Sunday Open Thread
Feel free to use this as an open thread for anything HSR related. Some recent HSR news items:
- With a British general election looming and the Conservative Party riding high in the polls, it’s good to hear that the Tories will support the London-Scotland HSR project if and when they get elected.
- Amtrak will launch wifi on the Acela trains in March. I keep hearing that wifi on the Capitol Corridor between San José and Sacramento should be happening soon, but no date on that has yet been made public.
- Vietnam plans to adopt Shinkansen technology for a link from central Hanoi to the airport. Last summer Vietnam announced plans to use Shinkansen tech for the cross-country link from Hanoi south to Ho Chi Minh City.
- Hong Kong NIMBYs are protesting plans to build an HSR link to the mainland, while the Economist wonders how China will pay for the massive cost of its HSR construction binge. The answer appears to be that the government will subsidize the construction to a large extent, which is the smart strategy, though the details matter. The Economist compares China’s HSR plans to America’s big 19th century railroad construction efforts, and it’s worth noting that those efforts were constantly plagued by debt problems. In fact, on at least three different occasions, railroad-related debt problems produced financial panics and threw the nation into Depression (1857, 1873 and 1893). Yet nobody would say that the railroad construction was a bad idea – the US would never have become a global industrial power without them. Of course, a better way to build it could have been done, and when it came time to build the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s, memories of the 19th century railroads were strong, which is why government directly subsidized the construction cost of the interstates.
Tonight FOX is broadcasting the pilot of “Human Target”. The plot: Chance is hired to protect the beautiful engineer of California’s first bullet train as it makes its maiden voyage from Los Angeles to San Francisco.
So Hollywood is on board with the idea of High Speed Rail…
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Sounds like an updated version of SUPERTRAIN!
HSRforCali Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
That pilot was horrible. Bad acting, bad script, bad story, etc.
I apologize for the repost, but I want to make sure that people see my reply to the San Carlos Berm which I sent out this AM:
[Edit by Robert: See GESC's comment in context in the San Carlos thread so that we can keep the discussion in one place. Apologies again to GESC; I'm looking into what happened to that earlier comment. I know some people have reported issues with the CAPTCHA we use, which may be responsible.]
Rafael Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 3:20 am
Afaik, WordPress automatically holds the first comment made by a new commenter for administrator approval. We might want to change the policy to encourage newcomers, even if it means the occasional blogspam will get through and we have to manually delete it after the fact.
Again, this blog does not censor posts unless they are obvious blogspam, very offensive (racist, sexually explicit etc.) or in a language other than English. We don’t suppress opinions that are critical of the HSR project or how it is managed, funded etc.
I just love the idea of high-speed rail/transit lines connecting the big city to remote airports out in the country side; where they belong! Way to go Vietnam! One of the benefits of our future HSR, in particlular the line from San Jose south to Gilroy, is that it could put in motion the eventual (possible) relocation of SJC (SJ Airport) out of downtown SJ to southeastern Gilroy or northewestern San Benito County. No airport belongs in a big city downtown, and the land/remoteness is their in that vast swath for a grand airport to serve SJ, Silicon Valley and the Central Coast. Either a spur line off the main HSR ROW or a “JFK Airtrain”-like connection from the future Gilroy Station directly into a hypothetical airline terminal. 15-20 minutes from Diridon Station to future “Gilroy” SJC via HSR! Hey, nothing wrong with dreaming.
NIMBY’s exist in Hong Kong/China?
wu ming Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 12:23 am
of course they do, and american assumptions to the contrary, they often raise enough ruckus that they effect government planning. not always, and more through direct action/protest/riots/petitions than the legal or political routes americans tend to use, but they do, all the same.
Marcus Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Such NIMBYs successfully blocked (or delayed, at least) an ill thought out Maglev line between Shanghai and Hangzhou, which, if built, would have been the first intercity Maglev in the world. However, the train service between these cities is very good already (I’ve taken it) and the price of tickets would have been prohibitively high for ordinary people.
High speed train bypasses station at 350 km/h in high definition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9W26vNofos&hd=1
Rafael Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 3:45 am
This particular trainset is 8 cars long, which works out to around 200m. It takes about 2 seconds to pass the beginning of the far platform. This implies a speed on the order of ~100m/s = ~360km/h, so the claim appears plausible.
The recording gives a fair representation of the spectral composition of the emitted noise and the Doppler effect, but the sound power (i.e. volume) is unreliable as it is subject to both recording and playback gain.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 11:26 am
I didn’t post it to demonstrate what kind of noise it makes. It’s just cool.
There’s news that the feds are dumping the Bush era restrictions on transit funding and implementing new requirments
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Right now that’s mostly for new starts, but it’s an enormous boost to light rail and streetcar projects.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
My initial observtion is that it broadens criteria for new projects; however, does not make those already eligible, eligible for more funding. It just makes more projects eligible. If this is the case, then what is certainly needed is additional funding. My hope is the the new administration will do just that – provide more funding.
I like this when the train pulls in, they use the advertising theme as the announcement tone. I like advertising that pulls everything together like that. wish we did better.
There has been some recent movement in campaigns that aim to fix California’s 2/3 majority requirement for passing the budget, and I think it merits the attention of any Californian interested in getting our state government to start executing on the policy positions held by the majority Democratic party. In my opinion, it is quite obscene that Republicans can hold a budget or tax increase hostage even if it is supported by a majority of our elected officials. If you’ve ever gotten angry about our state’s constant inability to pass a budget on time, know that this is the reason.
Republicans are laughing themselves silly about this one. Believe me.
The NYT ran an article recently about George Lakoff’s attempts to take action on this critical issue. If you back HSR, you should probably worry about our state’s ability to raise other funds to keep the rest of our transportation infrastructure in working order so that it can best complement the coming high speed train.
http://bayarea.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/george-lakoff-wants-to-change-the-conversation/?hp
The article links to two different groups that seem to be trying to get things ready for upcoming ballots. I haven’t investigated either in much detail. Any further info on this topic would be much appreciated by me, and I think has some important tangential importance to the HSR topic we’re discussing here!
Thanks.
Rafael Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 3:33 am
Bizarrely, the California state constitution can be amended by a simply majority of voters via a ballot initiative even though the legislature needs a 2/3 majority in both houses plus the signature of the governor to pass a plain old budget. That should be reversed to ensure either one party or the other is fully accountable for the fiscal situation at any given time. It is not at all a given that lowering the threshold for passing budget to a simple majority would guarantee a Democratic majority in perpetuity – quite the contrary, in fact. If voters were fed up, they could give the other lot a crack at the whip. The prospect of actual power to do something – as opposed to merely blocking it – tends to moderate the positions of all candidates, though it might take a couple of election cycles to get there.
The hard part is getting a ballot proposition onto the ballot in the first place. The most promising route would be to collect enough signatures (around 8% of the votes cast in the previous election IIRC) to bypass the state legislature. The initiative should call for the following changes: allow the state legislature to pass laws – including the budget – with a simple majority in both houses PLUS require a 2/3 supermajority for all future amendments to the constitution.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Unfortunately, Lakoff’s effort almost certainly will fail to make the ballot. I’ve been in very close contact with the organizers of that effort, and while they are well-intentioned, they lack the resources to make this happen.
The only other way 2/3rds will be dealt with in 2010 is through California Forward’s ballot package, which includes a reduction of the budget requirement to 50%+1. So far nobody is willing to touch the 2/3rds for revenue increases, aside from Lakoff.
There’s also the Constitutional Convention out there, which will probably make the ballot. I’m less certain of whether it will pass, and even less certain that it’s a good idea.
@spokker
yet no one were being blown away like some claimed. they were acting like nothing happened.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 11:27 am
I had a boner though.
@Bianca
I saw it too. Very bad. I couldn’t take it any more and had to bail about 40 minutes in.
You know what’s funny? I’m pretty sure that the UK will finish its high speed rail earlier than California. But I heard they will work with the Department of Transportation of Germany. I used to livein Germany until late 2008 and I have to admit that they have a great, decentralized and fast high speed rail system with low fares AND profit.
Obama Transportation Sec’y Ray LaHood’s high-speed rail slush fund:
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/01/18/obama-transportation-secy-ray-lahoods-high-speed-rail-slush-fund/
Cruikshank: Be sure to kill the messenger after reading this and miss the point.
Joey Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
I don’t know about the messenger, but that blog has a lot wrong with it. I’ll skip over the baseless assertions and just point out that it approaches everything from a “GOVERNMENT SPENDING IS BAD!!!” perspective, without even going into the benefits (or flaws) of any particular project. It seems to be saying that the only purpose of the $8b stimulus is to fund the Illinois HSR project, but doesn’t even have the courage to say it directly.
And Robert: I wouldn’t bother making a post on this – it’s really not worth the time.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
I don’t plan to. Michelle Malkin is nuts. Not worth the time.
I spend time debunking newspaper editorials because those do have some ability to reach Californians whose support we need. Malkin just plays to her teabagger base, who will never support HSR as long as a dime of government money goes to it.
jimsf Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 1:06 am
I’m am so sick to death of this smarmy, slimey, dumbass, America should fail, breed of americans shooting off their mouths. They have zero critical thinking skills and are so unhappy with themselves that what makes them feel good is to drag everyone down with them. They have no thoughts of their own because they are too afraid to have an original thought. They can only parrot what they are told. Polly wanna cracker? Remember the insecure “follow the leader” crowd back in jr hight. These guys never got past it.
The Hong Kong opposition to a rail link to China isn’t based on NIMBYism – it’s based on political opposition to Hong Kong’s China-dominated government.
For those interested in Anaheim – Eminent Domain takings are the subject of this latest blog entry:
http://anaheimlife.blogspot.com/
If they’re right – they seem to have some CEQA issues down there….
Peter Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Wouldn’t it be ironic if HSR gets built from SF to LAUS, and don’t extend to Anaheim? I’d be ok with that, actually.
Eric M Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
As much as I dislike the pointless complaints coming from Anaheim, I think it is very important to include Anaheim in the first phase. Having the rail line terminate next to Disneylan is a HUGE plus. Just think of the ridership it will generate by having a destination for tourists to easily access. California will become a lot smaller state when high speed rail gets built.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
The last mile problem (actually, 2-3 miles) presents itself when actually trying to get to Disneyland from ARTIC. Anaheim’s proposed ARTIC Fixed Guideway thingy is complete shit.
Andrew Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
What is the current proposal, exactly?
I know it’s been discussed and all but shot down here before, but I’ve been pondering how a Disneyland Monorail extension might work.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
Any participation by Disney is out of the question. Any transportation system from ARTIC to the Resort Area will not touch Disney property.
The current proposal is a meandering 35 MPH monorail or maglev that’s going to cost a crapload of money and doesn’t even get any closer to the parks or the Disney Hotels that an express bus connection would. It would be okay for getting to the convention center and Disney’s third gate, if that ever happens.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 11:59 pm
Here’s a map I made illustrating the problem. Let me know if you have any questions.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111791154239862255567.000479e36cf92ac35486a&z=14
Peter Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 8:23 am
But a bus isn’t as sexy as a monorail…
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
It’s not just Disneyland. Orange County has 3 million people, most within a 15-20 mile radius of ARTIC. That’s a huge number of potential riders, people who’ll want to go to LA for whatever reason, visit family in the Central Valley, take a trip to the Bay Area. And of course, there are a lot more reasons to visit Orange County than just Disneyland, from the beaches to businesses to those of us who have family within short driving distance of ARTIC.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Most of those people are 15-20 miles of congested roads from ARTIC. If Metrolink were half-decent it would be faster to drive to the nearest station and take Metrolink to LAUS instead.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
I will be at the meeting on Wednesday showing my support for the project.
Peter Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
What meeting on Wednesday?
Peter Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Sorry, I should read first before posting.
spokker Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Anaheim City Hall at 5PM. All the Anaheim Colony people are going to show up and demand the line be put into a tunnel.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 1:04 am
Hey, they wanna put it in a tunnel let ‘em. It increases the value of their property. I’m sure there’s some way to get around Prop 13 and increase their property taxes to pay for it…..
spokker Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Gotta love white people.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 2:52 am
If Wikepedia is right there’s approximately 100,000 housing units in the city. Billion dollars spread over 100,000 units is only 10,000 dollars. Amortized that over 30 years at attractive interest rates that’s only 6 – 7 hundred dollars a year…… I’m sure the people who don’t live anywhere near the tracks would be anxious to pay so that people near the tracks have increased property values.
…. Spread over the 10,000 housing units that might have a little itty bitty tiny bit of anything to do with it that’s only 6 or 7 thousand dollars a year. And they forever and ever and ever they get to pay the increases maintenance costs of a tunnel versus whatever else might have worked. I’m sure everyone will get on board for that…. 7,500 hundred a year is only $625 a month….
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
One of their posts claims Anaheim will be “carved up like Sherman’s march to the sea.”
Um, earth to Anaheim: Disney, Interstate 5, the 57 freeway, the 55 freeway, Anaheim Stadium, and Honda Center already accomplished this feat long ago. HSR merely expands an existing railroad corridor.
People flip out at property takings for widening a freeway. In fact, the 5 was doubled in size through Anaheim just ten years ago. I don’t seem to recall that causing catastrophe and economic ruin for the city.
Anaheim carved up? This is a railway that carries up to 14 lanes of interstate highway capacity in a 50 foot right of way that normally takes up 4-5 times that? Expanding I-5 to 20 lanes to the LA Basin would carve up an entire region in nothing but concrete jungle.
A few suggestions to those who oppose:
Mobility in the region will be inhibited further without this project
The cost of doing nothing simply isn’t zero, it costs more in terms of congestion, building more lanes, airport gates, and runways.
More choices might help with development of other mass transit projects such as bus rapid transit lines, light rail, metros, or any other mass transit form, improving the choice and mobility of millions.
Robert, since we seem to have a repeating of the same issues, perhaps an HSR 101 post is in order to deal with the repeated issues or has that already been established?
Why Castle is best site for high speed rail maintenance hub