Monday Open Thread
Getting some things squared away before my winter break begins. Posting the next two weeks will be a bit light, as I’ll be taking the Coast Starlight up to Washington State and back. I hope to include a trip on Seattle’s new light rail line, which opened in July (and a link to Sea-Tac Airport that opened on Saturday), in the trip.
Before I head north, some California HSR-related items:
- Last week the San Diego Union-Tribune published a vitrolic, baseless attack on HSR. I felt our response to the MNG editorial that appeared around the same time sufficed as a response to the SDUT nonsense. But Lynn Schenk, former member of Congress from San Diego and member of the CHSRA board, authored her own response. I have to wonder if she wanted to do an op-ed and the right-wing wackos at the Union-Tribune would only give her a letter to the editor. Which would be pretty weak, since the U-T called the Authority “deceitful.”
- Should the NUMMI auto plant at Fremont be converted into a factory to produce trainsets for HSR? Quentin Kopp will be floating that idea to the rest of the CHSRA board at next month’s meeting.
- Usually HSR is being cast as the villain somehow upending neighborhoods and local plans. Except now it’s being cited by a group supported by the San Francisco Giants who are suing to block a possible Oakland A’s stadium from being considered for the Diridon Station area. They claim that HSR would already bring a lot of traffic to the area, which would be exacerbated by moving the A’s to the area. Much of this is part of the Giants’ desire to preserve the San José “market” from encroachment by the A’s, but it seems to me that HSR is actually an argument FOR the Diridon/Arena site.
- Over in Europe, Nicolas Sarkozy chewed out Guillaume Pépy, head of SNCF and chairman of Eurostar, for the delays that have plagued the cross-channel HSR link ever since trains suddenly broke down on Friday evening shortly after entering the channel tunnel. Eurostar is to resume service today. While the breakdown is high-profile, it’s worth noting that winter weather is causing travel “chaos” across the UK, whether it’s rail, roads, or airplanes.
Finally, over the break I’ll be doing some more work on the blog. We finally got all the comments back, so I’ll be transferring them over in the coming days – all posts from March 2008 to the present here on the new blog will have the comments imported from the old site. Also, WordPress 2.9 has been released, and I’ll be looking into the upgrade, to ensure that it won’t break some of the plugins we use that make this site work.
Don’t worry about the UT. No one reads it. No one cares about it. If it’s still in business in a year or two we’ll all be surprised. It was a terrible paper when I moved to SD 15 years ago, and is a terrible paper still. In all my years here I have never heard anyone discuss a UT editorial.
Brandon from San Diego Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:33 am
I concur for the most part.
VoiceofSanDiego is growing in popularity and acceptance. More opinions and more balanced and more reasoned.
Ironically, the UT editors seem increasingly like wacko’s.
Have a good Starlight trip… hope you upgraded to first and don’t forget the wine and cheese tastings in the pacific parlour car after lunch!
I’m still fighting the good fight over at http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=14948#add_comments
Man, those guys never give up.
Also, I’m confused. I was just in Seattle a couple months ago, and I thought the Seattle light rail opened already?
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:51 am
It opened in July, with an extension to the airport that opened on Saturday.
Thanks for fighting the good fight! I only have a limited patience for arguing with those folks.
NUMMI for building HSR trainsets? Now that sounds like a winner! And I don’t know about you guys and gals, but taking a train to the ballpark would sure beat driving.
Bobierto Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:12 am
Hmmm, if they built the trains in Fremont … how would they get to the tracks? I’m naive on how this stuff works … but, um, isn’t Fremont on the rejected Pacheco Pass route? I’m don’t usually sign on to conspiracy theories but is this a back door to getting that second route built?
Tony D. Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:10 am
Hmmm…umm…Got Altamont high-speed overlay?
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:26 am
The same way they’ll get them to the LA-Anaheim section if that opens before the pacheco pass is done, and the same way they’ll get them to CA if the cars are built, as adirondacker believes is a good idea, in one of the existing alstom or kawasaki plants back east: Put the train cars on semi trailers and haul them here on the freeway.
That’s also how they’ll get from the ports to the tracks if the first couple trainsets come on barges from overseas.
They probably won’t drag them down freight tracks, that would risk damaging the bogies due to curve radii issues and generally poor track maintenance. If they bring them down the freight lines, I would expect it would be on top of a flatbed railcar.
Tony Daniels mentioned the “lorry” solution to transporting the trains between a central valley factory and the LA-Anaheim section in the August board meeting.
Rafael Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:50 pm
All they’d need to do is bring the southern portion of UPRR’s Milpitas line into a sufficiently good state of repair to permit a diesel locomotive to drag the trains to SJ Diridon as a special transport. The logistics aren’t the issue here.
They can float the idea about building railroad cars in California all they want. The accountants at the manufacturers are going to want to know why a new plant is needed when they already have North American plants. Especially for a medium sized order they can wedge in between the big orders at the existing plants.
well the guc said today – his focus is only jobs jobs jobs for the coming year. so if kopp suggests this to the boobengrabber, then he may be likely to listen. The politicians are going to be scrambling to create jobs in cali in 2010. it has to be priority one.
Rafael Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:40 am
In a severe recession, politicians can and should take on public debt to create demand for serviced from private companies. However, it is those private companies that need to generate the jobs.
Given that CHSRA has just recommended changing the fare strategy from 50% of airfare to 83%, with an associated reduction in fleet size, we are now talking about an initial order volume of $3 billion. That’s based on certain assumptions on unit price. The Bay Area would probably be one of the most expensive places in the nation to build trains, plus it may anyhow prove easier to secure the requisite federal funding for constructing the line if the trainsets are built in a state that won’t get HSR service. So we’ll see about that NUMMI plant.
hmmm what if we had custom made, home grown california high speed rail cars designed and built right here in cali? with unique cali design features, like the surfboard and bike racks, sushi /oxygen bar, media center, the hottest interior color schemes, etc. That would be very cool. I think we should build em here, from scratch, our own way.
PeakVT Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:25 am
Building from scratch would be okay if the US wasn’t 25+ behind other countries. As it stands best we could hope for is forcing a partnership that would result in a technology transfer, like the Chinese do so often. But it would take federal level muscle to get that kind of agreement. So I think the CHSRA is stuck using foreign vendors.
@ jimsf -
The whole point of choosing steel wheels was keeping technology risk to a minimum. The state presents enough other headaches, including CEQA and a fiscal emergency that just won’t go away.
Also, HSR isn’t based on unpowered railcars but on fully integrated trainsets with special bogies, traction and control systems, advanced aerodynamics etc. If California designers get do anything at all, it will be the layout, materials etc. of the interior and the color scheme.
- surfboard/bike racks: thumbs down, there’s not nearly enough dwell time to load and unload significant numbers of bulky baggage items. If you want to go surf, ride Amtrak’s standard-speed trains, drive or hop on a plane. Consider investing in a folding bicycle and/or renting a surfboard instead.
- oxygen bar: no idea what that even is. I get mine from the air, it’s free.
- sushi bar: fair enough, the cafe car can put some California rolls on the menu.
- media center: if by that you mean a separate area with a plasma TV and a Wii, the answer is probably no. Ticket prices are based on buns in seats, at 83% of airfare any “spare” room will likely have to be used for business traveler facilities like bookable segregated conference rooms. For leisure travelers, just make sure there’s a telecom partner who can deliver reliable broadband internet access and then rely on passengers to bring their own mobile consumer electronics devices. This is infrastructure, so focus on reliability of core services first. What good is a plasma TV if the train gets stuck as soon as there’s the wrong kind of snowflake on the ground? Priorities, please.
Btw: SNCF does have small play areas for kids on its ultra-comfy standard-speed (i.e. ~100mph) Corail Teoz long-distance trains, but not on the TGVs. Those feature “espaces familles”, segregated compartments reserved for families with small children that need to sleep or conversely, make some noise. They also operate iDTGV services that split the train into a library-quiet Zen zone and a yak-yak Zap zone. Passengers can pick their seats and even switch en route if there’s spare capacity. Very convenient for families with children of different ages with different needs.
As a general rule, don’t fall into the trap of re-inventing the wheel. Lots of other operators have cut their teeth on optimizing their HSR service concepts and associated interiors, which are different from those on standard speed rolling stock. Learn from them rather than presume everything will be completely unique in California. For the first batch of trains, aping what others have already successfully implemented is more than good enough.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:34 am
Surfboards wouldn’t be a problem if they only allowed boards under 7ft or so (no longboarders, sweet), whatever the height of the baggage area of the passenger cars are. Eurostar runs ski trains and you can bring your skis or snowboard. Admittedly I don’t know how big of a hassle it is to board that special ski train.
In reality, however, it’s not likely to be much of an issue given the predominantly inland route. It’s something to worry about more for any future coastal route, where people actually might take the train to go surf.
AndyDuncan Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 am
Apparently you can take a surfboard on a TGV. They don’t specify a maximum length.
Andrew Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Surfing seems to be the main draw for Amtrak’s Lompoc/Surf station. Some people probably drive out there to catch the train, but it can’t be too many. There’s virtually nothing around except beach and a bit of farmland.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 am
Well I was joking a little (although oxygen bars do exists0 but bikes etc, as well as WM seating (mobility) lower level seating (if using double deck) space for the oxygen tanks, etc for the older folks who use those, there’s just a lot of things that need to be accommodated. BART has short dwell times and still allows bikes. and current amtrak trains have very short dwell times at the smaller stations as well, open, close, go. so its do able. and any ca hsr, is gonna have to hvae bike space. itll be mandated, if not by sac, then by the groups who will demand it, oh and they will believe me. those bike people are a piece of work, they’ll block the tracks to get their way. better to just plan for it.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
How much are they going to charge for the excess baggage? My suitcase fits in the overhead racks on Amfleet cars. So do foldable bikes. If they start taking out seats so people who are too stupid to use mass transit can haul along their bike I wanna know how much they are going to be charged for using the space that could otherwise be earning revenue.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
cali wants to encourage bike ue – theres a huge ongoing fuss on caltrain about not enough bike space the bikers are demanding more – they already get and entire car, but they want garunteed seats too. – all at no charge. further, amtrak california routes accept bikes and boords, strollers etc, at no charge, on all “california cars” which were designed for it. Its likely that Sacramento will insist the hsr trains be designed for it.
there is no charge on amtrak for two carry ons, a personal item and three checked bags per person including kids so a family of four can, for no charge bring a total of 24 pieces.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
connecting thruway buses also accept bikes throughout california.
Rafael Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Fine, buy a folding bike and there will be plenty of room.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Last time I looked at Caltrain’s rules for bicycle carriage, the restrictions are for weekday mornings northbound and weekday evenings southbound. That tells me the people who are agitating for more bike space are the people who prefer to bicycle instead of using MUNI. Or too cheap or too stupid.
Andre Peretti Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:32 pm
iDTGV is a private company, currently 100% owned by the SNCF. Being a private company was meant to allow it to escape the oppressing rule of the unions and be more competitive. And competitive it is. You can do Paris-Marseille (470 miles) for €19. Tickets can only be bought online, as is the case with low-cost airlines.
When the new company was created the unions went on strike, arguing that it was the first step towards total privatization. The first idTGV train could not leave the station as union members sat on the tracks until it was announced as cancelled for “technical reasons”.
An agreement was later found by which the new company can only run one train a day to any destination. iDTGV employees are still considered traitors and treated as such by regular SNCF staff.
If more of these trains were allowed to run it would be a severe blow to Ryanair’s Paris-Marseille link. Thus, anti-union Ryanair owes much to railway unions.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:37 pm
union yes! solidarity forever.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:33 pm
There’s no solidarity in France, where the union membership rate is actually lower than in the US. What does exist there is union power politics – the union exists for its members, and the rest of the working class can go to hell.
jimsf Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 12:12 am
well then they should have unionized. thats the point
Alon Levy Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 12:55 am
They did; they demanded outrageous concessions, helping drive the companies into the ground.
The countries where socialism is the most successful today, such as Sweden and Denmark, are precisely those where the socialists acted responsibly. Brad DeLong argues that the political reason Sweden was the first country to recover from the Depression, circa 1934, was that its social democrats abandoned revolution early, so they were more focused on social spending; in contrast, French socialists did nothing to stem the Depression, believing it would be good to increase the contradictions of society so that capitalism would collapse, so France only recovered after the war.
In terms of union activism, the unions of Scandinavia and Germany are working class-wide movements (though this is less true for Germany now). They fight for better working conditions for everyone, instead of for special benefits just for their members; in contrast, in the US, the UAW agreed to stop fighting for universal health care in the 1940s in exchange for health benefits provided by the automakers. In addition, the Scandinavian and German unions accept wage restraint in bad times, and only go on strike when they don’t get raises in times of economic growth.
jimsf Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 1:08 am
we never go on strike or rarely. in our history, at least at amtrak. I support the right to unionize, and the right to bring the country to a screeching halt with a general strike if needed. had we done it in the 80s or 90s, we would have the mess we have today.
jimsf Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 1:16 am
This is what I know. I worked like a slave for the first 15 years of my working life and wound up with nothing. no money, no job on a whim, no healthcare, no pension, no sick days, no vacations no living wage and no respect. then I wised up and go my first union jobs and now for the last 15 years and moved firmly into the middle class. sick days, vacation, a legal contract, a living wage, job protections, safe workplace, a good and secure pension, extreme job stability, and unlimited opportunity to move around the company. Over my dead body would I take a non union job.
And you can’t blame the unions for americans lack of understanding or their willingness to believe the lies of of the capitalist right. Just look how uniformed they are about everything else. People don’t unionize because they are intimidated by their employers, threatened even. like my friend who works for macys. They are terrified to even say the word.
I’m not sure who all posts here but Im guess its a combination of inexperience idealistic university students, and other with a background in the professions of architect, engineer, etc.
anybody here a waiter by trade? a butcher? any garbage men around? bus driver?
Its no wonder I get so much grief everytime I make a point.
Joey Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 1:32 am
And yet you’re the one who talks about moving to the Philippines so that you can have servants working on starvation wages…
Alon Levy Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 1:58 am
Jim, have you ever stopped thinking why waiters and butchers get trampled so much? It’s not just the capitalist right; the AFL-CIO has done jack shit to help organize workers in service industries. Some of the SEIU-affiliated unions, like HERE, do that, but the rest of the union movement scorns them. HERE has also done more than any other union to integrate other marginalized groups, organizing immigrants and working with Cleve Jones on gay-union solidarity. But the national SEIU offices are actually waging war against HERE over HERE’s organizing strategies.
On paper, US unions at least try to push for making unionization easier and for social spending like unemployment benefits or universal health care. But the old manufacturing and public sector unions stopped doing that seriously in the 1940s and 50s. They struck bargains with the automakers and Beth Steel and the railroads and cut the rest of the working class loose. They got their pensions and health benefits and everyone who wasn’t a union member got peanuts for Social Security.
Now that those old companies are dying, the same unions don’t accept cuts or wage restraint – the New York public sector unions are chasing 4% annual raises in the middle of a depression, which would be unheard of in any country where unions care about more than their member. Even business leaders who’re union friendly are puzzled. Detroit’s new mayor, a businessman whose employees are mostly unionized, is trying to explain to the city unions that if they don’t take a 10% cut, the city will go bankrupt and their entire contracts will be killed; so far the unions haven’t budged.
Alon Levy Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 1:59 am
Sorry for the grammar fail. “Have you ever stopped thinking” in my above comment should read “Have you ever stopped and thought” or a similar idiom.
you might have a ski bus connection from RIV to Big Bear or PMD to Mammoth. The good thing about ainrts over planes is that the train can leave the station without waiting for everyone to stow their crap in the overhead bins and get seatbelted in.
Im sure if we have to use foreign builder, they can still give us custom interiors with no prob.
Hi,
As I am from the UK & live in the Southampton area, thought I would comment on the Eurostar situation …. I think the big issue is the time it took for the management to get people off the trains & that they kept sending trains into the tunnel after trains had broken down & lack of communication … some people were in the tunnels 7/8 hours & then had to sit in the trains in the countryside for 5/6 hours …. you can understand why the press are making a lot of it … not good for HSR …
But look today … roads closed, airports shut … Gatwick shut for 7 hours – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237561/Gatwick-forced-close-fresh-wave-snow-catches-forecasters-commuters-surprise.html
That same report states that 2000 – yes 2000 motorists were stranded on the ring road around Basingstoke – I mean we are not talking about a 100 mile road, it is about 15-20 … so why wasn’t it gritted properly …. ten miles from where I live, people slept in a church … cause the road got blocked!!
What I trying to say is that there were numerous other problems caused by the snow & ice …. yet it will be Eurostar which gets the most publicity …. maybe because we expect the roads to be blocked & airports closed.
Mark
I don’t much car for the bike folks. I don’t know about la and ny, but up here they are militant and obnoxious. They think that they are single handedly, saving the planet, and they call people who use cars “cagers” and they refue to obey traffic laws, they ride on the sidewalk, very fast, and terrorize pedestrians, they blow through intersections, and they key cars, and bang on your car hood if they feel slighted. Its completely out of contr0l. then every last friday of the month they do critical mass and shu down the main thoughoughfares to the brdges at 5 oclok rush hour on a friday. they circle in major intersections and block traffic in all directions. and they hoot and holler like banshees while they do it, its been going on for at least a decade and no one can stop it.
so I know they will demand bikes on hsr.
Im sure if they tried this in ny or la they’d be used as target practice.
Hi,
I did put a comment on here about Eurostar & the UK transport issue …. but it seems to have been deleted …. just to say that the coverage here in the UK about Eurostar is fairly bad – but closed airports or 2000 people stuck on a 10 mile ring road around Basingstoke hardly gets a mention or the people sleeping in a church @ Alton – no mention … do the press have something against HSR in UK?
Mark
this link shows you the problems in the UK – in the actual paper they quoted the Eurostar problem more … http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237561/Gatwick-forced-close-fresh-wave-snow-catches-forecasters-commuters-surprise.html
Mark
Hi,
This is the 3rd attempt to post to this thread!! Everything seems to disappear.
I am from the UK & live in Southampton – the headlines have been pretty bad here about Eurostar. Some people were stuck in the trains for 17 hours ….. & Eurostar kept sending trains into the tunnels even after they knew ones had broken down ….
Mark
Rafael Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Sorry Mark, WordPress has some anti-spam logic that we have as yet no fathomed. Your comments were held for administrator approval.
No argument on Eurostar’s poor preparations for the winter weather, including a more conservative operating model. Looks like the business side of the house just wanted to maximize revenue by crossing its fingers. The company needs to put its tractors cars into a climatic wind tunnel at the earliest opportunity to get to the bottom of the fluffy snow problem. Installing air filters with a finer mesh is a stopgap solution to one single aspect of reliability in winter conditions, they need to quantify the operating envelope in a more comprehensive manner.
On top of that, they need to formulate and train their staff on rapid evacuation strategies for trains that are stranded in the tunnel for any reason. Aircraft manufacturers have to conduct expensive evacuation drills, Eurostar needs to do the same.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Delays in the snow are an inconvenience not an emergency.
It’s an emergency when there is a threat to health, safety or life. Remind us how many people died in these incidents. How many were injured? It’s really really awful that they had to sit on warm trains after the soft drinks ran out. Warm trains… If was a cold train that might have been an emergency. At freezing temperatures, the conditions outside the tunnel, it would take a long time for the train to get.. I know this would require calling up the National Guard in California…. chilly.
There have been three fires in the tunnel. There were no deaths. Injures in one. That tells me that the they have emergency evacuation procedures well in hand. A stalled train is not an emergency unless there’s speeding train bearing down on it.
They used both rescue locomotives. They pressed automobile shuttle trains into service. They used Operation Stack, which I’m sure pissed off everybody who was planning on using the A20 but in lousy winter weather using a high speed limited access highway isn’t particularly wise. .. the horror of it all people had to go hours without a Coke or a cuppa. And I’m sure someone chipped a fingernail transferring to the shuttle train. . . Rent the movie ‘Auntie Mame’ Towards the end Gloria Upson has a monologue you might want to watch.
Mark Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:57 am
Hi,
Not sure what Operation Stack has to do with Eurostar …. for me it was the lack of communication … also being stuck underground without power – or emergency power can not have been much fun … the issue is not that it was cold, but that it was far to hot … I don’t think they had much evacuation procedures in place – cause stuck in a tunnel for 7-8 hours doesn’t suggest that??
Mark
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
There’s a difference be being inconvenienced and an emergency. Extraordinary weather frequently causes extraordinary delays.
They ran out of drinks. That’s inconvenient. Some people had to take off their sweaters when it got warm. That’s inconvenient. The Bromley Times interviewed one of their readers who was stuck on the train. He had this to say. “It was just incredibly boring” Being bored is inconvenient. Being delayed is inconvenient, it’s not an emergency.
It gets very cold up here in the mountains. People die of hypothermia. It snows a lot up here in the mountains. Slippery roads frequently cause fatal automobile accidents. It snows at the airports too. Ice and snow make airplanes fall out of the sky catastrophically. Being being warm is a good thing. Being delayed warm on a train with emergency lighting is an inconvenience. It took some people 18 hours to complete their trip. They completed it without a stop at a hospital. They completed it instead of being redirected to a morgue. It was inconvenient.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:23 am
….you don’t even have to rent the movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj7i88LQ9DE
I’m sure being on a train without any soft drinks was, as Gloria would put, ghastly…
Ok ….
I do wander what the headlines will be tomorrow – when Gatwick was closed for 7/8 hours, same as Luton & Manchester – Easyjet cancelled loads of flights …. 2000 people had to be rescued from around Basingstoke – after the snow fell – but will that get much press …. I suspect not!!
Mark
Hey jim, please remember that not all cyclists are the same. There is certainly a population of self-righteous and militant riders in town, but they are by far outnumbered by a quieter and more mundane group. You could easily say that car drivers refuse to obey traffic laws, terrorize pedestrians and blow through intersections.
Anyway, I moved from Milan to Paris, with my bike, on the TGV. A bike (in a box like on an airplane) and about 6 bags and boxes. It wasn’t easy, but I did manage. It helped a lot that I was traveling between terminus’. However, TGV and I don’t think the other high-speed systems allow full-size non-boxed bikes on board. I have taken standard trains in Italy, France, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands and the Czech Republic with my full-size bike. Austria was most impressive with a porter to load luggage or other bikes from the platform to a luggage car. A platform attendant directed me where to stand to match up with the luggage car and the porter would swoop up my bike. The dwell times were actually pretty brief. I don’t think bikes interfered with the train departure anywhere, and I had a fully loaded bike with food, clothing, books, and camping gear. The one exception was actually a very confusing boarding (an unannounced transfer, actually) in the Czech Republic, in driving rain, with lots of language barrier, on the ground (no platform) trying to get on a very old train with a steep staircase and narrow entry.
While other systems don’t allow bike on their trains, they also have a much more redundant system. I could see bicycle transport as something that California does offer due to political pressure, California culture, and lack of alternatives. Given how much crap American lug around with them, the porter & luggage car model would be my favorite! However, I really expect the TGV model (no un-boxed bikes).
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Well I have already solved the problem and its simple. we know that we have to have a 2:40 travel time Transbay to LAUS but we also know that while this time is required it isn’t required of every train.
we also know that it makes sense to offer a variety of service levels I propose 3. True Express, Limiteds, and Locals.
The true express trains will be business and first only. carry on only, and be marketed mainly to the business crowd. No bikes or anything else allowed.
from transbay I suggest only 4 dep per hour for starters. using a memory schedule.
the “on the hour” trains are the premium trains
then you run a local on the 15 and the 45
and a limited on the 30
700am Express (sfc-lax)
715am Local (all stops, baggage, bikes surfboards, stollers, hat boxes whatever)
730am Limited ( limiteds means sfc-sjc-fno-lax-ana only- bikes and oversized items on non rush
hour departures only)
745am Local
800am Express
etc
problem solved. the travel times on the locals don’t matter because no one is going the full length anyway – this is the train for all the schleppers with all their crap going from san jose to bakersfield to see grandma for christmas with all the presents.
This way everyone gets a train to their liking. No is made to feel left out.
The last thing Ill stand for is a trainloads of richy uppity mucks trying to claim its all for them only.
Its the train of the people for the people and by the people.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 am
They are going to have checked bags?
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:07 am
people will want to check bags. let me tell you. this just isnt europe, you can’t believe it but everyday this week Ive had people checking tiny little, I mean shaving kit sized bags, from sf to stockton. – a two hour trip…. same for modesto. people will check anything and everything they can. purses, hefty bags, cardboard boxes with duct tape and the bottom falling out. they’ll check prohibited items too if they can lie and get a way with it, toaster ovens, george foreman grills, assorted wierd liquidy stuff the leaks all over the place… you can’t even imagine….
Joey Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:40 am
I don’t know … the increased dwell times required for checked baggage don’t really seem worth it to me. Besides, not having to deal with the hassle of baggage checking/claiming is part of the convenience of high speed rail. Besides, the fact that HSR is so much easier than flying will mean that people will be planning shorter trips, in other words, packing lighter.
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
if only it worked that way. Im telling I work directly with the rail traveling public of california and I know who they are, what they do, what they want and how they behave. I understand what some of you think “should be” but they are going to throw a fit and refuse to ride if they can’t bring all their crap with them – In fact many of the use rail BECAUSE they can bring all that crap that the airlines won’t allow. you just don’t have any idea. and HSR will have to answer to the demands of the customers or they will drive instead.
Chris Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Jim, you work with Amtrak, not HSR. There are going to be things that will have to change with HSR, one of which will be checked bags. Checked bags simply don’t work with HSR. It’s not worth the hassle, and even if it’s tried, it won’t last. People who want to check bags can still ride Amtrak if they want.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Conventional Amtrak service between cities served by HSR is going to be about as popular and profitable as the existing stagecoach services between those cities.
jimsf Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 12:14 am
they are going to have a fit if they can’t check bags. period. youll see.
Chris Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Greyhound then. Either way, you want to take the kitchen sink with you, you go via car or bus, or possibly plane. HSR has no time for baggage-checking, and if we start doing that, we might as well prepare for failure. The only possible exception could be people getting on at a terminal station and going all the way to a terminal station. Loading and unloading bags at intermediate stations is a complete non-starter.
Jon Coupal (yes president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayer’s association), has written this outstanding artilce titled:
Wheels Coming Off High Speed Rail (I can on wish this to be true)
http://foxandhoundsdaily.com/blog/jon-coupal/6129-wheels-coming-off-high-speed-rail
Tony D. Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
John Coupal/HJTA, and “outstanding article” = Oxymoron! Not even worth reading.
Robert Cruickshank Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:40 pm
This disclaimer from Coupal is kind of important:
I’ve been thinking for a while about what kind of food service there would be on CAHSR. There might not even be much of a use for a dedicated cafe car, the Shinkansen only features some vending machines in a few cars and a girl walking up and down the isles every once in a while with a snack cart. Since most passengers are only on the train for a maximum of three hours, this is perfectly adequate.
When I worked at the de Young Museum in SF, I was impressed at how the museum cafe exclusively served food produced no more than 100 miles away. The length of the CAHSR system will be much more than 100 miles, but if it does end up having a cafe car, I think it would be great if it were a showcase for California produce. It could feature California-grown fruits and vegetables, wines, fish, meats and cheeses, Peet’s Coffee, etc.
I feel like a bit of a liberal yuppie scumbag by posting this, but I’m going it anyway.
HSRforCali Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
I like the idea of a California-grown cafe car. It’d be a great way to help show people what’s grown and produced in their own state. Imagine eating an apple while passing the farm it was grown in right outside your window.
Andrew Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:28 pm
And a great show case for out-of-state and international travelers as well.
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:55 pm
the food on the existing cali trains has been carefully tailored over the years by caltrans, via sales numbers and customer surveys to reflect what people want. ccjpa people have different tastes than san joa people etc. but all food service will be tailored to what sells and will be responsive to passenger requests.
Bo doubt that certain light and fresh menu items will contain locally produced products as that acts a marketing tool to justify the menu price.
at the same time there will be doritos and chips ahoy too.
full meal service on china will be a must for first class passengers on express trains as their premium ticket prices will warrant it and those tickets will in part subsidize the cheaper tickets. and the service in general.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
They won’t have time for the full dining car experience in 2:45. Not unless you want to take table reservations on the platform in LA and SF.
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Its takes 30 minutes to eat a meal. why not?
train departs at noon,
cocktails served at 1215
apps at 1230,
salad at 1245
entree at 1
pull plates at 130
offer coffee and desert at 145
finish coffee and desert at 215.
freshen up at 230
train arrives in la at 245p
( my two careers are waiter and railroad so Im pretty sure I know this one)
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm
oh and just like the must bring all baggage issue, the passengers LOVE to eat on the train. its like the highlight of their lives. a huge thrill. dont ask me why but it is.
remember, we’re in america now.this will be a uniquely american style service. americans won’t go for whatever it is they do in japan. they hate that.
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:41 pm
more like train departs at noon. they aren’t settled into their seats until 12:15 when they ask the car attendant when the next seating is. He checks and finds out that people who made table reservation for 12:15 have just ordered drinks. The drinks are served at 12:20 and orders for appetizers taken at 12:25. They get microwaved and served at 12:30. By this time they have decided they want the Thai chicken. That gets nuked and is served at 12:40. They linger over dessert menu and order the triple chocolate cake with a side of espresso. They vacate the tabel at 1:30. The next batch of customer’s orders were taken by the car attendant and are served promptly at 1:40. ( Gotta exchange the linens etc) and don’t vacate the table until 2:30. The people in third seating decide that they would much rather eat in real restaurant when they arrive at 2:45. The train gets turned around and since it departs at 3:05 no one wants lunch and it’s too early for dinner. They haul an empty car back to the origin. The staff admires the view.
It’s a repeat on the 6:05 departure but since it’s dinner not lunch the people who would be in the second seating eat at their seats instead. They haul an empty car back to the origin on the 9:05. Since they changed crews with the 6:05 departure the crew entertains itself with the free internet access, there’s not much to see out the window in the middle of the night.
In the mean time the lounge car has been doing a thriving business since people who are on the train for an hour an half can manage it without a full meal being served. All that staff and all that empty car will be breathtakingly expense. It ain’t gonna be Amtrak where the dining cars are subsidized. … they can have the dining car close to the baggage car, the dining car staff can sling luggage during the 90 second dwell!
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
no no, in first class everything is served at your seat.
late gotta run
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Wow I have got to visit the east coast _ I had no idea how fancy we are over there….nice
adirondacker12800 Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Keep in mind that hoi polloi are still riding Amfleet cars. And that they don’t get to go to the Club Acela. … and that most passengers on the NEC aren’t on Amtrak.
Andrew Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
I agree with adirondacker, a restaurant car would be a total waste. What I had in mind was a cafe car, or a cafe section within a car, similar to the setup they have on the Surfliner. I wasn’t ruling out brand-name snack food either, just saying that the tea and coffee, beer and wine, and the ingredients for the pre-packed salads, sandwiches and baked goods etc. should be all California-produced.
The price of first-class tickets will be more than justified by wider seats, LCD entertainment panels, private conference areas, complimentary drink service, etc.
jimsf Reply:
December 24th, 2009 at 12:09 am
okay let me clarify. Im not suggesting a full dining car. Only lounges on trains. the exception would be with first class, or premier class, where you get your meal on china at your seat in the first class car. You don’t have to go anywhere. thats how its done on the eurostar and acela
acela first
Eurostar First Class – Enjoy a fine gourmet experience
Savour the delights of an unhurried 3 course meal and fine wine with a choice of tempting European dishes served at your convenience in a relaxed, yet professional manner. Special dietary meals can be ordered that include kosher, halal and gluten free and a welcome glass of champagne is guaranteed to kick off your journey in fine style. Disabled passengers can enjoy all the benefits of Eurostar first class at a fraction of the cost with special fares for wheelchair users and companions. Designated spaces offer plenty of space and easy access. Eurostar is renowned for its commitment to disabled passengers with full access at all stations and entry into all business lounge”
Leisure Select” occupies the same spacious first class coaches as Business Premier, with roomy seats, power points, newspapers and magazines. However, it is aimed at travellers who want to relax, not work, with at seat service designed to maximise the enjoyment of the journey. Travellers are offered champagne, a choice of meal, and have the opportunity to read, play games or meet like-minded traveller
@Rafael
Oxygen bar? Pah, it needs a hookah bar!
Oh wait, that would never fly under state law. T_T
jimsf Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:58 pm
I vote for a martini bar. ;-) Cosmos all around please! forget the trip to LA, lets just ride the train back n forth and see where we wind up when we fall off.
hookah bar? Now I know what induced dreams of berms and Palmdale xanadus.
jimsf Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:01 am
They are actually going to change the name from Palmdale to Xanadu. ( and elect olivia newton john as mayor)
you have to offer lots of upgraded amenities in first class including at seat meals on china, in order to get the high tickets prices and you have to get those high fares to subsidize the discount fares thats how it works. what do you have against at seat meal service? you don’t have to eat it , you can ride in coach if you want. but Im not riding without a first class ticket and a meal. a nice one.