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	<title>Comments on: The Plane Or The Train? Comparing Travel Options In An HSR Era</title>
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	<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era</link>
	<description>California High Speed Rail support blog, spreading news and info about the high speed trains project approved by California voters in November 2008.</description>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69867</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69867</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-69732&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@elfling &lt;/a&gt; Why are you assuming that a high speed rail station would NOT have those same things -- expensive short-term parking, cheaper long term parking but more time consuming and requiring a shuttle bus, etc.?  With all those millions of riders projected to use HSR, they all can&#039;t park right in front of the station like you can with Amtrak today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-69732" rel="nofollow">@elfling </a> Why are you assuming that a high speed rail station would NOT have those same things &#8212; expensive short-term parking, cheaper long term parking but more time consuming and requiring a shuttle bus, etc.?  With all those millions of riders projected to use HSR, they all can&#8217;t park right in front of the station like you can with Amtrak today.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69865</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69865</guid>
		<description>While I agree with the sentiment of this article, it&#039;s clearly biased toward making your point.

(1) You said, &quot;it’s 45 minutes from Monterey to Gilroy, so let’s say I leave Monterey 60 minutes before departure (since I’d want to leave some time to spare).&quot;  15 minutes to spare?  That&#039;s cutting it awfully close.  You are assuming zero traffic to get to Gilroy, and parking right at the door (overnight? what, for free?), and walking onto the train like it was a bus stop.  In reality you would have left 30 minutes earlier than you claimed, reducing the train&#039;s advantage.

That&#039;s all assuming you can just walk onto a train like it was a bus.  What happens when God forbid &quot;something happens&quot; and from then on, we have to all go through the same security checks as we do at airports?  And if there are really these millions of people riding high speed rail, we&#039;ll need big parking lots like at airports, or long-term parking, etc.  The reality is that it is not going to be any faster, and in fact much slower, for many trips -- including yours.

(2) If you are going to Orange County, fly to Orange County (john wayne).  Why would you fly to LAX?  You said you could not find a cheap fare, but that&#039;s completely irrelevant when you are comparing travel times.  John Wayne is well-served by Southwest Airlines and has tons of cheap fares.  You just did not find on for your particular day, and what constitutes &quot;cheap&quot; anyway -- it&#039;s subjective, and is not relevant to the argument for building a high speed rail network.  If Southwest Airlines happened to have a sale that day, your whole argument is out the window.  Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with the sentiment of this article, it&#8217;s clearly biased toward making your point.</p>
<p>(1) You said, &#8220;it’s 45 minutes from Monterey to Gilroy, so let’s say I leave Monterey 60 minutes before departure (since I’d want to leave some time to spare).&#8221;  15 minutes to spare?  That&#8217;s cutting it awfully close.  You are assuming zero traffic to get to Gilroy, and parking right at the door (overnight? what, for free?), and walking onto the train like it was a bus stop.  In reality you would have left 30 minutes earlier than you claimed, reducing the train&#8217;s advantage.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s all assuming you can just walk onto a train like it was a bus.  What happens when God forbid &#8220;something happens&#8221; and from then on, we have to all go through the same security checks as we do at airports?  And if there are really these millions of people riding high speed rail, we&#8217;ll need big parking lots like at airports, or long-term parking, etc.  The reality is that it is not going to be any faster, and in fact much slower, for many trips &#8212; including yours.</p>
<p>(2) If you are going to Orange County, fly to Orange County (john wayne).  Why would you fly to LAX?  You said you could not find a cheap fare, but that&#8217;s completely irrelevant when you are comparing travel times.  John Wayne is well-served by Southwest Airlines and has tons of cheap fares.  You just did not find on for your particular day, and what constitutes &#8220;cheap&#8221; anyway &#8212; it&#8217;s subjective, and is not relevant to the argument for building a high speed rail network.  If Southwest Airlines happened to have a sale that day, your whole argument is out the window.  Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan S.</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69737</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 01:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69737</guid>
		<description>I just listened to this program myself.  It is quite disheartening as a HSR supporter to hear this project put on such a poor performance in their public outreach yet again.  I suppose Bob Doty might be a good administrator, but he is just not a good spokesman.  He couldn&#039;t address issues head-on, he couldn&#039;t even remember Elizabeth&#039;s name for goodness sakes.  If this project wants to win public perception, it&#039;s going to have to drag out some better talking heads than this.

Maybe we, the pro-HSR community, should put together a single-page cheatsheet of talking points for anyone debating HSR.  Include stuff like profitability of other HSR systems around the world, actual estimates for greenhouse gas savings, some examples of possible air and car expenses if peak oil hits, estimates for required highway expansion given CA&#039;s rising population, actual point-to-point air travel times vs. HSR.....

But most of all, listening to this radio program makes me think that this 40 Billion Dollar Project needs to hire some professional spokesmen and send them to community meetings and media events.  The administrators and retired politicians they&#039;ve been trotting out might have some project-leading skills but they are losing the public debate against part-time community activists and spur-of-the-moment questioners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just listened to this program myself.  It is quite disheartening as a HSR supporter to hear this project put on such a poor performance in their public outreach yet again.  I suppose Bob Doty might be a good administrator, but he is just not a good spokesman.  He couldn&#8217;t address issues head-on, he couldn&#8217;t even remember Elizabeth&#8217;s name for goodness sakes.  If this project wants to win public perception, it&#8217;s going to have to drag out some better talking heads than this.</p>
<p>Maybe we, the pro-HSR community, should put together a single-page cheatsheet of talking points for anyone debating HSR.  Include stuff like profitability of other HSR systems around the world, actual estimates for greenhouse gas savings, some examples of possible air and car expenses if peak oil hits, estimates for required highway expansion given CA&#8217;s rising population, actual point-to-point air travel times vs. HSR&#8230;..</p>
<p>But most of all, listening to this radio program makes me think that this 40 Billion Dollar Project needs to hire some professional spokesmen and send them to community meetings and media events.  The administrators and retired politicians they&#8217;ve been trotting out might have some project-leading skills but they are losing the public debate against part-time community activists and spur-of-the-moment questioners.</p>
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		<title>By: elfling</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69732</link>
		<dc:creator>elfling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 01:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69732</guid>
		<description>And of course, when counting cost-competitive, you have to add in the taxi, the airport bus, the airport parking, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And of course, when counting cost-competitive, you have to add in the taxi, the airport bus, the airport parking, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew F.</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69720</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69720</guid>
		<description>The &quot;Examiner&quot; series of sites seem to be to be the worst of the worst on the New Web: Bloggers without any journalistic standards of credibility, who are motivated by per-hit payments (yes, you and I just sent a few cents to Alan Kandal) to write scandalizing articles, being passed on as if they were real journalists. I&#039;ve yet to see any &quot;Examiner&quot; stories that weren&#039;t a joke. Heck, half the time I write more researched comments than articles you see on the Examiner sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Examiner&#8221; series of sites seem to be to be the worst of the worst on the New Web: Bloggers without any journalistic standards of credibility, who are motivated by per-hit payments (yes, you and I just sent a few cents to Alan Kandal) to write scandalizing articles, being passed on as if they were real journalists. I&#8217;ve yet to see any &#8220;Examiner&#8221; stories that weren&#8217;t a joke. Heck, half the time I write more researched comments than articles you see on the Examiner sites.</p>
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		<title>By: elfling</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69714</link>
		<dc:creator>elfling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69714</guid>
		<description>Extremely well put and explicit answer!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Extremely well put and explicit answer!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69665</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69665</guid>
		<description>I wrote a comment to the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote a comment to the article.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69664</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69664</guid>
		<description>Please, HSR will be cost competitive with airfares.  Many people misunderstand the difference between the &lt;B&gt;average&lt;/B&gt; fare (which is the number CHSRA throws out in its various business plans) and the &lt;B&gt;lowest&lt;/B&gt; fare.  The average fare on LUV or UAUA is a good deal higher than $120 RT.

Those unfamiliar with European rail fares (i.e., almost all the HSR critics and even some HSR supporters) would do well to check out the fare search engine &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://en.momondo.com/Default.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Momondo&lt;/A&gt;.  A few sample searches on heavily traveled routes:

Cheapest Paris-Lyon train or flight: $99 (TGV)
Cheapest Paris-Lyon flight: $303 (Air France)

Cheapest Paris-Marseille train or flight: $136 (TGV)
Cheapest Paris-Marseille flight: $278 (Air France)
Cheapest Rural Paris-Marseille flight: $125 (Ryanair)

Cheapest Madrid-Barcelona train or flight: $87 (Vueling)
Cheapest Madrid-Barcelona train: $128 (Renfe)

Cheapest London-Paris train or flight: $146 (Eurostar)
Cheapest London-Paris flight: $210 (Air France)
Cheapest Rural London-Paris flight: $160 (EasyJet)

TGV is priced lower (sometimes much lower) than lowest airfares and Renfe is priced somewhat higher than lowest airfares (both of which we already knew).  The real surprise is that that Eurostar is priced lower than lowest airfares.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, HSR will be cost competitive with airfares.  Many people misunderstand the difference between the <b>average</b> fare (which is the number CHSRA throws out in its various business plans) and the <b>lowest</b> fare.  The average fare on LUV or UAUA is a good deal higher than $120 RT.</p>
<p>Those unfamiliar with European rail fares (i.e., almost all the HSR critics and even some HSR supporters) would do well to check out the fare search engine <a HREF="http://en.momondo.com/Default.aspx" rel="nofollow">Momondo</a>.  A few sample searches on heavily traveled routes:</p>
<p>Cheapest Paris-Lyon train or flight: $99 (TGV)<br />
Cheapest Paris-Lyon flight: $303 (Air France)</p>
<p>Cheapest Paris-Marseille train or flight: $136 (TGV)<br />
Cheapest Paris-Marseille flight: $278 (Air France)<br />
Cheapest Rural Paris-Marseille flight: $125 (Ryanair)</p>
<p>Cheapest Madrid-Barcelona train or flight: $87 (Vueling)<br />
Cheapest Madrid-Barcelona train: $128 (Renfe)</p>
<p>Cheapest London-Paris train or flight: $146 (Eurostar)<br />
Cheapest London-Paris flight: $210 (Air France)<br />
Cheapest Rural London-Paris flight: $160 (EasyJet)</p>
<p>TGV is priced lower (sometimes much lower) than lowest airfares and Renfe is priced somewhat higher than lowest airfares (both of which we already knew).  The real surprise is that that Eurostar is priced lower than lowest airfares.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69662</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69662</guid>
		<description>Those were the only options they talked about.

Nonetheless, I think the author of the letter is a &quot;concerned citizen&quot; who doesn&#039;t know what he&#039;s talking about. The aerial will be designed so that a train derailing doesn&#039;t leave the aerial. It&#039;s not the most difficult engineering feat. Even if there wasn&#039;t a freight train loaded with hazardous materials, a train derailing off an aerial is a very bad idea. So to think that they aren&#039;t going to take steps to prevent that is to be a little naive.

Also, a freight train might damage the support columns, but isn&#039;t going to take them down. The support columns will likely not even be close enough to the freight line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those were the only options they talked about.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I think the author of the letter is a &#8220;concerned citizen&#8221; who doesn&#8217;t know what he&#8217;s talking about. The aerial will be designed so that a train derailing doesn&#8217;t leave the aerial. It&#8217;s not the most difficult engineering feat. Even if there wasn&#8217;t a freight train loaded with hazardous materials, a train derailing off an aerial is a very bad idea. So to think that they aren&#8217;t going to take steps to prevent that is to be a little naive.</p>
<p>Also, a freight train might damage the support columns, but isn&#8217;t going to take them down. The support columns will likely not even be close enough to the freight line.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/02/the-plane-or-the-train-comparing-travel-options-in-an-hsr-era/comment-page-1/#comment-69655</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2837#comment-69655</guid>
		<description>A few weeks back, I spent 3:15 FROM GATE TO GATE flying LAX-SFO. Plane was scheduled to depart at 12:05. Boarded at 11:45, plane pulled from the gate at about 12:15, then as we start to taxi, pilot comes on and announces (surprise) that the poor conditions (clouds) at SFO has moved our landing slot about an hour into the future. We needed to pull from the gate, but were going to park out on the tarmac for about an hour. We took off at about 1:30 and then spent 1:30 flying up. We must have been zigging and zagging to kill time. Finally existed the plane in SF at 3:00.

This happens when the conditions at SFO require planes to approach from the east, which is pretty common in the winter. LA and Burbank flights take the hit, as it&#039;s tougher to tell a plane from Tokyo to kill an hour or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few weeks back, I spent 3:15 FROM GATE TO GATE flying LAX-SFO. Plane was scheduled to depart at 12:05. Boarded at 11:45, plane pulled from the gate at about 12:15, then as we start to taxi, pilot comes on and announces (surprise) that the poor conditions (clouds) at SFO has moved our landing slot about an hour into the future. We needed to pull from the gate, but were going to park out on the tarmac for about an hour. We took off at about 1:30 and then spent 1:30 flying up. We must have been zigging and zagging to kill time. Finally existed the plane in SF at 3:00.</p>
<p>This happens when the conditions at SFO require planes to approach from the east, which is pretty common in the winter. LA and Burbank flights take the hit, as it&#8217;s tougher to tell a plane from Tokyo to kill an hour or two.</p>
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