, where passengers could switch to special Bay Area Rapid Transit trains for a nonstop run into San Francisco on existing track. The Sacramento spur, to be added later under current plans, would remain pretty much as it now stands.
This is a nihilistic approach, destroying the train’s viability by causing it to hemorrhage riders. Abandoning San José, the state’s third-largest city and major economic hub, makes no sense. Forcing riders to transfer from an intercity train to a metro rail to complete their trip to SF is nonsensical – it could add as much as 30 minutes to the trip and, coupled with the lack of amenities, would cause ridership numbers to crash well below the levels needed to make HSR self-sufficient in terms of operating costs.
That eliminates the need for the most expensive rights of way.
No it doesn’t. The ROW is already owned by public rail agencies, especially on the Peninsula where very little ROW acquisition will be needed.
It satisfies Peninsula cities and environmentalists who have demanded a tunneled system that would add billions of dollars to the project cost.
Environmentalists support the current project; those who criticize the current project are doing the work of the oil and pollution industry, whether they acknowledge it or not. Peninsula cities cannot block this project, so we should not destroy the system to appease them.
It might add as much as 45 minutes to the entire ride, but would still leave passengers to enjoy hundreds of miles of travel at very high speeds.
He’s being conservative here; it’s likely to add at least an hour. His “save money and avoid controversy at all costs” approach ignores the fact that there are some concerns among Central Valley folks, from farmers to Bakersfield High School alums, about the routes chosen there as well. What happens when they make a fuss? Will Elias say “gee, maybe we just shouldn’t have high speed rail at all, and remain wastefully and expensively dependent on oil just because it’s too hard to build HSR?”
It would take high-speed rail trains away from areas that are now resisting it most strongly and leave the plan intact in areas that are welcoming it. And it would cost billions of dollars less, probably coming in at close to the state’s existing means.
The HSR trains need to go to these areas – which aren’t “strongly resisting it” – remember that the critics and opponents do not represent, and have generally succeeded in shouting down, the much more numerous HSR supporters in their communities.
It would not save billions of dollars, it would cost billions of dollars in dependence on oil, traffic congestion, lost jobs, wages, and tax revenues. And the state’s existing means are considerable – California is a very wealthy state that could quite easily pay for the entire HSR project ourselves, were we not politically committed to letting the rich and the large corporations escape their tax burdens.
There is precedent for all this, too. Amtrak currently runs successful trains that link to buses between Union Station in Los Angeles and Bakersfield and from Emeryville on the eastern side of San Francisco Bay into the city itself.
Those bus services aren’t successful in the sense that they fail to meet the state’s transportation needs. They are absolutely NOT a model to be emulated – the HSR project is intended to move above and beyond those stopgap measures that throttle ridership. Elias basically seems to be saying we shouldn’t improve on current passenger rail services at all – probably because he does not understand or chooses to ignore the reasons why that service must be dramatically improved.
Do this and if the mass of Californians still want more when the project is up and running, more could be added. But build a sensible, economical system first.
We’ve already done that. California created the current intercity passenger rail network in the late 20th century and voters already demanded more in November 2008. They want a sensible and economical system and know that the current plan provides it. Elias’s proposal is not sensible at all, given how it would destroy the project’s effectiveness and cause ridership to crash – and as a result it is not at all economical.
Too many people came out of the 20th century with a belief that being cheap is being economical. It’s not. Sometimes the economical and fiscally responsible thing to do is to spend a LOT of money, especially when the alternative is to spend even more money on a failing transportation system in a long-term recession caused by a silly unwillingness to spend.
Elias’s proposals for HSR are absurd. But they need to be pushed back against, in case California political leaders, many of whom are still in the grip of the same failed late 20th century thinking, start to agree with Elias’s flawed ideas.

There are different ways to save money without decreasing the quality of service: track-sharing between LA and Anaheim and Rafael’s “Caltrain Firebird” proposal (as long as projected travel times can still be accomplished) Once the service has been up and running for a few years and turns a profit, then you could fully 4-track the Caltrain corridor. As I said before, to the public eye, it looks better if we have a system in need of additional capacity rather than a system that’s under-utilized. Instead of naysayers screaming “see, it it is a boondoggle!!!” we’ll be screaming “see, we obviously need MORE HSR!!!”
Clearly, forcing passengers to transfer to BART in the East Bay is a great way to kill ridership and taint HSRs potential.
Peter Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Rafael’s Firebird decreases the quality of service. It drops a number of stations that real people actually use. It is important to maintain local service unless you offer a worthy alternative.
HSRforCali Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
I’m talking about HSR service, not Caltrain. Besides, as I said, once a 4-track system is built, all stations can be served. Until then, we’ll have to make the best of what we can.
Clem Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:45 am
This of course assumes that “Caltrain Firebird” is an operable plan… which it isn’t. Forget about it. We can also forget about gutting Caltrain. That would make HSR lose the few advocates it has on the peninsula.
Rafael Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:52 am
Actually, Firebird would serve those stations that collectively represent 95% of Caltrain ridership. There are legitimate concerns regarding how robust the concept could be made in day-to-day operations, but it should be possible to run substantially more limited stop trains during rush hour at line haul times currently only possible with baby bullets. Ergo, both primary and secondary stations would get faster, more frequent service based on new, modern ADA-compliant rolling stock and platforms. Tertiary stations would indeed see sharply reduced service, perhaps none at all, during peak periods.
For reference, my first cut at how Firebird might work called for regular service at 18 stations in a 50 mile corridor. Those would spaced close together in the Millbrae-Sunnyvale stretch.
Last not least, let’s not forget that the whole point of Firebird was to provide 90% of the functionality HSR needs as perhaps 60% of the cost while giving Caltrain a lot of flexibility in designing a mix of express/limited/local stop patterns. The official plan is to dedicate the new tracks to HSR, even the signaling on adjacent tracks may be incompatible (smacks forehead). That would reduce Caltrain to a standard gauge version of BART.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
60% of the cost is optimistic and doesn’t account for the cost of upgrading to full four tracks 20 years from now. Upgrading any of it around a railroad that it twice or three times as busy as the current on isn’t going to be cheap or easy if possible at all.
The schedules aren’t going to be all flexible. There would be two track constraints scattered all around. Schedules defined by concrete instead of the skill of the schedulers.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Once the service has been up and running for a few years and turns a profit, then you could fully 4-track the Caltrain corridor.
Sounds like a plan. Spend billions building a system that’s marginally adequate in the short term then rip it all out and spend lots more money building something that would have been marginally more expensive if you had built it in the first place. I’m sure all the people who remember all the disruption in the first round of construction will be just drooling at the thought of another few years of disruption while Of the disruption will last longer and be more disruptive because instead of building it around a moderately active diesel line you’ll be rebuilding around a busy electrified line. Sounds like a great plan for 2215 or so.
HSRforCali Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
No, what I meant is build the tracks as planned by the Authority; only build the two center tracks. The sidings for stations should be built to be compatible with the additional tracks built in the future. In this way, you wouldn’t have to rip out anything.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
So the only expense you would be saving is laying track?
HSRforCali Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
That and acquiring the necessary ROW for a 4-track system. Obviously, that would help with a lot of the opposition against eminent domain and a 4-track alignment.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
I’m confused. Are you advocating building everything for a 4 track system except laying the actual track or or are you advocating building a two track system, creating ill will over the construction and then coming back in a few years, ripping everything up, constructing around a now much busier railroad and people who remember the original construction all there by spending lots more money than if you just built a 4 track system all at once? You are going to have to wait until the NIMBY’s great grandchildren are dead to do the second, that or ban automobiles or both
HSRforCali Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 12:41 am
Just read Rafael’s Firebird plan…
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:36 am
I have, it looks great on paper. Unfortunately trains don’t run on paper they run on rails. They get filled up with passengers who haven’t read the plan. Weather happens. Stuff falls on the trackss..
Murphy was an optimist.
Rafael Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Twenty miles of additional tracks vs. 50 is nothing to sneeze at in terms of cost savings. You’d avoid tunneling in SF. The SJ Diridon station would remain at grade, all trains would be multiplexed through the Gardner district on existing tracks. There would be just the present two tracks through Atherton. No need for elevated new tracks at UPRR’s South SF yard. CBOSS canceled in favor of Caltrain piggypacking onto CHSRA’s already-proven solution.
Etc. All that small fry does add up, leaving more financial room for getting the DTX tunnel right in spite of TJPA stance that building now is more important than building smart. The TBT needs to be run-through stations with six dead straight full-length platforms. That implies a single track loop tunnel with the outbound leg under 3rd not 2nd Street.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 11:29 am
The San Francisco of your world must be quite differently built-out from the one here on Planet Earth.
Joey Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Richard -
3rd street is doable. It would involve a lot more property impacts, and probably abandoning the current commitment to not tunnel under existing buildings, but it could be done. Though I guess it’s not really necessary.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Joey, take it from me. It is not doable in any way, shape or form. Just look at Google Streetview!
You can’t go under the W hotel (corner of Third and Howard) and you can’t go under the AT&T building (middle of the block on New Montgomery) and even if you could that’s just the start of the problems.
Moreover, getting underneath Third is vastly more expensive and risky (deep tunnelling), and less useful (loss of Mission Bay through station). Hint: Second Street is at a higher elevation than THird.
It was never feasible, even 10 years ago when many other desirable alignments were doable.
I expect nonsense from Rafael, but others should at least do themselves the favour of some basic fieldwork.
Peter Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Quick question Richard. How helpful would it be to widen the turn from Townsend to 2nd St? Would that save more than 10 or so seconds?
Joey Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Richard, firstly I HAVE looked at it (in Google Earth, whose 3D buildings I find to be superior to street view in judging the layout of things).
Secondly, you’re right – Rafael’s proposal could not work. I apologize, I was thinking about 3rd street in the context of a terminal station, rather than the through tracks. Doing this would actually allow very wide curves (>250m radius) everywhere. I even made a map (it sucks because of Google’s sucky geometry tools, but it conveys the general layout of things). You are also correct that those two tall buildings are not the only difficulties with this route. There are a large number of medium height buildings that would either have to be tunneled under or demolished.
Thirdly, correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding was that 3rd street would be easier because it is lower. The Transbay Terminal is at an elevation of about 20 feet, and 4th and Townsend is at about 10. At Harrison Street, 3rd St. is at 23 feet while 2nd is at 60. Rincon hill would have to be tunneled under, where as the main part of 3rd street could be done using cut-and-cover.
Fourthly, the third street alignment in no way precludes a through station at Mission Bay.
I’ve had to deal with a lot of ignorance among local provincial hacks who get basic details wrong, but this takes the cake. What kind of person writes an op-ed about rail operations in California and misses BART’s incompatible track gauge?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
In fairness, he is calling for passengers to switch to BART trains, likely either at Livermore or Fremont. But he’s still wrong on the basic details, proposing this:
As anyone familiar with BART knows, express trains are quite impossible on existing track.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
There are only 4tph (which is 2tph too many) on BART Dublin-Bayfair and 8tph (3tph too many) Bayfair-Lake Merritt. Slotting in a non-stopper isn’t impossible, just challenging. It could even be done in conjunction with a capital project that would improve regional BART service, eg an infill station between Fruitvale and Lake Merritt, with overtake tracks added. And in general the BART A-line (Oakland-Fremont) is by far the easiest part of the system to which to add any sort of amplification track if needed elsewhere, being above or at grade and in industrial areas and transportation corridors.
However from Lake Merritt to Daly City things become a bit trickier. Note that stopping in Lake Merritt and West Oakland is actively desirable for intra-BART transfer opportunities, and stopping at West Oakland is physically necessary anyway because of intense, lock-step BART traffic. So the only problem is traffic saturation in the transbay tube at peaks.
The good news is that HSR peak departing the Bay Area is against the peak BART commute flow and vice-versa, so a subset BART trains that effectively dead-head (run way below capacity) to the East Bay in the AM and to SF in the PM could be reallocated as SF-Livermore HSR feeders.
It could work.
So sorry to inform you (I know, facts are stupid things) that none of this says this is an insanely bad idea. I think there are pretty damned good arguments to be made for HSR terminating at a Livermore BART station as incremental Phase 1 for Northern California. (Phase 2 would be Livermore-Fremont; Phase 3 Fremont-San Jose — not for any logical or ridership purpose, but for purely political reasons; Phase 4 Fremont-Redwood City-San Francisco.) Doing so defers the nose-bleed expensive (sub)urban construction and worst of the expensive Central Valley-Bay Area tunnelling, while providing an Initial Operating Segment that isn’t a joke and that actively leverages a scandalously under-used existing piece of infrastructure (the shouldn’t-have-been-built BART line Bayfair-Dublin.)
I’d certainly be looking long and hard and objectively at that if I were in charge of anything.
Joey Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:49 pm
Hasn’t deferring direct connections to urban cores gotten other HSR lines in trouble in the past?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
So the only problem is traffic saturation in the transbay tube at peaks.
ah yes, add more passengers to an overcrowded system. I’m assuming the passengertrains arriving from the south and meeting BART trains in the nether regions of far suburbs will be, ya know, carrying passengers
The good news is that HSR peak departing the Bay Area is against the peak BART commute flow and vice-versa
There’s going to be a peak arriving in the Bay Area too. Just like San Franciscans need to be in LA for morning meetings Anglenos are going to have to be in San Francisco for morning meetings. After all there’s a bit of business activity going on in downtown San Francisco that makes building a transportation complex for billions seem like a good idea. Those Anglenos like to eat dinner with their familes just like San Franciscans do and will be getting on BART trains in the late afternoon.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Dear adirondacker12800,
Think about it some more.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
I have. Along with people departing San Francisco there will be people arriving in San Francisco.
Rafael Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Yeah, but the first trains out of SoCal won’t arrive until 8:30-9:00 am. So for most of the morning rush hour, HSR traffic would be outbound from the peninsula. Note to self: if the signaling is compatible, that implies Caltrain could use three tracks during morning rush hour because HSR will only have southbound trains, IFF there’s an HSR stabling yard near SF.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Until people whine and moan that they can’t get to San Francisco for their 8:30 meetings or to SFO for their 8:15 flight and a train or two or three begin to arrive at 6.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Late night trains are a nightmare for maintenance. The only thing that’s worse is running freight at night.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Richard, I’m trying to think of the transfer idea by comparison with the Tohoku Shinkansen’s terminating at Omiya for the first three years. The main problem is that then there was a reasonable expectation that the line would be completed to Ueno, whereas here if an LA-Livermore Phase 1 flops, none of the remaining phases will ever open, no matter how cost-effective.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
Alon: Madrid-Zaragoza-…-Barcelona Sants-…-Barcelona La Sagrera
And if there isn’t a non-flopping Phase 1 possible, then there was no justification for any project at all.
It’s unclear to me how wasting — simply throwing away and burning — billions on SF-SJ and on LA-Anaheim porkfests (maybe with an inutile “test track” somewhere for bad measure) as “phase 1″ is supposed to engender support for the grand and glorious future. “The first rule of holes is to stop digging” may (or may not) be a a slogan that ends up having greater appeal to the suckered taxpayers than “trust us, next time for sure”.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 5:03 am
LA-SF is a non-flopping Phase 1. LA-Livermore may not be. Do you really trust BART to time the trains to the arriving HSR?
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 6:08 am
Do you trust PB to design and build the highest cost and highest risk parts of the entire system within 50% of “budget”?
There’s going to have to be phasing of some kind. Look at even the official budget (ie “budget”) numbers.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
The highest-risk part isn’t the Peninsula, but the mountain crossings. Livermore doesn’t fix that. The cost reduction isn’t that big compared to the ridership loss.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 6:53 am
Interestingly enough the three segments which are being prioritized are the three without mountain crossings. Not sure if it means anything.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:17 am
No, you and Richard are right here – I misread. I thought he was calling for running through to SF, not for a transfer.
HSRforCali wrote: “Once the service has been up and running for a few years and turns a profit.” I see this as a huge leap of faith. If this were to be true, then the regional operators such as Caltrain, ACE and Metrolink should be able to reprice all of their segments to at least break even.
And Caltrain is the agency with the biggest fiscal dilemma. Can Caltrain reprice to preserve service based on a shrinking subsidy from from its three partners? And, if it doesn’t what will the future reduced service look like?
Looking at the operating model of Caltrain, how can you have that agency is not covering its operating costs and then assuming a parallel High Speed Rail service, run by an unknown operator is going to be able to meet the state mandated requirement that it not be subsidized?
At ACE, you have an agency that does meet a break even budget, but at a fairly high per passenger subsidy. And ACE had to reduce service to break even. But the ridership at a range of ~ $8 to $11 / ride doesn’t show me promise. Sure with 150 mph service ridership could increase but with a huge infrastructure improvement.
Metrolink has some promise on the Antelope Valley Line, as the new CEO sees financial opportunity. Metrolink is about to embark on a radically increased fare structure on this 72 mile corridor. On July 1, weekend rides go from $8.75 to $12.75 from Palmdale to Los Angeles. Student rides increase by $3 / trip. Weekends on the Antelope Valley Line have shown strong grown despite the recession. What happens to the AV Line ridership volume is going to indicate a lot for the future of High Speed.
Right now, the new CEO is starting to take a look at various elements of express service on the Line. Should some express schedules emulate the High Speed stops, we will be able to see some of the ridership potential. What is unknown is where the farebox recovery will go.
The future possibilities of High Speed finances will be revealed by the steps taken at Metrolink. Since these experiments are way at the beginning, I am not sure of the potential, but if Metrolink is successful in increasing ridership, be aware that the farebox recovery is about 50% and High Speed requires twice the revenue over the same corridors to meet any state mandates.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
You are quite simply wrong – totally and completely – to equate commuter rail with high speed rail. HSR is a proven global success at turning a profit – in fact, the Taiwan HSR system turned an operating profit in 2009.
Overall I do not believe passenger rail should be asked to show a profit. It should be subsidized as part of a state/national investment in economic growth. But even under the Prop 1A rules, there should be little problem with HSR turning a profit here in CA just as it does around thw world.
Not all passenger trains are alike.
HSRforCali Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
To SS Sam Taylor they are…
Andre Peretti Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
The argument “since conventional trains lose money HSR can’t be profitable” is typically American. Many people fail to understand that a high-speed train is not just another train, it’s a different animal.
If the SNCF had followed that flawed logic, the Paris-Lyon TGV would never have been built. It was built because conventional trains were losing money. And everybody knows the line has proved highly (and, in my opinion, immorally) profitable.
Spokker Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Aside from train nerds like us who are mental, very few people actually want to commute to work via rail. Whatever gains are made on the actual trip are lost when getting to the station, transferring to another mode of transit, and other annoyances. It’s relatively slow, tangled by freight trains and is limited in speed due to tight curves and old infrastructure.
What they WANT, if it existed, is to drive their own vehicle alone to work with zero delay. Since highways cannot offer that when everybody is trying to go to work within the same couple of hours, commuter rail has an opportunity to become attractive, if and only if, someone else pays for half of the cost of a ticket. Governments are essentially paying people to get off the freeway to free up space for others who would never be willing to ride transit no matter how much it is subsidized. Commuter rail is simply not an attractive service by itself.
High speed rail, on the other hand, requires no such incentive. It’s a mode of transportation many people WANT to use, if it’s available. People complain about the prices on the Acela Express, the closest thing to HSR in this country. Prices are so high because it’s such an attractive mode of transportation. To lower prices is to burden the service with an excess of riders. Those that cannot afford the Acela take the intercity bus.
Now what would happen to commuter rail if it was allowed to use the high speed rail infrastructure, at least partially? For example, some Metrolink trains would certainly continue to serve Acton and Via Princessa after high speed rail is built. But what if some Metrolink trains could use those very expensive tunnels the CHSRA is planning to dig between Sylmar and Palmdale?
The tunnels and track are already being built for HSR and there WILL be excess capacity. What additional cost will be incurred if Metrolink is allowed to offer its usual subsidized rail service over those tracks? It’s not like Metrolink will be cutting into the HSR’s big SF-LA profits. People who wish to go only to Palmdale and Lancaster won’t be taking up seats on the high speed trains.
Is there anything standing in the way of this kind of setup?
Dan S. Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
SS, you’re right, Caltrain is in a tight financial spot. The solution that I’d like to see is *increased* operating budgets as provided by the three participating counties. They should up their antes instead of folding and walking away. Every dime spent on commuter rail means a dollar they don’t have to spend on highways, especially on such a rich target as the Peninsula employment corridor.
And Robert is right on the counter to the comparison between commuter rail and HSR, too. The current ridership of commuter rail (make that *any* rail) in the United States is absolutely no indicator of future true HSR service. The HSR customer experience is most akin to flights, which remain amazingly popular as an alternative to car trips despite ridiculous security procedures and humorously constrictive seating arrangements.
The problem with trips between Lancaster/Palmdale and Los Angeles is the long, winding stretch along Soledad Canyon Rd. Lancaster – LAUS is a solid two hour trip. Then again, the same trip by car can take up to 2 hours during the worst of rush hour.
The CHSRA promises a trip time of about 30 minutes between Palmdale and Los Angeles. The ticket will carry a premium to be sure, leaving out poorer riders unless we choose to subsidize monthly passes (I think HSR commute zones could be beneficial, but it would require more study).
But all those tunnels may be worth it if Metrolink expresses could also use them during rush hour. You’d probably be skipping Acton and Via Princessa and Santa Clarita stations if I remember the route correctly, but Palmdale and Lancaster riders would benefit greatly.
Spokker Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Interestingly enough, the CHSRA also projected a $10 one-way fare between Palmdale and LAUS. Metrolink fares will be $12.25 for the same but slower trip starting July 1st.
Risenmessiah Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
It’s an interesting dilemma, but it’s probably an academic exercise.
There shouldn’t be competiton for passengers for HSR and Metrolink. Reason being, unlike CalTrain…your passengers are going to be going against commute patterns. For example, the morning southbound train from SF will probably not arrive in Palmdale until after 9am…and not be a valuable resource to commuters. It’s the same issue in reverse. The HSR is going to have to leave before 5pm for return travellers.
By contrast, on the Cal Train portion, there may be some synergy between commuters and long distance passengers but it could have a neutral effect if you limit the stations it serves.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 26th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
Some people are actually able to get out of bed before dawn when they need to be someplace hours away at the start of business. And many people are able to stay awake past 9.
Risenmessiah Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 1:25 am
You know, I hear you but you aren’t approaching this the right way. The quickiest HSR will connect Los Angeles to SF is 2 and half hours. You know what else mirrors that type of time window….flights between Seattle and Los Angeles. So I pulled out a timetable and discovered that nearly every flight between Seattle and LA (which I use for comparison because its the same travel time and same time zone) leaves after 6am and returns by 10pm.
Amazingly, I predict that in the early days HSR will leave SF for LA around 7am and arrive in LA a little before 10am. (It would be the same going the opposite direction.) Then during the middle of the day you would see the ‘locals’ that stop everywhere along the route but still arrive by dinner time. And then around 4pm and maybe 6pm you would see another wave of trains.
But here is the clincher….nearly all of Metrolink trains from Palmdale to LA leave the Antelope Valley by 7am…hours before HSR is likely to get there. Then on the return…nearly all your commuter traffic for Metrolink on that line is after 5pm. It’s true that HSR might have a late evening train that arrives after nine pm….but that still limits your depature to around 7pm and after most of the Metrolink trains……
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:46 am
Or the Northeast Corridor between DC and NY. Less than three hours. First train of the morning leaves at 3:15. Last train of the night leaves at 10. Boston – NY isn’t quite as active but there’s a train that gets you to Boston or New York very very early in the day. One that leaves very very late too depending on how you want to look at it.
Risenmessiah Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Your analogy doesn’t quite hold. I assume its because you live on the East Coast and wouldn’t quite get the nuance between the West and the East.
NY-DC is only 225 miles. However, it’s a longer flight that SF-LA because of congestion and security issues. LA to SF is around 400 miles. NY and DC are set up so that being dropped off downtown is a premium benefit compared to navigating the taxi rank and driving into the city. In CA, that’s not the case…this is why there are all the calls to have the HSR end at the edge of urban areas (which I don’t agree with).
NY – DC is unique in other ways. You have such an onslaught of politicians and lobbyists flowing between the cities its unreal. SF and LA won’t have that kind of traffic. It’s largely going to be tech companies and banks flitting between the major urban areas with a mixture of college students, retirees, and vacationers.
The key is to build the system so that gradually, when fossil fuel transport isn’t feasible anymore that we can add spare capacity until most people take HSR.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:16 am
Not all trains have to start at the terminals. In fact for good high-speed commuter service, you’d want to make sure to park some trains at intermediate stations overnight, to allow trains to leave well before the intercity locals get there. The first Tokaido Shinkansen Kodama trains starting from Mishima, Shizuoka, or Hamamatsu get to Tokyo before the Hikari and Nozomi expresses from Shin-Osaka: see timetable here.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:39 am
…well up until a few years ago there was service between Philadelphia and New York that started early…
Alon Levy Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:41 am
…and then Amtrak canceled it because it profusely bled money and compromised the brand, on account of its obscene staffing levels. Rest assured, the Mishima-Tokyo Kodamas aren’t the subsidy hog that the Clocker was.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Amtrak canceled it because New Jersey was unwilling to subsidize the commute of Pennsylvanians to Manhattan.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
If the Clocker had the financial performance of the Kodama, Jersey wouldn’t need to subsidize anything. On the contrary, it would actually benefit from having faster trains for people boarding at Trenton and Princeton Junction, which would free up slots for commuter trains for the rest of the state.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
There’s 23 slots into Penn Station, it doesn’t matter if the logo on the side of the train is Amtrak or NJTransit.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 5:01 am
If the logo is Amtrak, the train can provide service beyond Trenton and Penn Station.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:09 am
If the logo on the side of the train is NJTransit they fairly regularly provide service between New Haven and Washington DC. What’s your point?
Alon Levy Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
My point is that they usually don’t, at least not reliably. Instead of leveraging this for extra slots, Amtrak is planning a new tunnel under the Hudson in addition to both the existing tunnels and ARC.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
They don’t need to run often because there isn’t a whole lot of demand to go from Rye to Rahway… and never will be unless some compelling destination arrives in Rye or Rahway.
They’ve made vague statements that a new tunnel may be needed sometime in the future. The four tunnels are projected to be at capacity sometime between 2030 and 2045. There’s at least tow ways to look at that. Job growth in Manhattan will continue far into the future which means the tunnels will eventually get to capacity. Or that there is a limit to how many jobs and other destinations can be squeezed into Manhattan and there never will be a need for more tunnels.
Much better to begin talking about it now than to wait until the tunnels are running at 80 % of capacity at peak and then scramble to figure something out. My choice would be to connect the old PRR ROW in Jersey City with the LIRR ROW in Brooklyn with a station at Fulton Transit Centerr. Kills a few birds with one stone, electrify it with catenary and not only does it kill those birds it makes Amtrak service to/from Jamaica relatively cheap. … shift traffic from Midtown to Downtown freeing up capacity in Midtown…
Alon Levy Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 4:44 am
Amtrak hasn’t “made vague statements.” It put the tunnels in its Northeast capacity master plan, which consists of the capital improvements it would like to make if Congress rolls over and funds them. It did not put any other capacity improvement – not a Jersey-Brooklyn tunnel (which is prohibitively expensive if Fulton is to be a terminal), or moving block signaling between the Kearny Connection and the junction at Sunnyside, which could allow 30-32 tph per track pair.
The issue has nothing to do with Rahway-Rye demand – which, for the record, is probably in the same ballpark as Norwood-Coney Island or Vincennes-Saint Germain en Laye demand. It’s about combining commuter and intercity operation when possible, so that the NEC isn’t stuck with just 3 tph at the peak.
Dennis Lytton Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:05 am
I think that there would certainly be some demand for people in the Antelope Valley to use this as an express commute train, especially since HSR will be inducing some passenger rail growth out there.
A few subsidized Anaheim to Palmdale roundtrips would be appropriate. Such a subsidized train would be incrementally cheaper to add than a conventional Metrolink train. It may not even need subsidy.
Risenmessiah Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:22 am
I don’t think that is concern, Dennis.
I think the criticism has been that commutte passengers would fill the train up and leave a lot of empty seats that could be taken up by high paying long distance passengers.
Dennis Lytton Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Yeah, I get that. Between SJ and SF HSR and Caltrain are on the same ROW, thus Caltrain express service can skip stops, just needs to be coordinated with HSR.
Antelope Valley to LA is more interesting since the HSR ROW will be quite distinct from the current conventional passenger ROW.
Rafael Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
My take on this is that CHSRA is going to have a hard time finding sufficient land for large stabling yards near the SF and Anaheim termini. Therefore, they’re going to need a squirreling strategy, i.e. operations based on multiple smaller stabling yards dotted here and there.
Let’s assume there will be stabling spaces for eight trainsets in Anaheim, another eight at LAUS and another two dozen in Palmdale (incl. some spare capacity + light maintenance). Let’s also assume that in the fully built out scenario the HSR operator will need capacity to run up to 10 trains per hour up to either SF or Sac between 6am and 9am. It may be many years before that capacity is ever fully utilized, but we’re planning for the long term here.
The ones parked overnight in Anaheim and LAUS would make their first runs of the day out to SF or Sac. The ones parked in Palmdale would head south to Anaheim first, turn around and then up to NorCal. By the time that supply is exhausted, the first trains of the day hailing from SF would already have arrived in Anaheim and been turned around. In the evening, a number of trains would run from Anaheim to Palmdale only.
Essentially the same strategy could apply at the northern end, with auxiliary yards in Gilroy, Merced and/or Fresno.
A direct consequence of squirreling is that you would have plenty of early morning revenue service out of Palmdale and Gilroy/Merced/Fresno into LA/Anaheim and SJ/SF, respectively. Likewise, evening revenue service in the reverse direction. Those are exactly the time windows that are most useful to commuters, so they will ride these stabling HSR trains rather than Metrolink or Caltrain.
The upshot is that the location of the stabling yards and the associated operating strategy will determine whether or not HSR induces population growth in Palmdale and Gilroy/Merced. If that is desired or unavoidable, the beneficiary cities should at least be strongly encouraged to concentrate that population growth in transit-oriented developments near their respective HSR stations. CHSRA should offer only limited for-fee parking to encourage this type of development.
So what about Lancaster? AB3034 imposes a 24 station limit on the network, so there’s currently no scope for using prop 1A funds for an additional HSR station in the Antelope Valley. One option would be to cancel Metrolink service between Palmdale and Santa Clarita. Instead, there would be a new High Desert line between Lancaster and Palmdale only, plus a truncated line between Santa Clarita and LAUS (possibly further, once there are run-through tracks for standard-speed services at that station).
The High Desert line could be extended to Barstow and/or Victorville/Hesperia if there’s demand and the freight operators are willing to offer trackage rights.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
There area already plans for a reasonably large facility (17 yard tracks + shops) in Anaheim (see page 13).
Rafael Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 6:24 am
Alright, I didn’t realize they had already decided to take industrial properties for a yard. Operationally, that is preferable to a yard in Palmdale. Note, however, that SF-Anaheim will take around 3h10m with a stop in LA. Realistically, not every early morning train out of SF will be an express and, arriving trains may not be available for immediate turnaround. For planning purposes, the safe assumption would be that the first trains out of SF won’t be available for Anaheim-SF until at least 3h30m after the start of operations for that day.
Let’s say that for capacity purposes, you plan for 6 trains departing before 07:00 and 8 tph after that until 10:00. That’s a total of 30 trains, plus a couple of spares plus a couple in maintenance. Now assume that some of those trains will be full-length. The upshot is a need for overnight stabling capacity for 34-50 trainsets @ 200m each. The Anaheim maintenance facility + ARTIC station tracks might well be large for that, especially since there will be some number of stabling spaces at LAUS as well.
Risenmessiah Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
There’s plenty of spare capacity in Taylor Yard, if I recall correctly. Also, if there’s some resolution on Alameda Corridor East Hobart Yard could be converted for high speed rail as well.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Taylor Yard is more or less guaranteed to become a state park at this point…
The CHSRA had undermined the argument for very high speed with its circuitous route and podunk stops. You should have known this was coming once you threw out the racetrack alignment.
Tolmach’s right.
morris brown Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 5:42 am
Yes, Yes, Tolmach’s is indeed right about the routing.
He is also right when he calls this project a “scam”
I call it a boondoggle.
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
And if the Dumbarton alignment went through your neck of Menlo Park you’d disagree with him…
Dennis Lytton Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:08 am
Calling the communities of some Californians “podunk” borders on ethnocentric offensive speech. The route is great. It’s about serving California’s major population centers and giving them a chance at sustainable development for the 21st century.
Clem Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:59 am
They are certainly “investing” our taxpayer dollars to build features of the system that add only marginal transportation value. One pathology that is becoming more and more apparent is that when it comes to engineering this thing, speed ( the ‘S’ in HSR) is taking a back seat to massive city-wide grade separations on 60-foot viaducts, “iconic” architecture, pharaoic terminals, excessive tunneling (SF), etc. Maybe they think they’ll make it up with top speed?
The key metric here should be seconds saved per dollar invested.
Rafael Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:19 am
Right, because Fresno and Bakersfield are “podunk” towns. That’s a mighty high horse you’re riding on.
An for the last time, current and near term steel wheels HSR technology does not permit crossing the complex fault system near Tejon Pass at grade. With the southern San Andreas quite likely to deliver a big one in the next 30-50 years, crossing that fault deep below grade would be courting disaster. Even if casualties could be avoided, the damage to the HSR infrastructure could be very severe. For obvious reasons, that’s a lot easier to repair at grade than in a tunnel.
synonymouse Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 11:15 am
Merced is a podunk, while Sac is not. Bakersfield and Fresno would receive hsr service via a branch. Seattle could be wiped out in “30-50 years” from a 9+ San Juan de Fuca plate tremor. Shall we evacuate? Face it: you endorse Palmdale because the bosses in LA demand it.
There is no certain way to predict quake damage along the various escape routes north out of LA. The Tehachapi line got hit in 1952 so the Loop is not immune. Hold the nervous nellie – Tejon deserves to be revisited. Railroad history shows route mileage to be key and overriding.
Joey Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
LISTEN! No one is saying that Tehachapi is at any less risk of damage. The issue is that at-grade damage is several orders of magnitude easier to repair than damage in a deep tunnel.
Peter Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
And I don’t understand why you keep on talking about the Tehachapi Loop. HSR is not going to use the Loop OR the same ROW.
Dennis Lytton Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 2:36 am
People keep talking about the Loop because there is a heavy dose of railfan/foamer mentality still out there.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 6:17 am
Plus they’re insular foamers and have never encountered a really loopy line with high levels of <freight (and passenger) traffic.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Railroad history shows route mileage to be key and overriding.
Which is why the Erie railroad, which had the shortest route between New York City and Buffalo had the most trains running between the two.
Rafael Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Listen – if it were technically feasible to climb a 6% gradient with a steel wheels HSR trains today, CHSRA would long ago have told Palmdale and LA county they’re SOL. The Authority actually wanted Tejon Pass, it just proved too expensive and too risky.
The route via the Tehachapis wasn’t chosen in response to lobbying by politicians and developers. It was chosen for valid safety and cost reasons. Tunneling through very much active major fault lines is a dicey proposition and switchbacks on the surface would despoil remote wilderness and involve an awful lot of viaducts and short tunnels to cut across valley after valley. Not a good idea.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
I was being sarcastic. The Erie had lots of trains between Hoboken and Buffalo… serving the cities between the two. There wasn’t a whole lot of through traffic, the longer routes of the Pennsylvania RR and the New York Central RR were faster. The fabled Water Level route was the longest of alternatives.
wu ming Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
there are 210,000 people in merced county, it is adjacent to a major tourist site (yosemite/sequoia), has a UC campus slated for significant expansion, and is in a region where a lot of california’s future population growth is likely to happen. it’s a perfectly reasonable location for a minor run-through station.
there are over 4 million people in the san joaquin valley down the highway 99 corridor, that you’ve been determined to try and bypass or treat as second rate. putting the line where the people are makes the fastest connections between all of CA’s population centers. why the irrational hatred?, the obsession with denying those millions part of the infrastructure their tax dollars are paying for?
as for crossing known faults at grave vs. in tunnels, your repeated denial of the engineering problems with crossing below grade proves your ignorance on this matter. the last place i want to be in a major earthquake is underneath a ton of fractured, complex rock formations. for someone kvetching about boondoggles, you certainly seem to choose the most expensive options with the least ridership payoff a lot of the time.
Anthony Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
The HSR will give REAL OPTIONS to people, you can’t simply think “today” you have to think “tomorrow. The route is up the 99 I’m not concerned and I’m quite happy about it. It will give me REAL real estate options. Homes are much cheaper in some of these lower populated areas and if you can get back down to LA or up to Bay Area in a reasonable amount of time, then it will grow that area much faster with real transportation options.
It does need to be straight, we don’t need a tilting train set I hope and yes Emma will run into some of the same problems the Acela has if it has to make too many curves.
Dan S. Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
If synonymouse and morris are going to roll out the same old tired arguments then we may as well lumber out the same old tired (and logically defensible) counter-arguments. The I-5 racetrack route connecting only LA and SF is a poor alternative because:
(1) We need the state of California to pay for the train. We can’t get the state to authorize that much money to spend without getting more political support than just that of the metro SF / LA areas. Thus hitting smaller localities along the way is a necessary political compromise.
(2) To maximize the operating revenues of the train, it needs more customers than just those who will get on at SF or LA. There’s lots of potential customers in the valley, so it makes sense to route the train near them to entice them to buy tickets.
(3) Trains have a technological advantage over planes in that they can make a station stop and then resume their route relatively quickly. (A train is stopped at its station for maybe 2 minutes. Stopping an HSR train adds what, maybe 5 minutes overall to its final terminal arrival time? Compare to a plane — how much time does it add to the route to stop at an additional airport on the way? Maybe 45 minutes minimum?) The point being that adding stops on a railroad shoulders a much lower relative cost than doing so with a plane, to the considerable benefit of those who would use those stops.
To conclude, this train should “go where the people are” in order to best serve all the people who live and work along its geographical extents and simply in order to find enough dollars to get itself built and survive as an operating entity. At least that’s how I see it, speaking as someone who personally doesn’t plan on ever getting off the train between SJ and LA.
Clem Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
There’s a third way, not much slower than the I-5 racetrack and not much less convenient than an alignment through downtowns. That’s a rural alignment through farm land that skirts around central valley urban areas, with new or improved transit connections to downtown cores. The train should go close to where the people are, but not right where they are. If they try to run it directly where the people are, this will never be a 220 mph train and it will never do SF to LA in less than 3 hours. What the CHSRA proposes to do in the Central Valley (220 mph through downtown) is unprecedented in the worldwide history of high-speed rail, and for very good reasons. Will they realize too late?
Joey Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
How would you get around Bakersfield anyway?
Wad Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 12:19 am
Bakersfield’s urban system is Golden Empire Transit District, http://www.getbus.org.
Considering the land use and the conservatism of Bakersfield, the city has bus service that’s better than you would expect.
Unfortunately, the buses don’t go inside the train station, and it’s quite a walk to the nearest bus stops outside. The downtown transit center is a mile to the west and north.
Kern County runs a countwide rural intercity service, but with rural headways (meaning schedules where you count buses per day rather than divisions of a clock face).
If these don’t work, Bakersfield does have taxicabs and rental car agencies.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 7:10 am
Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. What I mean was (in response to Clem), if the high speed line were to circumvent Bakersfield (with a beetfield station), how would that physically work given the constraints of the route?
Wad Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Ah, OK. I thought you were asking about what to do in Bakersfield once you arrive. :)
The answer would seem to be “just build around it.” The Central Valley cities are still relatively compact and have a definite transition from developed areas to hinterland (contrast this with L.A., which is contiguously developed from the Santa Clarita Valley to San Clemente).
Since Bakersfield to L.A. can only be approached from the southeast, and Bakersfield itself has hills near its north end, your station site would be limited to somewhere south or west of Bakersfield in order to continue northwest.
If you absolutely, positively must go beanfield, Bakersfield has Cal State Bakersfield at the west edge of town. It isn’t as built up as downtown. Might as well place the near an activity-generating anchor.
Going northwest, you’d see that SR-99 is practically a Berlin Wall of development. The urbanization of the cities goes north and east of SR-99, while land west of it remains undeveloped or agricultural.
The downtowns of Fresno and Modesto are not at the center of the city, but rather at the edge. Both cities are growing north and east from there. SR-99 runs through the heart of Merced, and the older city footprint (evident by the diagonal road grid) is split evenly between the two. Note, though, that Merced’s growth pattern is mainly northward, inching toward UC Merced (a beetfield university campus).
With this in mind, I have doubts about Central Valley beetfield stations. The tradeoff of speed versus ridership seems too great. Giving Bay Area-to-L.A. riders higher speeds would mean the ridership must be so great that the end-to-end station pairs must generate more boardings than the permutations of Central Valley to Bay Area, Central Valley to L.A., and intra-Valley trips.
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
WOWing around Bakersfield would require a significant detour. The trade-off of avoiding downtown Bakersfield has to be balanced against the added mileage, significant impacts to farmland, and decreased ridership. It “doesn’t pencil out” in my book.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
No, what I mean is show me on a map how you’re physically going to get around Bakersfield.
Wad Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
I’m not advocating for avoiding Bakersfield. I’m in favor of serving the downtowns of the cities.
I do see ways that it’s possible, though.
Wad Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
Clem, what would be the trade-off in ridership by the ring approach you suggest vs. the center city stops at the sacrifice of speed?
It seems that the San Joaquin is already doing this outside of Fresno.
Modesto already has a beanfield station. Merced’s train station isn’t in the heart of downtown but the city is compact enough that the existing station is within the center.
Stockton riders must split their ride between two train stations.
Bakersfield has a station on the edge of its downtown, but it’s so walled off from its surroundings that you need a local bus just to get out of the station periphery to find yourself. (Otherwise, it’s an OK site. There’s a sports venue next door and its civic center is about a half-mile away.)
Interestingly enough, Modesto and Merced are using their old train stations as their existing bus transit centers. The Fresno station is three blocks from the County Plaza where its downtown buses meet up. Stockton’s bus center is equidistant between its train stations.
Since these are radial transit systems, the ridership base is already at the prospective station sites. Most of these cities would have a hard time funding a bus out to a beanfield station; they sure won’t relocate their central hubs out there in the hopes HSR would bolster ridership.
The use-case for outskirt stations would in effect turn HSR into a statewide version of BART. The ridership scenarios would depend on one-way traffic from the Central Valley to commute to jobs in Southern California or the Bay Area. A giant park-and-ride station would dampen the possibility of two-way traffic. It’s not far-fetched to assume that Central Valley cities are destinations, too.
Clem Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
I don’t know what the ridership trade-off would be, because peripheral stations have never been studied. That’s just not on the menu here in concrete-happy California. But there are many fine examples of peripheral stations in France (where there are NO downtown stations with high-speed through service ANYWHERE to be found, not one!) and Spain. If you listen to this lecture the good professor (chief engineer of HS2 in the UK) has some very enlightening things to say about station placement–several notches smarter than hurling “beet field” slurs.
I would expect in such a scenario that transit links to downtowns would be significantly beefed up, on the CHSRA’s dime. Just about the biggest risk is that every one of those turns into another Oakland Airport Connector (as it naturally would), with an out-of-control spiral of cost increase and transportation dysfunction. Which gets me to the most important point.
The biggest problem we have here is organizational: the agency charged with building HSR has no in-house expertise, let alone any ability to supervise their army of contractors. It should be structured like NASA with a large staff of top-notch civil servants working for you and me (taxpayers) and keeping the guys who work for them (engineering conglomerate shareholders) to a basic level of thrift. Failing that, we will get the HSR system we deserve: more expensive than promised, slower than promised, and probably not finished.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Lille? Also plans for the LGV Sud Europe Atlantique suggest that France may be gravitating toward the Italian solution. Maybe not though…
Clem Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
I said not one. Lille has a speed limit of 220 km/h (about 135 mph) for non-stop trains.
Clem Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:45 pm
Sorry, bad research– Lille is actually 200 km/h (125 mph).
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Fair enough, though I’m still wondering if the station loop option might not be worth it (then again, neither that nor the exclusive bypass were even studied…).
Wad Reply:
July 1st, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Clem, thanks for the link. I listened to the section about station placement. He seemed to have said that by going to the center of the cities, it would result in a fishbone type of service where intermediate stations would not be able to get through-routed service. Perhaps Britain has a lot of main terminals with stub ends (like at L.A. Union Station, which trains can only enter from the north end).
Would we still need peripheral stations in Fresno and Modesto? Both of these cities have downtowns on the periphery, not in the geographic center of town. Would these downtowns also need to be bypassed?
Bakersfield and Merced have the challenge of having a potential station site in the geographic center of their cities. Should these have also had peripheral stations?
And how about Stockton? This is the city that would be a challenge to serve under either a peripheral or a center-city station. It’s the most thickly developed city north-to-south, so you’d have very slow speeds. You’d also want to build a station site with use of the Altamont Pass in mind. As it is right now, Stockton has two stations for ACE and San Joaquins. On the periphery, the west is marked by several waterways, which also implies a flood plain. A northern or southern periphery site could very well push the station to somewhere closer to Lodi or Manteca. An eastern station would block speedy access to Sacramento.
Also, the UK engineer’s scenarios all imagine that a peripheral station would have a gravitational pull for growth outward to the periphery. I think in California’s cases, the danger lies in the peripheral stations displacing growth, where urban growth is kicked over to the station area and the older established areas are left to rot. (See the example of downtown Los Angeles, where heavy investment in new commercial building space in the latter 20th century did not result in a rush for demand but compelled the existing downtown tenants to move west of Broadway and cast off the Historic Core to become Skid Row).
Station placement may also dictate the type of ridership that will use HSR. Periphery stations would be better suited to commuters than general ridership. HSR stations may see the “BART effect” of a lot of Central Valley commuters parking their cars and going to the city, but see very little off-peak usage (families, leisure trips, etc.).
Rafael Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Clem’s right to observe that no railway anywhere in the world operates any trains at 220mph – or indeed, 125mph – through the downtown areas of large cities. Grade separation delivers physical safety, but noise is going to be a big issue.
However, beet field stations would dramatically reduce ridership and tearing up farmland to reach them is anyhow a huge uphill battle in the Central Valley. Madera county has already effectively vetoed a western bypass of its principal town.
Conversely, the Italian concept of a direttissima high speed line with slower detour tracks into downtown areas doesn’t make financial sense, because CHSRA cannot leverage legacy tracks to reach downtown stations.
The upshot is that CHSRA is going to have to find a way to curb noise emissions. Speed limits would reduce lucrative business ridership between SF and LA/Anaheim. My guess is they’re going to have to use very smooth rails+wheels in addition to floating slab track plus deflector plates near the rails plus hefty sound walls reaching at least half-way up the trains. In selected areas, full enclosures (i.e. tunnels above ground) may well be necessary. Those do cost a pretty penny, but still a whole lot less than actual digging or moving the route out into farmland.
I agree, though, that noise presents significant environmental risk to the plan of running express trains through Fresno, Bakersfield etc. CHSRA would be wise to tackle the issue as early as possible, e.g. by funding a number of dissertations to get a handle on the physics and exploring the viability and feasibility of these mitigation options.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
It might cost an additional $500k to $1 billion to build an additional bypass for Fresno. Might it be worth it?
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
No. Fresno is nearly completely strip malls and industrial along the alignment. It would make a lot more sense in Bakersfield, if it didn’t involve a much longer detour for the express trains. The current options in Bakersfield take out a lot more houses as well as impacting either BHS or a hospital than the Fresno alignments.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Thing is, noise travels. Especially when you’re 60 feet up in the air. Residential neighborhoods aren’t right up against the tracks, but they’re pretty close.
And yeah, I don’t see any way to physically bypass Bakersfield.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
and if it’s 60 feet up in the air it’s 60 feet away from the ground.
Clem Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Rafael, we already have a very good handle on the physics, after decades of advanced research and development by European and Japanese railways and train manufacturers. What we need is basic information dissemination, not dissertations, but the agency and its contractors have a financial and institutional disincentive to provide the relevant information about noise and vibration impacts to Central Valley communities.
As presently planned, this system will end up with 125 – 150 mph speed limits. That reality will prevail over any AB3034 mandates, supposing those aren’t forgotten anyway.
Dan S. Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
What’s that argument supporting the assertion that CHSRA has a disincentive to provide good noise and vibration info? I have always thought it was just lack of resources and general lack of attention on soothing the locals / NIMBYs. Sure, full disclosure of noise impacts might change the routing and engineering design of the track, but would it necessarily be to the detriment of the supposed governmental-industrial complex?
Alon Levy Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:52 am
Rafael, you’re butchering Clem’s argument when you introduce the 200 km/h number. Shizuoka and Hamamatsu get 270 multiple times per hour, Fukuyama gets 300, and Utsonomiya is about to get 320. It’s 350 that’s the novelty.
synonymouse Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Who is shortchanging the Valley? Bakersfield and Fresno would still receive faster service via a branch to the I-5 line and of course Sacramento would be on the hsr from the get-go.
When you Bechtel faithful champion the Central Valley you are invariably referring to the southern end of it.
Bechtel is too politicized and compromised to be objective. The issue is too important to be entrusted to them. We need an outside plan from a can-do base tunnel professional.
Palmdale can never be SOL – that’s what putting in a fix means. Who’s gonna payola an influence peddler whose fix can be undone?
Joey Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Mind showing a map of this proposed “branch” scheme?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
I doubt he has a clue. Might work out if you want to get from Bakersfeild to LA or SF, if you don’t mind two or three hour headways. Sacramento of Fresno means changing trains. Fresno might mean changing trains twice. Just the thing to attract passengers… those pesky passengers… to the train.
synonymouse Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
Where does 99 go south from Bakersfield?
Wad Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 12:00 am
Into Interstate 5 about 25 miles south of Bakersfield.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 6:51 am
maps work.
synonymouse Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:43 am
There’s your route for the branch to Bakersfield and Fresno. I guess the Division of Highways did not need Bechtel to find the best way to LA.
Wad Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Ever hear of the Grapevine?
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
“There’s your route for the branch to Bakersfield and Fresno.”
So, now you’re arguing for both a 99 AND an I-5 alignment? Talk about cost escalation. Did it ever occur to you that people in Fresno and Bakersfield would be interested in going to SF, Sacramento, or San Jose?
By the time we completed the whole high-speed rail track (2030) 230mph won’t be that fast anymore. By that time. There will probably be maglevs dominating Japan and European high-speed trains will reach speeds above 250mph. So we better aim high today so that we won’t need expensive upgrades. That’s why California High-Speed Rail needs as few curves as possible or we will end up like Acela: a train with a lot of potential but the track is too curvy to support higher speeds.
Rafael Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Have you seen the iconic bridge nonsense for crossing 280 and 87 in San Jose?
http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2010/06/news-roundup.html
That alignment has curve radii even more severe than the legacy tracks through Gardner (which are are already grade separated except for one handy-dandy-for-the-locals but essentially secondary road: W Virginia). For all the civil engineering sing-and-dance, the reality is trains will be limited to around 50mph by passenger comfort considerations between SJ Diridon and a little north of Tamien.
CHSRA keeps shooting itself in the foot by insisting on dedicated HSR tracks in short but very challenging sections where it can’t run fast anyhow. A properly equipped, operated and maintained dual track main line can handle 20 – in some cases even 30 – trains per hour. Exploiting existing tracks more aggressively comes with a lot of strings attached, but it’s still a good idea in certain short sections of the route.
Peter Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
If they do have to go with the 280-87 alignment, then can they at least skip the “iconic bridge” bs?
Peter Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
If they do have to go with the 280-87 alignment, then can they at least skip the “iconic bridge” bs? A normal aerial is perfectly sufficient.
Peter Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
Gahh, didn’t mean to double-post…
YesonHSR Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
the “iconic” part is only an option..I would think SJ may have to cough up some money for that.
Peter Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Well, given that Diridon at the last meeting was telling the staff to improve the animation of the iconic structure, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he wants the Authority to pay for it. This would be meant to appease the City.
I pray that for some reason the “iconic bridge” will be technically too difficult to construct.
HSRforCali Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
They’ve already got their prefered route. I say make SJ pay for anything extra outside of the bridge’s main structure (no iconic crap either).
Emma Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Ugh! That’s exactly what I meant. We need to set a limit, otherwise 230mph will be the highest speed for several decades. If they would avoid such things we only had to upgrade the trains to reach higher speeds. I mean TGV showed that their tracks are capable of more than 320 mph. The reason they don’t run those trains is mainly because of decreased comfort which could be solved through better suspension.
Alon Levy Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:45 am
No, the LGVs are not built for those speeds. On the LGV Sud-Est, the minimum curve radius sets a limit of 300 km/h for non-tilting trains. The newer LGVs are built for 400.
Dan S. Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
I really can’t imagine a way that you could “upgrade” an existing HSR corridor from rail to mag-lev, so I can’t give any credence to the idea of designing a rail-based HSR corridor with that kind of “upgrade” in mind. Not to mention that mag-lev is currently just “demonstration” technology and has yet to be successfully commercialized. While we’re spending billions of our well-earned dollars on necessary infrastructure improvements, I would recommend allocating them to proven transportation technologies.
I also doubt that steel-rail HSR will commercialize speeds beyond 220 mph very quickly after the completion horizon of CA-HSR. I think they chose an appropriate design-speed target. (But they’re not exactly hangin-tough with such flamboyant displays as the iconic SJ-87-280 shimmy, are they?)
Right now, IMHO, the mag-lev discussion in America is just a calculated technological diversion designed to entice us into avoiding the immediate needs of infrastructure policy and investment that we face. Kind of like fusion cars were going to save us from having to think about our oil-based transportation system for a while. The idea of a cheap, future, technological bail-out is enticing, no?
Clem Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Right. 220 mph is based on a mix of technical, economical and physical considerations that make it unlikely we’ll ever see speeds greater than that. Airliners are a fine example of a similar situation: they don’t fly any faster today than they did 40 years ago, and not for lack of ingenuity.
Emma Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
Guess why TGV was doing this 357.18 mph record? They were testing the new track. YES their tracks will be capable of those speeds because they avoid as many curves as possible. Conventional rail can already operate at 400 kmh. They only lack the technology to operate at such speeds without losing in comfort. But according to some European sources, they found a new technology for suspension and will soon expect trains operating at those speeds.
I was not talking about upgrading to Maglev. I’m sorry if that was unclear. I meant upgrading the conventional rail track so that it is capable of higher speeds than 230mph.
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
The question is when will the higher power consumption of faster speeds render them uneconomical…
Clem Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Oh please. It was a way-outside-the-box R&D program capped off with a publicity stunt. Just because conventional rail can theoretically operate at 380 – 400 km/h doesn’t mean it should. First, it’s extremely expensive to operate (both maintenance and energy go through the roof, and track capacity suffers) and second, it’s far easier and cheaper to achieve the same line haul times by speeding up the slowest bottlenecks.
The CHSRA doesn’t seem to get this: they are becoming ever more dependent on extremely high top speeds precisely because their engineers keep plopping obstacles in the way. Such as that twisty iconic bridge in San Jose. Just wait until the other shoe drops and we get those 150 mph speed restrictions through Central Valley urban areas…
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
How much time do they lose through the 280-87 alignment versus the Refined Program Alignment ?
Alon Levy Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:42 am
With the acceleration curve of the Velaro, how much time does a train lose from a 240 slow zone?
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
I thought Alstom was testing components for the AGV…
And of course pulling off a publicity stunt.
Clem Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
They did hit quite a few objectives during that test campaign. Read all about it.
Rafael Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Maglev folks keep shooting themselves in the foot by stressing ludicrous speeds.
Jeremy Clarkson of BBC’s Top Gear fame hosted a very interesting six-part series called “Speed” for the beeb in which he discovered that average travel speeds in the developed world are actually going down. Thanks to the Internet, now including reliable broadband wireless access, we can be productive while we travel. The old economics axiom that time spent in motion is wasted productivity no longer applies, at least not verbatim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmUn0HbXVQc
These days, the relevant advantages of maglev over steel wheels are higher acceleration, the ability to climb steeper gradients, lower noise at the same speed and lower electricity consumption at the same speed. Against that, there are a number of severe disadvantages, such as vendor lock (it’s Transrapid or bust) higher infrastructure cost (incl. the need for a wider ROW) and of course, incompatibility with legacy rail (i.e. inability to share tracks/need for transfers).
CHSRA decided a long time ago that the California system would be based on conventional steel wheels technology, which makes sense IMHO. However, it does mean accepting the limitations of that technology, including max. gradient and especially, the higher noise emissions.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Against that, there are a number of severe disadvantages, such as vendor lock (it’s Transrapid or bust) higher infrastructure cost (incl. the need for a wider ROW) and of course, incompatibility with legacy rail (i.e. inability to share tracks/need for transfers).
Ignoring the elephant in the room, the cost of the track and the cars. The track may balance out over decades, it is relatively low maintenance but the cars are going to eat a lot of that up. And until they figure out switching that’s going to be a problem.
Another excellent analysis Robert.
I would just add that once again when we talk about things priced in 2035 dollars we need to discount its net present value so that people can better understand its cost in today’s terms. If I recall correctly, the $40 Billion price is in 2035 dollars which equates to roughly $19 Billion in present day dollars (assuming a 3% inflation rate).
Similarly, a $108 ticket in 2035 equates to $50 dollars today. That certainly is a competitive price with airlines today and will likely be a bargain in the future as the cost of jet fuels rises.
Clem Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
The project cost is in year-of-expenditure dollars, not 2035 dollars. The ticket cost is in today’s dollars.
synonymouse Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
The long term problem for the hsr is going to be “profitability”. Simply how much money can it generate in a climate where public operating subsidies will be very unpopular if not nigh impossible. The hsr will require much more intensive and expensive maintenance than Amtrak-speed rail.
In order to produce the revenue it requires the hsr will have to charge premium fares and in order to do that it will need super-direct, super-express and super-high speed. It has to charge first class fares not coach to work.
The working class ordinary joe needs and uses a BART, not hsr, and the politicians will direct what little public funds are available accordingly.
Joey Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:44 pm
read
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Your assessment of the “climate” regarding public operating subsidies assumes permanently cheap gas prices. When that is finally gone, people will embrace subsidized passenger rail, just as they currently embrace subsidized freeways and roads.
HSR serves the “ordinary joe” in other countries and will do so here as well, assuming the route and speeds and station locations are all handled properly.
Do you have evidence that HSR will have to charge first-class fares to be profitable? If not, then it is not a claim you should be making.
S.S. Sam Taylor Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 10:52 pm
There continues to be a lack of reality and a lot of magical thinking about pricing. A real one way Southwest ticket between Burbank and Oakland today costs between $95 and $172. That Burbank to Oakland flight segment must achieve at least $25,000 in revenue with the plane filling about 60% of the seats on average.
Robert was quick to dismiss my point, but in actuality most of you here don’t have any experience in freight or passenger pricing, maintenance of way, signaling, operations or general overhead costs or any real idea what it takes to run a railroad. (Low speed, high speed or freight).
It was interesting to see that many here thought running a regional railroad had no comparison to running a intercity railroad. Well, they all work the same. You have so much capacity available in seats with a known service frequency and variable and fixed costs. You need to sell so many seats to meet your variable and fixed overhead.
Now that Metrolink is going to be run in a more businesslike fashion, we will actually have metrics and costs and seats to fill to bring the service more towards break-even. Right now, a trip segment between Lancaster and Los Angeles costs about $4,000 and on-average the farebox recovery is about 50%.
Now, if the train can cover the same distance in 25% or 50% of the time, you still have the $2,000 / hour operating cost. Can you do 1, 2 or 4 round-trips with the equipment? Is there ridership to fill the seats?
Now, maintenance of way increases dramatically with the increased speeds, so while your train productivity can go up, MOW and signaling can double, triple or quadruple.
Based on some simple numbers, the direct operating costs of each high speed trip between San Francisco and Los Angeles is about $25,000. Now you get the big difference between the train and the plane. The plane doesn’t have to additionally cost the MOW costs of 432 miles of track (x 2 or 4 tracks), initial infrastructure costs or replacement costs.
Robert, I don’t think it is fare to play fast and loose with the facts such as stating that Taiwan made a profit. It didn’t. “Taipei, June 23 (CNA) Taiwan’s high-speed rail system operator, Taiwan High Speed Rail Corp. (THSRC) , posted its first ever net operating profit in 2009 but net income was still in the red, weighed down by high interest costs and depreciation.”
This is based upon the fact that there is an operator. CAHSR doesn’t have an operator. Reworking loans to avoid default and changing the depreciation method may work for this operator, but some will also call this slight of hand.
Somehow, I believe that CA High Speed Rail will require an operator with deep pockets who can cover the full burden of costs until average ridership gets up to and beyond a break-even point. That could happen one day, but if the suppositions of the contractors designing the route to serve the San Joanquin cities with the structures envisioned place the MOW and other costs beyond any chance of break-even, the state could be in a dilemma.
Dennis Lytton Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 2:46 am
“A real one way Southwest ticket between Burbank and Oakland today costs between $95 and $172.”
Once there recovery kicks in very soon, oil will skyrocket to $200 a barrel, IMHO. Forget about cheap air travel.
synonymouse Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 9:51 am
“recovery”? What, based on sales of I-stuff, the wealthy buying more toys or the updrift of the yuan?
Doldrums is just as likely. Could even be a world wide downturn..
Joey Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Either way oil prices aren’t going anywhere but up. It’s just a matter of time.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 8:48 am
Who pays for the depreciation on airports?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:08 am
These comments, which completely ignore facts and realities, are dangerously close to trolling.
You need to stick to the evidence. We have plenty of evidence that HSR is profitable around the world. You appear to have neither experience with or knowledge of HSR system operations or pricing. The evidence we see is that it can be made to produce profits rather easily.
Your argument that Southwest’s fares will remain this cheap in 2020 or 2035 flies in the face of evidence as well.
If you do not stop making comments that reject evidence and make false assertions – in other words, trolling – you will be banned from this blog.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:52 am
Dear Robert,
US commuter rail costs 2 to 10 times as much to operate as regional rail does in advanced industrialized first world democracies.
US public infrastructure projects cost 3 to 10 times as much as comparable projects elsewhere.
CHSRA’s “projected” — before guaranteed, given the parties involved, massive cost blowouts — capital costs are several times as much as comparable projects elsewhere.
CHSRA’s service level projections and ridership “estimates” are pure, unadulterated, crack-smoking fraud. They don’t even pass the sniff test, let alone the giggle test. (9tph to San Francisco 25 years form now!) This stuff makes the Channel Tunnel business case planning smell like roses.
So, the question that honest advocates for efficient transportation in California have to ask themselves is: on what basis can we assume that HSR in California won’t cost twice as much to build as promised (again, look at the parties involved) and on what basis can we assume that HSR in California won’t cost 50% or 100% or more to operate than comparable systems elsewhere?
Writing blank checks and jumping up and down in little cheerleader outfits doesn’t seem the most promising route to a favourable outcome.
(And yes, I think that HSR is the right solution, and have thought so and acted in support of for decades. But not the system we’re seeing, and not anything from the cast of proven charalatans involved.)
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 11:57 am
As I’ve said of Alan Lowenthal’s claims about HSR ridership, you don’t get to claim they “don’t even pass the sniff test.” You need to actually show your basis for making that claim. You usually have no trouble providing evidence to back up your assertions.
As to the costs of commuter rail, have you assessed the economic benefits of those systems? It sounds like you’re taking an artificially narrow approach to the “costs” of rail.
Finally, it’s fine if you don’t think this HSR system is the right solution, though I am curious about what you view as the right solution, and whether you’re willing to wait another couple decades to build it. Given the economic and energy issues this state faces, it does not appear we have the luxury of waiting to make it perfect for you.
Caelestor Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
RM does has the technical expertise and experience that allow him to correctly recognize some of the flaws with the current plan (influenced by politics). What he needs to do, though, is what Clem is doing: trying to find a way to fix the problems and make do with what you have, instead of sitting around and complaining. Or is Pacheco just THAT bad?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Agree with that – he has the expertise to explain his claims, and should do so.
Also agree that critics should also propose their solutions. Mlynarik, however, seems to prefer condemning entire projects because they’re imperfect.
synonymouse Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 11:00 am
The US experience with Conrail provide the seminal argument that the CHSRA will have financial problems from the outset. In the real world there was not enough support and interest at the federal level for a nationalized railway, which the CHSRA approximates in a very real way.
The European hsr’s benefit from the fact they are tie in with an existing nationalized electrified railway network. We do not enjoy that benefit in the US. To a great extent the CHSRA’s route scheme is a overlay of the Union Pacific rr. The UP understandably views this proximity and lusting after as a threat, much as did the SP with BART in the early sixties. Many feel that is why BART ended up with broad gauge.
Government subsidies for public transit are primarily motivated by a desire to provide workers an alternate way to get to employment at rush hour without totally overwhelming the highway system. That is why BART, a very expensive system to both construct and operate, receives such deep public financial aid. Without public funds BART would be dead in the water.
Comparisons to hsr’s in third world countries or emerging economies with the future California system are not accurate because of California’s high labor costs. The CHSRA will be very hard pressed indeed to afford the armies of maintenance staff found in other countries. In the US low fares pretty much translates to low levels of maintenance, which would prove to be a real mistake with hsr.
Convincing the general public, and a potential private operator, that the hsr will be a money maker will be a very hard sell. The unprofitabilty of toll roads merely reinforces the skepticism.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Um, it is other countries that have the machinery to do precision track maintenance.
In the US we pay scores of union guys to stand around doing nothing while some other guys whack at things with hand tools. (Or with rocks.)
jimsf Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 11:39 am
^Can you ever make a comment without being a dick?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Really have to wander YouTube some time, the foamers love to go out and video the automated track maintenance machines rolling past. Might I suggest searching for “loram”. Lots of things come up which then lead to lots of other things which lead to more….
Peter Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 11:39 am
“Many feel that is why BART ended up with broad gauge.”
Weasel words won’t get you far on this blog. Show your sources or shut up.
synonymouse Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
There was a huge and notorious conflict of interest as two Bechtels sat on the SP’s board of directors. Crooked California – so why should the Palmdale caper come as a surprize?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
June 28th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
How does broad gauge benefit a standard gauge railroad?
synonymouse Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 12:27 am
Physical impossibility of interoperations. It would be interesting to know the SP’s position regarding BART in the Southbay at the time it was turned down(ca. 1962)/ The SP was in the final throes of getting rid of passenger service but the corporate headquarters was still in SF. My guess is that they thought the commute trains would die a slow death or BART would make another try, which indeed is still possible.
O/T, but the thread on Bakersfield is closed now. Here’s an op-ed suggestion from a Bakersfield resident to treat the HSR plan with a modicum of respect. I certainly appreciate his reasoning.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/45598