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	<title>Comments on: Report: HSR Stimulus Includes $400 Million for Transbay Terminal</title>
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	<description>California High Speed Rail support blog, spreading news and info about the high speed trains project approved by California voters in November 2008.</description>
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		<title>By: lyqwyd</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68523</link>
		<dc:creator>lyqwyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68523</guid>
		<description>The problem is not solved by 600 foot radii, it&#039;s just slightly less bad. This is because the problem was not simply having greater than 180m radius. The problem is tight curves resulting in lower performance and higher maintenance. 180m is the minimum, not the recommended preference.

Does anybody know why the Japanese changed the number from 250 meters (820 feet) to 180?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is not solved by 600 foot radii, it&#8217;s just slightly less bad. This is because the problem was not simply having greater than 180m radius. The problem is tight curves resulting in lower performance and higher maintenance. 180m is the minimum, not the recommended preference.</p>
<p>Does anybody know why the Japanese changed the number from 250 meters (820 feet) to 180?</p>
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		<title>By: lyqwyd</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68514</link>
		<dc:creator>lyqwyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68514</guid>
		<description>@Brian
I didn&#039;t see anything of interest in the letters you provided, but they did refer to the transbay EIR, so I checked the sections that were referred to, the most interesting parts to me were:

section 2.3.1.2:
&quot;February 1999, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution repealing its prior 
endorsement of the Main/Beale site for a new terminal&quot;...
&quot;AC Transit supported this action noting that the Main/Beale site would 
not provide the level of transit service that could be provided at the current terminal&quot;...
&quot;Withdrawal of the Main/Beal site was also consistent with the provisions of Proposition H, 
which calls for a multi-modal facility at the current Transbay Terminal site.&quot;

so basically nothing technical there, just politics and a bus operator.

I&#039;ll also note that while prop H requires transbay to be constructed at the same site, it does not say the train station has to be in the basement. 
It also states &quot;yield the highest possible transit use by residents and commuters&quot;, which is being ignored in a number of ways (no concern for passenger flow, no concern for operational flexibility, no concern for tunnel approach constraints, tight curves causing slower train speeds)


section 2.3.2.3:
&quot;The alignments along Beale Street leading from The Embarcadero would pass near the Bay 
Bridge anchorage, raising issues regarding the effects of cut-and-cover construction on this 
major structure.&quot;...
&quot;The Caltrain terminal at Market and Beale Streets was ultimately withdrawn from further 
consideration because of the narrow right-of-way available on Beale Street, requiring 
construction of a multi-level train station between two historic structures.&quot;

So &quot;raising issues&quot;. Exactly why further study is needed, I saw nothing saying these issues were determined to be insurmountable. There&#039;s lots of space between main and Beale where the tunnel could run, but they only considered the option that puts it directly next to the Bay Bridge anchorage.

The second section says a multi-level train station would be required, but that&#039;s only true if you only allow the trains to be completely under Beale street. There&#039;s plenty of open space between Beale &amp; Main that could allow for a wide &amp; shallow train station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian<br />
I didn&#8217;t see anything of interest in the letters you provided, but they did refer to the transbay EIR, so I checked the sections that were referred to, the most interesting parts to me were:</p>
<p>section 2.3.1.2:<br />
&#8220;February 1999, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a resolution repealing its prior<br />
endorsement of the Main/Beale site for a new terminal&#8221;&#8230;<br />
&#8220;AC Transit supported this action noting that the Main/Beale site would<br />
not provide the level of transit service that could be provided at the current terminal&#8221;&#8230;<br />
&#8220;Withdrawal of the Main/Beal site was also consistent with the provisions of Proposition H,<br />
which calls for a multi-modal facility at the current Transbay Terminal site.&#8221;</p>
<p>so basically nothing technical there, just politics and a bus operator.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll also note that while prop H requires transbay to be constructed at the same site, it does not say the train station has to be in the basement.<br />
It also states &#8220;yield the highest possible transit use by residents and commuters&#8221;, which is being ignored in a number of ways (no concern for passenger flow, no concern for operational flexibility, no concern for tunnel approach constraints, tight curves causing slower train speeds)</p>
<p>section 2.3.2.3:<br />
&#8220;The alignments along Beale Street leading from The Embarcadero would pass near the Bay<br />
Bridge anchorage, raising issues regarding the effects of cut-and-cover construction on this<br />
major structure.&#8221;&#8230;<br />
&#8220;The Caltrain terminal at Market and Beale Streets was ultimately withdrawn from further<br />
consideration because of the narrow right-of-way available on Beale Street, requiring<br />
construction of a multi-level train station between two historic structures.&#8221;</p>
<p>So &#8220;raising issues&#8221;. Exactly why further study is needed, I saw nothing saying these issues were determined to be insurmountable. There&#8217;s lots of space between main and Beale where the tunnel could run, but they only considered the option that puts it directly next to the Bay Bridge anchorage.</p>
<p>The second section says a multi-level train station would be required, but that&#8217;s only true if you only allow the trains to be completely under Beale street. There&#8217;s plenty of open space between Beale &amp; Main that could allow for a wide &amp; shallow train station.</p>
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		<title>By: adirondacker12800</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68510</link>
		<dc:creator>adirondacker12800</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68510</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I live in Oakland I would love it if they ran HSR up to Oakland too, but look at the ridership #s. SF is a lot more important than Oakland.&lt;/em&gt;

Which is why they are going to build a tunnel from Oakland to San Francisco someday. Not only do people want to get from San Francisco from Los Angeles they want to get to San Francisco from Sacramento... and Cloverdale and Calistoga and Fairfield  and Stockton and .... Of course if there is no place to put a station in San Francisco building a tunnel would be pointless. 

They can build tall buildings on the land between Main and Beale or they can build a train station and then build tall buildings over the station. I&#039;m sure someplace in you urban planning courses they mentioned that Grand Central was financed that way. Or that the reason the original Penn Station was torn down was to make way for Madison Square Garden and tall office buildings or took you for a virtual tour of the train stations in Tokyo that have malls and office complexes over them or .....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I live in Oakland I would love it if they ran HSR up to Oakland too, but look at the ridership #s. SF is a lot more important than Oakland.</em></p>
<p>Which is why they are going to build a tunnel from Oakland to San Francisco someday. Not only do people want to get from San Francisco from Los Angeles they want to get to San Francisco from Sacramento&#8230; and Cloverdale and Calistoga and Fairfield  and Stockton and &#8230;. Of course if there is no place to put a station in San Francisco building a tunnel would be pointless. </p>
<p>They can build tall buildings on the land between Main and Beale or they can build a train station and then build tall buildings over the station. I&#8217;m sure someplace in you urban planning courses they mentioned that Grand Central was financed that way. Or that the reason the original Penn Station was torn down was to make way for Madison Square Garden and tall office buildings or took you for a virtual tour of the train stations in Tokyo that have malls and office complexes over them or &#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: AndyDuncan</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68498</link>
		<dc:creator>AndyDuncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68498</guid>
		<description>@Brian: if the design problems with the TTC have been solved, and the CHSRA has approved them, that&#039;s fantastic. Can you provide links to those revised diagrams and the signoff from CHSRA? All we have to go on are the original EIRs you mention. I can&#039;t find anything on the TTC site with the revisions you say they&#039;ve made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian: if the design problems with the TTC have been solved, and the CHSRA has approved them, that&#8217;s fantastic. Can you provide links to those revised diagrams and the signoff from CHSRA? All we have to go on are the original EIRs you mention. I can&#8217;t find anything on the TTC site with the revisions you say they&#8217;ve made.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Stanke</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68487</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Stanke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68487</guid>
		<description>lqwyd I have address all the concerns in the CA4HSR letter I linked to earlier. It at: http://www.ca4hsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/09.14.09-LTR-FRA-regaring-Transbay-Terminal.pdf
you can also find our letter pushing back against the Main-Beale stalking horse at: http://www.ca4hsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/09.15.09-LTR-Feinstein-Transbay-letter.pdf
These letter cite specifically the official CAHSRA and TJPA EIS/EIR documents.

Where is your evidence? Can you cite anything to contradict those EIRs? I am genuinely interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lqwyd I have address all the concerns in the CA4HSR letter I linked to earlier. It at: <a href="http://www.ca4hsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/09.14.09-LTR-FRA-regaring-Transbay-Terminal.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ca4hsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/09.14.09-LTR-FRA-regaring-Transbay-Terminal.pdf</a><br />
you can also find our letter pushing back against the Main-Beale stalking horse at: <a href="http://www.ca4hsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/09.15.09-LTR-Feinstein-Transbay-letter.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ca4hsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/09.15.09-LTR-Feinstein-Transbay-letter.pdf</a><br />
These letter cite specifically the official CAHSRA and TJPA EIS/EIR documents.</p>
<p>Where is your evidence? Can you cite anything to contradict those EIRs? I am genuinely interested.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon from San Diego</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68485</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon from San Diego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68485</guid>
		<description>Bottomline.... how frequently can the throat process trains in each direction.... given 1315-foot trains, the limited speed of the curves, 3 tracks, trains in each direction occupying switches, heading into a terminal without any tail tracks?  And anything else I&#039;ve left out?

A CHSRA responsibility is to design a system enabling 5-minute separation of trains.  I don&#039;t see it yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bottomline&#8230;. how frequently can the throat process trains in each direction&#8230;. given 1315-foot trains, the limited speed of the curves, 3 tracks, trains in each direction occupying switches, heading into a terminal without any tail tracks?  And anything else I&#8217;ve left out?</p>
<p>A CHSRA responsibility is to design a system enabling 5-minute separation of trains.  I don&#8217;t see it yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon from San Diego</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68484</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon from San Diego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68484</guid>
		<description>... And, the train conflict in the throat, and at switches, make it impossible to design and build a system enabling trains operating as close to 5 minutes apart?  That is a question.  

I am pretty certain it is accurate; however, with so many folks here apparently knowledgable of such things and have likely already examined such... I&#039;d be interested to learn what they see before I crunch some numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; And, the train conflict in the throat, and at switches, make it impossible to design and build a system enabling trains operating as close to 5 minutes apart?  That is a question.  </p>
<p>I am pretty certain it is accurate; however, with so many folks here apparently knowledgable of such things and have likely already examined such&#8230; I&#8217;d be interested to learn what they see before I crunch some numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon from San Diego</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68481</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon from San Diego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68481</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll review.  Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll review.  Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon from San Diego</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68480</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon from San Diego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68480</guid>
		<description>Brian Stanke... Can you cite your source.... When, when did CHSRA agree to the TBT?  I heard nearly the exact oposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian Stanke&#8230; Can you cite your source&#8230;. When, when did CHSRA agree to the TBT?  I heard nearly the exact oposite.</p>
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		<title>By: lyqwyd</title>
		<link>http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/report-hsr-stimulus-includes-400-million-for-transbay-terminal/comment-page-1/#comment-68424</link>
		<dc:creator>lyqwyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cahsrblog.com/?p=2792#comment-68424</guid>
		<description>So what you are saying is you can&#039;t contradict what I&#039;ve written.

To second one, I didn&#039;t ask why to build now rather than later, I asked why to spend the money on something that can&#039;t be used for a decade (and has been poorly thought out) rather than improvements that will provide benefits as soon as they are complete (like grade separations).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what you are saying is you can&#8217;t contradict what I&#8217;ve written.</p>
<p>To second one, I didn&#8217;t ask why to build now rather than later, I asked why to spend the money on something that can&#8217;t be used for a decade (and has been poorly thought out) rather than improvements that will provide benefits as soon as they are complete (like grade separations).</p>
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