HSR Stimulus Reports: 13 Corridors To Be Funded
MAJOR UPDATE: Well, I have the stimulus funds announcement for CA in my hands. Will be posting on it once the embargo is over. Is it good news or bad? You’ll find out later this evening.
I’ll give you a hint: Pat Burt, Morris Brown, and Richard Tolmach aren’t going to like it. The rest of us will be pleased. Our concerns shown below that the funding would be spread too thin were unwarranted in the end. It will be in the ballpark of what Florida requested is reportedly receiving.
Original post:
Not quite sure if this is good news or not. Multiple news outlets, including Bloomberg, are reporting 13 corridors in 31 states will receive $8 billion in HSR stimulus funds:
The money will benefit 31 states, including a small portion of the $8 billion that will go to improvements of existing rail lines, the official said. Florida, California and New York are among states that applied for money. Vice President Joseph Biden, who commuted by Amtrak between Delaware and Washington when he was a senator, will travel with Obama for the announcement at a town hall-style meeting, the official said….
Improving lines already in place is an effective use of the funds, said Ross Capon of the National Association of Railroad Passengers.
“We have always strongly supported incremental improvements to existing services, so giving the money 13 corridors on its face seems reasonable, and consistent with our position,” said Capon, whose group is based in Washington.
Needless to say, I don’t agree. Many others have argued that for these funds to be useful, they have to be concentrated in places that can actually produce meaningful outcomes, including building some genuine high speed rail that Americans can see and be inspired by, that can serve as a model for bullet train service across the nation.
If the funds are to be doled out to 13 different corridors, however, that reduces the possibility that these funds will be concentrated, unless some corridors were given token amounts. It definitely seems unlikely that California will get the $3 billion many of us had been expecting based on Ray LaHood’s comments in the second half of 2009. The question now is what exactly we will get. It was never likely that we would get our entire $4.7 billion request, but somewhere around $2 billion for both Central Valley segments (Merced-Fresno and Fresno-Bakersfield) and LA-Anaheim seemed reasonable. We’ll see if that happens or not when the announcement is made tomorrow.
This thread will be updated during the day are more reports come in.
UPDATE 1: One has to ask about the $171 million Transbay Terminal loan announced earlier this week – does that mean the $400 million request for HSR stimulus funds to do the trainbox is not going to get funded? The US DOT played a big role in getting that loan done.
What a shame the money is going to be spread too thin. Too much money sent to projects that are not even “high speed rail”, give me a break!! That was the whole point of this funding, not slow 80 mph and less trains, nor to expand corridors with extra tracks for passings which will only slightly increase already slow speeds. Or Florida’s train to nowhere, what a joke. I think with LaHood’s announcement about $170 million loan to the Transbay Terminal, it precludes the penincula segment not getting any stimulous money. That was his gesture in kind.
I do hope I am wrong and we get the full $4 billion.
Since we’re speculating, from the wording of the article it looks like only a “small portion” is going to upgrade existing rail lines. So most of the money should be going to major new corridors.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 10:53 am
Agreed. The question is whether they’re spreading it too thin among the 13 corridors. If Florida gets $2B, California should get at least that, especially since our voters didn’t rescind approval of HSR as Floridians did in 2004.
@Peter
I’m keeping my fingers crossed that this is the case.
I think this is good from at least 1 perspective:
Having 31 states getting the money means there will be at least 31 governors, 62 senators, hundreds of mayors, and possibly hundreds of representatives that will be interested in growing the pie for HSR. Hopefully the lower speed and less developed projects will only get $10s of millions to get the projects moving with the promise of more funding when they make planning/ design progress. I hope the lion’s share will still go to the true HSR projects.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:02 am
That’s very true. And we haven’t seen the full details yet. So this could still work out well for everyone.
I think the 31 states bit includes any state through which a train passes that also passes through some stretch of track that’s upgraded by one of these grants: so a small amount of money to Washington State to fix the slow zone around Tacoma benefits every state that the Empire Builder passes through.
There’s a lot of millions in a billion, and the corridor upgrades are much cheaper than full hsr, so you can get a lot of corridor upgrades for a couple billion dollars, leaving a couple billion for fl, and 3-4 billion for cali.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:08 am
I concur.
if my math is correct there’s 100 10 million dollar grants in one billion dollars.
if there’s 13 corridors or 11 not counting fl and ca, then one billion could = about 11 100million dollar grants. or actually,
using 2.2b out the 8b, you’d fund 11 corridors with 200 million each. Now Im not sure how fare 200million goes, but its a lot of money.
jimsf Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:10 am
and ca and fl would split the remaining 7.8b
Dave Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:31 am
You could also add the $2.5B added by Congress in December for the year to the $8B.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Add in Midwest for likely getting a nice chunk, and TX getting something smaller for further studies.
jim Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:21 am
I seem to remember Karen Rae telling the Texans a week or two ago they weren’t getting anything. But New Mexico asked for a few million to study the possibility of HSR Denver-Albuquerque-El Paso, so that’s a possibility. Maryland asked for $60M to start the B&P tunnel replacement process, so that’s a likely small award.
The midwest probably counts as several awards: Chicago-Detroit (which, given the state of Michigan’s economy, is a very likely candidate) would be an award to Michigan, an award to Indiana plus possibly an award to Illinois (I think there’s a grade separation in Chicago of lines that used to cross at diamonds): three of the thirteen.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:42 am
Let’s hope so.
texas. ugh. well ok give them a little something. They don’t even want it. Have you ever read the comments in their local papers about it. They are texans, they don’t want no stinkin fancy euro trains. Not even if they come with gun racks.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:20 am
Oh, unlike what our newspapers in CA have been putting out?
jimsf Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:29 am
Oh no not the papers themselves, I meant the reader comments from actual texans.
Cascadian Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:48 am
Maybe it’s different in California, but the reader comments for the Seattle dailies (online and in published letters) are atrociously anti-rail even though voters on balance aren’t. A lot depends upon the biases of publishers, the people likely to comment, and the fact that cranky letters are more interesting to read and generate more page views. I wouldn’t evaluate viability for HSR in Texas on those grounds.
Re: the HSR funds, I hope that Washington state gets funding for the Point Defiance bypass and a couple of other minor upgrades, but California deserves the bulk of the true HSR funding. Good luck!
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Newspaper comments generally speaking skew hard-right. True no matter the paper.
Agree that it would be great if Washington does get some funds. The Point Defiance bypass seems a pretty high priority project that would make a huge difference for the Amtrak Cascades route once completed.
jimsf Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
well it may be true about the comments because here in sf, the comments on the chron, lean so far right its unreal. The thing is, its an sf paper that attracts the nutjobs from all over the country to come and poke their noses in “lefty sf” business. They comment on every aspect of our local goings on. and I know damn well they don’t live here. or even in the state most of the time.
Bianca Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 11:53 am
and the reader comments from folks on the Peninsula are any better?
jimsf Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Texan very much cling to their wild west individuality. Ive lived there. Its a mess. Ye haw!
One of the most amazing things I noticed about texas is they have never heard of urban planning and building codes. New construction that is crumbling around the edges. A cauldron of hodgepodge development that makes Los Angeles look like gated planned community in comparison. I mean where else do you go down a street that has a sidewalk for two blocks, skips a block then another sidewalk, and where you get a quickie mart next to a mcmansion next to a trailer park next to a titty bar. ( thats what they call em down there). When my friend and I moved there we were like, omg what happened to this place, it was quite shocking for us.? Also their freeways are constructed out these concrete pieces that look like tinkertoys. WE just couldn’t help but notice that everything there seemed to have a cheap sort “rinky dink” appearance. Yeh, outside a few 20 something hippies in Austin, I don’t think texans are quite ready for high speed rail.
one of the corridors that Ill bet gets funding will be this one
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
I guess you were in Houston?
“Improving lines already in place”
As I’ve said I hope the Caltrain from SJ to SF gets funded. This will be, I imagine, one of the more complicated, time consuming and politically difficult segments in the CAHSR program. Getting started would be a big boost to building momentum and would also address the peninsula suicides (by train) that have become all too common.
In addition to Obama being in Tampa, Supposedly Ray Lahood will be in Chicago for an announcement there tomorrow. I have also heard a rumor that a member of Obama’s cabinet will be present in NC for an announcement there. Not sure what that means and I’m also not sure about anywhere else…
Once again politics trumps policy. Obama’s just doling out goodies in the hopes that it will help with his reelection rather than doing what’s best for the nation. (I would love to be wrong, but the evidence so far is not comforting)
jimsf Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
how so? If there is need in all of these corridors, then you have to fund them according to that need right?
Marcus Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
And get nothing done at all. High Speed Rail is expensive. If you split your relatively limited resources between every application in order to please the most folks, nothing will actually get constructed. While feasibility studies are nice, what’s going to convince Americans to invest more more in rail is working systems, not pretty schematics.
jimsf Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Yes but there are benefits to upgrading 110 mph lines in certain corridors and its relatively cheap. YOu get a lot of bang for the buck. I want as much as possible for cali too, but those people pay taxes as well, and have valid needs and plans.
Daniel Krause Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Upgrades of slower intercity rail system should be funded with a different pot of money or at least a different classification with a given pot of money. If we as a nation set aside 10B a year for HSR, but HSR means all kinds of different things, then we really will have a difficult time achieving real HSR in a significant way. HSR should be 150mph and over. By muddying the waters, it shows a lack of clear purpose form the Feds. The interstate system was so successful because every highway has a clear set of design criteria.
Spokker Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
I wouldn’t be surprised. FDR did the same thing when it came to doling out New Deal funds.
I think that the $171M loan announced yesterday for the TBT is not connected to the funding we will here about on Thursday. The big deal on the $171M TBT loan is that it WAS approved and doesn’t have to be paid back until very much later when money is generated by the project as a whole.
In contrast, the money from the $8B that will be announced on Thursday is like California getting a Tax refund check to build HSR related construction. If I recall correctly, the $400M for the TBT trainbox was not a loan but actually ARRA stimulus money request. It doesn’t have to be paid back.
There is no way that LaHood could have made all of those comments a couple months back about how CA is well positioned to get a large chunk of the funds, and then turn around and completely shaft us…right?
Two major things have changed since LaHood’s comments about CA – 1. FL got their act together and funded their rail program, and 2. the political world changed a bit with the MA election. FL probably has probably gotten some of the funds that would have been allocated to CA, maybe away from the bay area or central valley money. Is it possible that they could have changed the funding formulas so quickly following the MA election to spread the funds out more evenly?
My guess is that they are going to focus on mostly on three “showcase systems” – Tampa-Orlando Airport, LA-Anaheim, and something in Chicago. But then what do I know…
one could argue that many of these regions have had well established rail for much longer and should be first in line for upgrades.
Reality Check Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
One could also argue it’s a HSR stimulus — not a upgrade-the-oldest-most-established-rail-lines stimulus.
One could also argue it’s a HSR stimulus — not a upgrade-the-oldest-most-established-rail-lines stimulus.
Or it could be that they are attempting to solve their hottest political emergency (as was brought into crystal clear focus by the Mass election) which is purely job creation now. Can they politically afford to park billions indefinitely, in a speculative project that may or may not come to be, for job creation (maybe) 2-3 years out? The risks on the California project are enormous.
Not the least of which is that anything less than a guarantee of $18 Billion in funding from the feds spells doom for CHSRA.
These areas that are incrementally upgrading existing rail represent miniscule risk, and most importantly can proceed immediately to job creation. California on the other hand is years away from any job creation even in its own best case scenario (ie: all the funding falls in place, and all the nimby’s go away, and they never see another lawsuit again, then we can start in late 2011).
And honestly, I don’t think engineering and consulting jobs for France, Spain, Japan and China rail experts is exactly the kind of immediate job creation that would sit kindly with American labor.
Too bad that Caltrain didn’t request Caltrain electrification and grade crossing improvements for Caltrain. Period. PCJPB has screwed the Peninsula once again. Even if they win HSR funding for Peninsula Caltrain purposes, they won’t be able to proceed without defining HSR needs first, and those will likely be held up in Peninsula political warfare for years, if not forever. Caltrain hitched their dingy to a sinking ship, and likely will be the biggest losers of all.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
And honestly, I don’t think engineering and consulting jobs for France, Spain, Japan and China rail experts is exactly the kind of immediate job creation that would sit kindly with American labor.
Which is why there were many speakers at the Palo Alto meeting from unions speaking out in favor for the project?
Observer Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Peter, you’d probably have to ask Robert why his invited guests came with the impression that jobs started in 2010.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Perhaps they understand that this recession is going to last a while, and that the real estate bubble-fueled construction boom of the 2000s isn’t coming back, so another source of jobs will be needed?
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Well, at least some people understand it. Others claiming to “observe” the situation don’t.
According to the a JAPAN TIMES , the HSR revolution will start in Florida which will JR Tokai views as a showcase for their technology. They think trains could be running in 4 or 5 years from now.
In their opinion, the next deserving projects are LA-LV, Texas and the Middle-West. They don’t mention CHSR.
The Japanese (like Alstom) have been disappointed with China: few actual sales and lots of technology “transferred”. So, they are now lobbying hard to get into the more ethical American market.
It is to be hoped, for California, that their lobbying didn’t influence the administration’s choice.
Robert,
I see you made an update with regards to knowing how much funding CA is going to get and you mentioned it would be in the same ballpark as FL. I don’t think that if fair. There is no way FL should get as much as they are requesting. It’s bull, because they cancelled the HSR in their state and have no backing funds, as we in CA have done. Florida’s touting they saved the ROW between highway lanes is complete BS. What are they going to put they anyways, a strip mall between the lanes? Bunch of hog wash!!
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Well, Florida requested about $2.5 billion. It’s expected they’ll get that amount, although I agree that there should be some consequence for their voters having defunded HSR back in 2004. As I said, while I can’t be specific, the amount CA will receive is in that ballpark.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/obama-will-announce-funding-for-high-speed-rail-in-tampa/1068518
According to this, no state is getting more than 50% of what they asked for, at least not in this round. It’s to be seen as a down-payment, instead.
Eric M Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
If we go by that logic and tie it with Roberts ballpark number, we should be receiving $2.4 Billion. Hopefully more
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
No comment. ;)
john Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
When does your media blackout end?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Midnight eastern – 9PM Pacific. As you can tell, it’s all I can do to hold back. I think people will be really happy with what we’re getting. Well, everyone except the deniers and critics.
Joey Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
5 hours? The suspense is killing me!
Also, does it say anything about the Transbay Terminal?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
You’ll have to wait and see.
Joey Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
You’re enjoying this, aren’t you… :D
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Not really! I wanna shout it to the world.
My answer to Eric M just now is actually more accurate than people may realize.
Me Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
So what does it mean if Transbay gets shafted?
A news article from Kansas says CA is going to get $2.34 billion. Lets see.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Got a link?
Eric M Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Oh, sorry. Here it is
Joey Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
So roughly half of what we asked for. This is also pretty consistent with Robert’s “ballpark of what Florida asked for,” though it seems hardly like something to get really excited about, considering that we always expected CA to get a fair chunk of the money.
Peter Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
I’m guessing Robert’s excited not necessarily about the amount, but also about what specific projects were funded.
Dan S. Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
I don’t know — after waiting so long to know exactly how this $8 billion is going to be spent, I must say I am really excited to hear the details… Interesting to see what kind of endorsement we get from Obama’s speech too.
Almost there… stay on target…
So, what technology is Florida going to go with. From what I saw on Wikipedia, the last they decided on technology-wise was the JetTrain. Would that be resurrected?
Please, God, let the Transbay JPA get a good chunk of their $400 million request … Pelosi and Feinstein surely have some influence in these things, I hope. I’ll be back at 9pm … thanks Robert!
Illinois getting $1.2 billion.
http://www.jg-tc.com/articles/2010/01/27/news/doc4b60eea7571ed852843947.txt
Ohio getting $400 million.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100127/NEWS01/301270098/Ohio+getting++400M+for+rail+service
California poised to get $2.34 billion.
http://www.kansascity.com/444/story/1712036.html
Joey Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Hate to break it to you, but Eric M already posted this one.
I am now really curious which California projects get funded. Wiki reads that California applied for the following:
$2 billion for high-speed train facilities at Los Angeles Union Station, Norwalk Station and the Anaheim Regional Transportation Intermodal Center; right-of-way acquisition, grade separations, utility relocation, environmental mitigation, earthwork, tunneling and track work between Los Angeles and Anaheim.
$1.28 billion for station improvements, grade separations, electrification and other work between San Jose and San Francisco;
$819.5 million for right-of-way acquisition, grade separations, utility relocation, environmental mitigation, earthwork and track between Bakersfield and Fresno;
$466 million for similar work between Fresno and Merced
No combination of the above works out to 2.34 Billion. However, if the $2 Billion for Union Station to Anaheim dropped out (inexplicitly), then the total would be pretty close; $2.565 Billion.
If the $171 million loan going to the TBT is not included….. then the total is closer…. $2.3945 Billion. But, this doesn’t make sense for a couple reasons. I am only speculating.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Here’s a hint: Not all of the total being reported is going to HSR. An overwhelming majority, yes, but not all.
All will be revealed in about 40 minutes.
2.34 Billion would be kind disappointing if Florida gets their full $2.3 Billion. I’m not going to believe anything until I see it tomorrow.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
I’m hearing Florida will get closer to $1 billion.
Brandi Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
It’s a shame I was hoping that the money would more highly reward true high speed rail projects instead of “high speed rail” projects. When is the $2.5 Billion from the FY 2010 budget going to be doled out?
What ever we get I do wonder if the deal with matching it with our bond funding is still a go?
Fresno Bee
http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/1799691.html
“The White House funding announcement does not specify where the money must be spent among the California corridors
…
Wednesday’s grant will help purchase rights-of-way, construct track, improve stations and complete environmental and engineering documents. The additional money for nonhigh-speed rail systems will include funds for constructing new tracks for service between San Diego and San Luis Obispo as well as constructing a crossover between Davis and Sacramento.”
Joey Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Well Surfliner upgrades would not be unwelcome…
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Fuck it, if they’re breaking the embargo, I’m good to go.
Joey Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Though I would have preferred for the money to be spend on real HSR.
Spokker Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
If the LOSSAN money is enough to make some real service improvements, I’d be more excited about that since it’s shit I actually use on a weekly basis.
Also I loved Obama’s quote about high speed rail in the SOTU.
If true, that will spur a feeding frenzy for access to the funds; San Francisco will want it for the insufficient design of the Transbay Terminal, SoCal for Union Station to Anaheim, and the Valley for the test track.
By the way, do we know WHO gets teh funds… as in, who is the designated recipient? If Caltrans…. and Arnold… well, they get the say.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:38 pm
No, we don’t, that’s one of the big open questions right now.
What about the 2.5 Billion that was given for this years budget? We may get a nice piece of that and that might be where we can put up the bond money to lock it in
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
January 27th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Exactly. That money has yet to be awarded.
Note that the announcement thread is up, so let’s move discussion over there:
http://www.cahsrblog.com/2010/01/breaking-news-ca-gets-2-35-billion-stimulus-for-hsr-and-other-passenger-rail/