DesertXpress On Track To Break Ground This Year
According to a recent Las Vegas Sun article, the DesertXpress high speed rail project between Victorville and Las Vegas is on couse to begin construction in 2010:
Last year, developers of the 185-mile rail line that would link Las Vegas with Victorville, Calif., said they hoped they would get final environmental approvals by the end of the first quarter of 2010 and that they would be able to break ground by summer. But Stone said the process is running three to four months behind what they had hoped, although they still expect a groundbreaking before the end of the year.
Construction is expected to take four years, meaning that revenue service for the train could begin by late 2014.
Some items remain to be finalized, including the exact location of the Victorville station. It will be near I-15 and have a massive parking garage – but will also be designed to easily extend the tracks west through the Antelope Valley desert to Palmdale and link to the California HSR project:
The model of the Victorville train station includes a 15,000-space parking area, some of it surface parking and some of it within a parking garage. It’s 1 1/2 times larger than Disneyland’s parking lot.
Despite mountains of public criticism, Victorville was chosen as DesertXpress’ southern terminus — until the connection to the California line is completed — because most Southern California highway traffic must pass through Victorville to get to Las Vegas.
DesertXpress Vice President Andrew Mack said the company is placing an emphasis on the Las Vegas experience starting in Victorville, so parking at the station would be free, just as it would be in Las Vegas, and passengers will be able to check their bags all the way through to their Las Vegas hotels at no additional cost.
Free parking likely would entice a lot of travelers, assuming the Las Vegas station is located conveniently near the Strip (otherwise HSR is going to be a HUGE boon to taxi companies). In any case, I’ve never doubted DesertXpress’s claim that a lot of people will park in Victorville and take the train all the way to Vegas. All it’ll take is sitting in the hot car on I-15 stuck in traffic some holiday weekend and watching the bullet train zoom past for most travelers to vow “next time I’m taking the train.”
DesertXpress is also confident that the link to Palmdale will be expedited and that their trains will be able to go all the way to Union Station in LA:
While work hasn’t begun on the 50-mile line between Victorville and Palmdale, Stone said he has received assurances from transportation planners in Southern California that the link would be fast-tracked to enable a direct line between Las Vegas and Los Angeles. Because the California system and DesertXpress would be compatible, Stone said it would be possible for riders to board in Los Angeles and travel without changing trains all the way to Las Vegas. The trip would take between two and 2 1/2 hours, he said.
That compatibility is going to have to be produced, and not assumed. Will California HSR and DesertXpress use the same trainsets? Same gauges? Same voltage overhead catenaries? I certainly hope there is some amount of coordination already happening between the CHSRA and DesertXpress on some of these questions so that the two systems are fully compatible from construction to operation, instead of discovered to be incompatible in one form or another once it’s too late.
Still, it is very good news to see that DesertXpress is on track to break ground this year. American Magline Group and maglev supporters might not be happy, but steel-wheel HSR and DesertXpress are clearly the right way to build high speed passenger train service between Southern California and Las Vegas.
This is great news. I have friends who go to Vegas all the time, from SF, from LA and everywhere in between, and many of them (even those who don’t read much news) are really excited by the prospect of taking the train to Vegas. It doesn’t hurt that weekend flights to Vegas are crazy expensive, like $300-400 roundtrip for a 45 min flight.
Walter Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
Any word on what DX intends to charge for a ticket? Their website says $50 each way was the “mid-point” of the fares they studied but is quite vague about the possibility of cheaper or steeper fares.
Also, I can’t help but think that if DX is successful and the high desert connection can be built, there will be a noticeable impact on the priorities of CAHSR segments. Suddenly, the Palmdale-LA, LA-Anaheim and LA-SD segments become a lot more valuable. If anything, (much to the chagrin of Grapeviners) there will be a large focus on getting people to Palmdale.
Matthew Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Assuming that Desertxpress actually is built according to plan, this seems to speak for prioritizing the LAUS to Palmdale segment. One could then have revenue service relatively early on. It could be built for a fraction of the cost of the full LA-SF route, and help to build popular support to finish the system.
I’ll be honest. I had no idea DesertXpress was this far along. Just plain awesome! Having up and running HSR between Palmdale and Vegas sooner rather than later could really get people excited about the prospects for the rest of the California system. Palmdale looks to be an important station in the future; for us NorCal folks as a transfer station. I don’t thing we’d have SF-LV service, would we? I know a flight from the Bay Area takes roughly 1 hour for (as Evan stated) $3-400 RT, but if I could take a train, transfer at Palmdale, and be on The Strip in about 3 hours, I’M THERE!
Dave Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
I think that if DesertXpress could run trains from LAUS to LV non-stop then SF-LV would and probably will be possible. Either the operator of the Ca system will pay DX for use of it’s corridor or DX will pay the operator of the Ca system to use the route all the way from SF to LV. It will be done if compatible. You can also expect SAC-LV, SD-LV, ANH-LV, etc.
How much variation is there in steel wheel HSR? It appears that in Europe ICE trains can go all the way from Germany, through France or Belgium, into the Channel Tunnel and in the UK to London (they’re in talks to arrange that). That is several different systems. Granted all of these are European systems so of course they hope for an integrated overall system.. I’m curious if Japanese and European technologies are compatible. All major HSR systems use standard gauge, and both the Japanese and the French (and the French are compatible with the rest of Europe) use 25 kV catenary systems so I don’t think there will be an issue with the tracks. Maybe signalling could be a problem.
Matthew Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:58 am
Track specifications were different between countries. They had to invest a very large amount of money to begin direct service from Stuttgart to Paris, and Frankfurt to Paris. They might have modified the trains slightly, too. It took several years of engineering work. The Thalys has been going to Koeln for longer, but no further due to track incompatibility, and the tracks aren’t very fast between Koeln and Brussels, resulting in ridiculously slow service given the capabilities of the train. It was on top of these track improvements between Paris and Strasbourg that the TGV broke the speed records using a modified train set.
Andre Peretti Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 4:38 am
Taiwan HSR was designed by Europeans (notably SNCF and Systra) and Japanese trains seem to have no problems with it.
In Europe, technical incompatibility is often another name for ill will. There is an issue with the ICE’s magnetic braking (using eddy currents, a bit like roller coasters). It submits switches to strong vertical forces. The EU has made it mandatory that all tracks be adapted to it. This will give DB access to all HSR tracks in Europe and the SNCF is in no hurry to see ICE trains competing with its own. So, although the modification is a minor one, it seems to take ages.
Another example of “technical impossiblity”:
Air France wanted to rent whole cars in some TGVs, and have them repainted in its own livery. The SNCF’s answer: technically impossible.
To quote James Brown, “Please, please, please” all you Palmdale-Tehachapis true believers please buy stock in the Deserted Express.
Joey Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Is there anyone besides you and Tolmach who is still thinking about the Grapevine?
EJ Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Why are you feeding the troll?
Stone, the DX’s guru, was also the guy behind the Las Vegas Monorail. The monorail just declared bankruptcy, but it will have had more success than this silly train that stops short of where it should. Does anyone honestly believe the private funding will appear for this pipe dream?
Prediction: like the CHRSA, no way this will ever get built.
Same voltage overhead catenaries?
It was a critical decision in 1935. Not so much in 2015. NJTransit, NJtransit mind you, runs multi voltage locomotives that can operate on 25Hz or 60Hz all in one trip. Rumor has it SEPTA’s new Silverliners will be able to also, though I haven’t been able to confirm that with an authoritative source or find out if will be done “on the fly” or if the train will have to go to the maintenance yard to do it. . . SEPTA. . .
They would have to try really really really hard and be really really really stupid to pick anything other than 60Hz. If they pick something other than 25kV, I suppose a case could be made for 50kV, it’s a relatively cheap and relatively simple to have the transformer setup to serve both voltages.
It says they are going to use standard gauge on their website. “And because the system will use non-proprietary, high quality, standard gauge steel rail technology…..”
EJ Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
No, I’m pretty sure they’re going to go German stylee with 16 2/3 Hz, 15 kV overhead, cause the Germans make good stuff, right? *tosses inferior vegetable chopper into the sink*
Of course they’re going to go with 25 kV, 60 Hz – you can’t buy power in the western US that’s not 60 Hz, and I doubt they want to build their own power plants.
What’s more interesting, if desert xpress isn’t vaporware, which I still have a huge suspicion it is, but if it’s not, their choice of rolling stock may well have a significant influence on the stock CHSRA eventually adopts.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Yes! If they use a frequency that low they can use DC traction motors! Unlike most other passenger operators who have moved to three phase motors connected to a sophisticated power control system that does bizarre things like convert the incoming AC, whatever it is, to DC and then back to variable frequency and voltage three phase AC. . . That way they could use the LA subway instead of the HSR line to get to LAUS, just hang some third rail shoes off the cars. . . Where’s Rapheal, I’m sure he has even more good ideas like the above….
EJ Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
Unfortunately, the LA subway is standard gauge, so no gauge changing going on… But, if Desert Xpress is built to Irish broad gauge (for luck, it’s going to Vegas after all), think of the fun we could have!
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:45 pm
Talgo has trains that can use standard gauge and Iberian Gauge. I’d have to look up if Iberian is different than Irish… isn’t it the same as Indian too? ….. Hey if they had gauge changing trains they could use BART tracks to get to Oakland and San Francisco! It be a lot slower than the Caltrain ROW but it would be on BART tracks!
Sigh. Unfortunately I actually spent 90 or 100 seconds reading the website that was linked to in the main post here. Standard guage… off the shelf…. proven technology…. Don”t they realize that California is special or that it’s no fun to sit around and contemplate things like proven off the shelf technology that’s wide used elsewhere running standard gauge tracks?
EJ Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Oh Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, don’t you know your Irish gauge, me lad? Five foot three. Not Five foot Six or Five foot five and 2/3 like the Indians and Spaniards.
But what happens once we get to San Francisco and want to run it up the cable car lines? We’ll have to ask the Japanese about 42 inch gauge then.
EJ Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
For serious, though, again assuming Desert Xpress actually breaks ground when they say they will (which I still think is a HUGE if, regardless of what their backers claim), it’s going to be interesting to see what rolling stock they go with – and whatever choice they make is going to be a big influence on CHSRA, or at least it should be.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Land is cheap in Victorville. The part about checking your baggage through to your hotel room implies that passengers boarding in Victorville will be boarding a train that has a relatively long dwell time. Since land is cheap in Victorville putting in two bypass tracks for the trains to/from the rest of the high speed system shouldn’t be much of a problem. If they are bypassing Victorville it doesn’t matter much what the platform height or loading gauge is. The bypass tracks can be built to accommodate CAHSR trains… that will be expressing through the station anyway.
There’s a thriving market in used railroad equipment. Lets just say they make an unfortunte decision about platform height. Trains are relatively cheap, they could sell them off and buy
things that are compatible with HSR when HSR is complete to LA or SF.
For that matter platforms are relatively cheap. If they make an unfortunate decision, rip them out and build ones that are compatible with CAHSR.
EJ Reply:
March 27th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Sure, there’s a big market for used railroad equipment (though not sure how much that applies to HSR) – but if you’ve sold off your equipment, you’ve still got to get the funds to replace it.
DX has expressed an intent to go with off-the-shelf, proven equipment, so if they go with AGV, Velaro, Talgo 350, or what have you, it seems that if CHSRA decides to go with something different, this will inevitably put the burden of proof on them if they want to go with a system that’s incompatible with Desert Xpress.
BruceMcF Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
But if the Desert Xpress is a two station system, and the junction Mojave / junction Barstow corridor joins the Desert Xpress corridor west of Victorville, then its a matter of having both HSR and Desert Xpress height and centerline separation platforms at Las Vegas.
I do not see how building a dedicated HSR terminal platform at Las Vegas would be a problem.
So as long as the CHSRA has published the vertical envelope, electrical specification (which will be 60Hz 25kV), and track specifications by the time that Desert Xpress begins building, the “adaptation to different rolling stock” is that they build the HSR platform for the HSR rolling stock. That’s it.
While Desert Express might start building this year, CA’s high speed rail is going to have a big month. Specifically, the agenda for the April Board meeting has been posted. Four agenda items are worth noting. One: the SF-SJ alternatives report. Two: the Merced-Fresno alternatives report. Three: a high speed rail waiver concerning the design of the SF Transbay Terminal – a topic of continuous discussion. Four: the addendum to the business plan. Does anyone know any information on these topics that they can or are willing to share with everyone else?
Where is the Las Vegas station going to be?
Will there be a cross platform transfer to Las Vegas Monorail?
To me it would be insane to have the two system separated by a few blocks.
With a direct Desert Express connection I think the Las Vegas Monorail could potentially be fiscally viable without ever going to the Airport.
Would Desert Express extend to an existing Las Vegas Monorail station?
Or would Desert Express fund a Las Vegas Monorail extension to the Desert Express station?
Joey Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
I think a cross-platform between an intercity and a small local system is a little too much to ask for. That being said, I think the monorail should be extended into the HSR terminal, with both trains being accessible from the same mezzanine.
“Las Vegas experience”? I think he means open containers of alcohol, loud music, and plenty of advertising and free tickets. I’m not sure HSR’s California operator would want to gamble (no pun intended) with its customer base statewide like that. I mean, if you were headed from San Francisco to Fresno on a Friday afternoon would you really want to have to deal with the crowd of people on a train who were going straight on potential to Vegas? And on the SD-LA-LV route would it be any different for Friday afternoon trains, I think not.
Plus, getting to Victorville isn’t a cakewalk unless you are leaving at 10am on Thursday from the LA Basin. If you are going to be in your car for two hours, why would you get out and then unload your stuff so that you could ride into Vegas in the same amount of time you will take to drive?
I seem to recall originally DesertXpress was going to terminate in Ontario. If it eventually ends up codeshare or actually disembarking at LAUS that’s going to really put a lot of pressure on the alignment that heads east to Riverside and down to San Diego. Even though the NIMBYs are strong in Orange County….a DX that interchanges at Palmdale effectively ends the need for HSR in San Bernardino County….
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 12:51 am
I know that speed limits out West are higher in places than they are back East… the speed limit on I-15 is 150?
Risenmessiah Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Very funny. Even if the Desert Express travels that fast, it still has to board the passengers. With luggage check ins and high volumes that could add an hour to the travel time and that’s assuming no delays and that people can get there close to depature time. But that’s not generally what happens. After 3pm on a Friday in Los Angeles it could take you longer to get to Victorville than from there to Las Vegas. So if you already packed your stuff hours ago do you really want an hour detour before the train leaves when you can drive the last two/three hours and park right outside your hotel whereas the train is still going to require some sort of transition time once in Vegas.
BruceMcF Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
If you did not want to board the Vegas train … wouldn’t you cope with that by the advanced technological system of “not buying tickets for the Vegas train, but buying tickets for one of the regular Anaheim / San Diego trains instead.”
In know that its a highly sophisticated technical solution to that problem, but I have faith that the average Fresno resident can cope with it.
Risenmessiah Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
But that’s not likely to be what happens. If the alignments cross at Palmdale, then on certain days like Friday and Sunday…there will be high demand for the SD-LA-LV routes and the SF-SJ-LV routes. Unless you want to eliminate the SF LA express trains, people stopping more locally are going to have mix with the Vegas crowd…and that could be interesting.
BruceMcF Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
The idea to avoid “having to mix with the Vegas Crowd” would be the “Vegas Crowd” gets on a train that goes to Vegas. Those that do not want to mix with the Vegas crowd get on a train that does NOT go to Vegas, but goes somewhere like Anaheim or San Francisco.
Its not as if the alignments are going to cross over each other with a platform interchange … if the Vegas Desert Xpress corridor connects to the CA-HSR system, it will be via one or more junctions, and people will get on the Vegas train in San Franscisco or LA-US or Fresno.
elfling Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 8:52 am
I presume there will be a slot machine car…
Wikipedia (and elsewhere) suggest that DessertXpress will use a variant of the Swedish Regina trainsets. Probably a good bet: They are roomy and have large doorways to accommodate passengers with luggage. (No people won’t check bags – in HSR it is way more trouble than it is worth for all concerned)
@ Risenmessiah: It is certainly easy enough to have party cars and quiet cars on the same train.
Peter Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 11:25 am
I seem to recall the fact that you would be checking your bags not just to the Las Vegas terminal station, but to your hotel, as well…
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
From the front page of the Desert Express website: The plan is for the “Las Vegas Experience” to start in Victorville with valet service, hotel check-in and through-checking of baggage straight to the resorts.
egk Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Right, that is what they say – and it sure sounds good. But I don’t think it won’t be popular.
I used to take the AirRail in Germany, which provided through checked baggage. But you had to get to the station 40 minutes in advance of your train so that the bag could be checked, had to go first through airport-like check-in and then to the platform. In the end it was way more convenient to skip the check in arrive 10 minutes before the train was to leave, go directly to the platform, and not have to worry if the bags would make the train or get lost or anything.
(I don’t know of any HSR system in the world that is not an airport feeder that deals with checked baggage).
Madam_S Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Agree, egk.
Vegas isn’t summer camp. People don’t take that much baggage. And if you’ve been on any plane in the last 10 years, you know that people would rather keep their stuff with them.
Risenmessiah Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
[Sigh] The only question is if there will be open containers on this train. If there are, then there will be no quiet for anyone taking the “Vegas Train” whether it starts in Victorville or CAHSR integrates it into existing service at some point. There’s nothing wrong with this in my mind.
The issue is that a train to Victorville isn’t a convenience to the majority of Las Vegas bound travellers. Mobility is so terrible in the LA Basin that the whole advantage to the system is to have your buddies head to the nearest light station with your gear, transfer to LAUS and then within three fun hours be at the Strip. Most of the park and rides for LA Metro are currently free.
But something that intricate is probably not going to come from Vegas. Those guys simply aren’t used to raising money for development with that much detail. Wall Street will pour money into this idea because its simple. But in order for it to work, well it’s going to take a lot more participation on the CA side.
Spokker Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Which is why they are talking about a Palmdale Victorville segment so much. Everybody knows the Victorville terminus is a dumb idea. The gamble is that a Palmdale to Victorville segment will be completed someday.
Joey Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
Which is why there is really a case for Barstow-Mojave rather than Barstow-Victorville. I frankly doubt that DX will find enough private investment to open by 2014 anyway. Not in this economy at least…
Spokker Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
In the short term I think it might be productive to run some Metrolink trains to Victorville.
Risenmessiah Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Put down the pipe man, marijuana isn’t (huff) legal yet.
Metrolink isn’t a viable option for Victorville. BSNF isn’t going let commuter rail use the Southern Transcon. That is arguably the most valuable stretch of track in the entire country from them from a freight perspective.
The existing railraod from Palmdale to Cajon Pass…also not going to happen. Metrolink never built anything. They hired a contractor, bought trains and had participating cities build stations. Desert Express is on its own this time.
Joey Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
It makes much more sense as intercity service (though at that point you might as well just continue it all the way to Vegas).
Spokker Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
It wouldn’t be a commuter rail operation. It would be a few trains that would connect with select Desert Express runs.
Matthew Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Still no tracks available. Metrolink can’t operate through the Cajon pass because it’s too heavily used by freight, and there’s no existing connection via Palmdale/Lancaster.
EJ Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
It’s not just a bunch of drunken degenerates that go to Vegas. There’s a lot of business travel – Vegas hosts several major conventions and trade shows almost every week.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
And believe it or not those hotels are staffed by people who live in Las Vegas. They eat, go to the doctor, buy cars and have them fixed sooner or later. The doctors and lawyers, supermarket cashiers, automobile salesman and mechanics do things like go to Target and Walmart. The people who work in Walmart and Target have to have their carpets cleaned and the heating/air condioning serviced now and then……They all buy water and flush it down the drains, Someone has to maintain the water mains and sewer system… there’s a whole city out there in the desert that never goes near a hotel or casino… Last time I checked nearly 2 million of them in metro LV. Some of who will get the urge… I know this may be hard to believe… go to Los Angeles or San Francisco or even Fresno, Bakersfield, San Diego…. Just like the people in Sacramento will occasionally get the urge to go to Anaheim or Merced or…. amazing isn’t it?
EJ Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
It’s been my experience when doing the weekend drive from Vegas that in most cases the major traffic clusterf**k is on precisely the part of the route that desert Xpress doesn’t serve. Many a time I’ve been able to bomb across the desert at 85 mph only to have everything grind to a halt at the Cajon Pass, and stay snarled all the way to LA.
I definitely see DX being a white elephant unless they solve the Cajon Pass connection or the LAUS-Palmdale route is built out in time for them to connect to it.
francis Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Amtrak already sells alcohol and noise has not been a problem. Between the giant American-sized padded seats and the ambient train noise I’ve never had problems with other passengers being loud.
Just a question, why is DesertXpress planning to hook up to CAHSR in Palmdale instead of Ontario? It would seem that Ontario would give an equally good connection to LA, and far better connections to Riverside and San Diego.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Because it’s far easier and cheaper to build HSR tracks to Palmdale than to squeeze through the Cajon Pass, where the best ROW is already used by Interstate 15 and the three-track BNSF transcon line.
Alon Levy Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
In addition, the performance difference between the two routes is quite small. The Mojave route offers a better connection to San Francisco and Sacramento, and the Cajon route offers a better connection to San Diego. If you model ridership based on a gravity model, with cost proportional to distance, then the Cajon route performs about 10% better than the Mojave route. At this difference, you’d go with what’s cheaper to build, especially when the full advantage of the Cajon route could only be realized after CAHSR Phase 2 opened.
Risenmessiah Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
It really makes a ton of sense.
If you are the operator, diverting routes at Mojave/Palmdale solves two major problems.
One, it breaks up the alignment about halfway. Thus, southbound passengers don’t have to backtrack through the LA Basin to go north again, saving a ton of time.
Secondly, there’s revenue considerations. If you backtrack, then many seats might not be filled up either before or after Los Angeles due to thru traffic from the Bay to Vegas. But if the LA to Vegas train is a continuation of north bound traffic from SD, you don’t have that problem. You can sell the train full both ways en route to Vegas, as opposed to cannibalizing some SF to LA revenue or SF to LV or LA to LV revenue instead.
Marcus Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
This small little problem called the “San Bernardino Mountains”.
I would think DX should stop in Primm as well? and I still think barstow should have service. Those poor folks are stuck out there with no connection to the outside world and Im sure many of them have business to do in both vegas and the central and la. There should be stops in barstow and primm.
Joey Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Serviced by what? Two trains per day? I agree that people need service, but stopping HSR doesn’t seem like the way to do it, considering how few of them there are.
Alon Levy Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
Primm is way too small. Barstow makes more sense, but most trains would probably skip it. Even 1 tph might be overkill for a town of its size.
jimsf Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
I thought nevada would have an interest in developing primm further though.
Alon Levy Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
It has an interest in developing it as a relief airport, in case there’s no HSR to Vegas.
But development-oriented transit rarely works as anything other than a loss leader for developer interests.
jimsf Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
or to put it another way, place such as Primm and Boomtown ( outside Reno) depend on the passing traffic, the ” first chance/last chance to donate money” crowd, so Primm will not want people swooshing through at 150 mph with no chance of donating those last few nickels in the bottom of their pockets..
Alon Levy Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Primm wouldn’t want that, but DX would. DX isn’t in the business of developing towns in the desert.
jimsf Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
well you never know. I wouldn’t be surprised if the dx folks are very cozy with the casino folks. No doubt its a fairly tight circle in nevada between the politicians, developers, the dx folks, and the casino folks. If they can find a way to scratch each other’s backs they will. Dx can only gain by having a stop in primm and working out deals with these guys hsr is about bring people to nevada to gamble ( note its desert express not las vegas express) and anyone/casino owners/ who wants to make a deal with dx will. They still do things that way in nevada. I mean I just wouldn’t be at all surprised to see it happen at some point is all.
jimsf Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Primm wouldn’t want that, but DX would. DX isn’t in the business of developing towns in the desert. they may well be, as its in their best interest in the long run.
Walter Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 2:13 am
From what I heard, Vegas is going to build a second airport (even with some air traffic diverted to rail from DX) much closer to the state line in Ivanpah Valley. DX will begin operations (thinking optimistically) in 2014 or 2015, while Ivanpah Valley Airport is scheduled to open in 2017. Unfortunately for Primm, it probably behooves DX to wait put a station at the airport. DX could connect those flying into Ivanpah with the Strip. I’m sure Primm and its casinos would be thrilled to run connecting buses to DX/Ivanpah, but that probably won’t develop the town much.
Alon Levy Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 8:54 am
It’s only in DX’s interests if it owns the Primm casinos. Development-oriented transit makes money for the developers, so that the only players who are interested in it are the developers themselves, as well as the governments that they buy.
Matthew Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 9:48 am
DX is being developed by the owner of Belagio. Presumably this means they won’t consider a stop in Primm unless they build an airport, or unless he also owns a hotel there.
jimsf Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
or to put it another way, DX is a private enterprise, and Primm no doubt will have see the advantage, and those nevada business folks all know each other and will likely want to work out some casino trains/ real estate deals/ and whatever have you.
well they should have the option. if not every train. I don’t like the idea of passing people up when they are there. Too often, people in these “less important” parts of our state are neglected. I’ve seen it going on in the far northern counties for decades. It makes them feel like they don’t matter, and are not part of the state, and thus, out of the fold. Hsr should bring everyone in to the fold, so we can get back the sense of community the state used to have.
Joey Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Sure. Let’s put Stations in Wasco and Chowchilla as well.
jimsf Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
well it takes but a slab of concrete and a ticket machine.
EJ Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Not with HSR, dude! This ain’t Amtrak meandering Old West Style from whistle stop to whistle stop. You’ve got to build bypass tracks so you don’t hold up the express trains, with long deceleration tracks approaching the station – a HSR station is an expensive proposition.
EJ Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
And also, OK, admittedly LA is a fairly illogical place to live, but encouraging people to live in little towns in the middle of the damn desert is ridiculous. A lot of those towns only exist in the first place because they had access to wells which could provide water to steam trains – their time has passed.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Jim, to decelerate from 220 or so you need to start braking miles out from the stop. By the time the train stops, dwells and accelerates back up to track speed the following train has caught up with it. Which means very very long station sidings, miles and miles of them. It’s a bit more than a patch of asphalt, a bus shelter and a TVM.
Alon Levy Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 8:51 am
When the line runs at capacity and the overtakes aren’t timed properly, you need long sidings at each station. When the overtakes are timed, you four-track a few stations, make local trains dwell there for 3-4 minutes, and get the express trains to pass them there. High-speed trains decelerate faster than you think, and if the train that’s ahead is faster than the train that’s behind, even 3-minute headways are acceptable.
Joey Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 10:34 am
The current plan is to have bypass tracks at nearly every station (exceptions being LAUS, San José, and maybe the peninsula stops). Also, I doubt that you want to run trains directly past the platforms at 220 MPH.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
If they build a connection to Las Vegas ten an hour at peak isn’t unthinkable between LA and Fresno. 6 minute headways.
jimsf Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
As much as I support hsr, the idea that trains will be running at 6 minute headways in each direction up and down the valley is a little farfetched. At least for the first 10 years, unless they plan to just spend money running empty trains. 20 minute headways will be frequent enough that people don’t have to wait around for a train, and will ensure the trains are carrying enough people per run. Once the sacramento- line is running that can double the central valley headways to 10 minutes.
Peter Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
That wouldn’t be all day long, just during peak hours.
jimsf Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
so, similar to how caltrain does it now. I suppose the airlines have peak demand times as well, although one doesn’t think of commuting by air.
BruceMcF Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
For two to three hour intercity travel, there are both peak demand departure times and peak demand arrival times. The idea that there would be a fifteen minute period when you’d want to get three trains running in one direction is perfectly reasonable. Taking the trains you might be running in, say, a three hour period and specifying headways based on dividing the number of trains by 180 minutes implies schedules that have awkward timings, particularly for the critical same-day trip markets.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
2 an hour between SF and LA with an additional one running all the way to Anaheim or San Diego gets up to 4 an hour leaving SF. Throw in once an hour from SF to LV that’s five. Once an hour from Sacramento to LV, LA, and SD is eight an hour. Peak hours it wouldn’t be all that outrageous to have a super express between SF and LA and Sacramento and LA….ten an hour is easy.
Alon Levy Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
LV-NorCal wouldn’t justify 2 tph.
More likely: SF-SoCal 6 tph, SF-LV 1 tph, Sac-SoCal 3 tph, all during peak hour at full buildout. One of the Sac-SoCal trains could be timed with the SF-LV train. Adding more trains just to have some short-turns at LAUS is so pointless even the California planners will probably not do it.
jimsf Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
As for Dx, the website says “Trains would operate between 6 am to 10 pm (or later), daily, 365 days a year, at 20 to 30 minute intervals during peak periods and 1- to 2-hour intervals during non-peak periods” which sounds realistic.
AndyDuncan Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Aren’t turnouts limited to about 130mph? So you only need long enough sidings to bring you down from 130. The 220-130 (and 130-220) has to be done on the regular track, no?
Alon Levy Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Turnouts are limited to whatever the technology behind them specifies. I think the current outer limit is about 200 km/h, but even 160 is expensive. It doesn’t really matter, because at DX frequencies, a train could stop at three two-track stations before the express train behind it would get stuck. Even at CAHSR frequencies of 10 tph on LA-Fresno at full buildout, the time lost slowing down from 350 to 130 for a regular switch is nowhere near enough to create bottlenecks.
Clem Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
230 km/h (143 mph) diverging is common where time (and speed) is of the essence. Straight-ahead routing imposes no speed restrictions.
Well I can see where the naysayers get their skepticism. Sounds like dx and hsr will after all only be for the important people with plenty of others being considered irrelevant. I’m not suggesting anyone actually build a station in Wasco though. Its close enough to Bakersfield. But when you have a place like Barstow, stranded halfway between, and considerable distance from, places like vegas and la, they should at least be given the option. And I doubt the people who live there think “their time has passed.”
I prefer to keep the future possibilities for anyone who want to join in to do so. It would seem some here are only concerned about making sure its “their way” skipping whatever doesn’t matter to them. There is no good reason whatsoever that, should they decide they’d like one, that primm and/or barstow shouldn’t be allowed to say “hey we’d like a stop too and this is how we’d like to do it.” Doesn’t mean they will, but they option should be there. What happen to all the open minds and forward thinkers? We all know the cost of building things without expandability.
Walter Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 9:43 am
JimSF, we probably agree on 95% of HSR-related issues. But Primm has three casinos and a mall (no, really, those are all of the buildings in Primm). The population is 436. As EJ so astutely pointed out, encouraging development in Primm is wrong for all sorts of reasons. Why does anyone want a train to stop there? And should DX also stop in Baker? Zzyzx? Yermo’s population is 4-5 times higher than Primm. Do they get a stop?
Matthew Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 10:04 am
Jim, it’s expandable, just relatively expensive to create a non-express stop. This is a system that will allow for future development, but remember that this is proposed to be entirely privately funded. A Las Vegas – LA link is not even in the cards for the next 3 decades at least if we wait for federal funding. Building now will give a station in Victorville, which will have to be good enough to serve the Inland Empire and High Desert areas unless there is significant population growth there in the future. I’m guessing the Victorville stop won’t be abandoned for all trains even after the connection to Palmdale is complete due to the reasonably large population in the Inland Empire/San Diego who might prefer to drive through the Cajon pass rather than take a more expensive, longer train ride through LA. We should allow Desertxpress to build the base system without too many extra frills so that it has a chance of being economically viable. The contract for connecting to the CAHSR infrastructure is key, though. CAHSR should insist on clauses that enable it to create non-express stations, e.g. at Barstow, or at least to ensure that the Victorville station remains. Perhaps more importantly is to determine how through trains to e.g. LA or SF will operate. Will the trains stop at Palmdale and Sylmar? Will (some) Desertxpress SF bound trains stop at Bakersfield, etc?
BruceMcF Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
Whether DX plans to stop at Barstow would be up to them – privately financed venture and all.
But you wouldn’t put a bullet train station at a city of under 50,000 people unless its there for some other transport need.
I do question the need for a modesto stop though as its only 14 minutes from stockton. That seems like overkill.
Joey Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Modesto is a pretty big city, with a metropolitan area of over 500k. I’d say that’s big enough to generate decent ridership.
There will be podunk stops all along the line, part and parcel of the dumbing down process that spawned Palmdale-Tehachapis.
Once you cave to influence peddling, where does the gerrymandering stop? Answer: all over the place.
Joey Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 10:59 am
Get a clue.
EJ Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Don’t feed the troll. Why do you feed the troll?
jimsf Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 11:02 am
Syn, what you call “influence peddling” is also known as “democracy” Its where people who want stuff are able to do what they want politically, in order to get it. When you combine “democracy” with “capitalism” you get “america.” You can make it sound dirty by calling it “influence peddling” but by any name, its how things are done here like it or not. You can’t beat them, all you can do is join ‘em.
Oh please? Maglev never had a chance! I come form Germany where they tried a maglev track in North Rhine Westphalia. Bahn and local governments calculated the costs compared to the benefits of such a system and came to the result that it was more beneficial to upgrade the whole fleet of local trains and train stations with the same amount of money than to invest it in this pipe dream.
Only states that don’t care about people but instead about prestige (such as China) can build maglev. and even they could only afford a short track in Shanghai. The idea behind maglev was that it would be better than conventional rail. But with the world record of the TGV in 2005 and all the new technologies, railway companies realized that they can reach the same comfort and speed through conventional high speed trains, too.
Peter Reply:
March 29th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Wann wollte die Politik eine Magnetschwebebahn in NRW? Ich erinnere mich nur noch an die M-Bahn in Berlin, Transrapid von Berlin nach Hamburg, und Transrapid zum Flughafen in Muenchen…
Ach richtig, Metrorapid.
Look at an overview picture
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Cahsr_map.svg/586px-Cahsr_map.svg.png
and it becomes obvious that the connection to Victorville should be to RIVERSIDE, not PALMDALE.
No one from San Diego or Inland Empire (San Bernadino, etc.) is going to take this thing to Vegas if they have to spend an hour or two getting to Palmdale first.
Andy Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 10:30 am
I know, the mountains, too expensive, etc., but my point is this is useless to San Diego. I guess the builders are ok with that.
The drive-then-ride model is flawed when the drive portion is long, because traffic has to be factored in, ruining any time savings afforded by HSR.
If you ask a San Diegan to drive to Victorville, get off the freeway, park, walk, pay money, stand around and wait for a train (they will have to leave their house an hour early, in case of traffic on 15), pay more money for a taxi when they get there — RATHER than just stay in your car that’s already traveling 70mph on a road that goes straight into a Vegas casino — it ain’t going to happen. People will just stay in their cars. There’s no incentive (time or money) to get out.
Peter Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 10:32 am
“Obvious” is not the same as practical. See above posts regarding using the Cajon Pass vs Mojave.
AndyDuncan Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Actually the route that makes the most sense is to forget about victorville in phase one and drag the line fromBarstow to Mojave to meet up with the CAHSR system, which provides you flight-competitive express runs from SF, SC and Sac. Then, when CAHSR phase two to san-diego is built, build the connector from Barstow to Ontario, slightly shortening the route for LA-LV and providing direct routes for SD-LV.
Matthew Reply:
March 31st, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Or build a line between LA and Phoenix along the 10 freeway, then build a north-south segment connecting to Las Vegas east of the San Bernardino mountains.
The most logical configuration, all things being equal, is for San Bernardino to serve as a hub for steel-wheels-on-steel-rails to and from: Los Angeles (Santa Monica); Phoenix; San Diego; and, Anaheim (Long Beach).
Magnetic-levitation trains from this intermodal terminal in San Bernardino up the Cajon Pass and to Las Vegas via Victorville would allow for future extensions of the line to: St. George; Salt Lake City; Denver; Reno; etc. The principal advantage of this mode over high-speed rail is the ability to negotiate steeper grades and the more mountainous terrain of the Rockies.
Magnetic levitation does not make much sense within the greater Los Angeles basin, especially between ARTIC and Ontario. But, a steel-wheels-on-steel-rails line between Long Beach and San Bernardino via ARTIC, downtown Corona, and downtown Riverside would work very well.
After looking at material online, including the FRA DEIS, I conclude that the project is pie-in-the-sky. The possibility of even doing the DEIS is probably related to Senator Reid and an earmark.
And, no CEQA DEIR? Is there an exemption?