HSR Doesn’t Have To Be Strange and Unfamiliar
Monterey residents like to tell a story that may or may not be true, but is certainly plausible. A man is working the night shift at the front desk of a hotel downtown, near Fisherman’s Wharf. He gets a call from a guest who is complaining about the loud dogs that are barking all night long. “Can’t you guys do something about that noise?” he asks. The man at the front desk responds “Sir, those are the sea lions. They’re what you came here to see.”
I actually like the sound of barking sea lions at night, which I can hear from my apartment a few blocks away. I’m used to it (as I am also used to the VERY loud bugle calls played over the PA system at the Presidio of Monterey just a block from where I live). I can see how it might be a bit surprising to someone, but they might as well complain about the sound of crashing waves or foghorns.
In short, experience matters. Most of us here on the blog have some personal experience on high speed trains. I’ve been a convert to HSR ever since a 2001 trip on Spain’s AVE system. So when we talk about HSR, we have some sort of experience in mind. We know what the trains look and sound like, we know how the grade separations look, we know that the routes integrate pretty well with the urban landscape.
Your average Californians, on the other hand, doesn’t have that experience. When they think of trains they think of loud and long freight trains or commuter trains. Those things are clearly an annoyance to people living nearby, and often pose a genuine safety risk, as Palo Alto understands well.
So when people hear about “high speed trains” they may not have any experience with actual bullet trains, and start flipping out, assuming that the CHSRA is planning to destroy neighborhoods with intrusive rail infrastructure that serves loud trains blowing horns and rumbling by at all hours of the night.
We can see this at work in the debate over using the Taylor Yard in LA:
One committee member, who asked to remain anonymous, said she generally supports the project so long as it does not increase the noise pollution in the area.
“Is there going to be noise?” she asked. “I’m right next door and I hear the horns of [Union Pacific Corporation] trains all night long.”
As a homeowner, she has fruitlessly tried for years to persuade Union Pacific to alter its operations to reduce the noise during late hours. As a private company protected by federal law, Authority representatives acknowledged that the Authority has no oversight on the rail companies that currently utilize Taylor Yard.
“Yes, there will be noise,” Ortman answered bluntly.
Ortman said the high-speed line does not utilize horns. Ortman said the amount of noise the line will create would not be known until the EIR is completed sometime in the middle of 2011. He said a “noise analysis” is included in the report.
A big issue for residents, especially after several high-profile rail accidents, is train safety for a system that is proposed to boast speeds of over 200-miles-per-hour. Ortman, assured committee members that by design, the project will be safe because it requires as little interference as possible. For example, although one proposal requires the line to share a right-of-way with Union Pacific freight trains, the line itself will have separate tracks and will be barricaded to prevent collisions.
A lot of that seems common-sense to us, but it’s not to a lot of the public. We also know that there are ways to build this train in a way that complements the park – the CHSRA has its own simulation showing how that can work and I hope they showed this at the meeting in LA.
More of that needs to happen. CHSRA simulations are very useful, especially for contentious sites. But it’s also worth using the magic of technology to bring the world of HSR to California. We can and should continuously show people some of the key details about how HSR works, how it looks, and how it sounds – that it’s very different from Metrolink and Union Pacific.
For example, this image from Sweden appeared in a recent article on CNN about “green trains”:

Obviously HSR on, say, the Peninsula would be wider. But we’ve also shown other examples of above-grade rail that work elegantly with their surroundings. From Italy:

Two from Berlin:


And from Lambeth Road in London:

None of these look like a Berlin Wall. All of them have become accepted parts of the urban landscape, in parts of the world where aesthetics matter every bit as much as in California, if not moreso (you can be sure that the Italian beach town shown above cares very much about how the rails look).
As the CHSRA works to build and rebuild support across the state for its designs, they would do well to show people as much as possible more than just lines on a map, and even more than the very good simulations from NC3D – they need to show examples and, ideally, video of actual, operating HSR. This one from Spain is still one of my favorites, not the least of which is because the landscape resembles California so well:
The more we can show things like this to Californians, the more successfully we can push back against the NIMBYs. Their opposition to HSR is rooted in their desire to preserve the economic and political arrangements in this state which benefit them immensely, even at the expense of others. We’ll never overcome that by showing images of how HSR actually works. But the more we can do to make HSR seem less strange and more familiar, the more success we’ll have at getting through the planning process with a minimum of fuss.

HSR in Cinque Terre is done beautifully, and yet runs right through the heart of five cities. I’ve seen it in person, and it’s a great example of HSR woven into a city’s fabric.
HSRforCali Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 7:04 am
Do you have any pictures?
Rose Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 10:02 am
The picture of Italy in this post is of Monterosso al Mare, one of the Cinque Terre towns.
Percentage of Americans who have passport is relatively low. And, if I were not mistaken, the Caribbeans is the top destination among American holiday-makers.
wu ming Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 5:55 am
percentage of californians, OTOH, is likely to be somewhat higher than americans as a whole, and i suspect especially higher to countries in europe and asia where HSR is more common.
wu ming Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 5:58 am
and of course tourists to california tend to include a significant # of asians and europeans; while their opinions matter little for getting the thing built, they’ll definitely be part of eventual ridership (think of the vacation packages one could sell).
Jathnael Taylor Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 7:33 am
when ever I go to Japan, the JR Rail pass is one of the first things I get a hold of.
there needs to be something like that for CAHSR.
Alon Levy Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 12:36 am
I suspect it’s mainly higher to Mexico.
For more on the subject of rail viaducts that work well in cities, check out Viaduct love in Berlin on Jarrett Walker’s Human Transit blog.
Perhaps Henry Higgins should have taught Eliza Doolittle to say “The train in Spain is faster than the plane.” (when you add in security and taxi rides to downtown, of course).
Another note.
I use to be Military, and I lived on the only artillery base in Germany (Vilseck/Grafenwoehr) as you would guess it was pretty loud when I lived there, but after a short time I didn’t even notice.
People get use to things, but it is the new things/change that most Americans are scared of.
On another note…I have posted this before but here is another example of elevated rail lines in an urban area.
This is just short of the Osaka Umeda station on the JR main line.
http://bit.ly/7LtAxq
http://bit.ly/79uwmS
I have ridden HSR in both Europe and Asia, and even though I am more Republican leaning that most of you all, I am still behind this project 110%.
In the news recently from Japan, the Japanese government continues to move forward with their plan to build a new high speed line from Tokyo to Osaka to replace the existing shinkansen. The new line will be the advanced maglev and is planned for 2025. It is also expected to travel up to 500 kilometers an hour. I wish California could get something like that done. I am not entirely pleased with a California HSR that will “only” go as fast a about 300 kph.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 9:14 am
354 km/h not fast enough for you, eh?
Having only travelled on the ICE 1, I can promise you that even 250 km/h is amazingly fast.
dejv Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 10:12 am
> the Japanese government continues to move forward with their plan to build a new high speed line from Tokyo to Osaka to replace the existing shinkansen.
The “new high speed line from Tokyo to Osaka” is Chuo Shinkansen, whose purpose is to free capacity on existing Tokaido Shinkansen (not to replace it) and provide geographic backup in case of earthquake damage.
PS: it sounds quite similarly to Radio Yerevan jokes. ;)
Alon Levy Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
The Japanese government is doing no such thing. JR Central, a private company, is building the Chuo Shinkansen, without any funds from the government, which does not believe the project to be viable. The main problems with the Tokaido Shinkansen are limited capacity, coming from the fact that it already runs 13 tph peak, and limited speed, coming from the fact that it was built in the 1960s for a top speed of 200 km/h.
Outstanding thread Robert. In San Jose/Gilroy, I call it the “fear of the unknown.” All residents are getting right now are “horror stories” of “Berlin Wall-like” structures, 90 ft. aerials with 220 mph trains wizzing by, cutting off downtown SJ from surrounding neighborhoods (as if a rail ROW didn’t already exist), freeway viaduct-like structures causing blight, etc. etc.. Once residents and businesses get a true feel, look of what will be coming, a lot of them will be more accepting of HSR and its design. Will some people STILL be against HSR, even with design’s in the likes of Italy or The UK? Of course, but you know what…oh well! This is about all of California and its future, not just them.
This post brought to you by someone who’s lived across the street from freeway construction (I-680), under the flight path of SJC, and one-mile away from UPRR in South SJ.
Not even the pictures in Berlin look like a Berlin Wall. ;)
That photo from Lambeth Road in London isn’t (strictly speaking) a high speed rail line– it’s simply a normal elevated train line with a high speed train on it. The dedicated high speed line wasn’t introduced until the move to St Pancras– unfortunately it doesn’t help make the point in this post because the area behind KX/StP is pretty empty until HS1 goes into a tunnel. Still, looks nice– but I can’t find a picture of the quite stylish tunnel entrance.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:09 am
The idea is that an elevated line can be done tastefully and blend in with the surroundings. It doesn’t have to be a high speed line.
Bianca Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:10 am
skiddie, the point is that well-designed elevated tracks can, and already do, fit in perfectly well in places with high property values that care about aesthetics. And on the peninsula, HSR trains will run at lower speeds and share the tracks with normal commuter trains, so the “high speed train on a normal elevated track” is exactly on point.
synonymouse Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:27 am
These European references are totally disengenuous. We have a correct example of what the hsr infrastructure will look like and sound like – BART in Daly and on to SFO.
Let’s run thru the simple-minded logic. Yes, simple-minded, but that’s how California machine politics work. BART = Bechtel and Bechtel=hsr, ergo BART=hsr. Countless billions have been blown by Bechtel on BART projects and the best they have been able to come up with is ugly and noisy.
It is preposterous to insist that they can or will do any better with the hsr. Call me a NIMBY or worse but don’t insult my or anyone else’s intelligence by claiming that Bechtel will change its ways.
It would be wise in the long run to admit that the hsr will have persistent, non-mitigatable environmental problems with vibration and noise. The best solution is to relegate the hsr to existing freeway corridors which already suffer from these downsides.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Didn’t we already discuss the noise likely to be created by HSR? And you were shut down with facts? To refresh your memory:
Caltrain: Locomotives currently limited to 90 db at 30m. Horns minimum 110 db at 30m.
HSR: Currently limited to 90 db at ANY speed above 45 mph, not going to EVER to attain that at speeds at or below 125 mph. Not going to sound horns because grade-separated (therefore no horn noise)
Raising the same issue over and over does not help make your position anything other than false.
synonymouse Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
The horn noise issue is a red herring. A temporary problem whereas the hsr infrastructure constitutes a permanent monstrosity.
If you annul the hsr-Caltrain shotgun marriage and the demand for unrealistic speeds that came with it adequate grade separation for Caltrain can be accomplished by road underpasses and some road closures. Alternately you could do BART ring the bay with a subway for those who want to pay the extra as in Berkeley.
With Caltrain you accommodate the UP with electric freight locomotives. With BART you leave the UP on the surface with an occasional freight horn. Eventually Peninsula freight train service will disappear. Meantime the hsr fends for its sorry dumbed-down, detoured self, as in removed to the 101 corridor.
Bianca Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
If you undo the Caltrain-HSR pooling of resources, where will Caltrain get the money to carry out grade separation and electrification? Caltrain is basically broke.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Horn noise is not a red herring. It is a major issue. I don’t like the horn noise. Neighbors don’t like the horn noise (or the noise from the diesel locomotives).
As Bianca said, Caltrain (and the local governments) are basically broke. They are not able to pay for grade separation, without which the horn noise will not go away. They will also not be able to pay for tunnelling BART all the way up the Peninsula. VTA can’t afford the $2 billion for 2.5 miles of tunnel for BART. Where is the money going to come from for 40 miles worth of tunnels?
You make no sense, and never have. And never will.
Tony D. Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Rodent,
Perhaps you should consider moving to Redding or Paso Robles; the Bay Area is just not for you.
AndyDuncan Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
“The best solution is to relegate the hsr to existing freeway corridors which already suffer from these downsides.”
Ignoring the completely irrational rest of your comment, putting the trains somewhere that is “pre blighted” as opposed to somewhere that is filled with rich people, is exactly the kind of thing that will get you slapped with an environmental injustice lawsuit. And you’ll lose.
Bianca Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Not to mention that for HSR to work, it has to be easy for people without cars to reach it, which is exactly the opposite of a freeway corridor.
synonymouse Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
That’s idiotic. If there are no stations on the Peninsula between San Jose and SFO, the alignment is immaterial. Except that the envionmental problems are eliminated. Plus if Caltrain has a service disruption the hsr would not be affected
I wonder if anybody on this site has ever walked over a freeway, even one with only six lanes. The noise level is downright unbelievable, reminiscent of Phil Spector’s famous “wall of sound” The sound of the hsr would be indistinguishable against that din. And just exactly where is that “ënvironmental injustice lawsuit” when the political machine adds lanes to said 101. Could it be that the locals actually support the degraded environment because they use the freeway? Besides a significant part of 101 passes thru industrial and commercial areas zoned for noise.
And here’s a question for hsr insiders and apologists. Are you prepared to guarantee that there will be no warning horns, whistles, chimes, etc. of or for approaching trains that are either stopping at the stations or passing thru express at high speeds? With elevated stations especially any such sounds, including announcemnts, will be audible to the surrounding neighborhoods. And how much more often would these noises occur with many more trains per hour? Therein lies one of the great appeals of tunnelling and why BART may very well in the end win over the hearts and minds of the Peninsula.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
With 4 track stations, with two passing tracks in the middle, there is no reason to warn passengers on the platforms of trains passing through.
Also, there is an HSR station planned between San Jose and Millbrae. Just because they haven’t picked out the exact location doesn’t mean there won’t be one.
spokker Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avJCZQstwx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUlCvf1q1rE
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
And those were diesel trains, louder than HSR will be.
Tony D. Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
The sad thing is that those steam trains seem to get out of the station just as fast as Caltrain. By the way, those HST were awesome for being diesel!
AndyDuncan Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Youtube videos are a poor indicator of sound levels, as the recordings are never going to be standardized, but they can give an idea of the type of sound.
But to be clear, people are bitching about how this:
Metrolink and Amtrak at 90mph
Caltrain Baby Bullet at ?mph
Will be replaced with this:
E5 Shinkansen at 150mph
E5 Shinkansen at 224mph
spokker Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I wasn’t posting those videos to demonstrate how loud or quiet the trains are. Just that there weren’t any announcements or horns or signals. Somehow the people on the platform were able to cope.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
That overpowering sound you speak of about freeways is yet another reason not to place HSR in the freeway medians: No one wants to be on or near the platform. Possibly one of the reasons why hardly anyone rides VTA light rail.
In addition to the turns being too tight, lack of median, and lack of access to stations. Freeway alignments are just dumb.
jimsf Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
This is a good one for trainsblowing through stations with no horns, announcemnts or other.
Joey Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
Though to be fair, those trains aren’t passing the platform tracks.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
and they won’t be passing platform tracks on the Peninsula at most stations either.
Joey Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
At most stations yes, but the question remains of what will happen to express trains at Millbrae and Redwood City/Palo Alto/Mountain View, where space is somewhat constrained so it might not make sense to construct a 6 track station…
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 12:53 am
They’ll pass the platforms without stopping like they do all over the world including many places in the US?
By the way, that first picture is an Alstom Coradia Duplex, of the exact type that seems to be on top of Caltrain’s shopping list.
Peter Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
According to wikipedia, the Coradia can go up to 125 mph. Maybe Caltrain does have its eye on service faster than 90 mph…
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 15th, 2010 at 11:57 pm
It won’t be available in 6 or 7 years when they are sending out requests for proposals.
Peter Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
Why do you say that?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 17th, 2010 at 1:03 am
For the same reason they weren’t able to go out and buy new F40s when they needed more locomotives for Baby Bullet service and for the same reason they won’t be able to get any GG1s when they electrify. They won’t be able to get AEM7s or HHP8s either. They might be able to get ALP48s or whatever Bombardier is building in 2018. . .assuming Bombardier is still around in 2018 along with Alstom
speaking of comparisons
eurostar as prop
this is still the part Im waiting for. mmmm and mmm
adirondacker12800 Reply:
January 16th, 2010 at 9:03 am
airline food?
It’s going to be better than Amcafe but airline food?
Here in the Bay Area there is another example of an elevated rail line and freeway that has not resulted in “blight” and seems pretty well intergrated into a well-established desirable community – the Highway 24/BART line through Rockridge. Yes it is pretty ugly, but somehow Rockridge thrives. I work about a half block from the structure near Telegraph in Oakland and I rarely even notice any noise – BART trains make a not-too-loud swoosh as they pass. Nice homes back up to the elevated structure all the way between Telegraph and College Ave, and there is even a park/playground under the structure at Claremont, with a daylighted portion of Temescal Creek. At College Ave, the elevated tracks/higway seem to have a minimal impact on the commercial district – there are nice restaurants, the Rockridge Market Hall and a school within a block,a nd the BART station is certainly an asset.
Yes it would be even better if the design were not the standard off-the shelf Caltrans elevated freeway, and even better without a six lane freeway at all. But I think Rockridge owes its success as a neighborhood to the elevated BART line passing through.
I like the POV of this video at 300kh its so quiet and smooth, but you can see the countryside fly by and the last part you see passing the cars on the freeway… its like they are going backwards in time. It looks very much like a trip down the valley. amazing. hurry up and get this thing done.