What’s Wrong With Victorville?
Fast Company took a look at the DesertXpress project last week and pronounced it “fail rail” because the SoCal-to-Vegas high speed train project would initially terminate in Victorville:
Angelenos will have to take one train to Palmdale, then travel on another not-yet-planned route from Palmdale to Victorville before they finally board the final leg to Vegas (although planners assure us that the trains for all routes will be interchangeable so you might not have to switch trains). Still, though, that will hardly be convenient for anyone who needs to get to a slot machine by sundown…what gives?
What’s left unsaid is that even driving to Victorville, parking, and taking a bullet train would be MUCH faster for many SoCal travelers headed to Vegas than the usual backups on Interstate 15 – which usually begin just past Victorville.
Of course, if DesertXpress were going to simply stop at Victorville for good, then the Fast Company article might have a point. But the fact that CHSRA and DesertXpress officials are talking about a link across the flat High Desert between Victorville and Palmdale makes the starter route of Victorville to Vegas that much more sensible.
A look at the fancy new station planned for Victorville was like a tip of leaders’ hand–this is an economic full house for the small California city. But the biggest issue might be securing the right-of-way into Los Angeles–negotiations for a route get significantly more dicey once you enter its more populated Inland Empire.
In fact, the issue isn’t limited to the Inland Empire, but is more significant in getting there from Victorville. The Cajon Pass already has a triple-tracked BNSF ROW and Interstate 15. There’s not a lot of room left over for HSR tracks.
At some point, it might be useful to close the Victorville-San Bernardino gap in HSR. It’s only about 40 miles, and though the aforementioned issues are significant, as would be the costs, it would potentially add capacity to the LA-Vegas corridor, as well as help those residents living in the Victor Valley commute to jobs in the Inland Empire. Of course, it would also make it much easier for San Diegans to get to Vegas via HSR as well.
The interstate highway system was often built with these gaps, most of which have been closed over time. DesertXpress will be useful even when it stops at Victorville, and will become extremely valuable when the link to Palmdale is completed. It’s not perfect, but neither is it an example of a “fail rail.”
(Note: there’s been a spate of recent articles on HSR funding and public-private partnerships. I’m working up a bigger post on the topic for tomorrow, so let’s hold off on discussing any of that here, unless it specifically pertains to the DesertXpress project.)
I see that the Federal Railroad Administration is the lead agency for reviewing the EIS/NEPA; but, where is DesertExpress’s efforts on CEQA?
Peter Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:31 pm
I can only imagine they were not required to prepare an EIR.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:59 pm
The Surface Transportation Board exempted them from CEQA, though DesertXpress states their DEIS would satisfy CEQA anyway – at least according to this filing (see footnote #2 at the bottom of page 4).
Peter Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 8:22 pm
That’s interesting. I did not know that a federal agency could be a lead agency for purposes of CEQA. Although it does make sense given the interstate nature of DesertXpress.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
That has to be wrong… as we know a Federal Agency cannot make such an exemption.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Re-read… I understand the argument, but it seems the wrong decision was made.
Peter Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
As in, the STB was the wrong agency to act as lead for the project? Why?
Peter Reply:
April 5th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Hmmm, but according to DesertXpress’s website, the FRA is the lead agency for the EIS. When did they take over from the STB, and why?
I’d love a bus connection to Victorville from Union Station. The point is I don’t want to drive to Vegas period.
Peter Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Where does Greyhound leave from?
Spokker Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
I don’t know because I hate Greyhound. I wish Amtrak would let you ride their buses without having to have a train ticket.
Spokker Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Oh, I just remembered. Greyhound has a station on/near Skid Row in LA.
jimsf Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 10:53 am
Spokker, amtrak’s bus route from la to vegas is operated by greyhound from out of LAUS to downtown vegas (greyhound term) The bus rule about having a train ticket is not Amtrak, its a california state law that amtrak us forced to comply with. Generally you can just book your trip from the nearest rail stop and it won’t change price much if at all. Also to my knowledge, we can also ticket you on a bus so long as you show some kind of rail proof, which could be metro link or even red line, etc. The being that amtrak buses are there for you to act as a feeder to a rail connection and not allowed by state law to be a point to point (all bus) carrier as grehound sued amtrak for providing such service – unfair unautohrized competition, and won the suit. just buy a ticket from fullerton to vegas. $59 FUL-LAX-LVS
What’s wrong with Mojave?
Alon Levy Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:05 pm
It splits frequency. It leads to an awkward situation in which Palmdale-Victorville is better at the beginning but Mojave-Barstow is better after ridership has had time to ratchet up.
AndyDuncan Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
I still think it’s better to connect at Mojave in the first phase, eventually adding Cajon at a later date.
In any of these situations though, a connection at palmdale, mojave, over cajon or a combination of those, the station at Victorville is going to be a ghost town. The architectural models show huge, palace-like station designs for Victorville. In any build-out scenario, victorville would only need to be two platform tracks and two express tracks going through it (which is where most of the trains would be running).
So then you’re left with what? 2 stopping tph and a giant terminal station with empty platforms. Even if they could find a way to run some sort of fast eletrified metrolink service on it, you’re still only looking at 4 or so tph.
Just read the “fail rail” article. What a complete load of crock. I guess the author didn’t bother to do any research beyond looking at the DesertXpress site. Yes, Palmdale is not yet listed as a destination, since the route to Palmdale hasn’t been determined completely. And why does she think that DesertXpress would have to have its own separate ROW into LA? Has she never heard of multiple operators using the same tracks? Has she ever even been on a train?
Is the author an idiot, or just an intentionally misleading slimeball?
EJ Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 11:26 am
Wow, you’re a nasty one. The DX proposal that the author is responding to goes to Victorville, not Palmdale. Sure, there’s been some vague handwaving about going to Palmdale, but DX as proposed is claiming they can make money from Victorville-Vegas.
If the DesertXpress is suppose to be compatible with CHSR then it should be mandated that it will be able to go 220 mph. After all there is nothing but wide open desert from Palmdale / Victorville to Vegas. No NIMBYs. I am sure the elevation has something to do with the speed, but since there are going to spend billions of dollars they might has well spend the extra money to increase the speed to 220 and beyond.
Peter Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 10:52 am
Well, I think they limited it to 150 mph because there are only regulations for operations up to 150 mph at this point.
AndyDuncan Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
There’s also the issue of them running it down the median of the 15. That saves them having to build more overcrossings and grade separations, but it means they’re curve radii is limited to what they can squeeze into that existing ROW. I have no idea what the exact curve radii are on that highway, though it’s pretty straight in most places.
Peter Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
So far from what I can tell from their EIS they have curve radii as tight as 3000 feet in the middle of the desert. They also have grades of 3.97%, which would also limit speed. There may be tighter curve radii, but I didn’t look over the entire alignment maps.
Peter Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Not sure how slow they would have to go through 3000 foot radius curves, although it can’t be fast.
Alon Levy Reply:
April 5th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Off the shelf non-tilting trains are limited to a cant deficiency of about 130 mm at a speed of 240 km/h. At higher speeds, cant deficiency has to be lower; at speeds higher than 300 km/h, non-tilting trains should not exceed 100*. The maximum cant possible is 200 mm, but it’s almost unheard of; 170-180 is a more common value for dedicated high-speed lines. With 180+130 mm equilibrium cant, the maximum speed through a 900-meter curve is 155 km/h.
However, at 240 km/h, there are multiple off-the-shelf tilting trains, capable of 250 mm cant deficiency or, in one case, 318. With 180+250 mm, the speed limit is 185. But on a new dedicated line, tilting trains are total overkill, and curve radii should be at a minimum 5.2 km, to allow trains to run at 350 km/h. The cost of building an el to transition from one side of the ROW to another should be lower than the value of the time saved.
Mark Reply:
April 5th, 2010 at 10:53 am
There’s also a safety issue – I hope DesertXpress are using very good crash barriers – the prospect of a truck careering into the path of a 150mph train carrying 500 people doesn’t bear thinking about.
Alon Levy Reply:
April 6th, 2010 at 7:57 am
DX should be aiming to use the crash barriers used on LGVs twinned with motorways, instead of invent its own overbuilt solutions.
Alon Levy Reply:
April 5th, 2010 at 4:20 am
HSR is capable of running on the Caltrain corridor at 125 mph, and it should be capable of running on DX at 150.
….or Desert Express builds the system and runs into financial problems. CAHSR buys it and rolls out service to help fund the rest of the statewide rail system.
Peter Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 10:51 am
And would likely buy it cheap.
jimsf Reply:
April 5th, 2010 at 11:02 am
I was thinking the same thing. The thing about it, once the infrastructure is in place, it opens up multiple options for success, ranging from a dx operator backing out and ca buying the assets cheap, to having multiple operators using the dx and ca tracks, or any number of combinations/outcomes in between. This holds true for the future of the ca network as well. private, public, public-private, multiple, in the long run the details will work themselves out based on economics, but no matter the outcome, californians get hsr service. PersonallyI think that, like health care, it makes more sense to just get rid of the middleman and profit motive, and stick with just breaking even on the basic cost of providing service, with the driving force being to create the best scheduling for the riding public, rather than have the driving force be profit for shareholders.
Risenmessiah Reply:
April 5th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
No disagreement here. I’m betting that they’ll build some functional track and it will never have an operator or the service will struggle. CAHSR meanwhile, builds some track to connect it to Palmdale and starts to run HSR service on the DX track and uses the normal track in LA County. The service proves popular and ends up saving CAHSR’s operations for the rest of the state.
My history attests to the fact that I am pro-hsr, but I couldn’t help but chuckle at “fail rail.” It’s quirky enough to catch on. We could call peninsula Nimby’s “fail railers”
Id prefer mojave, but perhaps in the future when success is proven, it wouldn’t be too hard to get a route 58 line.
It is definitely not “fail rail.” I think they will have solved the problem before California begins to build the extension to San Diego. Desert Xpress will be Las Vegas’s goose that lays golden eggs.
40 miles on a high speed train would be around 5-10 minutes. It would be a shame if they wouldn’t extend the line to Riverside.
The gap could be closed through either a separate diesel shuttle train like the [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Sprinter_at_Oceanside.jpg]North County TD Sprinter (Siemens Desiro)[/url] OR an extension of one of the high speed rail lines. The second idea would turn Victorville in a less important station, however I could imagine that CAHSR or DesertXpress could offer a single ticket from San Diego to Las Vegas including baggage transfer from one train to another. A concept that wouldn’t work well with a shuttle bus, or train.
Btw. here is a concept of the Victorville station that Cruickshank praised:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/galleries/2010/mar/25/desertxpresspc/50822/
When you click on next, you can also see the concept for the Las Vegas station
Joey Reply:
April 4th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
It would be nice to see a link over the Cajón Pass, though I doubt we’ll see one for a while. Like you said, maybe an interim solution on the existing rail lines. In the long term though, such a high speed rail link might be viable, to provide direct access from the Inland Empire and San Diego to Las Vegas, and possibly to cut down NorCal-San Diego travel times as well.
By the way how many platform tracks is DX planning for their termini?
Fail Rail is the term for not doing it. A high speed rail between Vegas and Southern Cal is needed. Feeder buses to Victorville followed by feeder trains is acceptable to start with. Why not a feeder monorail system “from down the hill”? Built right down the middle of the I15 and looping through the high desert to Victorville and stopping at the high speed rail station for easy transfer to the DesertXpress. The monorail feeder system could terminate at the San Bernardino train station and at the Palmdale Transportation Center. We at 888BAILMAN are all for it.
For a privately funded enterprise 150mph makes sense: less expensive rolling stock (probably the Regina derived CRH1) and lower energy costs. Tom Stone should be congratulated for seeing this project through to implementation.
The glass tower blocks in the Las Vegas model, what are those? An existing development or something proposed?