Thoughts on the Palo Alto Hearing
It was a very interesting (and long) evening in Palo Alto, with lots of fodder for blog commentary. I’m going to have to keep some of this brief for now in order to get through it all, and will expand on certain points in posts over the weekend.
Some key things that we learned from the meeting:
HSR support is much broader and deeper than the opponents and critics would have you believe. The room was packed with HSR backers, well over half the audience. Many left after the 9PM break, so the overall comments delivered skewed towards the critics and deniers, but many of those whose names were called and who weren’t there were supporters. The Alliance for Sustainable Transit and Jobs did amazing work on getting the word out on this meeting, and many of their members gave powerful comments in support of the project. They are truly are a game-changing addition to the cause.
Our voice was strong and our arguments powerful. The unions, one after another, pointed out the truly dire employment situation on the Peninsula. The state’s official unemployment rate is 12.4%. But in construction, it is closer to 30%. That is, as many union reps said, an outright “depression” for construction work.
Others pointed out that there were doubters of other infrastructure projects we now see as utterly foundational to our economy and way of life, from the transcontinental railroad to the Golden Gate Bridge to the Interstate Highway System. The TGV had its doubters. But none of us would today claim we would have been better off if we didn’t build it.
Two people deserve to be singled out here. One is Brian Stanke, Executive Director of Californians For High Speed Rail (I’m the chairman of the board for CA4HSR). Stanke explained that in 2008, voters were asked to approve a project that wasn’t fully funded, whose key details hadn’t been decided, in the midst of a severe recession and state budget crisis. And voters said “yes.” Voters understood exactly what they were doing in November 2008 when they approved Prop 1A, and they very much want HSR to happen.
The other is Emily Lam, who lives near the Hillsdale Caltrain station. She explained that she bought a house recently near the tracks – and she wants HSR to run through her backyard. “We need to think beyond our narrow self interest,” she explained, which drew scowls from many of the NIMBYs, who thrive on tenaciously defending their own self-interest at the cost of others.
Assemblymember Cathleen Galgiani made the trip out from Tracy to speak on behalf of the project, and she made some other excellent points about the cost of doing nothing, and defended the Authority’s work to date.
San Carlos vice-mayor Omar Ahmad gave an excellent presentation on the rail overpasses in his city, explaining how they have generated economic value – property values near the tracks are higher than they were before the grade-separation – and improved safety dramatically, an important consideration in Palo Alto. Ahmad said that not everyone is happy with the berm, but that it was a tradeoff and done in a way that was buildable and generally acceptable.
As I predicted yesterday, the hearing was a coming out party for HSR supporters. The battle has finally been joined.
Simitian and Lowenthal are key figures, but their concerns are different. Both of them are going to play a big role in how the HSR project moves forward. Neither are easily pinned down – Simitian seems a stronger supporter than Lowenthal, who appears to me to be just barely on this side of being an outright HSR denier.
But their concerns are different, meaning different approaches need to be taken. Lowenthal is hung up on the question of ridership. If and when the Authority can offer a clearer set of numbers, he might be more easy to handle. He still worryingly seems to want to use the Prop 1A bond to build glorified commuter rail, and doesn’t appear to get the need for or importance of a statewide system.
Simitian on the other hand seems most interested in the financial issues and the business plan. Obviously ridership is part of that, but he wants to make sure that the state isn’t going to be on the hook for any more money than what was authorized in the Prop 1A bond.
However, they aren’t unbiased. Neither one had ANY questions of the PCC folks (Palo Alto mayor Pat Burt and Menlo Park mayor Richard Cline), but grilled both Jeff Barker and Bob Doty. As I pointed out in my comment, someone needs to conduct oversight of local government as well as the CHSRA, to ensure that local governments aren’t getting away with presenting misleading information, as they clearly did last night with their deeply flawed ridership chart (more on that below).
There are two kinds of HSR critics: Outright deniers, and those who seek to find weak points in the implementation. Many of the commenters were outright HSR deniers, people who don’t think it’s worth the money, think it’ll destroy their communities, don’t think anyone will ride it, on and on. Some of them said truly offensive things: one man called HSR a “tar baby,” a term generally assumed to have racist connotations. Another woman said “we might as well lie back and get raped” by HSR.
Alongside these wackos are another group – those who criticize the project by zeroing in on its weak points in an effort to try and undermine HSR and get it to not be built, in whole or in part. While they get less press, they are the more effective of the two groups of HSR critics. Not all HSR critics are project opponents – the women of CARRD say they don’t oppose HSR and are primarily out to ensure it’s not built above grade. While I suspect they wouldn’t be upset if the project died, and while they have a tendency to frame issues in the worst possible light for HSR, they’re at least reasonable people. And therefore, somewhat effective in getting their ideas across.
The HSR battleground is starting to shift. Whereas in early 2009 it was primarily framed in NIMBY terms, here in 2010 the debates seem more technical in nature – how to fund the project? How to build it? This is much more favorable ground for us HSR supporters, yet it is not without considerable risks. It is at this stage that transit planning can sometimes go badly awry, as extremely bad decisions get made to appease this or that group, at the expense of ridership or cost savings. Holding the line over the next 2 years is going to be critical to ensure the budget isn’t busted.
Ridership is still a major point of contention – but is misunderstood. Alan Lowenthal opened by saying he liked HSR as a concept but said the CHSRA ridership numbers “didn’t pass the smell test” – which gave a big opening to the HSR opponents. Problem is, nobody EVER, once, explained WHY the ridership numbers are flawed. It was constantly asserted, but never explained.
The worst offenders, by far, were the Peninsula Cities Coalition. They presented a powerpoint, which isn’t yet available, that showed 2008 Amtrak boardings at certain NEC stations, compared those to 2035 projections at those stations, and compared those to 2035 projections for CA HSR. One of these showed 24,000 daily boardings in SF, but only 11,000 in NYC. Palo Alto mayor Pat Burt pointed to the Gilroy estimates of about 4,000 daily boardings per day as an example of how the CHSRA ridership numbers were supposedly “absurd.”
Yet Burt didn’t explain WHY that was absurd. We were supposed to just accept, on its face, this hugely flawed and misleading comparison between a weak quasi-HSR system and a fully-fledged bullet train that is more properly and more accurately compared to the TGV, the Shinkansen, or the AVE.
Nor did he delve into the matter of why Gilroy might conceivably have 4,000 daily boardings (for example). Gilroy might be the center of significant growth in south Santa Clara County and San Benito County over the next 25 years. More importantly, Gilroy will be the main HSR station for those people coming to and from Santa Cruz and Monterey, major tourist destinations and regions with a combined population of about 1 million right now. So the notion of 4,000 daily boardings on HSR is plausible, especially if HSR is used by people to commute up to points northward.
On the other hand, the Gilroy numbers might not hold up. But you have to explain why and how they don’t add up. The PCC and Senator Lowenthal just assume we’ll accept their assertion that the numbers don’t make sense. Sorry, that’s not how it works. If you want the CHSRA to explain their estimates better – a reasonable request – you are also obligated to explain your criticisms of those estimates.
More importantly, the whole question of “ridership” is being totally misunderstood. Too many people are using it to try and make the Authority and the project look bad or flawed, instead of using it to improve the project.
Ridership estimates are that – merely estimates. There is no one single magic number that has to be reached. Ridership estimates only matter in relationship to your funding mechanism. How many riders do you need to generate an operating surplus? That isn’t difficult, since every HSR system in operation generates an operating surplus. Virtually all of them have met their ridership goals, even if it took up to 5 years (remember the five year curve).
Ridership is a function of your funding plan, not a driver of it. If you want to build tunnels up and down the Peninsula, then you need to get the ridership to pay for it. If you want a bunch more private money than you’d originally intended, you need to get the ridership to pay for it. If you want to instead of low fares, high service, and a lot of public money for the project, you need to get the ridership for it. And the level for each scenario is necessarily going to be different, and any change from one to the other isn’t some kind of sign that the project is flawed.
The Authority has shown its numbers. Some want to see explanation of how those numbers were arrived at. That’s fine. But too much of the criticism is of the “omg nobody will ride trains in California” variety, or “there’s no way we can outperform Amtrak” when in fact that is precisely what WILL happen and there is ample reason to expect it to happen.
Keep in mind that not all of the ridership criticism is coming from totally unbiased sources. PCC has a vested interest in showing the numbers don’t add up. As DoDo showed, in the 1970s French TGV opponents produced ridership numbers far below the SNCF estimates – and that turned out to be far below the actual ridership numbers that came in once the TGV opened in 1981.
I expect that Lowenthal and Simitian will insist the CHSRA have the ridership numbers independently audited, which is fine. But it doesn’t address the deeper issue, which is how the train will be funded. Instead of acting as passive judges, the legislature should be proactive in helping ensure HSR is indeed properly funded at the construction phase. If it is, then these concerns become much less nettlesome.
CSS is popular, but nobody agrees on what it actually is or means. Everybody likes Context Sensitive Solutions. The CHSRA, Caltrain, the legislature, project opponents, critics, and supporters. What’s not to love?
The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be conceptual agreement on what it actually means or how it actually should work. CA4HSR’s vice-chair Dan Krause spoke in favor of potentially going mile-by-mile and doing a close look at each part of the project, which is a good idea. But others seem to think CSS is their platform to try and change the route (it’s not) or insist that it’s a tunnel or nothing.
There seem to be unresolved issues over the CSS process itself – how often the meetings are happening, things of that nature. Resolving that is preferable to ensure a good public process occurs. But I worry that everyone expects CSS to produce the outcome that best suits their preconceived notions, and it won’t. I hope CSS isn’t being set up to fail.
HSR critics and opponents are now targeting the federal stimulus money. One new revelation introduced by Pat Burt in the PCC presentation was that they think the federal stimulus timeline is “rushing” things and that slowing down would be better, even if it meant not going for stimulus funds.
There’s really only one response to this: Are you nuts? That’s $3 to $4 billion in federal funding that’s being jeopardized and/or rejected by this attitude. It’s as if Palo Alto and Menlo Park city leaders are oblivious to or unsympathetic to the widespread unemployment that many workers and constituents are suffering.
As to the notion of delaying the stimulus deadlines (project plans by September 2011, steel in the ground by September 2012), this is simply not going to happen. I floated this by some contacts I have on Capitol Hill this morning, and their response was to laugh at the suggestion. Obama and the Congress staked a lot on getting that money out the door quickly, and even the 2011/2012 deadlines for HSR were a push. If they pushed those deadlines back further, they open themselves up to Republican criticism that the “stimulus” is just pork. So it is very, very unlikely that the deadlines will be pushed back.
It’s called “stimulus” for a reason – the economy is in a dire state, and jobs are desperately needed. We can ensure that HSR is designed well, with meaningful public input, while moving with all deliberate speed to get this project moving.
Peninsula residents haven’t made their case to the people of California. There was an interesting moment in Menlo Park mayor Rich Cline’s presentation, where he said that “bloggers don’t have to worry about finances the way city officials do” and that “We need to make sure that we don’t get leveraged against a tunnel because Californians think we’re picking their pockets” (both are my paraphrases).
Which suggests to me the Peninsula residents critical of or opposed to the HSR projects have totally failed to make their case to the rest of the state, and perhaps see no need to do so. Your humble blogger is a taxpaying resident of the state of California, so I very much have a financial stake in this. So do the other 6.5 million people who voted “yes” to Prop 1A.
And of course, people think Menlo Park is trying to “pick our pockets” because that’s precisely what they want to do. In the 1960s, the city of Berkeley raised taxes in order to fund a bond issue to put BART underground. Neither the state nor the rest of the Bay Area did it for them. Yet Menlo Park’s approach appears to be to demand that the state or feds pay for their tunnel, which is neither fair, practical, nor realistic.
If they want a tunnel, I don’t object to that concept. But they have to come up with a credible answer to the question of how it will be funded. So far, they haven’t done so.
Ending the train at San José is still popular, although clearly illegal. I was a bit surprised at how many people called for terminating the train at San José. This idea is quite easily dismissed. First, it’s illegal. Prop 1A explicitly said the terminus would be at the Transbay Terminal in San Francisco, something that the Attorney General’s office agreed with earlier this month. For people who complain about the “illegal” parts of the business plan to then turn around and say that we should stop at San José is hypocritical.
It’s an impractical idea too. Ridership drops off dramatically if you terminate at Diridon Station – folks won’t transfer to Caltrain. Caltrain isn’t designed as an intercity rail service, it’s designed as a commuter railroad. And without riders, the finances don’t work out. Again, people who complain about ridership and funding have no basis to propose doing things to the HSR system that would undermine both.
It’s also nonsensical. Many of the “end it at San José” people said we should electrify and grade-separate Caltrain. Um, if that happens, why not just send the HSR trains up to SF?! I just don’t get it.
The “revote” concept is growing in popularity among the deniers and critics, despite it being extremely unlikely. Look, I’d love to have a revote on the 2000 presidential election. It produced a fiscally reckless outcome that ultimately destroyed our economy and left our country in tatters. Same with the 2003 recall – can we redo that too? While we’re at it, I’d like a revote on the 1980 election, Prop 13 in 1978, the 1968 election, and definitely the 1950 California US Senate election (does anyone here disagree history would have been better off had Helen Gahagan Douglas beaten Richard Nixon? Didn’t think so).
But as Simitian said last night, “elections have consequences.” California voters approved this project. It’s going to happen. Trying to go back to the ballot until you get the result you want on something like this just doesn’t make sense.
Now some of you might say “but Robert, you work for the Courage Campaign, an organization that calls for going back to the ballot to repeal Prop 8. Isn’t that inconsistent?” The answer is no, it is not, because these are two totally different things. You cannot compare an infrastructure project to people’s basic rights. Prop 8 should never have been allowed on the ballot, and will hopefully be ruled unconstitutional by the federal courts shortly – whereas Prop 1A should have been on the ballot and is a perfectly legitimate thing for the people of California to approve. But it is a fundamentally different set of issues than an infrastructure project. They really ought not be compared directly.
In closing, while I know I’ve left a ton of stuff out that I’m sure you’ll go over in the comments, it was another sign that HSR really is going to happen, and overall a very positive evening for the project and its supporters.

Wow Robert, your cockeyed view of the world is stunning. The room was packed with HSR supporters because the room was loaded with union laborers. Loaded and coordinated by whom? (Gee, Lets take a wild guess. Anyone sitting in the back of the room could watch the meet and greet between labor and CHSRA officials.) Shoot you were even taking pictures with them. And even a child knows that when a union says jump, their union labor says how high. The truth is, the show of force from the unions was not about supporting this HSR plan, as much as it was bully tactics to show the democratic senators the unions are lining up with big sticks behind CHSRA – and sure, that doesn’t have corruption written all over it.
Overall though, the union ‘jobs at any cost’ message was weak in inefectual, not the least because HSR done correctly can create just as many jobs. (or jobs building water infrastructure, or jobs building local transportation, or jobs building schools, etc). Also, labor was in an obviously uniformed position of asking for the stimulus money to be rushed to CHSRA so they could put their labor to work immediately, like in 2010. Even in CHSRA’s wildest dreams, no one goes to work (except ED lawyers), until late 2011 at best, and everyone (except these poor pawns) understands that. Except that that wont happen either, because we all know that the federal stimulus request violates AB3034.
Lastly, wonder if any of these labor unions have asked Galgiani how many Californian jobs are being created, when and of what type, and what duration? Because Galgiani is 3 for 3 in legislative comittee testimony over the last two weeks bragging about the MOU relationships with foregein governments and foreign rail companies. The US government is getting ready to set up the ARRA stimulus HSR bread line, any wonder the foreign HSR companies are lining up with their hats out? Maybe these California Unions should start holding CHSRA’s feet to the fire for California job creation with their tax dollars. If there’s one thing I KNOW unions don’t like is sending US jobs to foreign countries.
Joey Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Uhm … have you even looked at any of the details? Consider the types of contracts foreign countries are interested in – consulting, rolling stock, signaling … all stuff that no one in the USA really has any idea how to do. The actual construction is going to be done by Americans (what did you think they’d ship thousands of workers from overseas for this?). And that’s not to mention all of the permanent jobs in operating and maintaining the system that will be created. Unions have every reason to support HSR.
Peter Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:36 pm
They could just move all the workers that built China’s HSR system to build CA’s, right?
Joey Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Yeah but somehow I doubt it.
Peter Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Hehehe
Peter Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:37 pm
OMG, union reps know and are on speaking terms with politicians? Stop the presses! Extra, extra, read all about it!
HSRComingSoon Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 6:20 pm
If HSR is good about thinking ahead, they will require the builder of rolling stock to do in CA and the federal government will have an agreement about technology transfers. Hey, if China can do that, then why not the U.S.? Or better yet, Siemens, Alstom, Talgo, Bombardier, etc. can establish a U.S. division right here in CA to build and fabricate rolling stock that can also be used for other U.S. high speed rail projects. Lastly, I think these companies will have to do some of, if not most of what I suggested because of “buy American” rules, which if rolling stock is built in CA, then that rule won’t apply.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Siemens, Alstom, Talgo, Bombardier, already have plants in the US. No need to build a new one in California for a small one time order.
jimsf Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 6:45 pm
@OBSERVER As a union worker I find your comments to be pretty offensive Observer. In 20 years, no one has ever told me to jump and I have never asked how high. No one tells me to do anything. I have never been nor could I ever be, coerced, by the union, or management t do or say anything that wasn’t of my own volition. You’re nothing but a common turncoat if you don’t support american workers, and american jobs. People like you make me sick.
jimsf Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 6:46 pm
you’re an ignorant sob.
“Anyone sitting in the back of the room could watch the meet and greet between labor and CHSRA officials.”
At the Anaheim meeting CHSRA officials were meeting and greeting with residents who opposed the line. Curt Pringle even stayed afterward to talk to people. Good job with your cockeyed view of the world, though.
I still say eliminate Caltrain as we know it from SF to Gilroy in favor of complete HSR. Propose/build some infill HSR stations at current Peninsula Caltrain stations that are heavily used, have a “local” HSR from SF to SJ, and implement rapid-bus transit along the El Camino for those short haul commuter trips/feed HSR. You don’t need full-fledged commuter rail to travel 2-5 miles on the Peninsula. Also would keep current right of way to 3-tracks (2 HSR, one UPRR). Just a thought.
Spokker Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 6:01 pm
AHHH!!! A corrupt HSR ghost blogging booster is here!!! Run!!!
Evan Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Not that I like the idea, but it is an interesting concept.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 6:33 pm
It’s interesting. It’s also batshit insane. Caltrain is important as an HSR feeder and gets people to work.
Think of it this way: the demand for commuter rail on the Peninsula is such that if Caltrain were eliminated, HSR would have to run a lot of rush hour specials just between SJ and SF to satisfy commuter demand. It would even have to be four-tracked to satisfy all this demand, and it would need to have the local trains stop frequently, every 5 km instead of 20; they wouldn’t interfere with the intercity trains because of four-tracking, and they’d get people to where they want to go, which is not just SF and RWC and Millbrae. In other words, it would be Caltrain.
January 22, 2010
California High-Speed Train Update
Call for Heavy Maintenance Facility Sites Attracts Significant Interest
FIFTEEN PROPOSALS SUBMITTED FOR TRAIN MAINTENANCE FACILITIES
January 22, 2010
California High-Speed Train Update
Call for Heavy Maintenance Facility Sites Attracts Significant Interest
FIFTEEN PROPOSALS SUBMITTED FOR TRAIN MAINTENANCE FACILITIES
The California High-Speed Rail Authority Board recently issued a Request for Expressions of Interest (RFEI) to identify potential locations for maintenance facilities along the planned high-speed train route. While maintenance centers will be required throughout the state, a heavy maintenance facility is expected to be situated in the Central Valley because of its central location at the heart of the system.
The Authority sought proposals from local governments, public transportation agencies, private companies and others for both heavy and other maintenance facilities that could meet the Authority’s requirements, minimize environmental impacts and offer the financial incentives and other economic benefits to the state and local communities.
“We’re very impressed with the strong support for the high-speed train project and response to our search for appropriate places to locate train maintenance facilities,” said Mehdi Morshed, executive director of the High-Speed Rail Authority. “It’s clear from the response that people understand these facilities and this train project will have profound economic stimulus and job creation impacts.”
Fifteen expressions of interest have been received to date from the following parties:
For Heavy Maintenance Facility:
* Greater Merced High-Speed Rail Committee (Two proposals submitted.)
* Madera County Economic Development Commission and the City of Chowchilla (Three proposals submitted.)
* The City of Chowchilla and the property owners (Harris and DeJager)
* Madera County Economic Development Commission, the City of Chowchilla, and Kojima Development
* Madera County Resource Management Agency
* Fresno Works, County of Fresno
* Kings County Economic Development Corporation
For Heavy Maintenance and Maintenance of Way facilities:
* Kern County, Kern Council of Governments, and the City of Shafter
* Kern County, Kern Council of Governments, and the City of Wasco
For Maintenance of Way Facility:
* City of Gilroy Community Development Department
* San Joaquin Regional Rail Commission
* MUSE LLC
These expressions of interest are the first step in the environmental review process towards determining the best feasible and practical location. No final selection of maintenance facility sites will be made until the completion of the environmental review process, which at the earliest will be next year.
Proposals received will be available to the public.
One of these showed 24,000 daily boardings in SF, but only 11,000 in NYC.
I’m assuming 11,000 per day is the average for Acela. There’s 8.7 million Amtrak boardings per year in NYC ( as of 2008 ) or roughly 23.000 per day. So 11,000 first class and business class boardings in NYC. there’s another 12,000 coach passengers in NYC on the regionals and long distance trains.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 10:59 pm
New York has 12,000 boardings per day, total. But it’s not surprising that SF should be higher, since the level of service is going to be higher.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Exactly. The PCC didn’t explain that rather crucial difference. It’d be one thing if the PCC were an independent group of people, but the PCC presentation was delivered by the mayors of Menlo Park and Palo Alto. They should be expected to provide accurate information that takes into consideration those sorts of key details, just as they rightly expect the CHSRA to do.
Spokker Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 11:40 pm
From Amtrak:
“Fiscal 2008 Usage of Selected Northeastern Stations
Includes all boardings and alightings:
New York Penn Station 8.739 million”
That’s not including all of the commuter trains that operate from Penn Station.
They are trying to lowball New York ridership so they can say, “See, the CHSRA’s ridership estimates really are messed up!” when in fact those numbers are completely out of context or possibly made up.
Spokker Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 11:51 pm
And even if we are talking about just Acela, their trains are largely hourly with longer headways on weekends and the top and average speed is much lower. They’ve still got over the half the market share between New York and Washington and just under half from New York to Boston.
If Acela was true high speed not a single goddamn person would fly between New York and DC.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 7:02 pm
If nobody flew on the NEC but rode trains instead, the Acela and Regional trains together would still get only about 3-4 million extra riders, and New York would only see about 30% more boardings.
However, if Acela speeds were boosted to the same average that’s expected for California, NY-DC and NY-Boston express trains would take about 1:26 each, in which case Penn Station would see far more than 30% extra riders.
as for 4000 per day in gilroy. not so outlandish really. First think ahead 20-25 years, once weve been through a couple more boom/ growth cyclesa and the pop. of the GRY/MRY/SNS area has increased. Then, consider that it will be a transfer point for coast starlight service, surfliner service, caltrain service, future coastal service, future monterey area service, and expanded caltrain service. Add to that, the fact that it will continue to be a major tourist destination ( and I send people there via rail everyday as it is and more will go if they can get there more easily) all that considered and then figure service for say 20 out of 24 hours and you get 200 people per hour and with 4 trains in each direction per hour ( 8tph) you get 200 people per hour, or 25 people per train. not so unrealisitc after all.
Joey Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 7:29 pm
4000 is more than a lot of BART stations get..
That means nothing though.
Arthur Dent Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 7:31 pm
What kind of parking structure would hold that kind of volume? I could try to imagine it, but no doubt the CHSRA and their amazing consultants would out do my worst fears, kind of like what they did with Fresno’s 60 foot aerials.
Joey Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Not all of them will be driving, and many will not be traveling alone…
Arthur Dent Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 7:52 pm
I feel better already.
Peter Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:02 am
Many of them would be taking Caltrain (or whatever service operates the route) from Salinas/Monterey.
The Amtrak numbers are both people getting on and off. So assuming boardings = 50% the 11mm is correct.
Jim, be insulted all you want. That’s what happened, and Robert’s not going to deny that they packed the auditorium with union laborers, who frankly don’t give a crap where its built, how much it costs, who’s downtowns are trashed, or how high the platforms are. What they care about is jobs at any cost (which they spoke to specifically last night, so don’t be too offended by that), and jobs now. Neither of which they’re getting with this project, even if the feds offer up $8B tomorrow. IM offended that Galgiani is not telling these good hardworking folks the truth about the job creation impacts. And jim, I’m a lifelong voting democrat that donated to the DNC in 2008, I’ve been out of work for more than 7 months. Don’t give me your crap about how offended you are by MY snobery. And by the way, the DNC has called me back several times in the past year to renew my support, and I tell them to go to hell until HSR is cancelled because a bunch of arrogant pricks in California are running our towns into the ground with their half baked schemes. I WOULD support HSR, if they were using even a bit of common sense. They’r liars and thieves, and I COMPLETELY understand why Massachusetts voters turned.
Funny thing is – Pringle is a republican? He’s probably laughing his head off. He wins either way, right?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 10:27 pm
You have to realize that if it’s framed as a bunch of Menlo Park residents placing concerns about how their downtown looks over jobs, then you’re going to lose every single time, because the rest of California is not going to stand for it. I was very surprised to hear Palo Alto mayor Pat Burt propose delaying the stimulus deadlines, since that is a loser of a position to take.
jimsf Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 11:35 pm
you dont care about “our towns” you care only about your taxes and your back yard and the fact that you probably think high speed rail will take money from one of your preferred expenditures.
Peter Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:04 am
You don’t imagine that the unions might actually care about the future growth of the state, or that their members would have guaranteed jobs for a number of years, do you?
wu ming Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 9:07 pm
funny, i always thought workers were citizens too. “those people” also get a vote, y’know.
Observer, what another weak argument. Why should we just sit along and let the opposition whine and complain?
“who frankly don’t give a crap where its built”
Even if it was in the rurual areas of another state? I don’t think so. Job creation can be a slow and tedious process. Right now, the planning is still being finalized so that there will not be the cost overruns from changes in the plans last minute! Liars and theives? How honest has BART been in the past 10-20 years? Some economists say we might still be in recession for the next few years so shy not have a plan for job creation in case it takes two more years?
I just scanned this posting and comments. First we need a good design that works for the community. Second, the thread of union bashing is lame. Thanks for the write up.
[Edited by Robert - dude, dial it back several notches. No need to attack these people personally.]
Spokker Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 10:32 pm
“HIGH SPEED RAIL IS GOING TO COME”
AND SO AM I!!!!
Guess Im too blue collar..Spokker..I hope on the CAHSR PDF…go trains lots of them and I may be a rude SOB but I just joined your CailsforHSR..check /merbership is in the mail..
Spokker Reply:
January 22nd, 2010 at 11:35 pm
I’m pouring a 40 on the curb for your comment. Guess it was too real talk for them.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:14 am
The answer is waiting at the liquor store – 40 oz to freedom!
May need to bring a 40 of OE to the inaugural ride…
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:13 am
Thanks for the donation and for your support!
As you know, I don’t mind pushing back hard against the deniers’ nonsense, but this isn’t Vietnam, this is
bowlingHSR blogging, there are rules.Jathnael Taylor Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 10:08 am
This is SPPPAARRRRTTAAAAA!!!!!!11oneoneein
It was not even that bad..WHAT I really want to say is not printable..THIS IS WAR BOYS WITH THESE PEOPLE..grin
http://svlg.org/about/staff/elam.html This Emily Lam?
Silicon Valley Leadership Group – Didn’t they also have another representative speaking last night? So this is just another lobbying special interest group… And I see on their website, they do list HSR as one of their ‘campaigns’. Not surprising, the ‘greater good’ speech is fishy and unconvincing no matter who gives it.
As for “the cost of doing nothing” (A favorite rhetorical tag line of Robert’s gang, interesting that Galgiani has picked it up now, almost word for word). Well, here’s the real truth: The opposite of doing HSR is not “doing nothing”. We can do valuable things that solve economic and environmental problems that are not HSR. Imagine this (its easy if you try) a federal loan to create construction jobs PLUS long term high tech jobs in California, in an industry that will result in getting gas guzzling cars off the road. Solutions that are not HSR! That DO have a viable business plan. They exist and are happening now. http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=15404
So “doing nothing” on HSR is not equivalent to doing nothing – is it Robert?
matt Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 1:26 am
And you talk about HSR being for the rich. Who the hell can afford a 50,000 electric car?
dejv Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:58 am
Aren’t such things actually more expensive way of solving that problems than HSR?
Maxi Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:18 am
As said, improving rail and public transport is one of the cheapest ways you can cut carbon emissions and oil consumption next to land reform and raising gas taxes. Gas taxes disproportionately hurts the poor. And you know how land reform is x10 as politically unfeasible as HSR.
Electric batteries still can’t be put in a vehicle for under $10,000 and this is projected to change little in the next decade. Concentrating our efforts in those vehicles is basically concentrating our efforts in our upper-middle classes since that’s who’s benefiting from this anyway. Not to mention the very costly renewable energy grid needed to make these cars remain low emission, renewable investments take 2-3 times as long to make their money back as HSR. I don’t need to mention how higher energy prices has pushed out large and small businesses and taken jobs with it, the unintended consequence of maintaining car dependence.
It’s already been shown how HSR is cheaper and and infinitely cleaner than expanding the highways and airports. Low traveling costs increases economic mobility, that shifts the labor market around more efficiently and allows more business to take place, the result is that country/state has significantly reduced the impact of its economic dips, and rebounds faster from a recession. But let’s throw all that away to keep the outdated and unsustainable California Dream?
Peter Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:22 am
Not to mention that concentrating on electric vehicles does nothing to prevent traffic congestion. It just means you’ll be stuck in traffic with cars that aren’t polluting.
samussas Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:42 am
Not to mention that those electric cars will be polluting. Manufacturing a car is very not environment friendly. It uses lots of energy, iron, plastic, oil… Same goes for the necessary batteries.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 7:05 pm
I don’t think the poor are especially hurt in countries with high gas taxes, like, say, all developed countries except the US, Canada, and Australia. In fact, most of those countries have a lot less inequality and poverty than the US, because their social policy doesn’t isolate everyone who can’t afford a car.
Jathnael Taylor Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 7:51 am
You know…with the current way Cali and the US charges for gas, inspects, and registers and with the way the we do the licensing here for drivers…Big cars will be the norm..
there needs to be a fundamental shift in the way that is done..but most Californian wont vote for it.
Or highway infrastructure is falling apart..where do you think the money from that will come from?
I am a car guy, I drive a Lancer Evolution and do a little bit of motor sports with it. I am not a cars = bad public transport = good type guy…I am just someone that gets it and I know there needs to be a better way than what we are doing now. And after taking HSR in Europe when I was stationed over there, and in Japan I can see that it would be a good fit for this line…
Let me ask you this…have YOU ever taken High speed rail for a trip anywhere?
You state ” Imagine this (its easy if you try) a federal loan to create construction jobs PLUS long term high tech jobs in California, in an industry that will result in getting gas guzzling cars off the road. ”
but you don’t say which industry it is or how it will be done or the price .
Now if you can name which industry it is…then it will be a lot easier to take the steaming pile you are serving up.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:22 am
Electric cars are part of the solution, absolutely. But they are not the whole solution. How do you pay for the new roads and freeway lanes they’ll need? If we don’t build HSR to help increase urban density, where do the new families set up their households? On farmland in Modesto? You’re merely assuming the status quo is just fine, and that if we replace combustion engines with electric engines, all our problems will be over. Which is just not true.
Further, electric cars don’t solve the problem of how you get from SF to LA and back quickly in an era of high fuel prices (which will make flying uneconomical). And they’re much, much slower than a high speed train trip between those cities – or even a drive between SF and San Jose on a crowded Highway 101.
There are no one-size-fits-all solutions. Electric cars are a good way to help retrofit the suburbs. HSR and other forms of urban passenger rail are a good way to help existing urban cores, along with policies to make cities more walkable and bikeable (and Palo Alto has been leading on that front for decades).
As to Emily Lam, I don’t know if it’s the same one or not. But you reveal your true colors when you dismiss the concept of the “greater good.” You already benefit from it – the roads you use, the police and fire protections you enjoy, the schooling you’ve had, Social Security and Medicare you will or maybe already are receiving – all of it is predicated on the notion of paying for the “greater good.” Maybe you’re prosperous enough to say “I got mine, screw you!” But the rest of California doesn’t have that luxury.
I appreciate the work you do providing this information. One comment unrelated to CAHSR, you said, “Trying to go back to the ballot until you get the result you want on something like this just doesn’t make sense.”
Won’t this year see the fourth effort on “parental notification” by the anti-choice crowd? And if so, what is to prevent anti-CAHSR from taking this approach to CAHSR in future?
Peter Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:06 am
I didn’t know they were doing it again. Sigh.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 11:23 am
Indeed we will – and it’s the 4th effort in just 5 years. We badly need initiative reform to ensure that once a proposal is approved or rejected, there’s a waiting period before it can come back to the ballot.
Jathnael Taylor Reply:
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 pm
for real…
Another apparent teen suicide at East Meadows crossing last night. 150 yards from where the security guard was located.
My thoughts go to the teen’s family and friends as well as to the engineer.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14254500?source=most_viewed
Tom Reply:
January 24th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
So the solution to these horrible suicides is to build HSR? Now that’s great logic. Right up there with the rest of the logic behind HSR.
Looking forward to your piece on the Central Valley Maintenance Facility there have been up to 15 proposals that I know of submitted to the authority.
Robert — You simply refuse to recognize that the business plan will pencil. You’ve had many experts look at it. You’ve had the LAO look at it. It doesn’t pencil. It will require a subsidy, as does Amtrak and the rest of HSR around the world. Your guy the other night called the plan a ’scenario’. A scenario? What is that all about? Are we going to be seeing scenarios forever until it finally is clear that this doesn’t work financially? A subsidy is illegal and clearly immoral, given all the needs of this state. HSR is simply a luxury liner for the well to do.
Second, we all want more jobs. Build schools, roads, other infrastructure with the gravy from Washington. That will produce some jobs and will represent some true investment.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 24th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
You don’t get to just say “It will require a subsidy” – you have to actually prove that point. Show me the evidence.
In fact, the evidence is against you. The Acela does not require an ongoing operating subsidy. Neither does, to my knowledge, any other HSR system around the world.
As to “scenario,” that is precisely what the CHSRA has offered. No decisions have been made on fares yet, and that isn’t likely to happen for some time.
Why should we build roads? That invalidates your entire hypocritical argument, since those roads require operating subsidies. Why should we subsidize freeways when we have other things to fund with the money? By your logic we should be putting up tolls on Interstate 280 and Highway 101. You going to support that?
Tom Reply:
January 24th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Well, it was clearly proven by the OLA. The evidence is right there in the report. Moreover, as you certainly know, these big projects always always always cost more than the early estimates. So unless you want to charge $300 a ticket or more, it will require a subsidy. You might also ask any impartial economist to look at the numbers as well. They will tell you the same thing.
On Amtrak, you are wrong. There is a subsidy for Amtrak. Many foreign HSRs are subsidized in one way or another.
The Business Plan was billed as a business plan, not a scenario. How many more scenarios do we have to suffer before people figure out this thing doesn’t pencil?
So don’t build roads. Build schools. Build water retention systems. Build things that will serve people’s needs. HSR will not serve the needs of the average Californian. It will be a luxury liner for the well to do. We don’t need that now in this state.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 8:50 am
The LAO report “clearly proves” nothing. It merely lists a few concerns, few of which are explained in adequate detail.
You’re simply wrong about Amtrak’s Acela. It posts a regular operating profit. So does pretty much every other HSR system around the world. You cannot make untrue assertions and statements if you want to continue posting at this site.
What does happen is that the public sector subsidizes the construction of the HSR systems, just as we do with airports and freeways. While we’ve decided as a society to subsidize the operating costs of freeways, HSR is expected to generate its own surpluses, which it does in France, Spain, Japan, and even Taiwan.
Finally, you have no evidence that HSR “will not serve the needs of the average Californian.” We need to fund education and water systems, yes, but we also have to address the transportation needs of the 21st century in a sustainable way – you seem to have forgotten entirely about this little thing called the “climate crisis” or “oil dependence.”
Alon Levy Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Amtrak, on the whole, requires subsidies. However, if you break it down route by route, then the entire operating subsidy comes from a handful of long-distance routes. The Northeast Corridor is operationally profitable – even the Regional, which is billed as the low-fare alternative to the Acela, breaks even. Whether the NEC as a whole is profitable after depreciation or not depends on how you allocate capital depreciation among the routes. The long-distance foamers insist it’s not, the NEC business riders insist it is.
The “one way or another” weasel-phrase more precisely means, “all HSR in the world is operationally profitable, but some lines will never pay back construction costs, and two lines funded by high-interest loans require subsidies to cover the debt.”
Jarrett Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
I can’t comment on the financial specifics of other HSR systems around the world, but my general understanding is capital costs are typically a mix of public and private funds, while operating costs are covered by tickets and there are operational surpluses. So, if you count capital costs with operational costs, HSR isn’t profitable. But then again, what transportation system pays for its capital costs out of pocket?
As for Amtrak, I agree with Alon. As a whole, Amtrak is not profitable, but certain lines have higher ridership and lose less money. There was a Pew research report done recently that shows the Acela Express (closest thing to HSR in this country) makes a profit of $41 per passenger, while the more frequent and cheaper Regional loses $5 per passenger. Here’s the report:
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transportation/amtrak/
My understanding is that the ridership forecasts were produced by an independent company. If you say their figures are “flawed”, then you are accusing an engineering company of professional incompetance, and you had better have some decent evidence to back up your claim.
(That said, as a transportation planning professional myself, I would love to see more detail on how those figrues were calculated and the assumptions behind them.)
Alon Levy Reply:
January 25th, 2010 at 9:20 am
TomW, you can look up SNCF’s report on California HSR. It calculates ridership projections using a combination of logit and probit analysis to determine demand diversion from other modes of transportation, and a gravity model to determine total market size and induced demand.
TomW Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 6:16 am
Got a link?
Spokker Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 8:58 am
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/19/breaking-sncf-proposes-development-of-high-speed-rail-in-midwest-texas-florida-and-california-corridors/
California’s other jobs creation plan…
http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_14251382?source=rss&nclick_check=1
Joey Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 6:57 am
Yeah, well, what do you expect while Schwarzenegger is in office?
jimsf Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 11:01 am
I am so tired of the schools crying poor. They suck up almost half (42%) of the budget already. Its way out of proportion. That is 6 times the budget of corrections (7%) They only way education should get a larger cut of the budget is if you take it from the welfare portion of the budget which is also out of control at 26.6 %.
MEanwhile, The things that benefit productive members of society, have a an ever shrinking budget. Look how much is devoted to consumer services. 1%. and “business, transportation and housing” combined, only 8.2 percent.
The way this translates into real terms tells the story of why so many californians are unhappy with the current state of things. We feel that we are being over taxed, yet the things we used to have in good repair, the things that benefit the working and middle class, such as roads, or being able to get a live person to answer the phone at a state agency ( dmv, consumer, or any other service) have gone downhill while the budget gets eaten up by other things. That is what is at the root of the guvs low numbers. Many of us remember a time when california had money to be state of the art, and offered a plethora of services to the middle class. Now every where one turns,, well thats not the case. ITs time to re prioritize the budget Education should be capped at one third and the administrative waste removed. The waste needs to be removed from sac as well, are those guys still getting free cars and gas? Thats freakin bullsh*t.
The way
jimsf Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 11:03 am
“the way” huh howd that get there… that happened to some one else too. I dont care for this new blog format seems to be possessed.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 11:05 am
Or California could drop the Reaganism and raise taxes on the rich.
The schools may be crying poor, but that’s because they are. California’s per student spending on K-12 education is about a wash with the national average, despite the higher living costs. Among the coastal states that actually give a crap about education, California’s among the lowest spenders – blame Prop 13 and the Palo Alto “What, me pay more than 0.2% property tax?” NIMBYs for that.
jimsf Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 11:16 am
oh I forgot to post my link
Alon, the problem is that to much is wasted on admin. and also, the schools fail when the are over run with students who don’t speak basic english, with parents who don’t get involved, with parents who don’t speak english, and with parents who think its the teachers job to babysit. If you go to schools in neighborhoods where parents are involved, they do much better. Its a matter of taking responsibility. Then you have the kids to whom we say. ” here is your free 12 year education to get you started in life, make the best of it” who turn around and show us that they have no interest in it, and further they disrupt the process for the students who do want to be there, yet schools refuse to expel the trouble makers. If we are paying for your education then you will either sit down shut up, behave and learn or get out. and THAT is the problem.
Watch your language, would you? There’s a difference between “opponent” and “denier” and I’d appreciate it if you acknowledged that difference. The people who are opposed to HSR construction are, logically enough, opponents. The deniers, such as me, deny that HSR is actually going to be built at all. Perhaps I’ll change my mind if I ever actually see them start digging, but even so I’ll be of the opinion that HSR won’t be anything more than a very, very expensive upgrade to Caltrain.