Surprise, Surprise: MNG Papers Call for End to HSR Project
One of the most consistent editorial opponents of high speed rail in California has been the MNG newspapers. They opposed Prop 1A, they’ve called HSR a boondoggle on occasions too numerous to count. So it should surprise nobody to learn they’ve taken the new cost estimates as a chance to renew their attack on HSR:
LAST YEAR, WHEN voters were presented with Proposition 1A, the $9.9 billion rail bond, proponents of a high-speed rail system estimated the fare from the Bay Area to Los Angeles would be $55. Now that the bond measure has passed, the forecast price of a ticket is $105.
The increase is not surprising given that the cost estimates for building the high-speed rail system have also risen dramatically to $42.6 billion, which also is no surprise.
The $55 fare was competitive with airline prices. But a $105 ticket does not compare well with Southwest Airlines’ $59 fares from the Bay Area to Los Angeles.
First, I strongly doubt that Prop 1A passed because the estimated fare was $55. People understood in 2008 that oil prices meant that we needed an alternative to oil-based travel. Second, MNG repeats the fallacy that airfares will remain that low in the future – Southwest’s fuel hedges, locked in when oil was at $50 or $60 a barrel, begin expiring next year, and their prices will be higher. Deutsche Bank has estimated oil prices will hit $175/bbl by 2017. But then, MNG editorialists have never really accepted the reality of peak oil. As we see in this editorial, they assume that conditions in 2009 will last indefinitely, which is a foolish assumption.
It is becoming more apparent that predictions about construction costs, ridership, fares and revenues are highly unreliable.
This is is a dishonest statement. They assume that because things change as more information is learned, that suddenly the predictions are “unreliable” and so is the system. That’s just not so. MNG newspapers have lost a lot of money and circulation in recent years. Does that make their newspapers unreliable?
As the cost of construction rises, fares will go up, ridership will decrease and revenues are likely to drop below estimates.
The cost of construction doesn’t necessarily have to rise significantly from this point. The only think that would cause such an increase is unexpected inflation, which would be out of CHSRA’s control; or a decision to build things like tunnels on the Peninsula, which would only partly be in CHSRA’s control.
More importantly, there’s not necessarily a link between the cost of construction and fares. Nobody has asked the interstate highway system to repay the over $400 billion it cost to build. We don’t pay tolls or gas taxes to cover that cost. Why shouldn’t we subsidize the construction of HSR lines the same way we did the interstates, and have fares go to paying operations and seeding the construction of new routes?
Predictions that a rail system will be operationally profitable are little more that wishful thinking. If estimates of costs, fares and ridership are grossly inaccurate after one year in which there was virtually no inflation, how can anyone have confidence of the accuracy of forecasts 25 years from now?
Yet another dishonest statement. (Seriously, aren’t journalists supposed to believe in accuracy and credibility?) The cost estimate changed not because of inflation between 2008 and 2009, but because the federal government mandated that costs be calculated in “year of expenditure” dollars, which assuming higher inflation over the next 10 years produced the $42.9 billion estimate. If inflation remains flat over the next 10 years, then we might actually see a final cost of $34 billion or so after all.
The high-speed rail system was flawed from the start. California does not have population densities close to those in Japan and Europe, which have successful high-speed rail systems.
As we have repeatedly proved, Spain and California have very similar population densities – and last time I checked, not only was Spain in Europe, but it also has a very successful HSR system.
Also, California has a poor record of accomplishing large construction projects anywhere near original estimates or completion forecasts.
This is untrue, since there are plenty of projects being built on-time and on-budget, such as the Metro Gold Line. There are indeed projects that weren’t built on-time or on-budget, such as the east span of the Bay Bridge or the BART to SFO extension, but that was largely due to design changes made during the project construction, which doesn’t necessarily have to happen with HSR.
Unfortunately, a majority of voters in November 2008 approved Prop. 1A, authorizing the sale of $9 billion in bonds for high-speed rail. Backers of the rail system believe they can appeal to the federal government and private investors to attract the additional $33.6 billion needed (by the latest estimates) to complete the project.
It is unlikely the federal government will supply a major percentage of what is needed to build the rail system. Private investors are even less likely to risk money on a project where the cost and ridership forecasts have changed so dramatically for the worse in just one year.
MNG is clearly upset with their readers for having voted for Prop 1A, so they choose to assume the federal government won’t provide the major percentage of what we need. Perhaps they won’t, but there’s every reason to believe they will. The $8 billion HSR stimulus and ongoing $2.5 billion for HSR are just the start – if we can get a stable, sustainable, and long-term funding source for HSR in the next transportation bill, then the federal government should definitely be able to provide the funding we need.
Of course, we can expect MNG to keep writing these kinds of nonsense editorials up to the time the HSR system opens from SF to LA, and they’ll probably call it a boondoggle after it hits its ridership goals and generates operating surpluses. It’s a shame that a Bay Area media conglomerate like them chooses to fill its editorial pages with such misinformation, but that’s why this blog exists – to counter that with the truth.

Is this newspaper even worth mentioning, let alone writing a whole arctile about? To me, it’s just background noise filled with false accusations and unintelligent conclusions.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Concur!
I’ll add all those weekly peninsula rags that keep getting cited… they too don’t merit attention.
That’s one of my favorite lines about HSR in Cali:
Actually, California has a higher population density (234.4/sq mi) than Europe (181/sq mi). But those population density measures are meaningless because HSR doesn’t go through all parts of Europe, and it won’t go through all parts of CA, just the parts where the people are.
BruceMcF Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Given that its more than misleading, but it is factually wrong, it would seem appropriate for each supporter of California HSR to write to the editor of each MNG Newspaper (which are? not from cali, have no idea myself), simply stating the factual error and requesting a correction.
Should be snail mail by those who can do it, since getting a mailbag full of corrections to the same factual error has more impact than a wave of email, but y’all might also set up a “send an email” site to allow supporters to send an email request correction of the factual error.
Many papers that think nothing of printing the least persuasive, analytically confused argument conceivable shy at printing facts they know to be mistaken. And for the paper mail, there will be somebody there who has to open and read the letters, and ask someone the question face to face, “what about this?”.
No.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 6:53 am
I’ll speculate that the allegiance of a journalist or writer is based upon how many readers they get… i.e. attention. The more the better, regardless of the ‘type’ of attention they get.
Internet page views of articles provided online are probably used as some measure to estimate the value of particular writers.
“LAST YEAR…voters were presented with Proposition 1A, the $9.9 billion rail bond…the cost estimates for building the high-speed rail system have also risen dramatically to $42.6 billion”
It’s pretty funny how they managed to make it look like a $9.9 billion project rose to $42.6 billion.
I work in Palo Alto, and it kills me to pick up the Palo Alto post and see them letting Diana Diamond ( a fiery COLUMNIST) writing front-page articles pitched as news stories about HSR. I’ve emailed them about it — and of course, no response. Why defend yourself when you know you’ve got nothing to back you up?
though Im completely over the topic and I know that we will never actually have high speed rail since californians are not capable of actually making it happen, I’ll still mention that the topic also made curbedsf
As pissed as I am about the new fare strategy and as much as I argued that the Mercury News article was, at least, defensible, this is a piece of crap. I can’t find the article–hopefully it was an editorial because a news story should never contain the word “unfortunately,” especially regarding something that people voted for. Perhaps it took someone way too mad about this price increase to make me realize that, relatively speaking, I am not that mad about it.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 9:08 am
I screwed up the link in the post – it’s fixed now. MNG Editorial
and again – those airline baggage charges: “Excess Baggage: Effective June 17, 2009, your 3rd through 9th bag or item will incur a charge of $50 per piece, and any bag or item thereafter will be $110 per piece”
that could eat up savings in a hurry.
And where are they getting the idea that there will be “a” ticket price. for hsr. there isn’t going to be just one ticket price. do the people write articles in newspapers have anything in the way of critical thinking skills or do they just make stuff up as they go?
TomW Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I am surprised they find a higher charge for the 10th item and beyond is needed. Maybe they should become a cargo airline if people really want to fly with 10+ suitcases.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
It discourages the courier companies, the ones that promise to get your package from here to there the same day.
O/T: Robert, do you want a bookmark icon for this blog? I can easily make one or explain how it’s done.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 9:06 am
I was JUST thinking that. Any help you can give would be welcome.
Andrew Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 6:08 am
So all you need to do is make a 16×16 pixel image, save it as “favicon.ico” (that’s MS Windows icon format, though GIF or PNG will work), and put it in the root directory of the site.
I made one using the banner image for this site, I could e-mail it to you if you want.
“Unfortunately, a majority of voters in November 2008 approved Prop. 1A”
Yeah, it sucks how the will of the people isn’t sometimes what you personally want. It would be a much better system if the country was just run how I want it.
teardown?nope
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Well “nope” in that the document seems to be out of date or out of context, or both. It’s not like TBJPA has any incentive to avoid stirring up opposition to the beale/main alternative. I’d love to see the full set of drawings from parsons.
One thing I find interesting is the two-phase approach mentioned in the slides, 6-tracks now, 6 more in phase 2.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Its not gonna happen. Not in this town, in this lifetime. forget it.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:23 am
I just don’t want you to get your hopes up.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Saying it doesn’t make it so.
Though I must admit, I’ve forgotten what your actual gripe is with a beale/main station? Why is that so antithetical to your desire to have HSR in downtown SF? It’s next door to the TTC. If they build 6 platforms for HSR and leave the DTX and the TTC basement for Caltrain, then the TTC will have exactly what it was designed to have: caltrain in the basement.
If they build the HSR and caltrain station next door, then TTC could have muni and BART in the basement. Quite frankly I think Muni and BART are better matches for the TTC than HSR and Caltrain.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I support the tbt location because the city supports it. I’m not at all fond of outside agencies coming into town and dictating things. We don’t put up with the feds doing it so why would we put up with some two bit agency like chsra doing it.
Also they are completely disregarding the fact that these alternative locations have been studied and ruled out as well as the fact that the city has rules regulations laws plans etc for that neighborhood and will not allow chsra to bully its way into the area and usurp those plans.
chsra does not dictate things to the city and with the mayor, the supes, the planning commision, and the rest of city hall as well as our big players like pelosi etc, on board with tbt its very unlikely that this game of kopp’s is going to play out for much longer. and we all know that all this is, is a power play by kopp and san franciscans simply don’t tolerate that sort of thing. I know my city. If hsr want into sf, then it will go where the city wants it. thats the way things work around here. The only way that would change is if chsra were to kick down some huge amount of money to buy the city’s favor, and even then, they’d still have to contend with objections of local residents. and sf is notorious for its local activism. Once you get a small group of people who own a piece of real estate here, they become fierce. like pit bulls. chsra is no match for sf. If newsom, daly and pelosi all want it in tbt. itll be there or it wont be anywhere.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
“I support the tbt location because the city supports it. I’m not at all fond of outside agencies coming into town and dictating things.”
Whether it’s CHSRA, Caltrain, the easter bunny, or the disembodied ghost of James Mason telling you the TTC design is fatally flawed doesn’t change the fact that the design is fatally flawed.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
its not fatally flawed. thats being a little overly dramatic. It may not be perfect but its not fatal. And lets be real, 12tph for hsr isn’t realistic unless they plan to just run lots of empty trains.
and by the time the demand reaches that point, there will be plenty of ways to manage the traffic including not having every train term at tbt. ( and there’s no reason for every train to term at tbt anyway.
and just what kind of hsr station does one think they can put under beale or main street considering there wouldn’t be room for anything but a couple of tracks and platforms. certainly no place to put an entire station structure above ground or underground. all you end up with is another montgomery street bart station. There is no place to put a station over there.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Read the link you posted. Or read the draft Alternatives Analysis from CHSRA. They’re not putting it under Beale (the actual option the TBJPA rejected) or Main, they’re putting it on the space between beale and main. The whole four city blocks. 12 platform tracks underground underneath whatever new development they want to build on top. Their diagram even shows parking and street-level Muni. SF gets to keep their redevelopment dreams for the station area, and HSR and Caltrain get more than enough platform tracks to serve them for the next 50+ years. It really makes more sense than trying to squeeze things under the TBT just because the TBT is already there.
Joey Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Did you even look at the presentation? The station would be in the block between Beale and Main, allowing for 12 platform tracks. Plus you get wider curves (and one less compared to the existing TBT plan).
And be careful with your trains-per-hour numbers. HSR will be lower than that (I’d guess 6tph max), but don’t forget that CalTrain intends to run 10tph in the near future.
Joey Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
AndyDuncan beat me to it…
BruceMcF Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
12tph is a side-issue … the transport issue is whether it can support more than four HSR trains at five minute intervals without bottlenecking Caltrain. And, yes, not being able to act as a stub terminal for both HSR and Caltrain without imposing bottlenecks on either one or the other is a fatal flaw if you are “supporting” in the sense of “but not with any of our own money, kthx”, and expecting state and federal funds to be thrown at a broken design.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
There is only one empty lot where you could put a train station here and even that one is already accounted for in the development plans. and even if you did put it there it would be even further from connecting transit/bart than the current plan.
if you were to try to squeeze say, and underground stacked station under the street further north where it meets market, well then what to you get ? a narrow dark underground station that is 60 feet wide and how many trains can you get into that?
Joey Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
The plan would involve demolishing two buildings south of the lot you have marked. And yes, it would definitely conflict with existing development plans, but I’ll take a functional station over those any day of the week.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
you may take it but its not up to you and there isn’t going to be the demolition of any high rise buildings in san francisco. that map also shows tracks intruding into (on updated google maps) two other existing high rises to the north and west.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Where do you put the trains from Cloverdale, Stockton and Sacramento in the 6 tracks under the bus station?
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
the goal here is to stick with the plan and be expediant. some of the things – the pipe dreams that are discussed on this blog – and I totally understand the wishes and imaginings of utopian solutions – are just that – wishes and imaginings. I am far more cynical – or far more based in reality and devoid of what was once youthful idealism to entertain such perfect solutions. because I know that bart, for instance is not going to go into the tbt. i know that an operational second tube is at least 50 years away and I know that even the hsr results, a much as I support it getting done, are going to fall short of the hype. I know that. My goal is as they are saying about health care, “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good” or whatever it is they are saying today…..
There are political realities that will result in a system that is less than perfect so you’d better get over it now or you’re gonna be bitter later.
just like 10 years from now only a handful of cali’s are gonna be driving those much ballyhooed electric cars. coming from a news junkie/political junky household – from the 60 70s 80s 90s and today, I m here to tell you, the sooner you get real about what isn’t going to happen in your lifetime the sooner you’ll thwart disappointment.
Now get a haircut and get off my lawn.;-)
Joey Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Actually, 12 platform tracks with wide turns seems a lot more attractive than the current design. And building an underground train station doesn’t preclude the possibility of development above it, though structural elements have to be integrated into the design of the station, and it would be nice to get a little bit of natural light on the platforms. Still, after seeing the documents, the whole Beale St. terminal thing seems a lot more attractive to me.
synonymouse Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
San Francisco will be very fortunate indeed to get any kind of a TBT rail station. Historically it has been a very tough sell with the power elite – Quentin Kopp, Willie Brown, and BART have all opposed it in the past. It will need some powerful supporters, like Feinstein, to keep it on track and funded. BART, in particular, has a track record of stealing Caltrain’s funding lunch.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
fine this gives me an idea then. even better. a ballot measure would say that should the chsra decide not to use tbt and instead want to purchase adjacent land for the use of a high speed rail station they can purchase said land for the retail price of 5 billion dollars plus the current amount of the city’s deficit in exchange for the rights to build and this amount shall be exclusive of any construction costs with all costs of construction of tunnels and stations to be born by the rail authority.
that works for me.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Ill email it to my distric supe who is a tbt player anyway.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
oh yeah and also “all work shall be performed by local union labor and upon completion all current and future san francisco residents shall be entitled to lifetime 15 discount on all available fares.”
Joey Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
wtf
GE to build high speed trains for america.
Joey Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Well, that’s a little bit of a stretch, considering that right now it’s just locomotives for AMTRAK. This could represent a small step in a larger move toward the high-speed passenger rail industry though. Only time will tell.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:18 am
they said speeds up to 125, so i guess they mean those “emerging” corridors like he midwest?
jim Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
No. The RFP is for electric locomotives. They’re for regionals on the NEC (and LD passing through).
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
is there a pic of these new locos anywhere?
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
The article says “the new locomotives from GE would also reduce fuel consumption and emissions.” Electric locomotives don’t consume fuel and have almost no emissions. They are announcing diesel locomotives. GE is a world leader in diesel locomotives.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Do they even know how to build modern electric trains? All their trains are heavy enough to be FRA-compatible, even export models.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
well I guess they may have to re tool their horse buggy division but considering they helped with that whole atom bomb thing, I’m sure they can figure out an electric loco.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Take out the diesel engine, it’s fuel tank, it’s cooling system, the generator and the controls, you are left with an electric locomotive. They could probably do it.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 8:40 am
I doubt it. Alstom’s diesel trains are much lighter. For example, Israel Railways runs Prima locomotives, which weigh 90 tons. Other non-US models weigh 84-120 tons, with the only above-90 models running six-axle trains to reduce axle loads.
On the other hand, EMD has some diesel trains weighing about 90 tons, or 120 with 6 axles. The unfortunate part is that only European countries get those lighter trains. Countries that don’t insist on low axle loads, like Israel and Egypt, get tanks.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Only thing I can find on Alstom’s web site is for 90 ton electric Prima locomotives. Some digging around in Wikipedia finds that most of the Prima derivatives are joyous collections of world class suppliers.Things like EMD engines, GE generators and Alstom IGBTs. The more powerful ones are heavier, the less powerful ones lighter. A locomotive producing 4200 HP/3.1 MW and carrying twice as much fuel as one producing 3200HP/2.4MW is going to weigh more. The few I did the arithmetic on come out to 24KW per tonne give or take a few watts.
I see two problems;
1) MNG management doesn’t care for HSR.
2) MNG use their newspapers to carry this agenda at the expense of accurate reporting and servicing their customers who clearly voted for and wanted HSR.
I’m sure before caltrain is electrified, MNG will be asking for a bailout of their newspapers, claiming each provides a critical community service.
It is really hilarious to see these little Citizen Kane’s push their unpopular agenda while their readership drops.
Since my comment was deleted I will repost. Here is a link. I’m just sayin.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/la-me-cap17-2009dec17,0,5941984.column
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Given that we need a 2/3rds supermajorty to pass a tax to pay for something, but only a 50% majority to pass a bond measure, it shouldn’t be surprising that bonds are overused and the state is in financial difficulties.
The CAHSR project is not the only project funded with bonds in this state, most projects are. The solution isn’t to stop projects, it’s to bring the threshold required to pass a bond in line with the threshold to pass a tax. Whether that means raising the bond threshold to a 2/3rds supermajority or lowering the tax threshold is a separate discussion. What needs to happen is that the laws that inevitably create a bond-funding situation need to be changed.
You won’t hear me argue with this portion of the article you linked, however:
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Skelton is a moderate who refuses to admit the need for specific and targeted tax increases to ease the borrowing situation.
It’s not HSR’s fault that the state has borrowed money for uses that should be funded through taxes. Big infrastructure like HSR should be built with bonds. But Arnold Schwarzenegger has used bonds to do what taxes and fees used to do.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
The problem predates the Governator. The bond situation is another fiscal present from Prop 13 the gift that keeps on giving.
jimsf Reply:
December 17th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Bonds should only be used for big ticket infrastructure items, the idea being that, they are an investment and that investment in the state will pay future economic dividends that will exceed the cost of repayment. But that means using them for big projects only, not every little freeway add on or local transit system, or whatever. those things should be funded by state and local taxes.
and really people its time for caltrans to start turning our major state freeways into tollways.
the 5, the 99, the 10, ….the 405 (collective gasp and pearl clutching from west side residents)
well at least the 5 and the 10. and turn them into expressways for trucks and higher speed car travel with upgraded maintenance.
and what about the fact that all the toll bridges are up north but the money collected from those bridges goes to caltrans which in turn, spends all the money down south? hmmmm.
adjust prop 13. convert to a state turnpike system, and for gods sake instead of giving tax breaks to families with kids, we should be charging families with kids more, to pay for their kids education.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 8:27 am
It’s illegal to toll Interstates – blame the good roads movement for banning tolls in the 1920s. Non-Interstate roads in the national highway system can be tolled only if there’s a continuous alternative route on the national highway system that remains toll-free; in other words, it’s illegal to toll the 101.
The only exceptions are roads built with local money, before the Interstate system – for example, the George Washington Bridge was designated as part of I-95 twenty years after construction, so it can be and is tolled. Some of the LA freeways may be tollable, but I’m not sure. But the 5 is not tollable.
As an aside, I find it a little weird that a San Franciscan would say “the 5″ and “the 10.” (I’m a New Yorker so I shouldn’t say this either… my rule is to refer to roads using the local designation, so LA- and Phoenix-area roads get “the,” and other roads don’t. The GWB is part of I-95, and Palo Alto NIMBYs want HSR to go on 101; the Green Line runs on the 110, and the 405 is a parking lot for most of the day.)
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am
The “the” thing is indeed weird. I grew up in the bay area and now live in LA. You take 880 to 680 to 580 to I-5, then take the 5 down to the 405 to the 105 to the 605. Who knows why.
And god help you if you use the word “hella” south of Bakersfield (I like that rule).
jimsf Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
well, that is a hella good rule I must say.
Tornadoes28 Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Oh yes, those evil children and those evil families. They are nothing but leeches. Geez. Get a grip. We want to have an educated society and that is the responsibility of everyone. How stupid to say that families with children should be taxed more. So all other American’s should not have to pay for the education of our young people???? What an insane notion.
jimsf Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
They should be taxed more because they use up more resources.
jimsf Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
I use no services except the sidewalk and muni.
I have 5 lightbulbs y house and use 12 dollars a month worth of pg and e, so I have pratically no carbon footprint.
I get nothing except muni, for the taxes I pay. yet I get no deductionsm have no tax shelters and pay over 1/3 of my paycheck everyweek in taxes.
meanwhile, suburban families are sucking up environmental and financial resources like a lush in a margarita bar.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Yeah but you want someone who is semi-literate to change your diapers when the time comes.
jimsf Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
In fact tornadoes, wanna here something funny. after years of voting in favor of more and more taxation for education and california’s other loser money pit programs, californians thanked my by determining that my life and rights were not valuable enough to them to grant me equal rights. Of course that doesn’t stop them from reaching one hand into my back pocket every week, its just that they are stabbing me in the back with the other hand.
I can tell you it will be a cold day in hell before I vote yes to fund anything or any program or expenditure in this state ever, especially education, unless it pertains directly to transit funding.
Once I receive my rights, we can talk.
ah back from the salt mines. and its my fri woo hoo. I did hear an interesting new bit tonight that could be interpreted in more than one way I suppose but apparently the airlines are having a hard time filling seats this holiday season and have had to slash fares and suspend all those fancy fees they recently added ( prior to chasing away all their customers) meanwhile I couldn’t help but notice while trying to send folks to and fro, that my trains are selling or sold out already from coast to coast. Maybe that will teach the airlines a lesson finally.
A corporate mouth piece for a rich oil money family it is !!! The sick fact is that Bill Clinton..A Democrate made these people possible…Money can buy lots of stupid hometown papers ..then brainwash those “hometown” types …And thats what they are doing…far beyond HSR…and thaty is the purpose
even the papers in sf are going more to the right.
and then what we don’t spend on trying to educated them, we then spend on incarcerating them. so we pay, and then we pay some more.