The Consequences of HSR Misinformation

Apr 5th, 2010 | Posted by

Yesterday we took a look at the debate over private funding for HSR, and determined that while there are serious issues to consider with how private funding is used, there doesn’t seem to be any real doubt that private funding would indeed materialize. That hasn’t stopped HSR deniers from peddling their misinformation to the media, which runs with it since most members of the California media, a few folks aside, do not have a good understanding of what HSR and how it works and succeeds in other countries.

Instead, working off a limited knowledge base of passenger rail operations that too often rests on the assumption that it is unprofitable and unpopular, and trained to be skeptical of government officials and government programs, too many California journalists find themselves willing to believe just about whatever they’re told by an HSR denier who has the sense to frame their denialism in moderate-sounding language. The result is that journalists get used as transmitters for anti-HSR talking points that are full of inaccuracies and distortions, because the journalist in question is either too unfamiliar with HSR to know any better, or too lazy to fact-check what these people are telling them.

We’ve seen a lot of these stories over the last two years, and unfortunately we’ll see many more. But it’s especially sad when a new news venture launches with a flawed story full of misleading HSR denialism as one of their feature stories.

That’s what’s happened with the Voice of Orange County, a new online news operation put together by veterans of the Orange County Register and the LA Times. As an Orange County native, I’m very excited to see such a journalistic effort be launched – and therefore am very disappointed to see their efforts sullied by a deeply, deeply flawed attack on HSR by Tracy Wood.

Wood is no journalistic slouch. According to her bio on the site:

Tracy Wood is a former foreign correspondent in Asia and a California investigative reporter and editor. As a reporter for United Press International, she was one of the few women assigned as a combat correspondent during the Vietnam War.

She joined the Los Angeles Times in California where she was an investigative reporter for 17 years, covering political and government corruption. Later she became the Orange County Register’s Investigations Editor, leading the paper’s investigations team when it broke the story of former Orange County Sheriff Michael S. Carona’s ties to Nationwide Auction Systems founder and former Assistant Sheriff Donald G. Haidl.

As anyone familiar with OC politics knows, that story was particularly explosive. Sheriff Carona was seen at the time as “America’s Sheriff,” an up-and-coming media star and politically untouchable. But when the media broke the story of Carona’s misdeeds with his associate Haidl, it eventually led to the destruction of Carona’s career.

Unfortunately, instead of using those skills to provide a well-researched and informative look at the HSR project, Wood appears to have instead accepted without question the arguments of HSR deniers, in an article headlined “High Speed Rail Veers Off Track”:

California’s proposed $42 billion high-speed rail line, which is supposed to whip millions of passengers up and down the state at up to 220-miles-an hour, is so poorly thought-out at this point that even supporters say the plans might have to be completely overhauled.

“The (ridership and construction cost) numbers keep changing,” complained Sen. Alan Lowenthal, chair of the state Senate’s Transportation and Housing Committee. “I want to see real numbers.”

I am personally unconvinced Senator Lowenthal is an HSR supporter. He claims to be one, but in practice he has had nothing but criticism for the project, much of it unfair. Here he is embracing HSR denier terms. The ridership numbers haven’t changed since 2007, and the cost numbers haven’t really changed either – what did change was the year in which the costs are being priced. The 2008 cost estimate was in 2008 dollars. The 2009 estimate was in year of expenditure dollars, as mandated by the federal government. The “increase” was merely a shift in estimate based on anticipated inflation over the next 10 years. It’s not a sign that project costs have soared.

The Long Beach democrat, a supporter of high-speed rail, is among an increasing number of policymakers and experts who are worried that voters who approved the 2008 high-speed rail ballot initiative are becoming victims of a classic bait and switch.

“If history is any guide, rail projects have drastically over-estimated the ridership and drastically underestimated the cost,” said Eric Morris, a doctoral researcher in urban planning at UCLA and a supporter of passenger rail transit.

This is simply false, but has also gone almost totally unchallenged by Wood. The Metro Gold Line East Extension opened on-time and under budget. The Phoenix light rail line exceeded ridership projections by 33% – and that’s in America’s sprawl capital. The Seattle light rail line was also built on-budget.

As to ridership, this is where, once again, California journalists fail to consider global HSR success. For some reason, they never ask “do other HSR systems meet ridership goals?” The answer is unfailingly yes, even if it typically takes about 5 years or so for the ridership goals to be met. Sometimes it happens sooner.

But you’d know none of this from reading Wood’s article. She merely quotes so-called “experts” as if they are speaking truth, instead of fact-checking what she has been told.

Among the things that make Lowenthal and others uneasy is a current business plan that estimates almost one-third of the expected 41 million annual riders will stay within the Los Angeles basin or in the San Francisco Bay area. And one that appears to compete with existing lines for fares.

In short, this indicates that 1/3 of the riders will be commuters of some sort. Is that such a crazy expectation? If service between San Francisco and San Jose takes just 30 minutes, or service between LA and Anaheim takes just 20 minutes, that would beat all other transportation options. It stands to reason that people would indeed choose the fastest option for intraregional travel.

As to “competing with existing lines,” that seems a fundamental misreading of the situation. If one’s travel plan is downtown LA to ARTIC, then sure, you’d take HSR over a Metrolink or Amtrak train that makes more intermediate stops. But if your travel plan is downtown LA to Fullerton, or downtown LA to San Clemente, or Santa Ana to San Bernardino, or Van Nuys to San Gabriel, well, you wouldn’t take HSR. HSR would handle certain point-to-point service, but would enable Metrolink, Caltrain, and Amtrak to beef up service for other routes and other destinations. Plus, as Wood doesn’t mention at all, HSR investment helps those other rail lines get improved infrastructure to enable their own faster speeds, boosting their ridership and farebox recovery.

They also must deal with the rail line’s impact on local communities (like Buena Park), the accuracy of financial estimates and the need for a professional staff accountable to state taxpayers rather than teams of temporary consultants.

There are also questions about the rail authority’s qualifications to oversee the high-speed train system. One alternate proposal would replace the current rail authority with a state agency to oversee and coordinate all passenger rail issues.

It’s true that the CHSRA has to deal with these things. But that doesn’t mean, as Wood clearly implies, that all these charges are valid. The CHSRA does need to have more staff, but that also means they need more reliable funding – something Senator Lowenthal has not supported.

Wood continues her bias toward quoting HSR deniers:

And GOP Assemblywoman Diane Harkey of Dana Point has introduced a bill that would stop the train altogether.

“While high speed rail may benefit certain areas of the state, the lack of specifics as to cost, subsidies, financing, and ridership, added to the state of the state’s finances, should cause the Legislature to reconsider its overall value to the people of the state of California,” said her staff summary of her bill blocking construction of the rail system. “Public resources might be better spent on a steady supply of water, roads, prisons and schools.”

What is never mentioned anywhere in Wood’s article, however, is that all HSR projects cover their operating costs through fares. None needs an ongoing operating subsidy, including Amtrak’s Acela. Readers don’t know that based on Wood’s article, however, and Asm. Harkey’s claims stand unchallenged.

Also unchallenged are the vague and unsourced claims of passenger rail critics:

Experts like UCLA’s Morris talk like they’re watching the first act of a play they’ve seen over and over. Overblown ridership estimates, he said, sometimes were intentional ploys. But in other instances, they were the result of an “optimism bias…an honest misreading of things because you’re excited about things and you think it might work.”

Prof. Eric Heikkila of USC’s School of Policy, Planning and Development, another passenger rail supporter, sounds a similar warning. “It seems that for rail projects around the country before the fact,” he said, projections “have been, in many cases, wildly optimistic.”

This is where a Wikipedia citation needed tag would be useful. Where is Morris’s evidence that the California HSR project’s estimates are flawed or deliberately overstated? As Wood should know, you don’t just report claims like that which lack supporting evidence. She wouldn’t have let Sheriff Carona get away with it, but she lets this doctoral researcher do it because it suits her overall argument? Other questions and assertions are left unchallenged – which rail projects were wildly optimistic? As I showed, in Phoenix (just one example of many) the ridership estimates weren’t accurate because they were too low.

Lacking knowledge and expertise in HSR – and unwilling to seek out such knowledge to judge what she reads – Wood winds up totally misinterpreting the Taiwan HSR experience:

A Senate Transportation Committee staff analysis noted Taiwan financed and constructed a $19 billion, 208-mile high-speed rail line using private resources.

The private company was supposed to operate the rail line for 35 years and then turn it over to the government. Service began in 2007, according to the staff report, and by 2009 had only 87,000 riders a day when ridership forecasts had predicted 280,000.

In the end, the government had to bail it out financially, exactly what voters were promised won’t happen in California.

The Taiwan experience, the Senate staff report said, “suggests that an overly optimistic original forecast was made.”

Wood regurgitates a State Senate staff report without challenging it or its assumptions. The truth about the Taiwan HSR project is that a series of flawed decisions made during the design and construction phase, largely to please politically connected friends of the government, led to cost overruns that in turn forced the system to open without full buildout. Although the trains were showing steady ridership growth year over year and had grabbed a majority market share away from planes and buses, the underlying finances of the system fell apart.

But not because HSR is inherently flawed. Instead the problem was that the specific way the Taiwan HSR project was funded was flawed. Yonah Freemark explained it well at the Transport Politic last September:

The Taiwanese system, which cost more than $15 billion, was the first in the world built entirely with private funds — 80% of which were secured through bank loans at high interest rates. Though the line’s fare revenues, lower than projected, make up for operations, maintenance, and even most interest payments on the initial capital costs, elevated depreciation charges put the railroad into its misery. The recession, which decreased interest in travel, put the final stake in the company’s heart.

The problem in Taiwan was that the project was overleveraged and overindebted, and when ridership was not high enough to meet the staggering debt service levels, a bailout was forced. What the Taiwan experience suggests is not that HSR is doomed to fail, or even that private funding of HSR to some extent is always a bad idea. Instead what it shows that that too much private funding is massively risky, but public funding such as that used in Spain or France seems pretty damn reasonable.

Significantly, those successful HSR experiences are never discussed in Wood’s article.

Wood continues with the fear, uncertainty, and doubt-laced article:

But once construction is completed in 2035, planners haven’t figured out how high-speed rail will pay for itself. So far, according to the rail authority’s most recent business plan, the most profitable system appears to rely on about 12 million of the expected 41 million annual riders staying inside the boundaries of the Los Angeles basin or traveling among stops in the San Francisco Bay area.

Again, as mentioned above, this is not implausible. That would still leave well over half the ridership revenue coming from travelers going across the state, between north and south.

Perhaps one reason Wood’s article is so biased toward HSR deniers is that’s almost all she interviews. Wood does not talk to a single HSR supporter that’s not affiliated with state government – I would have happily spoken with her had I been contacted. The only pro-HSR statements come from Curt Pringle (Sen. Lowenthal does have a quote that’s favorable to HSR, but he is not a project supporter). Instead Wood sets up a storyline of “flawed, overpriced, misleading government vs. a few brave critics.” It’s a familiar trope for investigative journalists, and sometimes is true. But in this case, it’s not. Yet you wouldn’t know it from Wood’s article, since she did not take the time to speak to independent project supporters or fact-check the quotes she was given from her sources.

This article isn’t going to make or break HSR. But it is yet another example of why it’s important to combat HSR deniers, since their misinformation tends to find its way into media stories on HSR, written by journalists who don’t understand passenger rail, who won’t look around the world at successful HSR projects, and who apparently can’t be bothered to do those things.

Orange County residents and Californians deserve better. It’s not impossible to get HSR journalism right – but you wouldn’t know it by reading the Voice of OC. And that’s a shame.

  1. Spokker
    Apr 5th, 2010 at 22:14
    #1

    The “compete with existing services” argument is a load of crap from people who have no understanding how the LOSSAN Corridor actually works.

    Between LA and Anaheim Metrolink’s Orange County line comes from Oceanside, Irvine or Laguna Niguel and stops at Anaheim, Fullerton, Buena Park, Norwalk/Santa Fe Springs, Commerce (limited service) and Union Station. The 91 line comes from Riverside and stops in Fullerton, Buena Park, Norwalk/Santa Fe Springs and Union Station. All trains terminate in Union Station. There is very limited connections available to other Metrolink trains. The agency operates rush hour service with very limited off-peak and weekend service.

    Between LA and Anaheim, the Pacific Surfliner is coming from San Diego and stops at Anaheim, Fullerton and Union Station. Some trains continue North to Goleta or San Luis Obispo. It operates throughout the day with relatively evenly spaced service.

    Do these services compete? Not really, they serve different purposes (and complement each other with the Rail 2 Rail program) and so does high speed rail, whether the high speed trains share track or operate on their own expensive tracks. HST’s will originate in Anaheim, stop at one intermediate station and Union Station, then continue on to San Francisco via the Central Valley. Again, it’s an entirely different service.

    Robert Cruickshank Reply:

    Excellent points. And if Tracy Wood is going to be on the HSR beat, which it looks like she will be, she ought to understand exactly how the LOSSAN corridor works.

  2. Spokker
    Apr 5th, 2010 at 22:19
    #2

    They ran a good article here though.

    http://voiceofoc.org/article_795f041c-4130-11df-b418-001cc4c03286.html

    I wish they would have gone into more detail about what the FRA study actually found. If shared trackage means heavier trains, I’d say scrap LA-Anaheim altogether. They should have also mentioned how the Acela got screwed by the FRA. It’s a bank fault on rails.

    Bobierto Reply:

    I agree … I suppose that statutorily this might not be possible, but my feeling is that OC doesn’t appear to want it, and San Diego’s political establishment is all for it. So, scrap the LA-Anaheim link and get moving earlier on LA-SD.

    Peter Reply:

    Slight problem: Prop 1A requires Phase 1 to include LA-ANA.

    Bobierto Reply:

    Yes as I said, there’s a statutory obstacle but apparently the NIMBYs don’t place much store in this, so why can’t I insist on having my way too?!

    Peter Reply:

    Oh, right, forgive me for bringing reason into the HSR debate. ;)

    tomh Reply:

    So why exactly does the federal government (FRA) require such heavy trains? Meanwhile we have HUMMERs and Suburbans sharing the roads with Smart Cars and motorcycyles.

  3. political_incorrectness
    Apr 5th, 2010 at 22:24
    #3

    Someone should do an actual experiment of collision between a crash energy management vehicle versus a fully loaded freight train. See what the results are and show the FRA that we should focus more on prevention.

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    The FRA has done tests.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVpcfZeokUI

    or clickable link to the same video.

    That’s a nicely edited summary. There’s lots of other videos of the FRA’s tests.

  4. Jack
    Apr 5th, 2010 at 23:33
    #4

    Excellent rebuttal article Robert. Let’s hope Tracy swings by an realizes her mistake. Did you contact her for a possible rebuttal interview?

  5. Spokker
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 00:45
    #5

    Here’s the full audio of Leahy’s comments: http://www.thetransitcoalition.us/LargePDFfiles/TC-LOSSAN-13-2010-03-24-BoardAgenda-ArtLeahy-CA-HSR-Comments.mp3

    Spokker Reply:

    I just think Leahy is looking for some coordination between Amtrak, Metrolink and the CHSRA.

    OC Vet Reply:

    Same Art Leahy who spent $65+ million who couldn’t deliver the Orange County’s CenterLine light rail system a few years ago? Same Leahy who was willing to send this redundant streetcar down a narrow and congested arterial that already had a busy bus route and knock out over 100 homes and businesses? Same Leahy who couldn’t avoid a bus strike last year, but raised fares and lost ridership anyway? Same Leahy who’s unfunded dozens of bus routes in Orange County because the transit authority couldn’t manage its budget?

    Spokker Reply:

    The same Art Leahy who actually cared enough about OC’s bus system to invest in it.

    Fares had to be raised and service had to be cut due to the anti-transit climate at the state level. Few transit agency heads are able to avoid service cuts and/or fare hikes right now.

    OC Vet Reply:

    And I forgot — he went $50 million overbudget on the widening of the 22 Freeway.

    Spokker Reply:

    Oh no… :(

  6. Steve Van Beek
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 03:52
    #6

    Robert:

    Your criticisms are right on. This is easy, slap-dash journalism. Rather than just cite examples where HSR and passenger rail does not work, which may or may not be comparable, how about examining the conditions which are necessary for these systems to work and how those conditions exist (or not) with the California system? Admittedly this is more nuanced and complex, but it is also likely to be more accurate. It is easy to cite projects that have met budget and ridership expectations, I guess it is just easier and sexier journalism to cite those that have not to “reveal” a story about California that is not there.

  7. YesonHSR
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 04:34
    #7

    A rebuttal is just is what is needed for todays style of media… Im glad you did

    jimsf Reply:

    This is what ca4hsr should be on top of.

  8. rafael
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 05:28
    #8

    The business case for California HSR requires that express trains make the SF-LA run in well under 3 hours, which implies cruise speeds of around 220 mph in the Central Valley. Without that, the whole project makes no sense.

    The upshot is that California HSR must be based on state-of-the-art, lightweight rolling stock that meets international but not the Federal Railroad Administration’s (FRA) rules on crash safety. The former emphasizes active safety (i.e. expensive grade separations and signaling) to support high volumes of passenger rail traffic, plus some light/medium freight. The latter is based primarily on passive safety (i.e. few but very long trains and cheap signaling) to keep costs down for privately owned and operated networks of super-heavy rail freight, plus a smattering of super-heavy passenger trains that cost (taxpayers) an arm and a leg to own and operate. Note that passive safety is largely ineffective for train-on-train collisions at relative speeds exceeding 10-15mph.

    It’s not exactly a case of never the twain shall meet, but Congress has so far failed to cough up significant funding for its mandate to implement positive train control (PTC, i.e. fancy signaling) on legacy lines that carry significant numbers of passenger trains and/or hazardous cargo. Worse, Congress hasn’t even given FRA the authority to define a single nationwide PTC technology. Nothing drives up signaling cost more than a patchwork of incompatible train control systems – see Europe for details.

    In the absence of adequate private or public funding or even a technology target, FRA’s long-standing “mixed traffic” safety rule is that rolling stock that does not comply with its crash safety rules (e.g. modern HSR trainsets) must not share track with rolling stock that does (e.g. US freight and legacy passenger trains), except when there is “guaranteed time separation”. In practice, the guarantees that FRA requires would reduce line capacity so severely that this exception is pretty much academic. The agency very, very rarely grants waivers for its draconian mixed traffic rule. Note that sharing track is not at all the same thing as sharing right of way.

    Therefore, anyone arguing that CHSRA is off in cloud cockoo land for planning dedicated tracks between LA and Anaheim – or SF and San Jose, for that matter – needs to first acknowledge that their work is constrained by the business case for HSR on the one hand and FRA rules on the other. In addition, the section between Redondo Junction and Fullerton, including the Hobart Yard, is part of BNSF’s Transcon line. This is a vital trade artery for transporting goods between the LA/LB harbors and the interior of the nation. Even though BNSF does its level best to accommodate passenger traffic, the two legacy tracks have finite capacity. OCTA simply could not obtain trackage rights for expanding Metrolink service north of Fullerton.

    My recommendations to those who want to avoid quad tracking in their area:

    (a) lobby CHSRA to fund a headcount so FRA can dedicate a regulator to all things rail in California for a while. This person should be based at CHSRA HQ in Sacramento and share an office with a counterpart from the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC).

    (b) insist that these regulators-on-site be given the authority to lead the definition of a strategy for implementing PTC in the State of California. The transition from passive to active safety is a fundamental requirement for any concept involving heavily mixed traffic.

    (c) identify sections of legacy track where HSR trains could potentially be slowed down and legacy trains sped up sufficiently to permit mixed operation from a capacity perspective – safety is not the only consideration. Mixed traffic is a tall order in the Fullerton-Anaheim(-Irvine) section because passenger and freight rail services are delivered by multiple entities that would need to agree on a single timetable. In addition, CHSRA might have to accept slightly lower ridership and the other services slightly higher operating costs.

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    Nothing drives up signaling cost more than a patchwork of incompatible train control systems – see Europe for details.

    Which is why the Class Is are all busily cooperating with each other to determine a single standard. It’s absolutely horrible, terrible, awful, that the FRA is letting them do that instead of carving a standard on some stone tablets and bringing them down from the mountain top. Get BNSF, CSX, NS and UP to all agree on a standard and the few other Class Is will adopt it. If all the Class Is are using it, the Class IIs and IIs will use where they are required to also. Voila a standard for all of North America….

    Alon Levy Reply:

    Or they can use the standard that DB, SNCF, RENFE, SBB, Network Rail, and Trenitalia have agreed on, which would not require debugging and is passenger train-friendly. American freight railroads have no incentive to choose a PTC implementation that maximizes things passengers care about like speed or reliability.

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    Which one did they select? There’s many different versions ERTMS II, some of them mutually incompatible.

    Alon Levy Reply:

    You mean ETCS? No, that version allows trains to run from one company to another. It’s not like ACSES, which assumes some existing signaling system and would fail otherwise.

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    I mean ERTMS which depends on ETCS and GSM-R and a lot of complex software back at the control centers to become a system that trains can use to direct their movements. They don’t all play well together in all instances.

    What existing signaling system does ACSES use? The legacy digital radio system the New Haven installed or perhaps the legacy PRR balises? Since ACSES wasn’t installed all at once everywhere all on all the trains, ACSES equipped trains can operate in legacy areas using pulse codes and if both systems fail radio and Form D and if the radio is out, telephones.

    Alon Levy Reply:

    Yes, the legacy PRR system… ACSES = ETCS overlay.

    rafael Reply:

    @ adirondacker12800 -

    I’m aware that the class I railroads are trying to avoid a situation that could seriously compromise their operational efficiency. IMHO, this is a good thing and I would want the FRA and CPUC to look carefully to exactly at what they’ve come up with and the logic behind it.

    My beef is more with the various passenger railroads and planning agencies in California. For various reasons, CHSRA, Caltrain and Metrolink, to take just three examples, are pursuing different and mutually incompatible strategies for PTC implementation. This is not in taxpayers’ best interest at any level of government.

    Clem Reply:

    Don’t confuse PTC as narrowly defined and implemented by freight railroads with the broader realm of train control. What the class I’s will come up with will be optimized for freight. Cheap wayside infrastructure, long headways, etc., their requirements have very little to do with high speed, high capacity passenger rail.

    It’s easy to knock ETCS for being half-baked, since until recently it was fresh out of the oven. But as with any complex technology, increased adoption breeds a more stable, seasoned and robust standard. The ETCS of 2020 will be nothing to be mocked.

    rafael Reply:

    @ Clem -

    afaik, the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) comprises the European Train Control System (ETCS, one of several technologies for implementing PTC functionality) plus GSM-R (a robust communications infrastructure based on dedicated terrestrial wireless telephony) plus other technologies.

    However, the US rail industry is so many decades behind the rest of the world that I figured a narrow focus on PTC alone might be more productive as a first step.

  9. TomW
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 07:56
    #9

    Whenever I see the phrase “experts say” in a newspaper article, it makes instantly distrust that article. It’s sloppy journalism (even Wikipedia doesn’t allow it.) If the writer has a reliable source, they should use it (as in “expert person John Smith, professor of stuff at Respected University says that…”).

  10. Alon Levy
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 08:03
    #10

    In some cases, “Experts say” or “expert consensus is” is better form than quoting just one or two experts. But those cases require arguing why this is expert consensus. For example, “X% of members of professional society Y surveyed agree” or “X% of peer-reviewed studies conclude,” could be a better introduction, as long as there’s a reference to a reliable survey or metastudy, and as long as X is very large (say, more than 90). For lower values of X, one might want quotes from opposing experts giving their sides’ basic gist, though it’s still useful to show whether there’s expert consensus on the subject or two equally matched sides.

  11. Peter
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 09:17
    #11

    Robert, are you writing her a letter to clear up her misconceptions?

  12. Richard Mlynarik
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 09:28
    #12

    Misinformation, eh?

    You mean, like the systematically fraudulent ridership “estimates” that PBQD always, without fail, produces in order to justify billions or tens of billions of dollars of public-to-private wealth transfer, and for which shills like Quentin Kopp always, without fail, do the political fronting?

    Ignore history! Ignore the parties involved! Ignore that man behind the curtain!
    All trains infinitely good all the time! Bad experts wrong! Good experts right!

    There’s a great HSR project possible in California. But not one based on fraud and undertaken purely for the enrichment of the people designing and building it.

    Yeah I know. Anybody who gives a damn about the people who pay for or ride on or live near the PB Flight Level Zero Airline wonder choo choo are NIMBYs, DENIALISTs, BANANAs, MISREPRESENTATIONISTs, and other bad, bad words.

    Peter Reply:

    Proof, Richard, proof.

    Richard Mlynarik Reply:

    Yeah, it’s all just a GIANT COINCIDENCE that every PB/Bechtel promoted rail project comes in at several times the “budget” and a fraction of the “ridership” used to eliminate “alternatives”. There isn’t a single historical exception that you or anybody else can cite … except this time for sure, HSR will be different! Trust us! It will never happen again! Because, like, trains are kewl!

    OC Vet Reply:

    Great reply. Hey Peter, the proof’s here: http://reason.org/news/show/1003044.html, but of course these smart folks would be NIMBYs, deniers, bananas and misrepresenters. This thing’s got as much chance of being built as Obama has of being re-elected.

    Peter Reply:

    http://www.cahsrblog.com/2008/09/truth-vs-truthiness-on-prop-1a/

    See my rebuttal to your “proof” above.

    Trotting out the Reason Foundation does not do anything to improve your credibility in my book.

    Andrew Reply:

    Obama has a pretty damn good chance of being re-elected, so that must fare well for CHSR.

    jimsf Reply:

    The reason foundation has no credibility. The are a right wing think tank. What they call “reason” is part of the “call it the opposite of what it is and weak and gullible people will fall for it: philosophy. They exist for the sole purpose of spreading misinformation in order to support dismantling government regulation, consumer protections, labor laws, and so forth. Their goal is to save the wealthy from having to take any responsibility for the collateral damage create by the generation of their wealth. If it were up to me they’d be hog tied, shot in the head, dipped in cement, and dropped into the bay. Their method of cloaking their dogma in a so called “reasonable” argument is nothing but the work of the devil.

    tomh Reply:

    A) I’m going to take anything backed by the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association with a major grain of salt. Remember, we have to thank these people with for Prop 13.

    B) About as much chance of Obama being re-elected? In the world of politics, November 2012 is a LONG time. Given that time frame, the only sure thing in politics is that nothing is sure.

    C) I wonder how those projections would look if drivers paid tolls (or fares if you will) via open tolls to use our highways, so they realize the true cost of driving up front.

    Peter Reply:

    Or the Citizens Against Government Waste, aka Citizens Against Any Taxes Being Collected And Then Used For Anything.

    YesonHSR Reply:

    That the same thing Rebubs said about Clinton..you will see HSR and a second term.. We but Bush2 in office again.

    jimsf Reply:

    Plus there’s that whole thing where you and Han Solo had to rescue Princess Lea from the Darth Vader controlled PBQD evil empire. At which time we found out that Darth Vader was indeed actully Quentin Kopp all along. No wonder!

  13. jimsf
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 11:09
    #13

    Off topic but concerning PTC there is no link for this so forgive me for posting it verbatim. Note they will be working towards interoperability nationwide. this is good news yes?

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ATK-10-040 April 5, 2010 Contact: Media Relations 202 906.3860
    AMTRAK POSITIVE TRAIN CONTROL ON THE FAST TRACK Will expand safety technology on Amtrak-owned tracks three years ahead of federal deadline
    WASHINGTON – Amtrak is moving ahead aggressively to expand and build out its existing and proven train collision prevention safety technology—commonly known as Positive Train Control (PTC)—to cover all of the tracks it owns along the Northeast Corridor (NEC) and on its Michigan Line by the end of 2012, three years ahead of a federal deadline.
    “Amtrak has long been a leader in the development and operation of PTC safety technology and we are extending it to cover all of the tracks we own,” said President and CEO Joseph Boardman, noting federal law requires PTC on most tracks where passenger trains operate by the end of 2015.
    PTC technology can control train movements to prevent train-to-train collisions, derailments caused by excessive speed and certain human-caused incidents such as misaligned track switches. It can also protect roadway workers by slowing or stopping trains from entering work zones.
    To accomplish the self-imposed and accelerated timeline, Boardman said America’s passenger railroad is moving forward on a number of fronts. Amtrak will submit a PTC Implementation Plan to the Federal Railroad Administration by April 16 as required by law, is now designing the build out of its existing PTC system along the NEC, and will begin to expand the PTC system on all of its Michigan Line in 2010. In addition, Amtrak has established a new Deputy Chief Engineer position responsible for PTC implementation and other special projects.
    Amtrak also is working with freight and commuter railroads that operate on Amtrak- owned tracks as well as with the host railroads on whose tracks Amtrak trains operate to ensure PTC systems being deployed across the country are interoperable. Interoperability is essential to maintain safety as freight and passenger trains pass from one PTC system to another.
    -more-
    A TK-10-040
    Boardman explained Amtrak presently has two PTC systems that have been successfully operated for years. The Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System (ACSES) is installed on many sections of track along the NEC between Washington, D.C. and Boston and will be built out so all remaining Amtrak-owned sections are equipped with it. Also, Amtrak is working with its partners that own other portions of the NEC to assist them with their PTC plans so they are compatible with ACSES.
    The Incremental Train Control System (ITCS) is currently installed on most of the Amtrak-owned Michigan Line between Kalamazoo, Mich., and Porter, Ind. In 2010, ITCS will be installed on the last two remaining sections of track located on the western and eastern ends of the line between New Buffalo, Mich., and Porter, Ind., and between Oshtemo and Kalamazoo.
    About Amtrak
    As the nation’s intercity passenger rail operator, Amtrak connects America in safer, greener and healthier ways. Last fiscal year (FY 2009), the railroad carried 27.2 million passengers, making it the second-best year in the company’s history. With 21,000 route miles in 46 states, the District of Columbia and three Canadian provinces, Amtrak operates more than 300 trains each day—at speeds up to 150 mph (241 kph)—to more than 500 destinations. Amtrak also is the partner of choice for state-supported corridor services in 15 states and for several commuter rail agencies. Visit Amtrak.com or call 800-USA-RAIL for schedules, fares and more information.

    ## #

    Clem Reply:

    How is this news? Amtrak already operates two PTC technologies and is simply saying they will expand their use. In the meantime, neither will be suitable for HSR, much less shared corridors where HSR and commuter rail are mixed. The ultimate solution, once the not-invented-here syndrome runs its course, is likely to be ERTMS Level 2, the PTC system that California HSR is already planning to use.

    jimsf Reply:

    Its good news because they will work with host railroads nationwide to make sure things are compatible that’s all. I didn’t say it had anything to do with ca hsr. Thus the “off topic but” notation. Perhaps you missed that. i think that Amtrak working closely with the frieght railroads nationwide to implement ptc per the new requirements is a good thing, as oppose to america’s various railroads not cooperating. Its railroad news, if not hsr news.

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    Everything east of New Haven uses ACSES. ACSES has all the functionality of ERTMS 2. Acela, for all it’s fault’s, is a high speed train. It shares rail with commuter trains and freight trains east of New Haven. They are going to be filling in the gaps, the few that are left, between New Haven and Washington DC.

    Clem Reply:

    ACSES has all the functionality of ERTMS 2

    Either you have no clue about ACSES, or you have no clue about ERTMS. Either way, there is simply no comparison to be made between the two.

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    Or you have no clue. ACSES does everything ERTMS II does. Probably wouldn’t want to deploy it in a new installation because the hardware is begining to show it’s age but it has all of the functionality of ERTMS II. Achieves in more or less the same way too.

    Clem Reply:

    Sorry, didn’t mean to lay into you like that. I very much doubt what you are saying, how’s that?

    adirondacker12800 Reply:

    Feel free to google Amtrak Civil Speed Enforcement System and see how with a combination of digital radio and balises the train is in constant communication with the control center so that the control center can continually update it’s movement authorities etc. Just like ERTMS. Including old fangled Providence and Worchester fright trains. creaky old MBTA diesel locomotives, MTA M8s, all of NJ Transit’s equipment, lots of SEPTA’s and all of MARC’s, Amtrak’s AEM7s and HHP8s and Acela.

    Andre Peretti Reply:

    Are you sure those foreigners won’t insert a few lines in the ERTMS code that will enable them to control American trains from Paris or Brussels?

    Richard Mlynarik Reply:

    If the US is ever finds itself at war with Argentina (Lionel Messi WMD) I think we can be sure the cheese eating Belgian surrender monkeys will find it in their interests to reveal the ETCS launch codes.

    jimsf Reply:

    I propose we replace the republican party with the french since the former are useless and at least we’d eat better and reduce our risk of heart disease.

  14. tomh
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 14:35
    #14

    Right from the start Tracy Wood’s article runs into a problem:

    “California’s proposed $42 billion high-speed rail line, which is supposed to whip millions of passengers up and down the state at up to 220-miles-an hour, is so poorly thought-out at this point that even supporters say the plans might have to be completely overhauled.”

    She didn’t even bother to quote anyone or directly attribute her “is so poorly thought-out at this point” statement to any specific person or group. She wrote it as a statement of fact. I wouldn’t call her a very good journalist at all.

  15. tomh
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 14:37
    #15

    Maybe if she had instead said: “that even supporters say is so poorly thought-out at this point that the plans might have to be completely overhauled.” But even then that still implies that ALL supporters believe that statement.

  16. AndyDuncan
    Apr 6th, 2010 at 16:59
    #16

    Off topic: Spirit Airline to begin charging $45 for carry-on luggage. I really hope that doesn’t catch on.

    Ryanair, of course, is considering eliminating checked baggage altogether: “Mr. McNamara said the airline had as a goal nothing less than changing passenger behavior. ‘People are packing way too much; women bringing four pairs of shoes, hair dryers, that sort of thing.’”

    Ryanair would be so much more profitable if they didn’t have to deal with all those fucking customers.

    Bianca Reply:

    Airport security would be so much simpler too.

    Peter Reply:

    Maybe they should just start flying passengers in crates, that way they wouldn’t even need chairs.

    AndyDuncan Reply:

    They’re working on it.

    Alon Levy Reply:

    Ryanair is doing a lot of stunts to get free publicity. Complaining about the company’s ideas is the commercial equivalent of feeding an internet troll.

    Andre Peretti Reply:

    Ryanair’s CEO O’Leary plans to charge passengers for using the toilets. He says the current system has all passengers pay for a service few of them actually use. Thus, he says, charging those few is only fair, and will lower fares for the majority.
    O’Leary is a genius.

  17. jimsf
    Apr 7th, 2010 at 00:22
    #17

    The airlines seem to be taking a page out of the republican party play book these days, on how to destroy themselves from within. And as with the reps, I hope they keep it up. we are gladly accepting their passengers every day now.

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