Britain’s HSR Plans Take Shape
As a spring general election looms, Britain is moving ahead with planning its high speed rail network, intended to someday link London to Scotland via the populous Midlands cities. Already some of the key issues are being identified, as the Guardian reports. They include:
• What happens to Heathrow Airport? The HSR network could obviate the need for a new runway at Heathrow, especially if a stop is built at Birmingham International Airport:
Birmingham International airport plans to nearly treble in size from 9.2 million passengers per year to 27 million by 2030 without adding a new runway. Instead, it is building a 400m runway extension that will allow the airport to host planes with heavier fuel loads, opening up destinations such as San Francisco and China.
The Labour government is exploring the Birmingham option, which interestingly enough is supported by their likely successors in government once the election is held:
However, connecting Birmingham International to a high-speed rail line would suit the Conservative party, which has pledged to block a third runway and build an ultra-fast rail network instead. The shadow transport secretary, Theresa Villiers, expects regional airports such as Birmingham to soak up the airport growth permitted by the government’s advisory body on climate change.
The difference is that the Conservatives don’t see this as an either/or proposition, and believe that HSR should serve Heathrow AND Birmingham airports:
Theresa Villiers, the Shadow Transport Secretary, said: “We recognise a very strong case for an integrated rail solution at Heathrow, to improve the connectivity of the airport with the rest of the country.
What might have prompted this? A few weeks earlier the Evening Standard reported that a think tank connected to financial outfits in the City of London and headed by a former Conservative Party Deputy Prime Minister objected to excluding Heathrow:
But in a report backed by Lord Heseltine, who approved the route for High Speed 1 from St Pancras to the Channel Tunnel, the Bow Group said: “If the new rail link does not build a direct link from London to Heathrow, it may as well not be done at all.”
• How will HSR be built through the city centers? The British plans include city center stations in Birmingham and Manchester, and presumably in Edinburgh as well. The study given to the Labour government indicates the first phase will see trains at 200 mph using new tracks to Birmingham and then using existing tracks at conventional speeds up to Scotland, until the HSR tracks are built in the northern sections of the route. Britain will likely face some similar debates as we’re seeing here in California, which is also looking to leverage existing rail corridors (if not the tracks themselves) to bring HSR into city centers, as well as building on new alignments in rural areas.
• Speaking of, how will Britain deal with environmental concerns in the countryside? Already there are questions being raised in the Chilterns:
The Chilterns Conservation Board, the public body responsible for protecting the area, has warned that parts of the countryside could be “trashed” by a high-speed route.
Of course, large parts of East Anglia would be “trashed” by a rise in sea level induced by global warming, and even the Thames Barrier might be in trouble, so you have to place such statements in context. Still, it’s an indication of the battles that lie ahead outside the cities.
Ultimately the plans call for connecting London to Edinburgh at the same 2 hours, 40 minutes time that California’s HSR is mandated to take to link SF to LA. The upcoming election will help determine some of these questions, but others lie ahead. As both California and Britain plan HSR networks, there will continue to be parallels and similar issues encountered between the two projects.

Why does Heathrow need an HSR stop? It already has mainline rail and metro service.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 12:37 am
To get people from Northern England to Heathrow.
James D Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 5:01 am
Those traffic flows are tiny compared with those to central London, it’s so far out of the way it would have to be a branch (i.e. the frequencies would inevitably be dreadful), and the engineering challenge is enormous (i.e. it would involve a lot of tunnelling and would therefore cost a bomb).
The Birmingham option is much better as the airport is actually on the correct side of Birmingham to be on the way from London — most sensible HSR alignments would have the main line going right past it. This natural boost in potential train frequency, combined with being much further north, makes it much more competitive for northern cities too. It may mean that airlines can stop duplicating routes between Heathrow and a random northern airport and achieve massive economies of scale on long-haul routes by moving them to Birmingham.
The long-term solution to Heathrow, if airlines do indeed behave rationally and consolidate on Birmingham, may even be to close it and redevelop the site to address the massive housing shortage that exists in Greater London.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
I’m not much aware of transportation infrastructure in Great Britain, but it does seem a bit far-fetched that one would close the world’s 2nd busiest airport and move all its operations to an airport 1/10th its size, just to build new housing.
Andre Peretti Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 3:59 am
There are two conflicting theories about that:
- #1: The success of the TGV terminal at Paris CDG airport proves an HSR link is a necessity for an international hub. As Heathrow has a higher international traffic than CDG, an HSR link is a no-brainer.
- #2: In 10 years’ time, mega-hubs like Heathrow and CDG will be a thing of the past. The smaller B787 and A350 will bring international flights directly to regional airports, making HSR links unnecessary.
Boeing believes in theory #2, while Airbus thinks mega-hubs will grow even bigger.
Andrew Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 7:22 am
Heathrow is very busy airport, but I’d wager that most of that traffic is either metropolitan London-bound or for connecting flights. There’s already the Heathrow Express that will get you to central London in 15 minutes, and the airport is so far out of the way for HS2 that it hardly seems worth it.
Charles de Gaulle may be an exception, but I don’t see Airport HSR being of that much value. Urban rail is a must, but unless the airport happens to be close to the planned HSR route then it’s not worth the trouble.
schrodinger Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 1:45 am
It has a shuttle into Paddington station. If you want to go north, then it is an hour on the Undergropund to get to Euston or St Pancras. Even a non high speed link from the WCML would vastly improve the connection to Northern England.
The following letter was printed in the PA Daily News on Sat. Feb 13th. Since it comes from a person with authority, it should be noted with more than usual consideration.
=========
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
Rail ridership estimates were ’faked’ to hoodwink public
Dear Editor: As the retired manager of long range transit planning at the Southern California Association of Governments, until 2008 I had to deal regularly with the California High Speed Rail Authority. It is, without a doubt, the most dysfunctional and possibly corrupt transportation agency in the state, possibly the nation. It is unprofessional, mismanaged and not accountable to the Legislature or the taxpayers who will have to pay off the bonds.
Those of us who have studied high-speed rail systems, including ridership estimates, operational costs and fare structures, immediately knew that these numbers were faked, and this nonsense of a “typo” is an obvious lie. The results produced and the lack of transparency on the purported estimation methodology (until now) generated astounding and impossible results. It is now increasingly apparent that these ridership estimates were faked to deliberately and willfully to hoodwink the public.
And these deliberately faked results were used in subsequent policy and environmental documents, rendering those findings meaning-less, at a cost of millions of dollars willfully and fraudulently taken from the taxpayers to pay for these results.
Over the last couple of years I’ve worked with several international firms that have done high-speed rail private investment projects around the world and were interested in possible opportunities in California. I note that these people were not fooled by these clearly ludicrous modeling estimates, and are now even less inclined to make any private investments in the authority.
I support high-speed rail and now serve on several non-profit transit and rail advocacy and educational boards that support a responsible, well-planned, cost-effective, high-speed rail component as part of our California system of high-speed, intercity and regional rail services.
However, no one should be fooled into thinking that the incompetent and possibly crooked crew at the California High Speed Rail Authority will deliver a carefully designed and cost-effective high-speed rail system for California under the current dubious authority management team or the apparently equally dubious oversight of the current authority board.
Bob Huddy, Pasadena
HSRforCali Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
I’m afraid I’m going to have to agree with Morris on this one. As much as I want HSR in this state, I see this authority as being incompetent and needing some serious reform. Quentin Kopp definitely needs to go and Curt Pringle should not be chairman. Lets not forget what Kopp brought upon the Peninsula; an oversized Grand Central Station in suburbia that now complicates the design of HSR through Milbrae. As for Pringle, he’s now trying to force the construction of a tunnel through Anaheim, an expensive decision among many that will only further increase the construction costs of the entire system. To me, the Authority needs serious reform just like our State Government. As a large HSR supporter, I don’t want to see this project in the hands of people who don’t even see to know what they’re doing. We need an authority comprised of experts who have built HSR systems across the globe: the French, Spanish, Japanese, Germans, etc. These are the ones who should be planning California’s HSR system, not Pringle, Kopp and all they’re little friends.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
It makes more expensive to bring HSR through suburbia. It would be very very expensive to do but Millbrae and SFO could be …. rationalized…
Joey Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 10:47 pm
Mind if I see this guy’s credentials? “I’m an expert, etc, etc” is all very well, but it wouldn’t hurt to see the specifics.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Joey:
This is my first attempt at responding to a post on this blog. I shall not register, because the website will not accept my name as a “username.” At the risk of sounding unduly “snarky,” you shall never get anything resembling “credentials” from me (I’m an ornery old cuss). I shall, of course, provide references if asked. Now to see if the website accepts this reply…
Leroy W. Demery, Jr.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Hey! It works … and I don’t even have to type my name at the bottom (I’m an ornery old cuss, and an old-fashioned one, too.)
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
Hmmm! It works! And I don’t even have to type my name at the bottom (I’m an ornery old cuss, and an old-fashioned one, too).
dist Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 2:32 am
“The agency is corrupt”, this is for sure argument zero. The one that you can’t avoid in the US. It’s allmost like, by nature, state agencies and governements are corrupt and ineficient. This is so convenient, and people are so eager/used to believe/heard this argument, that the author doesn’t even bother to back up his diffamatory speech.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:40 am
This is nonsense. His letter is full of assertions but he does not offer one single shred of evidence to justify the “deliberately faked” claim, nor does he ever explain why the ridership numbers are flawed.
All HSR critics ever have to offer on ridership are assertions. So far they have failed completely in their efforts to find actual fault with the projections.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
The fact that the CHRSA ridership projections imply passenger traffic density levels far exceeding anything yet attained in Europe is grounds, per se, for skepticism. However …
The inimitable Wendell Cox and Joseph Vranich subjected the CHSRA projections to the “deep discount” treatment. They describe their “Due Diligence 2030 Base” as the “Ridership projection considered most likely by this report.” Note the key words “most likely.” The “Due Diligence” projections are very roughly 60-70 percent below the CHRSA projections. However …
The Cox-Vranich forecasts imply passenger traffic density levels exceeding anything yet attained in Europe. In other words, the Cox-Vranich report actually makes a strong case for high-speed rail in California. Of course, Cox and Vranich somehow neglected to disclose this (perhaps they feared that Reason Foundation Director of Transportation Robert Poole would shave off his beard in disgust).
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
That’s the most incredible thing about that report. Either it’s also full of shit or they are being intellectually dishonest.
Peter Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:50 am
Just because someone has “authority” doesn’t mean they know what they’re talking about or that we should listen. It’s like when Bush decided to go to war against Iraqon false premises. That was all made up with no factual backing, too.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Look up his Facebook page: Richard Tolmach is one of his friends.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
(Huh, I thought I already posted it, but my post disappeared when the page reloaded…)
Check out who is on Bob Huddy’s friend list on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/friends/?id=1652331324
None other than Richard Tolmach himself.
Bingo!
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
No, Rich’s dog is named Lucy, not Bingo …
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 10:57 pm
No, Richard’s dog is named Lucy, not “Bingo” …
Peter Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 8:43 am
That’s funny. Big surprise.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Assuming, “Peter,” that you referred to Central Park, N.Y., vs. Griffith Park, L.A.:
The land area of Griffith Park, L.A., is five times greater than that of Central Park, N.Y.
In fact, Griffith Park is more than three times as large as the “potential maximum size” of the Baldwin Hills regional park.
I checked this years ago, when critics were trying the “kiss of death” approach vis-a-vis New York City, which was then mired in a major financial crisis (a well-known newspaper headline from the era: “[President] Ford to City: Drop Dead.”
Many people, even many who live there, have no real concept of the immense size of Los Angeles relative to other U.S. cities.
If you know L.A., think of the area bounded on the Alameda St. to the east, Sunset Blvd, Hollywood Blvd and Franklin Ave to the north, La Cienega Blvd to the west, and Rodeo Rd and Vernon Ave to the south. This area includes parts of West Hollywood and Beverly Hills.
The land area is 50 square miles, almost exactly that of San Francisco (heh, heh, heh …).
However, since the late 1970s, this area has housed more people than San Francisco, which means it has a higher population density. To the best of my knowledge, the population of S.F. has never exceeded 800,000. By comparison, the population of this “L.A. core” area was 940,000 – at 1990, and certainly exceeds 1 million today. The “implications” are debatable … but some people simply tune out the fact itself.
Peter Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
I’m confused. Or maybe you are. Did I refer to some park? I was referring to the fact that Richard Tolmach is friends with Bob Huddy on facebook. That’s what isfunny.
Peter Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I see below that YOU brought up a park. That wasn’t me.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
My bad, “Peter,” but remember, I’m an old fossil … and sometimes I have difficulty on this blog determining who is responding to whom.
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
I am friends with people who are friends with Tolmach. Do I lose HSR cred too? Just wondering while we are scouring Facebook to see who is friends with who so that we can feel like we discredited someone when in fact we haven’t done a damn thing.
BruceMcF Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Since Facebook friends does not imply actual friendship, and since one purpose of “friending” someone is to keep tabs on what they are posting on Facebook whether or not you agree … I find the “who is friends with who” not only to be an incredible juvenile game but also one unlikely to provide any evidence of anything in particular.
Somebody, for example, could be “friends” with ex-Gov. Palin in order to get a jump on writing a clever little blog post in response to the latest thing ex-Gov. Palin posted on Facebook. You’d have to read the clever little blog posts to work out whether they are supporters of ex-Gov. Palin, a critic to her left, or a critic to her right.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
I agree wholeheartedly, “BruceMcF.” And on the subjects of “friends,” and Palin …
The governor of my state (… who probably could not beat up the governor of your state …) is Christine Gregoire, whom I would describe as a staunch Democrat. Sometime before the 2008 election, Gregoire said that she knows Sarah Palin, and likes her. The obvious inference is “personally” (which I don’t think Gregoire needed to say, and she didn’t). Fine by me.
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
Also, friends can disagree with each other and still be friends. Members of the same organization can disagree with each other and still remain members (unless it is a cult).
YesonHSR Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 6:45 am
Direct from Tomalchs TRAC buddy
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 2:42 am
One story (… which I had a great deal of fun writing …) was published not too long ago in their newspaper, but I am not a member of TRAC. Get your facts straight, bub.
And dispense with that “kiss of death” tactic. It’s kinda transparent – and stupid.
During the 1970s, critics of a plan to create a large regional park on former oilfield land in L.A. pointed out that the proposed park was “larger than Central Park in New York City.”
Big deal – L.A.’s Griffith Park is larger – quite a bit larger – than “Central Park in New York City.”
Bob Huddy is a person who HAD authority with SCAG. (Such an unfortunate acronym).
I saw nothing in his letter to disprove that the “typo” wasn’t a typo.
SCAG’s idea of high speed rail transport is maglev to connect the airports in southern CA. And I note that Cambridge did the ridership studies for SCAG’s maglev program. Are their numbers faked, too?
One of the things I’ve learned is that the only reason someone uses the word “clearly” and “obviously” when writing a persuasive paper is when that person has no convincing facts to back him up. If something was “clear” or “obvious” there would be no need to convince the other party.
“Those of us who have studied high-speed rail systems … immediately knew that these numbers were faked”. So, SNCF has agreed the numbers were faked? Didn’t they come up with numbers that were very similar to CHSRA’s numbers?
Peter Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
*I saw nothing in his letter to disprove that the “typo” was a typo.*
I need to proof-read before I post.
I also saw no indication that Mr. Huddy ever actually read or analyzed the ridership modeling. He just essentially restated the argument that the numbers don’t pass the “smell-test” without saying why not.
BW Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
Peter, are you saying that Mr. Huddy’s leter is out of spite for not getting support on Maglev? Boy, I hope this is not indicitive of the character and moral fiber of the people running the transportation offices across our state, or is it? Oh, I’am confused now:(
Peter Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
No, they have some other regional rail maglev program. I didn’t see it being about the California-Nevada Interstate Maglev program.
http://scag.ca.gov/maglev/
Roger Christensen Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 10:58 pm
In Southern Calif it was referred to as “scaglev”. It was a totally absurd plan that Huddy and others relentlessly pursued against. SCAG has quietly since dropped it. The SCAG Board has always been littered by parochial hicks who occasionally would get snarky about other projects like CHSR. They once passed a resolution opposing subways in LA. Fortunately they don’t really have power, Metro has the money, and this week geologic testing is being done in Century City for a future subway stop.
Peter Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:51 am
When did they drop it? They have a number of documents produced for them by Cambridge that were published in early 2009 on the maglev.
Roger Christensen Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 10:48 am
A recent newsletter from Southern Calif Transit Advocates stated that Maglev has disappeared. That is my only source so it should be checked further.
Over the years I have been told not to take SCAGlev seriously because the plan exists solely to demonstrate that SoCal has a plan to mitigate air quality. This keeps them eligible for funding even if the plan is a non-starter.
Peter Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 10:49 am
Right. I have a plan to stop the Republicans from retaking Congress. Can I get funding?
Dan S. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
If you have a plan that will work, I will pay you money.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
My New Year’s resolutions included cutting calories and cutting snarkiness. Towards the latter:
Anyone who is skeptical of Roger Christensen’s account should check out a 2001 “Los Angeles Times” article: “Flaws in Region’s Transit Plan May Jeopardize Funds,” Douglas P. Shuit; April 22, 2001. As far as I know, this is not available online, except for the L.A. Times online archives, which is not free.
“For every motorist planners can show they are putting in the train — even if only on paper — the planning agency gets credits for meeting clean air laws.”
Shuit made it as clear as possible in a “straight news” story (i.e. without editorializing) that SCAG’s maglev aspirations had nothing to do with transit — and everything to do with maintaining the flow of federal highway funds. This article should be on the “short list” of “required reading” for transit, passenger rail and HSR supporters.
Arthur Dent Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 11:12 am
The LA article is free. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/apr/22/local/me-54227
The people involved with figuring out how to maintain that flow of funding back then are still around today, advising HSR. They’re not limiting the search to fed dollars – pockets of state and local funds are also being eyed. The state plays a zero-sum game. Who/what do you suppose will be losing their funding?
Strange – my Captcha words are wacky negotiations.
Peter Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 11:24 am
Just because local funds may be used does not mean those funds were raided from that local government. The local government may decide to put its own money in in order to effect the best result in its neighborhood.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Thank you, I did not know that the 2001 L.A. article was available online, free.
There is a fascinating and even-handed lecture about HSR by the chief engineer for the new British project. Everybody interested in HSR, for and against, should watch it… even die-hard HSR experts might learn something new.
There’s a very good explanation of where and where not to build stations (centers vs. outskirts) as often debated here.
I’m pretty sure this gentleman would chuckle at our plans here in California. (Transbay mess. 220 mph through downtown Fresno on a 20 km viaduct 20 meters in the sky. Downtown Gilroy station. etc.)
BW Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
Wow Just watched the lecture, Thanks Clem and Drunkin for the link. Great presentation, a bit of an eye opener. I don’t think he would just chuckle, rather fall over laughing, although that may be unbecoming of a proper English gentleman. Great points regarding headways and capacity. I only wish CHRSA could arrange a little consult.
Brian Stanke Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Really Clem?
Look at his proposal: “Northern Mega-City” I think he would laugh Tolmach’s I-5 alignment out of the room.
Let’s see here Fresno – Bakersfield “mega-city” anyone? Looks like the Authority is on the right track connecting CV cities together. I bet he would endorse separate tracks for LA – Anaheim too. Now I get why that is important. His biggest concern would probably be SF-SJ. Quad tracks would be a must, but would it still impact capacity with all the turnouts? I would like to hear his thoughts on that.
Oh and Richard, his statement about two trains an hour is a waste of time? Looks like he would want 4-6 tph minimum. Of course he speaks English so he must be automatically wrong in your opinion.
Richard Mlynarik Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 11:39 am
That’s exactly right. That’s why anybody with 10% of a functioning brain understands that all trains via Los Banos into the Bay Area is an economic catastrophe.
Think about of it: building two entirely new parallel tracks dedicated 100% to HSR from San Francisco to Fresno (it is becoming very clear that Caltrain will get none of this capacity) and a completely dedicated $4+ billion SF terminal station (recalling that Caltrain will be limited by a single track bottleneck approach to a maximum of two tracks, and plans to terminate the majority of its trains and dump the majority of its passengers a mile away from their destination) all for about two or three high speed trains per hour — which is the realistic HSR demand for the first decade or so of operation. (Look at CTRL. Look at Madrid-Barcelona. Demand will take decades to ramp up for 6+tph long distance HSR SF-Stockton.) Oh, and $10+ billion on the side for PBQD and the Very Very Very Special Friends to build a BART line Fremont-SJ-Santa Clara with ridership which will be circa 25% of “projections”.
Now consider instead the realistic, economic, environmentally sound alternative: building a flexible, higher-capacity, throughput-oriented terminal in SF which is designed to accommodate both HSR and regional (Caltrain) service; building a limited, strategic, service-oriented amount of quadruple track between Brisbane and Redwood City where it is needed to provide service; building a two track line Redwood City-Fremont that is shared between infrequent (2-4tph) HSR and infrequent (2-4tph) regional trains; building a two track line San Jose-Fremont that is shared between infrequent (2-4tph) and semi-frequent (4-tph) regional trains; and building a two track line Fremont-Stockton that is shared between HSR heading towards Southern California (3-4tph, up to 6tph in the distant future) and regional/HSR service SJ-Fremont-Livermore-Stockton-Sacramento (2-4tph).
So yes, people who think about the issues are very much aware of the complete insanity of building a nose bleed expensive, dedicated, HSR-only train line Transbay-SJ-Los-Banos-Fresno for an unjustifiably small number of Flight Level Zero Airline services and completely ignoring regional needs and completely ignoring the possibilities of multiple services amortizing the huge capital costs. And people who either think or look at the deliberately fraudulent documented history of those involved in HSR demand projections are well aware that this $20+ billion white elephant will be a ghost line which will only see a couple trains an hour per direction for a decade or more.
That’s why people who think through the costs and benefits seek to maximize the benefits associated with minimized costs.
None of this stuff is rocket science. None of these observations are original.
Joey Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 11:58 am
Ehh? The flaws of the SF terminus are the fault of the TJPA, not the CHSRA. In fact, a lot of those flaws could be remedied by CHSRA’s Beale Street alternative, which many people seem to be opposing.
Joey Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Also Madrid-Barcelona only opened two years ago. How you can expect them to have reached capacity yet is beyond me.
Brian Stanke Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Or the fact that Los Angeles and SF Bay Area combined areas are over double the population of the Madrid and Barcelona metro areas. That alone would put the CA HSR system at 4 tph to start. Add in the extra demand from two ~one million population intermediate metro areas (Fresno, Bakersfield) vs. one (Zaragosa) for the Spanish line. We are up to 5-6tph pretty fast.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Or the fact that Seoul-Busan is running 5 tph peak barely 5 years after the opening of the KTX, even though the line isn’t complete yet…
Brian Stanke Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Richard did you completely miss the part (slide 21) where he showed mixing a regional train onto a HS line took 5 train slots for one train? Reducing capacity 75% is a bad idea.
What you ridicule as “Flight Level Zero Airline services” is EXACTLY what he advocated. Only HS trains, as point to point as possible, in order to maximize capacity, reliability, speed, and economic return.
Mixing a bunch of commuter trains onto the HS line would be a BAD idea.
EJ Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Yeah, sure would be a stupid idea to build a route where it was impossible for express trains to overtake locals. Is someone proposing that?
This slide assumes not only different speeds, but the same stopping patterns – but that’s not a real life scenario. Look at the slide where he shows what happens when trains have to overtake each other. Even the French flight stopping vs. non-stop trains during peak periods.
It’s true that running mixed traffic reduces the absolute possible number of train paths, since locals would have to decelerate on the main line to negotiate the turnouts into sidings. But the 5 vs 1 slide is a bit of an overstatement. The Japanese have been running high speed locals (which typically use older, slower equipment), on the same tracks as higher-speed expresses for decades.
dejv Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 4:47 am
Richard and McNaughton are talking about completely different operations. There’s much lower speed differential in peninsula (slower trains go at 80 % track speed vs. 64 % speed in NcNaughtons example) and lower speeds allow for shorter headways.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
He was describing a two track system. On the Peninsula the slow trains will be on the slow tracks and the fast trains will be on the fast tracks so the problems with speed differentials is lessened or eliminated.
BruceMcF Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Precisely. And if the Express Caltrain trains are able to run to 100% track speed, then given the lower headways at 125mph than at 220mph, there are two Express passing opportunities in every fifteen minute slot on the Express tracks, with acceleration to Express track speed and deceleration from Express track speed taking place on the slow tracks.
They do need to be medium high speed turnouts, of course – if TJPA designed the system, they’d have the Express trains switch to the express tracks over a slow turn-out and then accelerate, and of course decelerate before reaching the switch back to the slow track, cutting that down to one slot per fifteen minutes at best.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Why would the express train, whether it’s painted red and white or blue and gold, leave the express track?
Clem Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
On the peninsula, all indications are now that HSR and Caltrain will be 100% segregated. Caltrain will function as a two-track system. I leave it to you to determine if this even makes the first bit of sense. Stay tuned for the big revelation on March 4th.
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
It wouldn’t surprise me, Caltrain has been pretty mum on what they plan on doing with the Baby Bullets once the CAHSR system is put in, they just keep saying the locals will be as fast as the BBs. If there’s no 45-ish minute electrified baby bullet, then there’s going to be a large amount of demand for the SJ-PA-SFO-SF Caltrain Super-Express/HSR All-Stop Local, whatever it ends up being called.
At the risk of sending RM into a froth over unnecessary concrete, is there enough space on the ROW to provide additional passing tracks for caltrain expresses, should they decide they need them at some point in the future? I know the ROW is wide enough at points for six tracks, but is it wide enough in the right places…
Joey Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
There’s room in Brisbane. Lawrence would require property takes, though probably not a whole lot. Looking at Clem’s timetable, Redwood City would require additional tracks as well, and that is an area where the right-of-way is particularly narrow. However, it’s going to require property takes to expand to 4 tracks anyway, so the impact of a couple more might not be that huge.
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
@Joey, I guess it’s wherever they have it four-tracked now…
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Six tracks would be completely and utterly absurd and wasteful, but some contractors would profit from building them.
Joey Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Well of course, no one is advocating six tracks all the way up and down the peninsula, but depending on how this all works out, it might make sense to have one or two six-track stations. For instance, playing with Clem’s timetable, I figured out that it might make sense to have six tracks in Redwood City, where express and local CalTrains would meet, but HSR trains would also likely need to pass.
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
No need to spend multi-millions of cash for ‘blue-moon’ passing events. Simply alter the schedule to better manage capacity. It’s what professionals do.
Joey Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
This isn’t “blue moon.” more like every half hour. If you think you can do better, go play with Clem’s timetable and show me.
(Just for reference, this scenario worked with 6tph, 2 express and 4 local, and provided a few direct transfers to CalTrain locals at Mountain View and Millbrae).
Bianca Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
I just came back from the Menlo Park preview of the Alternatives Analysis, and Dominic Spaethling actually pushed back pretty firmly from a question/suggestion that HSR would get two dedicated tracks on the Caltrain ROW. So I’m not sure what Clem is referring to, but I left that meeting with the distinct impression that the plan is to have Caltrain be able to run express trains on the HSR tracks. Just reporting what I heard.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
I would suspect he’s referring to something he’s illustrated in some of the diagrams on his site: That CalTrain’s Express trains would share tracks with the statewide HSR system, since they effectively will be running at the same speeds as the HSR system along the peninsula. So in a sense, there would be two dedicated high-speed tracks – just not reserved alone for CAHSR.
I have no idea if that’s right, but that’s the impression I’ve gotten.
wu ming Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
taiwan’s HSR line is running 6 tph and they’ve only been running for 3 years.
Peninsula Rail 2010 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Taiwan is second only to Bangladesh in population density; furthermore, almost all of its 23M population is on the west coast within 10-15 miles of its HSR line. I am not sure if Taiwan even has an internal air market; if so, it’s extremely marginal and non-competitive.
The atypical population density conditions of Taiwan simply don’t apply to the SF-SJ Peninsula. So Taiwan HSR’s 5-6 tph only demonstrate how hard it would be to sniff at even half of 12 HSR tph on the Peninsula. With Pacheco, it will be 1-2 HSR per hour for the first decade between SF-SJ. With Altamont, the tph would double with the Sacramento service.
wu ming Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
ps. writing lots of boldface and caps might impress the FUD crowd, but it’s a clear tell of a weak argument most other places on the intertubes.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
completely dedicated $4+ billion SF terminal station
Oh come now, some of that 4 billion is for the hapless East Bay residents who will forever more be banished to using the bus because there will be no place to put trains from their side of the Bay.
EJ Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Did you skip past the parts where he recommends building parkway stations at the outskirts of medium size cities and encouraging commercial development near them, rather than going through the city center?
And how it’s often perfectly fine to build terminal stations on spurs into large cities, where they’ll be bypassed by through trains?
This isn’t an endorsement of Tolmach’s proposal but I don’t think that’s what anyone is talking about here.
Brian Stanke Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
But why not run straight through when there are already TWO RR right of ways straight through every city? The are no impenetrable medieval centers in any Central Valley city.
California cities, except San Francisco, where built around rail lines, and because of them. That is not the case in Europe.
Clem Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Are we still having this argument?
Because running straight through will most likely require lowered speeds to mitigate noise and vibration, and expensive 100% grade separation through a dense (cartesian, not medieval) street grid.
Most European cities already have rail lines through their core, and yet through-HSR systematically goes around the periphery. Nobody can name a single European city where downtown is traversed by 300+ kph trains, for excellent reasons that are discussed at some length in the lecture. (but evidently don’t apply in California!)
P.S. I don’t favor Tolmach’s I-5 idea any more than you do, if that wasn’t clear. Going around CV towns does not automatically mean veering 30 miles away to I-5…
Peter Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
What about the cities in Japan where HSR goes through downtowns at full speed?
Clem Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
I don’t know as much about Japan as I do about Europe, but that’s a great question. Name one Japanese city where downtown is traversed by 300+ kph trains.
While I am 100% sure you can’t name one in Europe, I’m only 90% sure you can’t name one in Japan.
Alon Levy Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 12:22 am
Ichinoseki, Koriyama, and Fukushima currently have 275 km/h trains going through downtown without stopping, and will be upgraded to 300 next year and 320 in 2013. Oyama and Utsunomiya are currently at 240 but will get 275 starting next year.
K.T. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Nozomi passes near 300km/hr on Himeji, Aioi, and Shin-Kurashiki Station. I can name a couple more in Tokaido Line that passes near their maximum operating speed (270km/hr).
From the google earth, both side of the track seems to be fully developed for the three stations i mentioned above. However, I can’t quite tell whether the station is in bisecting the “downtown,” especially for the stations that does not have a good quality aerial image.
I hope this helps a little.
Leroy W. Demery, Jr Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:31 am
“The rest of the story,” Part 1, in Japan goes like this:
To an extent that some of those “allergy sufferers” refuse to admit, Japan did not build HSR for the sake of HSR. The primary reason was to provide additional track capacity. As in, “passenger and freight traffic levels had reached the limit of the capacity provided by existing infrastructure.”
A long-standing plan quadrupling of the existing Tokyo – Nagoya – Osaka line (the Tokaido Main Line, which, away from the largest cities, was and remains double track). Another long-standing plan was constructing of a new standard-gauge Tokyo-Osaka line; standard gauge would permit higher speed and provide greater capacity; more on that below. One must not forget the context of the times. The railway administration had wanted to pursue electrification of trunk lines from the 1920s. This was strongly opposed by the military, which was fast becoming a “state within a state.” The military did like the idea of gauge conversion; one advantage was greater “clearances” (… for certain types of military hardware, e.g. tanks). This, however, was rejected more than once by (civilian) govenrments on grounds of cost. The intrigue during this era included a plan (… dare I say, scheme …) to transfer a series of secondary lines from the government railway system to a private company, which would rebuild to standard gauge and electrify, creating an “independent” railway from Tokyo westward to Osaka, and eventually to Shimonoseki. There was even talk of an undersea tunnel to the Asian mainland.
The military was in firm control of the government by 1938. In 1939, the government announced a remarkable plan to build a new standard-gauge line or “Shinkansen” westward from Tokyo to Osaka, and eventually to Shimonoseki. Completion was planned by 1954. The planned maximum speed was 150 km/h (93 mph), with 200 km/h (124 mph) set as a future goal. At least some of the Tokyo-Osaka alignment was surveyed and land purchased, and construction was started in 1941. Work was suspended in 1943.
Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the plan: trains would be pulled by steam locomotives. The generals, some of them, anyway, remained firmly opposed to electrification. I have seen a copy of a wartime “samizdvat” publication in which a friend proposed a design for shinkansen steam locomotives, which he based on the New York New Haven & Hartford Railroad I-5 class (1400 series) 4-6-4 (“Pacific”) type locomotives built by Baldwin in 1937. The same gentleman designed the familiar rounded nose of the original “Zero Series” shinkansen cars – which he says was inspired by the New Haven I-5 class. (The American who would believe the previous sentence has probably not been born …)
Postwar recovery and economic growth brought the Tokaido Main Line to the traffic saturation point by the mid-1950s. The Tokyo-Osaka line was electrified in 1956, but even thereafter, the service was not notable for speed or comfort. It is not well known, for example, that one simply could not make a one-day return trip (e.g. for business) between Tokyo and Osaka by rail. Thus, many people traveled on overnight trains – at one point during the very early 1960s, there were roughly 12 overnight trains between Tokyo and Osaka.
The “four-track” vs. “new standard gauge” line debate started again ca. 1955. Nobuji “Shinji” Sogo, appointed Japanese National Railway president in 1955, was determined to build a standard-gauge high-speed line. Sogo, together with Hideo Shima, JNR Vice President for Engineering, quickly grasped a concept that others seemed (and seem) not to get:
“If traffic within an intercity rail corridor requires additional track capacity, then the additional tracks should be built to the highest standards affordable, and used to provide the fastest passenger timings practical between major destinations.” Doing this provides commensurate increases in benefits and profits that are sufficient to offset the greater cost of construction.
This I call the “Sogo Principle;” I have no evidence that he actually said this but it’s clear that he, Shima, and some (but not all) Japanese politicians understood it.
Now: This arcane debate over “full-speed” alignments through “city centers” in Japan is just that – arcane. No one in Japan would have thought to do anything other than serve the principal railway station in each city or town along the line – except in a very few cases where this was judged cost-ineffective. The extent to which visitors assume that the railway station – having the same name as the city – is in “the heart of town” has become something of a joke among expats. The “main” station in Kobe, for example, is not Kobe Station, but Sannomiya Station.
The Tokaido Shinkansen, among other things, generated a great deal of complaints because of train noise – and a great deal of litigation. One rather notorious example is (or was) an area where rice paddies did not give way to residential and commercial development until after shinkansen trains began operation. Such actions persist to this day, but courts have – thus far – refused to order slowing of trains.
It is well known that, as a whole, the Japanese stoically tolerated some of the world’s worst industrial and environmental pollution until the 1960s. Things changed rather dramatically thereafter – just as the government was pursuing shinkansen expansion. One major factor in slowing the large-scale nationwide shinkansen development plan was public protest. As a friend explained, shinkansen expansion plans provided “something to oppose.”
“Ichinoseki, Koriyama, and Fukushima currently have 275 km/h trains going through downtown without stopping, and will be upgraded to 300 next year and 320 in 2013.”
Don’t think for one second that this was accomplished without years of research and development on how to reduce propagation of noise and vibration by shinkansen trains – or that plans for faster operation of trains get approved without opposition.
One thing you might not see in the satellite photos are the sound walls along the Tohoku and Joetsu shinkansen lines. These were built mostly on high viaduct (when not in tunnel) and the sound barriers are a prominent feature.
Another thing you won’t see – or, more correctly, hear – are ambient noise levels.
“Nobody can name a single European city where downtown is traversed by 300+ kph trains, for excellent reasons that are discussed at some length in the lecture.”
I couldn’t get the lecture to work, but this is a “Well, doh.” European cities could accommodate HSR services on existing tracks. Japanese cities could not, and this would have been true even if track and loading gauges had been identical.
“And nobody can name a European city … where the sprawling exurbia surrounding that dense, vibrant, urban area is 20 miles across.”
With reference to Japan: Um, ever hear of Tokyo?
The northern suburbs might, or might not, extend out “20 miles.” However, the Tohoku Shinkansen alignment between Ueno Station and Omiya was the subject of much controversy during the 1970s. The English-language press stated that a speed limit was “imposed.” Well … the eventual compromise was construction of a new regional rail line on the shinkansen viaduct, construction of a new AGT line on another segment of viaduct – and, apparently, construction of the shinkansen tracks themselves for speeds significantly lower than those attained farther north.
Those allergic to Japanese examples, of course, will feel no need to consider any of the above.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Another thing you won’t see – or, more correctly, hear – are ambient noise levels.
What’s the ambient noise level out in the Central Valley where 99, UP’s freight line and two servcie roads run parallel to each other for miles?
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:30 am
When you elipses-ed my sentence you cut out the links to the barren, low-density, images of “downtown” Fresno and “downtown” Bakersfield, and ignored the giant freight ROW that is the defining feature of both, which then takes all the fun out of my sarcastic reference to the “dense, vibrant” urban areas of their city centers.
The point of my post, and of my part of the longer discussion going on on this board, is that looking to European solutions of beet-field stations near dense, compact cities like Reims is not terribly relevant when you look at the suburban geography of someplace like Bakersfield or Fresno where long, straight freight ROWs bisect low-density suburban sprawl, and where such sprawl is so pervasive that a “beet field” station along the periphery of said sprawl would put the stations so far from any of the residents of the city that ridership would be severely impacted.
The other option, proposed by RM and others, of putting a station downtown and also building a spur around the towns, such as was done in Zaragoza, might work for Fresno, where the line would only have to go 5-10 miles or so out of the way to bend around the western sprawl (since the bulk of Fresno’s sprawl has pushed northeast from the existing freight ROW), but would probably not work for Bakersfield, where the line would have to go nearly all the way over to the 5, or be built on viaducts and cut/fill through the foothills. While I agree that those options would be preferable for people living in those cities, I don’t agree with RM’s assertion that 20+ miles of new track and grade separations would be less expensive than a few miles of quad-tracked station turnouts.
If you were to pull that bypass in closer to the city center to make it shorter and more affordable, the sprawl is so bad that you’re going to end up running your bypass past a large number of houses. In fact, if you look at the ROW itself, and look at how far bakersfield and fresno sprawls, such a bypass could very well end up going by more houses than the “downtown” option.
I think they should build the downtown alignments and buy the Japanese rolling stock that, as you pointed out, has had a large amount of engineering put into it to reduce noise pollution.
Brian Stanke Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Ok where do we get the extra Billions to both go around Fresno and Bakersfield and through them as well? A downtown station plus bypass is MORE expense that running all four tracks through.
As for the “Nobody can name a single European city where downtown is traversed by 300+ kph trains” comment, plenty of people have named Japanese cities where that IS planned. So that argument is lost, by your side. 220 mph through cities is happening until a fairy godmother appears to pay for MORE expensive solutions, and there is more outrage from SF Bay Area “advocates” than actual CV mayors about this issue. They want the trains downtown.
Clem Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Extra billions? I was suggesting saving billions by not going into CV downtowns at all. A bypass is less expensive (taxpayers aren’t shafted) and it’s faster (HSR riders aren’t shafted). Keep HSR on the green checkerboard that you see in aerial views.
BruceMcF Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
HSR riders from Fresno and Bakersfield are shafted. And of course that means that potential HSR riders in Sacramento and San Diego are shafted, by cramping down on the operating surpluses available from Stage 1.
Joey Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Is it even possible to avoid Bakersfield?
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Not really. Certainly not in any practical consideration. The route they chose through downtown bako is “pre-blighted”. The sprawl in bako is so profound that even going along the periphery they would go past as many if not more houses than they’re going to go by downtown. If McNaughton’s observation that building a tangent station causes the area around it to be developed then 1) the trains can’t be that bad to be around, 2) bako’s downtown is precisely the kind of place to put the station.
Joey Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Actually Ashford International is pretty much right in the middle of the city, with the express tracks right next to the station. I’m not sure what speed the trains are traveling at there, however.
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
“Nobody can name a single European city where downtown is traversed by 300+ kph trains, for excellent reasons that are discussed at some length in the lecture.”
And nobody can name a European city where the “downtown” is bisected by wide, straight freight ROW and has density as low as this, or this, or where the sprawling exurbia surrounding that dense, vibrant, urban area is 20 miles across.
To bypass bako you’re going to have to go another 30 miles around, nearly back to the five. In Fresno, the UPRR line through Fresno is about as tangent as you’re going to get. It’s not like they’re proposing taking it through the BNSF ROW.
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
After all, you did say that putting an elevated through here is equivalent to “a four-track elevated viaduct rammed right past the Notre Dame de Reims cathedral”, which seems hyperbolic to say the least.
Clem Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
Guilty as charged–that was a bit over the top. No matter what words I used, the satellite photo says it all.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Yes, just look at all those broad, straight, right-of-ways filled with dead weeds surrounding the existing train tracks through areas dotted with spread-out, run-down warehouses….
Roger Christensen Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 11:09 am
Yesterday I was in Fresno and took the time to explore the right-of-way. Weed patchs and abandoned warehouses is the correct description.
I am assuming that the east side of the row is the most likely candidate – essentially along a lonely street called Weber. This becomes H St. downtown (Fresno’s first street, the site of the first SP station and the future HSR station). The city prefers the eastside of the UP for downtown development reasons. Also using the westside slices off a corner of Roeding Park.
The elevated section begins north of Clinton to accomodate the Clinton overpass. There are other overpasses (the highest being the 99/180 interchange).
The elevation continues south of downtown until the transition to the BNSF is complete.
I thought it looked reasonable.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Not sure if you got my sarcasm. Clem’s trying to say we should use the French example of Reims to a model for how we treat Bakersfield and Fresno, and I’m pointing out that fresno is nothing like Reims…. just in case he can’t tell the difference.
dejv Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 5:36 am
Reims: 188000 people in town that is around four miles wide.
Bakersfield: 333000/827000 people (city/metro), some 13 miles wide
Fresno: 1000000 people, again around 13 miles wide
Metro numbers are more appropriate in CA because suburbs are contiguous with their core cities. So, judging by these numbers, beetroot stations are nonsense because they mean inefficient connecting transit. There are only two options left: tangent, cutting just through suburbs and diametral, going near CBD’s. Given there are already ROWs going roughly diametral with generous clearances to neighbouring houses, it would seem crazy to pursue any other alignments. Map of Bakersfield shows that clearly.
Of course 20 m tall viaduct is nonsense. The wide ROWs just ask for landscaped bermed at-grade alignment or “cut in berm” design, both with native trees and shrubs.
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Do we know why they eliminated the at-grade option? too many freight turnouts to all those warehouses? UPRR not playing ball? I think that the “downtown” Fresno and Bakersfield alignments are the best of a suite of bad choices, but certainly at-grade would be preferable.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Because running at or near grade would disturb all the important economic activity in the abandond warehouses and parking lots along the tracks.
Of course, large parts of East Anglia would be “trashed” by a rise in sea level induced by global warming, and even the Thames Barrier might be in trouble, so you have to place such statements in context. Still, it’s an indication of the battles that lie ahead outside the cities.
English people in general feel fairly protective of the remaining areas of traditional and scenic countryside, and anything that’s perceived as “trashing” the Chilterns is going to get a lot of opposition from far more people than just the locals. That said , if the UK could manage to fund 12 miles of deep-bore tunnel to preserve the pristine scenic beauty of East London, they can probably come up with a solution that minimizes the impact of HS2.
James D Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 5:05 am
No, it’s just a vocal luddite/environmentalist lobby. The tide’s turning against them.
EJ Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
You may want to let the Chief Engineer for HS2 know about this startling development – he clearly doesn’t seem to think that people are going to stop caring about the Chilterns.
As for center city stations in Birmingham, and Edinburgh, these cities already have relatively central stations. I suspect a line of track would be replaced/upgraded and the central stations utilized for HSR, as well as regular railroads.
Glasgow and Manchester are concerns; they have central stations but they are terminals, and not through stations.
EJ Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:59 am
I don’t think anyone’s proposed extending the line north of Glasgow, so I don’t see why Central would be a problem. Manchester Piccadilly already has several through platforms, although it’s a terminus for most trains that stop there.
http://www.facebook.com/friends/?id=1652331324 (You do have to sign in).
Matthew F. Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 11:24 pm
So apparently my posts did eventually show up… hours later, in the wrong place.
To all,
The correspondence was published without my permission or contact by those news organizations requesting my permission to publish any such “Letter to the Editor”. I have asked for a full retraction and apology to me for this unprofessional and irresponsible action on the part of this news organization. However, the problems unearthed continue to point to complete incompetence in the way this modeling that was performed, consistent with the continuing record of gross mismanagement of this very important project, which I happen to support.
As to some of the uninformed comments above, I was not involved in MagLev planning, and do support investment in high speed rail for California. As to uninformed people who make judgements of intent, based on lists of people on social networking sites as confirmation of their bizarre conspiracy theories, I can only say, get a life
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
What kind of accountability and leadership would be required to turn this project back around? Do you have a person or a type of person in mind to be appointed head of the CHSRA? What should the California state legislature do right now?
Matthew F. Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
I’d hardly call it a ‘bizarre conspiracy theory’ to insinuate that a friend of someone who claims to support high speed rail while opposing every single aspect of the current project might be basing his arguments on the same opinions and discredited theories.
Good question Spokker-The Legislature should pass SB 409, while it has been watered down, it still contains some basic oversight and coordination language so that we can make this project work. I would also urge the legislature to consider adding an independent peer review process to assure adequate professional oversight. Another good idea I heard today at the Hearings in LA would be to have a real Secretary of Transportation, instead of BTH, which would report directly to the Governor and Legislature with oversight and accountability integrating all of our conflicting and competing Rail programs.
The fundamental concept of HSR is good, the project mismanagement we have repeatedly experienced is not. Taxpayers expect responsibility and accountability. And, California deserves a well planned, affordable, and realistic high speed rail system, which I absolutely support.
Too bad Matthew F. who is apparently afraid to use his real name while attacking me with his bizarre conspiracy theories. I do know Mr. Tolmach, I also know Mark Pisano, I also know Bob Poole at the Reason Foundation, it doesn’t mean I agree with or support their positions. So yes, as far as I can tell, your juvenile and speculative conspiracy theories are just that.
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
How about the route?
Ideas differ about what the ideal route should be. My opinion on Altamont vs. Pacheco has been shaken by the recent coefficient drama (gun to my head, I would go with Altamont, where before I didn’t really care either way), but it seems that serving Palmdale and Central Valley cities is worthwhile for a few reasons. Central Valley is poorly served by airlines. Palmdale is growing whether we like it or not. There appear to be problems with a Grapevine route. Also, I believe that the realities of politics in California sort of require the Central Valley’s support. But then again, who knows.
I am absolutely against LA-Anaheim at this time (MAKE THE SURFLINER FASTER, DUH) but if it is built I would put it at-grade through Anaheim. Pringle seems to think it will go underground though. He told me personally that he didn’t think tunneling was as expensive as people think. Shrug.
LA-Sylmar is starting to get interesting what with the conflicts between the HSR people and the LA River people.
Would appreciate your comments.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
As for “not using my real name”: You can hardly call me an anonymous poster when every one of my posts links to my homepage – check the domain if you’re interested in my full name. (OK, every post made from my own computer; I don’t log in to WordPress on the road, but I use the same name.)
I don’t know these people whose names you’ve dropped – I haven’t sat through a lifetime of meetings with them, I don’t have a history of handshakes to guide my opinions of them. All I have on which to judge them is their ideas and proposals.
As far as I can tell, you (and Tolmach) seem to dislike the CHSRA’s plan because its goal is to serve directly as many cities as possible.
I can respect it when it is phrased as a tradeoff between cost, speed, and convenient access. I just disagree, believing that convenient access is far more important to maximizing ridership (and therefore the long-term economic value of the system) than raw speed or initial cost. Particularly, I feel that an effective system minimizes transfers. Tolmach’s plan serves one customer exceptionally (Central LA to Bay Area), and the rest poorly. And it is that prioritization I disagree with.
(I recognize that so far, you have avoided taking any position, merely stating that it’s possible you might possibly disagree with Tolmach every now and then. If you feel I have mischaracterized the nature of what kind of a system you support, you are more than welcome to spell out what you WOULD like to see.)
If I want to travel from San Diego to Sacramento, Tolmach’s proposal has me making two transfers – instead of a one-seat route as proposed by the CHSRA. When you combine that with local transportation – Coaster to the Surfliner to the HSR to ACE to the Gold line – you’re talking 5 different trains. Those two extra transfers push that kind of trip – a very common case – into the “ridiculous” territory. That same “two-extra-transfers” approach applies to so much of the system that it would drive ridership into the ground.
However, while I am OK with disagreeing with such critics, I abhor the tactics that are being used – including by you, as you’ve already demonstrated multiple times in just a few posts on this site – to fight the proposal you disagree with. They conclude that a different priorities are equivalent to “mismanagement”, and spend all day throwing out the traditional mud-slinging terms like “boondoggle” and “pork” and “waste”. And then of course the ad hominum attacks like “Get a life”, “Bizarre conspiracy theory”, and “too afraid to use his real name”. I don’t need to call you anything – your own words show what kind of a person you are.
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
Hahaha you are accusing the guy of guilt by association and then you bitch about ad hominem attacks? Go practice posting on the Internet some more before you type up your next screed.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:47 pm
It would be “guilt by association” if his unfortunate rant had never been published. His arguments sound a lot like Tolmach’s.
You work with what you’ve got. Yes, I tend to form opinions on far too little data. I’ll be interested to hear his reasoning, and I will apologize with deep sincerity if my assumptions are incorrect.
spokker Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
And if you want to know his position, do what I’m doing and fucking ask. At least do that before going apeshit.
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
For people reading, the text of the bill, which would combine the CHSRA with Caltrans’ division of rail as a new agency, is available here, the authority’s take (they’re opposed), along with their current position on a number of other related bills is here. In particular, there is a competing bill, AB 1351, would put the CHSRA under the BTHA, but would not combine the Authority with the Caltrans Division of Rail as a new top-level agency.
My initial take is that combining the State’s rail agencies would make a large amount of sense, the kind of infighting we saw with Caltrans Vs. CHSRA for ARRA funds is bad for everyone. Sure there’s the risk that the new agency could de-prioritize HSR, or that a new governor could appoint an HSR hostile director. But all of that could happen anyway.
jimsf Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
I like the idea very much… combine division of rail and chsra. Its asking for trouble to have teh state’s transportation needs being addressed by multiple power hungry agencies… compete with each other for money and attention.
The state, is one state, which has state transportation needs. These include road, rail and air. While there may some question or fear about a single agency, “The Californian Department of Transportation,” being partial to one mode or another, based on who’s running sacramento at any given time, that’s no where near as bad as having competing agencies trying to undermine each others goals.
The public, is also fed up with layers and layers of duplicate agencies and the exponential costs of running those agencies, all of which suck up money like there’s no tomorrow will providing a fraction of their voter mandated, designated product.
Common sense says that any operator of high speed rail in california shouldn’t not operate separately from the rest of the state’s transit, but be fully integrated with Amtrak California,and Metrolink, the too largest, and to some extent, Caltrain, Coaster, MTA, and other state funded agencies.
jimsf Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
( sorry bout all the typos)
AndyDuncan Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
“Common sense says that any operator of high speed rail in california shouldn’t not operate separately from the rest of the state’s transit, but be fully integrated with Amtrak California,and Metrolink, the too largest, and to some extent, Caltrain, Coaster, MTA, and other state funded agencies.”
SB 409 would keep, for the new agency, the existing language that Caltrans is not allowed to operate any rail, they’re just allowed to build it. Operations would be contracted out, as they are now.
jimsf Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
RIght, well, california doesn’t operate rail now either. Its contracted out, mainly to amtrak as the operator, ( caltrain is is contracted to amtrak and so is metrolink, as of recently)
and yesm hsr operations will be contracted out as well. I understand that. But, operations are still subject to what the states goals are. Amtrak has the currently operating contract for rail in cali, but, the state still has oversight, still has a big say in what roles, duties, etc amtrak must fulfill in order to retain that contract. The same would be true of any other operator who successfully bids… be it regional rail or high speed service, they still have to meet the goals set forth by the state of california.
And caltrans division of rail, for expample, would likely be of the mind that any operator of hsr must meet the goals of an integrated statewide network. The state is not going to just hand over 40 billion dollars of brand new high tech infrastructure to SNCF or JR or anyone else and let them do whatever they want with it. Ha, not in california. No, any contractor is going to be handed a long list of things they must be able to do/provide if their bid is accepted.
jimsf Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Any operator of hsr in cali will also be subject to all the existing state laws which pertain to transportation as well. The state, while not on operator, still has a hand in setting fare structures, allowable non allowable travel, things like that. They have authority over which operator can offer what type of travel in any particular jurisdiction.
jimsf Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
and finally, you can be sure that in addition to any existing laws and goals the state may have, they will develop and maintain a firm hand, as firm as hand a they can legally place, on any private operator when it comes to day to day operations and goals. Any prospective or eventual operator will have to have, build, or maintain a good working relationship with Sacramento and all the players involved. They’ll need to know how not only to make nice to get the contract, but continue to make nice and agreeable for the long run if they want to keep it.
BruceMcF Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Ohio successfully rolled the Ohio HSR Commission together with two other DoT ongoing programs to form the Ohio Rail Development Commission.
I’ve not seen any special brilliance in the handling of issues by the CHSRA to suggest they need to be guaranteed their independence to continue delivering their brilliant handling of issues.
Indeed, trying to make the incompetent design of the Transbay Basement Train Station into an issue of the number of platforms seems in retrospect to have been as big a blunder as I argued at the time.
The route choice issue is a red herring. The route choice should consider the impacts and benefits of alternatives, but that component is ultimately a policy judgement. However, routing choices can and do affect distance, time, and operational performance criteria. Obviously, longer routes will require more track, structures, and resultant costs. But, longer routes which may also serve more travelers, by connecting more centers, may also lead to more benefits to offset those costs. The underlying problem with the planning has been a lack of effective analysis of those tradeoffs, and associated costs.
The planning for such a “system” should be based upon a well demonstrated purpose and need, this aspect of the planning has been done poorly on this project, thus far. A second problem is dictating the technical performance parameters “a priori” without having done the fundamental analysis of the costs and benefits of those parameters. Are the travel time savings and resultant additional riders worth the marginal cost? At what point are you just spending more money for that performance, and not getting any additional benefit from that more costly performance? The recent modeling scandal is yet another example of that failure in basic analysis, which leads to erroneous and unsustainable assumptions being used to plan and design the ultimate project.
To those who think that if you are critical of irresponsible or incompetent planning you are somehow against high speed rail, I can only say hogwash. Allegiance to a worthy and worthwhile project is not a justification for covering up poor management, poor planning, and dubious leadership. That would be just plain foolishness and/or would show a complete lack of ethical values. We need to fix this program to make sure that taxpayers are protected, expectations are real, the system we build works to meet the needs of Californian’s, and that it is economically sustainable. That is what we were promised, that is what we should insist upon.
Joey Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:57 pm
Hmm well, except for the first sentence, I can’t clearly see that you have taken a stance on any routing issue (not that that’s a bad thing – being able to acknowledge the costs/benefits of multiple routes is preferable to siding with one and defending it to the death).
All very good arguments in principle, but I don’t agree with the meat of it. I don’t feel the ridership estimates are inaccurate to the point of calling the financial viability of the system into doubt, and I have yet to see credible arguments from parties, neutral or otherwise, to that effect.
You’ve got a start – you’ve alleged a few problems. Now it’s time to come in and fill it out with your evidence. Not diatribes about “poor management, poor planning, and dubious leadership” – cite documents, studies done by other projects for comparison, survey data. Put up or shut up.
It’s much easier to make unfounded allegations. But you’re not going to convince anyone around here unless you start offering some data.
Matthew,
If all you can accuse me of is making arguments for using principles and well established planning methods. How much economic or transportation modeling have you done? I was recently asked to look at the evidence that came to light about these modeling findings, and thus far, it is apparent that the methodology was fatally flawed. Whether this analysis was the result of incompetence or malfeasance is irrelevant, it still exposes this organization to additional legal threats, delays, and was a gross waste of the public resources used. That is poor management at best, and unethical behaviour at worst.
Based upon my experience, it is my opinion, from what has been revealed thus far, that these estimates would fundamentally affect all subsequent technical and financial analysis that is derived from them. The modeling results which contain admitted significant errors, whether from “typos” or malfeasance, do appear to be so fundamental that they would bring into question any subsequent financial analysis or planning base upon them.
The trip costs are now prohibitively high, and yet we saw little or none of the deflection of ridership that we would expect based on most knowledge of price elasticity. The “typo” was an order of magnitude error apparent to anyone familiar with these techniques and familiar with similar analysis of other projects, and currently operating systems. The validation methodologies are now under scrutiny and on first appearance appear to be highly dubious. I am awaiting additional information on this, but the use of limited stated preference survey methodologies is not good practice, when significant empirical data sources are available.
As other commentor’s have noted, this is not the only problem, or concerns raised by slip shod planning, but this one is a glaring example of potential ethical malfeasance. This project needs independent peer review, as these repeated problems are costly, wasteful of public resources, and do more to hurt this project than any of the “rail haters”.
How many more teachers, firemen, or policimen should we lay off to pay to do this incompetent work over, and over, and over, and over again? How many times have we paid for a “business plan” only to find out it was improperly done? How many transit busses, light rail or commuter trains will we have to be cut to pay for the cost of the lawyers when the Southern California cities join the Northern California cities in the lawsuits over this mismanaged project?
I support high speed rail. I have a record of supporting the bond issue. I was on the team that lobbied for high speed rail as part of the stimulus program. I have a clear and well established record of supporting rail passenger and transit improvements for over forty years. That doesn’t mean I will remain silent when I see incompetence and waste of public resources out of some false political correctness. That would be unethical and unprofessional on my part. And worse, allowing this project to continue with this level of poor planning, incompetent management, and lack of oversight is guaranteed “not” give us an affordable or effective high speed rail passenger system.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 11:05 am
Bob, these are still accusations, not evidence. Can you use your erstwhile “extensive modeling experience” to offer some EVIDENCE? Numbers, Pages, Documents – Data, not more ad-hominum attacks.
So far, you seem far more interested in berating the project management and repeating tired mud-slinging cliches, than providing any actual evidence of wrong-doing. You’ve demonstrated that before the first number is seen, you’re prejudiced against them – hardly the hallmark of the unbiased analysis needed.
Again, if you want any respect here – SHOW ME THE DATA. Stop farting in my face and calling it roses.
Maybe you used to model transit data, but from your posts, it sounds like you’ve spent too many years in politics.
How dare I criticize Comrade Stalin? Or raise questions about the litany of issues this project has raised?
Your childish insults and tone show your true character, and your comments are not worthy of any further reply.
Have a good day.
BruceMcF Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
I think you are not hitting the “reply” link below the text that you are replying to … its impossible to tell precisely who you have analogized to Stalin, a dictator of a totalitarian with near absolute power at his height who was responsible for the deaths of millions.
Since there is nobody on this site who has the power to cause the deaths of millions, irrespective of whether they would if given the power, guessing who you are replying to is a bit difficult.
Your insulting tone says pretty much what anyone really needs to know about you. I don’t think there is anything I can say that is of any real interest to you, anyway. So have a nice day.
To those who recognize these serious problems at CHSRA and are working to resolve them, I say thank you. To those who fealty to this project, no matter the questions raised, is based on some type of “true believer” or “political correctness” mentaility, there’s really not much I can do for you. If you’re just another nose at the public trough it probably doesn’t mean much either, unless you are eating the seed corn, and doing your best to kill public confidence in the project by these kind of stunts.
If you actually support high speed rail, and not some endless trough to be slopped with taxpayer dollars, then you understand that immediate and fundamental reform is required. If not, then nothing I say would matter anyhow.
As more information is dragged, kicking and screaming, from this agency that can be analyzed, I am sure that many of those who seem to know something on this site, will be able to offer better insights, constructive criticism, and recommend ways to fix this mess. What we have seen thus far, does not pass the smell test, as another poster rightly noted.
I guess that is is why I am in such bipartisan “bad company” as folks as diverse as Bob Huff and Alan Lowenthal in raising fundamental questions on this important issue of basic public accountability.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Yet another admission that you have no evidence – or you would have given it. How many long-winded posts is this now? Five Posts, Dozens of Accusations, Zero Evidence.
If you do leave, we will be no more in the dark for your absence. If you ever do feel like posting a report of your analysis of ridership estimates, you will be welcomed. But as long as you continue to insist that you somehow know the project is flawed, all the while refusing to provide any evidence, you will be given no regard.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
By the way, what exactly was your role in the boondoggle that is the Gold Line Metro?
spokker Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Don’t start talking shit about the Gold Line now. That line rules. It’s just that white people won’t ride it until gas is 12 bucks a gallon.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Race-based attacks? Nice. You just keep upping the class meter around here.
I’ve ridden the line before (to Pasadena), and I agree that there’s a lot to like about it.
But running tracks down the center of freeways, as they do from Old Pass to Sierra Madre, just isn’t going to bring in the riders. Psychologically, the time you spend waiting on the platform – say, 10 minutes – is stretched subjectively into “a long time” because of the constant rush of fast-moving cars right in front of you. Isolating the station thousands of feet from the nearest possible destination doesn’t help any, either. It basically turns light rail into a park-n-ride – and maybe that’s OK, maybe that’s the only way to alleviate freeway congestion. But it’s a short-term fix to a long-term problem of an auto-centric culture.
spokker Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
It’s just a joke, asshole.
Matthew is absolutely correct about you Bob Huddy. You dance around and do not provide anything to back up your stance, then point the finger back at an individual who is asking for backup data by saying he is insulting. Another dance.
Please provide links or concrete data for your accusations so the rest of us can understand your side of the story?
Dozens of pointless insults? Now, I even stand accused of delivering real and successful projects? How many rail or tranist projects, studies, or policies have you worked on that were successfully delivered?
I think that others on here have done a more than adequate job in earlier posts on posting the specific errors in the calculations, and the specific multipliers used that contained these order of magnitude errors. So my reposting that now admitted error does nothing to enhance or refute the issues I’ve raised. That type of error is simply unacceptable, and, at least to me, yet another example of repeated incompetence.
What is it that will make you two happy, now that even the CHSRA admits these errors in the results and says they were a result of “typos”? I suspect nothing, as you seem to feel this is level of error is an acceptable professional practice? When we get the validation methodology in more detail there will be more to comment on. They don’t seem to want to be too forthcoming, so that may take a while.
You two are now boring me with your insults and you really have no other agenda, except your ad hominen attacks, and have no real defense for the errors, that even CHSRA has publicly admitted to.
So when you have a professional and/or ethical defense, for your apparent view, as to why people should be allowed to continue to use analysis they now admit was significantly in error, to plan a 40 to 80 billion dollar project, risking public funds, you make that case?
That sounds pretty unacceptable to me, but maybe you two can show me how using tainted analysis is a good thing?
Joey Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Is there evidence to suggest that the wrong coefficient was used in the actual analysis? The official statement implies that it was only the final writeup that reported the coefficient incorrectly.
YesonHSR Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
So if this current HSR plan is terrible what year do you think we would get HSR if we started over? 2030? thats far to long. The current route is fine thou I would agree that LA-ANA is a way overbuild just up grade it..same with Caltrain try and do the grade seperations and such so at least 2 HSR trains per hour go all the way to TBT. The valley needs this route the most not just LA-SF on I-5 routing. It far along to just make huge changes..thou refinments and maby a liitle less over the top construction is called for..but just stopping it because every part of the project is not like by these rail groups that are “pro-HSr” will kill it for everyone for decades
Matthew F. Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
The error was in the report about the model, not in the model itself. Is that all you’ve worked yourself into a frenzy over?
I bring up the gold line because I’ve seen your name (or, I’m not sure, maybe it’s your father’s name) associated with the planning of the project…. and I think it’s ironic that someone who helped design ridership estimates for a project where ridership has come in at about a third what was projected is casting aspersions on some else’s ridership estimates.
who knew a coefficient was so important. Is all this really necessary? Why can’t we just built this based on common sense?
There’s lot of people. And lots more on the way. The people need to go places. Trains are very good at that. = build the train and make sure it goes where the people are who are going to use it.
There. Study complete.
Matthew F. Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Well, the principle of the argument makes sense: If you make a big show of selecting the best route based on a model that was designed to tell you the best route is the one you wanted in the first place, it would be intellectually dishonest, and can be abused to justify an uneconomical plan. To quote XKCD, “You don’t use science to show that you’re right, you use science to become right.”
I just don’t see any evidence that this is in fact what happened. And our friend Bob certainly hasn’t offered any.