Offshore Oil Drilling and High Speed Rail
The Gulf oil spill may become the worst environmental disaster in American history. The scale of destruction is only now beginning to be understood. Oil is fouling beaches, killing wildlife, and causing massive economic damage to tourism, fishing, and other industries that depend on clean beaches and clean oceans.
California experienced a similar spill 41 years ago. An oil rig in the Santa Barbara Channel had a similar rupture at the wellhead in 1969, causing significant damage to the ocean, beaches, wildlife, and the region’s economy. It was this spill that initiated the big push against offshore drilling, not just in California but nationwide. California has held the line against offshore drilling, even though in recent years it’s been close, as Republicans nearly succeeded in opening the Santa Barbara coast to a new drilling project at Tranquillon Ridge.
As it becomes clear that the Gulf oil spill is almost impossible to cap, and similarly difficult to clean up, we are reminded of the desperate need for us to reduce our dependence on oil. We cannot drill our way out of our dependence crisis. Al Gore likened the desire to drill to a junkie searching for veins in his toes. For example, opening up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge would do next to nothing to help:

But it’s not enough to say we don’t need new drilling. It’s time we wound down offshore drilling entirely. The risks to our environment and our economy are too great.
Of course, we are still very, very dependent on oil for our transportation needs. We must reduce that dependence for our future prosperity (because it’s only going to keep costing us more money) and to protect our environment. So how do we get out of it?
One fantasy – and it is a fantasy – is that hybrid and electric cars will do it for us. This is the favored solution of all those who irrationally refuse to let go of the 20th century model of American life, dependent on sprawl and on the car. Just swap out a gas tank for a battery and we’re fine, or so the argument goes.
Of course, this ignores the traffic problems choking many American cities, including the Bay Area, which originally motivated the revival of passenger rail in the late 20th century. The cost to expand freeways to handle the traffic would be far higher than the $43 billion to build the HSR line from SF to Anaheim.
But even if that wasn’t a consideration, there’s another issue: where do you get the electricity? Currently 50% of electricity in the US comes from coal, with natural gas and oil playing a big role as well. Coal is just as dirty as oil, causes perhaps more carbon emissions, and its trail of environmental devastation is about as extensive as oil’s – West Virginia has been environmentally destroyed by coal, just as the Gulf coast is now getting hammered by oil.
Coal deposits are non-renewable. Same with natural gas, same with oil. And as China and India demand more coal, more gas, and more oil when their economies recover from the recession, those costs will keep on rising.
So what happens when you add a truly massive new amount of demand to the US energy grid in the form of mass ownership of electric vehicles? The cost of electricity will soar. It was only 10 years ago that California had its own energy crisis, and although it hasn’t returned, that is largely due to an aggressive and successful conservation program. We don’t have much electricity capacity to spare to enable the growth of electric vehicles unless we bring new generating stations online. And unless we want to merely recreate the economic and environmental costs of using fossil fuels, those new sources will have to be renewable.
But will Californians accept huge solar panel projects? Projects in the middle of the Carrizo Plain and the Mojave Desert have already faced criticism from NIMBYs and environmentalists, and wind turbines are notorious for producing NIMBYism. While we can and should push aside those objections, it’s not at all clear that even renewables will help meet the overall electricity demand if everyone in America drives an electric car. If we could meet the physical demand, the cost is not likely to be cheap.
It’s also massively inefficient. Moving more people by high speed train is better than people sitting in their electric cars for 6 hours on the way to LA or SF (if their car can even hold a charge that long!). Moving people within a metro region, or a megaregion, by electric commuter or high speed train is also more efficient than a bunch of electric cars sitting on the Bay Bridge or on Interstate 580 over the Altamont Pass.
Given those considerations, it would seem that high speed rail is a vital piece of the strategy to reduce our dependence on oil in an affordable, efficient manner. If we’re going to stop offshore oil drilling and protect our environment, we need to make sure California’s high speed rail project happens as planned.
It’s enough to make you wonder why city councils such as Palo Alto’s are making a de facto alliance with oil companies to prevent building those alternatives. Why does Palo Alto mayor Pat Burt oppose energy independence? Why do HSR critics and opponents believe we should have more offshore drilling, despite the risks? Because even though they may construct a fantasy world of affordable electricity for affordable mass electric car usage, the reality is that if you oppose or block HSR, you are merely deepening our dependence on polluting, damaging, even devastating oil extraction, at a massive economic cost to us all.

A few observations:
a) no-one really knows how much domestic demand there will be for oil in 2030, never mind 2050. Political and environmental concerns may well constrain oil supply relative to global demand (incl. BRIC and other emerging economies), leading to structural price increases that prompt the development and exploitation of alternative technologies. Innovation could disrupt both the supply side (e.g. J Craig Venter + Exxon = synthetic algae that produce not triglycerides but alkanes) and the demand side (e.g. telepresence + electric trains + cars + bicycles) of oil in the transportation sector. On the other hand, the engineering effort oil companies put into fields already in production also depends on the price of oil. Secondary and especially, tertiary extraction technologies require massive investments that have to be amortized over time. If politicians were willing to set a sufficiently high floor on the price of oil via new taxation, the oil industry would apply existing technology to re-open and scrape more out of fields it has already abandoned, rather than risk another Deepwater Horizon.
However, the fundamental point that drilling in the ANWR alone wouldn’t make a dent in the big picture is well taken. Real change can only come from measures on the demand side.
b) Hybrids are slowly improving the fuel economy of the US passenger car fleet, much like diesels have already done in Europe (albeit at the expense of air quality). Plug-in hybrids and range-extended vehicles are different engineering concepts with the same goal: using grid electricity to cover some fraction of total miles traveled. All-electric concepts take that one step further, but suffer from severely limited operating range, very high initial cost and moderately to very slow battery recharge cycles.
Note, however, that existing generating and distribution capacity would be quite sufficient to support millions of plug-in hybrids or all-electric cars provided they are trickle-charged at night. The unit cost of electricity would actually go down due to improved capacity utilization. However, net aggregate CO2 emissions would go sharply up if the primary energy source is a fossil fuel like coal or gas rather than renewable (wind, geothermal, biomass). AB32 is forcing utilities to shift away from fossil fuels, but that only applies for this one state.
Quite a few Californians could actually achieve a much greater reduction in their personal carbon footprint by purchasing an electric bicycle for commuting in the summer months. Range in level terrain is already on the order of 50 miles. Unfortunately, Californians still think of bicycles as sports equipment rather than as a regular mode of adult transportation (cp. Holland, Denmark), so any form of electric motor is perceived as cheating. One consequence is that most city-level traffic planners refuse to reserve road space for cyclists, except where it’s easy to do. Btw, you’d need a system in the 600-750W range plus adequate gears if you live in hilly terrain and need to climb 10% gradients at 15-20mph.
However, whether you electrify your personal mobility via cars or (folding) bicycles, high speed rail will be an excellent complement for medium distances of several hundred miles. It’s not either-or, Californians need both.
c) Perhaps the most important lesson to be drawn from this oil spill is that the price of oil generally excludes the associated risk to the taxpayer. If you still think that cheap gasoline, diesel and kerosene are a God-given birthright, perhaps this event will finally prompt you to consider the massive indirect burdens of waging war in Iraq plus the devastated fisheries and tourism industries in the Gulf of Mexico. If the oil industry really had to pay for all that, prices at the pump would already be much, much higher.
Of course, if you’re a baby boomer, you may not care: the public debt that is propping up your oil-based lifestyle and indirectly, the value of your home, will be serviced by future generations, even long after you’re pushing the daisies. Just be sure to cross your fingers they’ll be not just able but willing to foot your social security and Medicare bills until then. Intergenerational contracts cut both ways.
Dan S. Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
I’ve heard it asserted before that if we switched all gas cars to electric and then powered them off a grid fed by fossil fuels that it would be a net increase in CO2, but this goes against my gut feeling about it. I mean, if you are creating about the same amount of total energy but you are making it all locally in one giant, large-scale generation plant, won’t this have many efficiencies of scale over a distributed, generate-on-demand system with a little engine in every car?
Peter Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
An electric car charged by electricity from even a coal power plant is more energy-efficient than a car with a combustion engine. It’s more of an issue of the power plant being able to more efficiently capture and convert the heat energy from the fuel than a car’s engine can (where the heat energy is nearly completely wasted).
Victor Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 11:08 pm
Well I’ll stick with My non-hybrid, non-electric 25mpg ’99 Ford Escort zx2, But then I can’t afford a car payment as My income is way too low($845 a month SSI/SSP as I’m disabled, long story, Maybe $830 after July), I imagine It will also be My last car too. And HSR? I like It, a lot, But I’ll never ride It as I have nowhere to go, All My relatives are either in one area where HSR isn’t at(If ever) or their deceased and not even close to It.
dejv Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 2:34 am
You’re neglecting the power distribution & conversion efficiency bit.
TomW Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:08 am
That’s a good point, but I’m pretty sure it still works out better to use electricity, even the comparitively dirty electricty in the USA.
The USA gets a fair amouny of flak for its extensive use of coal, but its the only realistic option. It doesn’t have huge hyrdo resources like Canada or scandanavia, nor easy access to natural gas like Europe. Nuclear is poltically difficult (at best), although the USA actually generates more nuclear power than any other country (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country#Countries_with_nuclear_power_plants), making up about 20% of the country’s total power consumption. The only way I can see the USA’s electricity getting cleaner is through wind or solar power.
rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:36 am
Don’t forget about biomass aka stored solar energy. There’s plenty of agricultural waste volume (corn husks and stalks, manure etc.), the main issue in the US (incl. California) is that the control systems for the electrical grid are so antiquated that operators don’t want to deal with large numbers of small-scale electricity generators. In Europe, the EU has forced the big utilities to accommodate them.
Dan S. Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Thanks TomW. I would tend to agree. True, we have to consider storage and distribution of the power, but I’ve still always thought that switching to electric cars powered by the grid would be a net decrease in CO2 usage vs. the status quo. I still challenge the opposite assertion.
dejv Reply:
May 27th, 2010 at 8:41 am
Most of that decrease would come from regenerative braking, not switch from small engines to big plants.
Peter Reply:
May 27th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Running electric vehicles that have been charged by electricity generated by burning ANY type of fossil fuel (even coal) is more efficient than running any gasoline powered car. Power plants make much more efficient use of the generated heat energy than a car ever could (where the heat is essentially just waste). Regen is just a side-benefit, IMHO.
Peter Reply:
May 27th, 2010 at 9:02 am
And I just realized that I had stated that in this same thread already. Please ignore my second statement.
Nathaanel Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 12:03 am
Actually, the US does have huge hydro resources, just only in certain parts of the country. It’s worth noting that Canada is getting a hell of a lot more hydro out of their side of Niagara Falls than we are out of our side.
Nathaanel Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 12:03 am
Don’t forget geothermal. The US has huge untapped geothermal resources, mostly in the Rockies.
[Comment moderated]
Rafael Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
I don’t think we can blame Jesus for this oil spill.
D. P. Lubic Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Care to expand the thought? That could cover a good deal of territory.
In the Mojave Desert there is Wildlife to think of that lives out there, Bighorn Sheep, Mountain Lions, Bobcats, etc, etc. A friend of mine who belongs to the Sheep Society has cameras and lots of pics from animals going to drinkers that the Sheep Society, Of course thats currently on His PC, Not on the website, Although there are a few select shots there at the moment.
Joey Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Of course. Ecologically speaking, deserts are far from the barren wastelands most people think of them as.
Victor Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
As I mentioned below, Some officials can’t see the the forest for the trees and just assume nothing lives there.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Never said it was empty land.
However, our dependence on oil is helping change the climate and kill those animals. If we do nothing, the mass extinction currently underway worldwide will continue.
We can, and have, found ways to build a renewable electricity system that mix well with that kind of wildlife.
Victor Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
No, But some officials actually assumed It is empty, Until pictures were produced. Mind You I do like Solar and Wind, So does My friend with the Sheep Society, To Me there’s an almost useless dry lake nearby, It has a good sized area and mainly produces dust, Nothing lives on It or in It as It’s a left over from the last ice age out here, Solar(Photovoltaic) I’d think could be put there with landscape fabric, rinsed gravel(so hopefully no dust, the type that electric utilities like Southern California Edison use) and whatever else is needed to start a plant like that and the dry lake is at least 8 acres in size too. As to wind there’s a nearby Marine base that has a HUGE wind turbine that can feed about 335 homes with electrical power and It’s the biggest of 4 wind turbines in the area(the other 3 are owned by private property owners and are about 10Kw each) and I think It’s a 3.5Mw Turbine maybe, Not exactly state of the art, But It’s big, The area around It nearby that isn’t on the base and that’s in view of Barstow CA could house more of these wind turbines(the wind blows out here a lot and It doesn’t take much for the blades to start to spin) I’d think as this big one is connected into the grid(I assume the other 3 are too).
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 12:04 am
I agree Robert something must and should be done, I like animals and We should protect them from Humans, As We protect ourselves from them. It’s called regulation and not by an ineffective Government which some want Washington DC reduced to.
Oil will not last forever, I know and more importantly agree, As to where It can be found, It seems there are some places that have a lot more than were first thought, the Gulf seems to have a heck of a lot, Now If BP were not so much in a rush(at $1 Million an hour for work on the well, Safety of the environment comes first, As safety goes with profits, When one goes away so does the other, Besides their accident is wasting a lot of potential product that should never have been allowed to be run in such a slipshod manner). Danged if You do and danged if You don’t, sigh.
Andre Peretti Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 3:50 am
Project Transgreen aims to import 15% of Europe’s electricity from the Sahara desert.
The big problem is the system’s vulnerability to Al Qaeda. Guarding such a huge surface of solar panels will be next to impossible.
That’s a problem you won’t have in American deserts.
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 7:23 am
Agreed, On the other hand We have the EPA, the Courts, Environmentalists(representing the Animals and Plants there), BLM, etc, etc…
No I’m not for the idea of a Government that’s as small as It was back in the 19th Century when there weren’t so many complexities(or people then just weren’t as aware as We are today, So I’m not in favor of backsliding), Some things need oversight, Especially oil companies, railroads and phone/cable companies, among others that is.
The real secret to energy policy in the 21st century is going to be reduce the distance that energy travels as a way to cut costs. Fossil fuels require energy to be moved and no transmission line is made of a perfect conductor. For that reason it’s great n’ all to talk about wind solar, hydro and all the rest…but its always in the context of a traditional 20th century power plant.
Instead, there should be a focus on developing solar technology that can power homes off the grid and simulatenously charges electric vehicles in single family neighborhoods. Large facilities should use a combination of solar and nuclear to maximum effeciency (Florida Power and Light is doing such an experiment). If that’s not possible, there should be a mix of hydroelectric and natural gas plants to complement those nuclear/solar combinations.
High speed rail therefore, is an important tool in encouraging density and less use of cars as well as making trips more energy efficient.
The Gulf Oil disaster is days away from ruining Florida’s tourist industry for years. It’s also going to be hard on shipyards in Mississippi which are crucial to national defense to say nothing of the fishing in bayous….but hey…who’s counting?
synonymouse Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
Nothing has changed – the highway lobby rules. Thus offshore drilling, even tho it is much riskier than any base tunnel thru Tejon. Meanwhile LA wants to tunnel to connect two freeways.
No can do tunnels for Tejon, but for a freeway tunnel we don’t need no stinking Australian software. LA wants to detour thru Palmdale and berm PA to make up the lost time – let BP pepper Lalaland with offshore rigs.
Peter Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Only one person is delusional enough to think that they’re still looking at berms through PA. That person is you. Read the AA report.
synonymouse Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Now where is Palo Alto going to find the money for a four track subway? Bechtel knew there would be a furious reaction to berms. They would not have proposed berms unless they had adopted a concerted internal policy decision ruling out surface and trench. They fully intend to doublecross those Peninsula burgs once it has progressed to the construction stage. All of a sudden Bechtel will “discover” there isn’t enough money or trenches aren’t “safe”, just like the Tejon tunnels. And then it is back to berms and the hapless “nimbys” will have to go to war again.
Trust no one.
Peter Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Who said anything about only trenches? They’re looking at aerials as well. I personally think that an aerial is uglier than a well-designed berm, but the locals wanted it to be visually “permeable”. They’ll get the medicine they asked for, most likely.
Joey Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:57 pm
Heh … there’s a fine distinction between a “berm” (retained fill) and an aerial structure … something which I think a lot of people looking at this are going to miss…
rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 3:48 am
The information that CHSRA had based its initial cost estimates on retained wall berms in the mid-peninsula was on its website in 2007. Admittedly, this wasn’t prominent but it was there. Certainly, Menlo Park knew about it in 2008, as evidenced by multiple requests for a trench. Palo Altans simply didn’t make the effort to get informed and organized before the election. The big issue of the day was Altamont vs. Pacheco, i.e. how to get out of the Bay Area. The discussion wasn’t about how to construct HSR tracks through Silicon Valley but rather, about whether it should be done at all. San Francisco has 700,000 and San Jose a million inhabitants. Palo Alto has about 60,000. Unsurprisingly, the bigger cities won that fight.
Tunnels through Palo Alto would not add any transportation value to HSR. They would, however, introduce a host of new problems, e.g. tunnel boom for the communities that get stuck with the portals, noisy ventilation systems etc. The biggest issue by far, though, is funding. Right now, CHSRA has not yet secured anywhere near enough to build the starter line as currently conceived and it is still a long way from actually securing all of the rights of way, never mind local environmental approval. Ergo, adding cost right now to placate some very vocal NIMBYs anywhere in the state would be counterproductive for the project overall.
Palo Alto may succeed in delaying this project at significant opportunity cost to the taxpayer, but even in concert with other peninsula cities it simply doesn’t have enough political clout to get SF and SJ to abandon their dream.
A more constructive approach would be to leverage the town’s impressive collective intellect and take a long hard look at the new tunnels CHSRA actually has penciled in for the SF-SJ section: DTX in SF, 4th & King to Bayshore and, San Tomas to SJ Diridon. If any of those could be constructed at lower cost or avoided altogether via regulatory exemptions and/or modified operating assumptions, that would free up funds for a more benign solution in the mid-peninsula or else, for reducing overall project cost.
Similarly, if someone can come up with a way to get steel wheels HSR trains up and down gradients substantially greater than 3.5%, that would sharply reduce the total number of miles that need to be tunneled in the mountain sections and save billions in up-front infrastructure costs. The sticking point isn’t rated motor power but rather, rated torque at moderate vehicle speeds. Even HSR trains weigh quite a bit and hill climbing simply requires a boatload of traction force. Transmissions with a low gear would do the trick, but any HSR train capable of 220mph is going to need multiple traction systems that must reliably act in concert. Aside from co-ordination, the non-trivial issues of available space in the bogie and the reliability issues inherent in the additional mechanical complexity of the drivetrains.
Solid state options such efficient permanent magnet synchronous motors with field weakening features are promising but not (yet) sufficient to push the envelope on gradients while maintaining the high speed capability.
HSRforCali Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 7:05 am
That’s what I’ve always been saying. Imagine how much money you could save by building a two track DTX tunnels and sharing the existing tunnels with Caltrain from Mission Bay to Bayshore. The money saved could probably more than pay for a tunnel underneath Atherton, Menlo Park and Palo Alto.
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 7:29 am
Yeah with No stations in those 3 cities either and It could be called the AMP Bypass. ;)
Rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 7:51 am
Optimizing the DTX tunnel – check.
Sharing tunnels with Caltrain north of Bayshore – check, even if the 22nd Street station had to be closed and UPRR traffic into and out of the port of SF restricted during the day to make that possible.
Tunnel from Atherton to Palo Alto? Perhaps, but keep in mind that we’re talking about two tracks dedicated to HSR in this context. Caltrain and UPRR would still be at grade, still blocking cross traffic. That’s going to be a problem if/when Caltrain starts running 8-10 tph during rush hour (up from 5 today). Constructing new road underpasses would become impossible, overpasses would be the only option. Plus, the mid-peninsula station would definitely be in RWC, which would also host the north portal (which implies massive construction impacts and tunnel boom in operation). Considering the massive price tag, that still sounds like a raw deal.
If retained fill embankments are aesthetically unacceptable and aerials radiate too much noise to street level, perhaps keeping all of the tracks at grade in the mid-peninsula isn’t such a bad idea after all – provided selected grade crossings are converted to deep underpasses and measures are taken to aggressively mitigate noise and vibration.
synonymouse Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 9:36 am
Those Peninsula voters who voted yes on Prop 1 were proceeding from the assumption that the combined hsr-Caltrain would be at grade and/or trenched.
The berm idea was intentionally provocative. My take is that BART is behind the berm strategy, trying to totally torpedo Caltrain the way it successfully killed the Caltrain Transbay Terminal tunnel in the early nineties.
Actually BART Ring-the-Bay does make a lot of sense altho an OCS standard gauge Caltrain would be preferable and BART really does deserve to be upstaged. Either BART or Caltrain would make direct hsr connections to San Francisco and San Jose redundant. And the 101 corridor is always available if money is no object.
Looks to me like Altamont is going to be seriously revisited. But the Tehachapi detour is by far the weak link in the CHSRA scheme. Would that the UP can find a way to harass the hell out of the hsr in the Tehachapis and force Bechtel back to the drawing board.
Peter Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Your conspiracy theories entertain me daily. Please keep them coming.
synonymouse Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 9:48 am
The conspiracy to kill the Caltrain tunnel to Transbay was sadly all too real. Quentin Kopp, Willie Brown and BART-Bechtel were the usual suspects and guilty as hell.
Too bad as it was a very good idea. Still could be done – just for Caltrain and forget the hsr.unless they want to come in via 101 later.
Rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Quentin Kopp has made some questionable decisions in his time, but the preference for els in the mid-peninsula was prompted by the following considerations:
a) a number of gravity-drained conduits cross the Caltrain ROW, so trench concepts increase the risk of local flooding as well as cost
b) at-grade alignments imply new deep underpasses, which would disrupt traffic patterns on and near frontage roads, especially Alma and Central Expressway. A significant number of residential properties would lose curbside parking spots and/or driveway access.
c) of the elevated options, retained fill embankments do a better job of damping structure-borne noise and vibration than aerials. Yes, embankments are visually massive but so are the support columns needed to support any aerial suitable for UPRR’s super-duper-heavy freight trains. The objective has always been to grade separate Caltrain – and hence UPRR – as well as HSR.
Peter Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Like Rafael implied, if you want to blame anyone for the extent and gravity visual impacts to the Peninsula, blame UPRR.
HSRforCali Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Not to mention Kopp is still trying to kill Transbay by having HSR terminate either at 4th and King or a new station adjacent to Transbay.
Since the terminal will probably be able to handle 12-14 Caltrain/HSTs an hour, why is a 3 track DTX tunnel necessary? It seems like a two track tunnel could handle as many as 20 trains per hour, same applies for the tunnels between Mission Bay and Bayshore. It seems to me this type of over-building is what equals cost inflation which equals more controversy.
dejv Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:21 am
The best use of money saved on approach to SF and SJ is to fix design of Transbay so it matches capacity of tracks on Peninsula.
Joey Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
That freeway tunnel project is rather amusing actually. Total cost would likely be upwards of $1 billion per mile…
TomW Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:12 am
… which I would guess is at least twice what it would cost to build a railway tunnel capable of carrying the same number of people. Railways are the cheap option.
Victor Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
Actually that tunnel is to complete a section of the I710 freeway that connects the harbor to the 210 freeway which goes north to the I5 freeway, But then not everything can go by rail and this last link would allow vehicles to keep out of downtown Los Angeles and would ease congestion on those freeways, Oh and Los Angeles has a lot of rail passenger traffic and more is supposed to be built. So I wouldn’t exactly call It useless, But then I lived in the Los Angeles County area for most of My life before 1988.
This i710 tunnel(s?) is supposed by paid for partly with tolls(75% I’ve read), So far the last obstacle is La Canada CA which has had the Northbound i210 freeway all to their self for over 40 years.
AndyDuncan Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 9:22 am
The i710 tunnels were supposed to be paid for mainly by selling the real estate that the state bought back in the 60s to tear down and build a surface-level freeway. The state owns all the homes along the original route.
Under the most optimistic of the plans, when the real estate market was at it’s peak, they could have sold the homes at market value (let’s pretend for a moment that selling a couple hundred homes in the same area won’t have any effect on real estate prices, to be fair they would have sold them over the course of years, but still that’s a lot of sales), and then used the profits to fund the development.
However, under those rosy predictions, the cost of all those homes wouldn’t have accounted for all the cost, and the actual cost of building the tunnel was estimated by USC (hardly an anti-freeway institution) as around 3x the original estimates, or about $6b.
Now that real estate in that area has tanked, the value of the homes is about half what it was when the initial estimates were made, and the costs have gone up.
The tolls simply won’t be enough to fund that project, to say nothing of the additional cost to build out supporting capacity on the connecting freeways.
But it’s all relative, that tunnel will cost more than the purple line extension to Santa Monica (the whole thing, not just the section to westwood which is on the 30/10 plan).
Like TomW said, rail is the cheap option.
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Maybe for Passengers, But not for short haul truck traffic heading for either the central valley or elsewhere to the north. Besides It will ease congestion by diverting truck traffic off of I10/US101 into Downtown Los Angeles, Having everything going by rail is not practical, Cause there are places on the Map that rail simply does not serve and will never serve.
Nathaanel Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 12:09 am
Rail remains the cheap option. Short haul truck traffic that distance from a port? That’s not short haul any more.
Load from the ships at the port directly onto trains (amazingly, the port is not well-equipped for this yet), and build an intermodal “inland port” to transfer the containers onto trucks northeast of LA.
Victor Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 6:12 am
My Nephews a Truck Driver, He’d say It is as He drives a Semi for a living to support Himself and His family with.
YesonHSR Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 12:17 am
They can Hoover it up…
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Sears Kenmore here.
Nathaanel Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 12:06 am
Uh, just because BP certainly shouldn’t have been doing dangerous offshore drilling doesn’t mean that the CAHSRA should build an extremely expensive and unsafe tunnel…. where do you *get* this stuff? Even the Swiss avoid underground crossings of fault line intersections.
Dan S. Reply:
May 25th, 2010 at 10:19 pm
I have heard that Israel is highly motivated to not be too dependent on oil-producing countries (go figure) and mandates that all new construction include solar panels. I would expect it to pay pretty quick dividends. Anyone know some good details? I see wikipedia says that it is “almost cost-competitive with fossil fuels.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Israel
rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 4:00 am
The problem with solar, in addition to the cost of the collectors, is that you need to somehow store the energy if you want the facility to keep generating electricity after sunset. Thermal solar based on molten salt looks promising, but you absolutely have to keep it above a certain temperature at all times or your entire installation grinds to a halt. It might even suffer permanent damage.
In Israel’s case, storing the energy in a hydro dam isn’t feasible. A simple but also expensive approach would be to switch to e.g. natural gas co-gen at night.
However, concentrating PV could still be very interesting if the coolant cycle for the high-temperature cells is used to partially evaporate salt water that is pumped inland for the purpose: use the waste heat to produce fresh water! With both Jewish and Arab populations growing fast in the region, there’s a risk of a hot war over scarce fresh water resources at some point in the future. Why not use the sun to mitigate that risk?
Dan S. Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Heh, the problem with solar is that the sun goes down at night? :-) True! Not sure who was suggesting a 100% solar energy mix, but hey, good point. ;-)
I was just giving kudos to Israel and suggesting we follow their lead. That’s an awesome example of public policy leading to changes in energy generation and dependence. Now that new buildings have to install them, 4% of that nation’s total energy demand is satisfied by those solar water heaters alone! Apparently saves them 2 million barrels of oil a year.
If we as a nation can just look ahead just a touch past 5 minutes from now, we could put a tax on carbon, institute some aggressive public policy (like this example from Israel), and start weaning ourselves from that oil pit asap. Sound good???
I agree regarding the need for HSR vs. simply banking on electric cars. Some people seem to love slamming the thought of building out a HSR infrastructure. I’ve heard arguments that electric cars are the only true replacement for our current mode of transport. This is utter bologna.
First of all, there is a tremendous gridlock problem, as you pointed out, and it isn’t going away any time soon. Electric cars are not helping this problem. It’s just a one-for-one swap from gas to electric.
Then there’s the energy storage issue. Some companies have been developing ultracapacitors as a replacement for lithium-ion batteries, but thus far it’s mostly been vaporware. But let’s say a company produces a fantastic ultracap for electric cars. Where exactly do we get the power to charge a state full of these EVs in 5 minutes or less per car?
In case you were wondering, a gas pump can be thought of as a roughly 21 megawatt power station. That’s the flow rate of energy out the pump and into your car. For electrics, you’d probably need a little over a megawatt per car to charge it in 5 minutes.
If you had thousands of EVs charging simultaneously across the state, the draw on the electric grid would be enormous! Just for some sample numbers: 10,000 EVs charging and requiring 1.2 MW per car would require 12 Gigawatts of power! Today, the CA power supply topped out at around 29 GW. Obviously the system uses variable supply, but obviously we also do not have the power infrastructure to support such MW+ charging stations state wide.
Basically, the technological hurdles we’ll need to jump over to get to widespread use of electric cars are a lot more difficult than many people imagine. High speed rail systems are vastly more efficient than EVs in terms of watt per person. HSR systems, combined with intelligent urban planning, will help immeasurably in reducing gridlock, pollution, and our dependence on fossil fuels. Obviously power plants still use coal (we should be building nuclear plants, but that’s another story), but our goal should be to increase efficiency and usage-consistency.
One other thing HSRs are great for: improving communities. Some NIMBY-folk from Shallow Alto would scoff, but taking cars off the road and using trains can do wonders for cities. Centralizing the urban center, using land more effectively, and most importantly, taking noisy and fast moving cars off the streets can make a town quieter, more socially active, and more livable overall. Shut down a city block from traffic for a week and I bet people will meet neighbors they never even knew existed.
rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:22 am
Where is it written that EVs need to recharge in 5 minutes at any time of day or night? Why not 10 or 15? Why not 8 hours at night only? Consumers have always accepted inherent limitations in new technology that is still, on balance, very useful. There is no need to demand that EVs be a drop-in replacement for conventional cars.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:46 am
The power doesn’t have to come from the grid all at once either. The same vaporware ultra capacitors that the car uses could be at the refill station quietly recharging at a slow rate in preparation for someone who needs a quick fillup. Most people wouldn’t need one and will be refilling at slow rates overnight.
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
EVs are nice, But people like Me will never be able to adopt them, Too costly to replace the batteries, much less finance.
I’ve seen some figure showing that big part of U.S. electricity consumpiton goes to HVAC of poorly insulated buildings so there’s a room for energy savings.
The trouble with solar projects is that they are really intrusive and they also aren’t that efficient, because of multiple power conversion and large power storage needs. Better approach is IMO to place solar panels on roof of every house and use in-house supercapacitors to store the energy. That way, there’s only one power conversion between power source and socket – from low-voltage DC of solar panels and supercapacitors to grid AC. There are just two little political problems with such approach – no pork is left for big construction and power distribution companies and somebody must persuade people to to have the panels installed.
rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 4:57 am
Inefficient residential HVAC systems are indeed a demand problem, but mostly because consumers tend to switch them on in large numbers during a short period (i.e. when they get home from work). Worse, they usually set them to the highest power level to cool their dwellings back down as quickly as possible. In combination, that causes severe peaks in demand for electrical power, which is what the generating capacity and distribution grid needs to be sized for.
Architectural measures such as self-shading or mutual shading architecture, courtyards with water features and/or roof and window insulation would help a lot. So would more efficient A/C devices, optimized for the humidity levels in which they need to operate.
http://www.kqed.org/quest/radio/air-conditioning-reinvented
The big problem is that the cost of residential peak electricity is simply too low to justify the incremental investment. In terms of cold hard dollars and cents, PV solar remains even less attractive for John Q. Public. Unless you’re co-generating fresh water, focus on negawatts (i.e. curbing demand) rather than megawatts (i.e. increasing supply).
dejv Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Traditonal houses in European countries with hot summers have thick walls, that provide thermal insulation and in mediterranean countries, they also extensively use window shading. Together, it can keep house cool through whole day. Note that current low-energy house designs use modern means to get similar results (or way better in terms of insulation).
Current codes in temperate European countries mandate maximum heat transfer coefficient of 0,4 W/K.m^2 for most buildings (0,25 or lower is recommended) and 0,3 for light buildings without much thermal capacity.
Local green party pushed a regulation that income from emission allowances sold to other countries is reserved for subsidies for insulation of homes. During first year (two years ago), there was only a handful of applications, but after that, authorities got overwhelmed by them and last year, it was one of main things that kept construction bussiness running, so such programs can be made attractive to general public.
Rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:29 am
True, but those thick walls are usually brick or cinderblocks, which are decent heat sinks. Medieval buildings used solid clay or granite, which do an even better job of staying cool to the touch. Unfortunately, you can’t build with masonry in an earthquake zone (though much of the Central Valley is arguably not at significant risk).
dejv Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:51 am
Today, you can replace traditional heat sinks with concrete (or concrete-something composite) floor and ceilings and increased thermal resistance of walls and windows.
O/T: Looks like HSRA could lose its planned SF yard site in Brisbane … a developer has big plans for the long-vacant old SP Bayshore yard:
$425m plan for old Brisbane rail yards near Bayshore Caltrain stop
Peter Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 9:05 am
I guess it’s now time for HSR to officially declare its interests in that yard. With the implication that the developer’s big plans may be victimized by eminent domain if he decides to go forward.
Rafael Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 10:05 am
AB3034 gives CHSRA the authority to make certain small-scale land acquisitions (incl. via eminent domain if need be) to preserve a right of way or secure other vital resources. I guess a yard near the northern end of the starter line would fall into that category. CHSRA hasn’t pursued the Brisbane location because (a) it’s contaminated and (b) current plans call for a track re-ordering and new single-track tunnel tubes to either side of Caltrain’s tunnel #4. That would complicate the short deadhead runs to the Transbay Terminal.
There might be an alternative in the port of SF near Amador St., but some eminent domain would likely be involved to reach it. The next nearest undeveloped patch is Marina Vista Park in San Bruno, just north of Millbrae station. Access would be complicated by the BART ramps.
Victor Reply:
May 26th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Oh too bad for the developer. :D
I agree CHSRA should claim that area pronto…